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Atheists Come And See: The Most Powerful Argument For The Existence Of God - Religion (2) - Nairaland

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Re: Atheists Come And See: The Most Powerful Argument For The Existence Of God by UyiIredia(m): 8:31pm On Jul 10, 2016
I'm off for tonight. Will be back tomorrow.
Re: Atheists Come And See: The Most Powerful Argument For The Existence Of God by ValentineMary(m): 8:31pm On Jul 10, 2016
UyiIredia:


No one is discounting the brain here. To be conscious you need the brain. Consciousness can be defined as a state of awareness of self and one's environs. As defined, that is not physical. So I find the argument that consciosuness is not immaterial to be disingenuous. I still think consciousness is spiritual. Yes.
Did u read the line about amoeba? is it aware of it's environment as a result of cell receptors or not?
Re: Atheists Come And See: The Most Powerful Argument For The Existence Of God by Nobody: 8:33pm On Jul 10, 2016
UyiIredia:
It's actually one of the arguments I posted earlier on this thread

https://www.nairaland.com/2353987/three-arguments-gods-existence

The argument from consciousness: Consciousness is not a physical thing. It's also called awareness and that's not physical. It's not a physical thing that you can observe and measure but is the means by which you observe and measure. It's critical to my argument that consciousness be understood as something immaterial, which it actually is, going by its definition. If you think about it all knowledge stems from consciousness because to truly know anything you must be aware of it. You cannot know what you are not aware of.

Now if atheists are right then there should be no consciousness at all. In a purely physical world consciousness would be the anathema, something strange. But there is consciousness and therefore the atheist is not correct. Consciousness being immaterial cannot be explained by physical means. It did not evolve since evolution applies to physical beings. It does not spontaenously emerge because emergence typically deals with how complex PHYSICAL systems arise from simpler precursors. Atheism being materialistic in nature has nothing to offer to explain mental awareness. But the theist believing in an eternal conscious God has a means to explain consciousness. And that my friends wraps up my argument.

Cc thehomer Seun cloudgoddess Blaqsmith dalaman ichommy HardMirror johnydon22 onetrack joseph1013 Kay17 plaetton Davien ValentineMary lepasharon reallest freecocoa K9blunt Amusaopeyemi
Let's Take Out Ur Brain And See If U Will Still Be Conscious??[/size]

11 Likes

Re: Atheists Come And See: The Most Powerful Argument For The Existence Of God by HardMirror(m): 8:42pm On Jul 10, 2016
UyiIredia:


Didn't you read the OP. I said consciousness can't evolve because it isn't physical. So no self-evolved organism should be conscious.
When you are hungry, is it not consciousness that makes you aware?
When you wake up in the morning, you become conscious of your self and your environment. Why? Because your senses are active. Consciousness is physical. Our brain, receptors (nose, eyes, ears, skin, tongue), hormones are all that makes us conscious.

1 Like

Re: Atheists Come And See: The Most Powerful Argument For The Existence Of God by vincentico(m): 8:42pm On Jul 10, 2016
4evergod2:



Most of these guys have a registered assumption that science is limitless and the scientists themselves have exclusively perfect knowledge of everything but even with all this knowledge they still fall ill and die young or old. They cannot even explain why we degenerate physically as the years go by and ultimately die.

.
we degenerate physically because we breathe in oxygen
this oxygen keeping us alive is the very thing killing us
the cells in our bodies undergo oxidation

5 Likes

Re: Atheists Come And See: The Most Powerful Argument For The Existence Of God by 4evergod2: 8:44pm On Jul 10, 2016
Lilbrown007:

[size=20pt]Let's Take Out Ur Brain And See If U Will Still Be Conscious??[/size]

Doing what you just posted above translates to death but even science has documented cases of people who were clinically dead and were brought back to life medically and they narrated things that happened in the hospital while they were dead and they were spot on accurate.

When I say dead I mean totally dead with no brain activity and eyes closed yer they could see the room and the people in it and even their own dead body from an elevated position. How was this possible?

The fact is that many lf these scientists whose theories many of you are still running around with have abandoned these theories and run to God and you are still on what they have left behind as they realised how foolish they were.

1 Like

Re: Atheists Come And See: The Most Powerful Argument For The Existence Of God by HardMirror(m): 8:47pm On Jul 10, 2016
UyiIredia:


consciousness /ˈkɒnʃəsnɪs/
noun
1. the state of being aware of and responsive to one's
surroundings.

Does that look like a physical thing? Physical things have extension in space by definition. Consciousness is not extended in space and so is not physical.
Yes it sounds like a physical thing to me.
If I zap you with an electric shock, you are aware of it, why? Because of the nerves in your skin that would transmit the message to your brain.
This your consciousness thread is dead on arrival. It in no way proves god

2 Likes

Re: Atheists Come And See: The Most Powerful Argument For The Existence Of God by Nobody: 8:49pm On Jul 10, 2016
4evergod2:


Doing what you just posted above translates to death but even science has documented cases of people who were clinically dead and were brought back to life medically and they narrated things that happened in the hospital while they were dead and they were spot on accurate.

When I say dead I mean totally dead with no brain activity and eyes closed yer they could see the room and the people in it and even their own dead body from an elevated position. How was this possible?

The fact is that many lf these scientists whose theories many of you are still running around with have abandoned these theories and run to God and you are still on what they have left behind as they realised how foolish they were.
Can U Provide Evidence For This Claim?? I need Source!! Not lies

DO U Know What Coma Is?? Or What Induced Coma Is??

3 Likes

Re: Atheists Come And See: The Most Powerful Argument For The Existence Of God by wiegraf: 8:50pm On Jul 10, 2016
UyiIredia:


God does it through our brains.

My turn to be obvious?


https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/God_of_the_gaps


"God of the gaps" is a term used to describe observations of theological perspectives in which gaps in scientific knowledge are taken to be evidence or proof of God's existence. The term was invented by Christian theologians not to discredit theism but rather to point out the fallacy of relying on teleological arguments for God's existence.[1] Some use the phrase to refer to a form of the argument from ignorance fallacy

But actually, we're pretty close to figuring out consciousness, no juju needed.

Ultimately, the best you could do is stretch this to is "universals exist, therefore god!? ", which is quite silly. It's like saying "fatness exists. It is not physical even though physical objects exhibit it, therefore god!? ". Or "stupidity exists. It is not physical. Therefore god?!"

Rinse and repeat with all universals...

5 Likes

Re: Atheists Come And See: The Most Powerful Argument For The Existence Of God by 4evergod2: 8:57pm On Jul 10, 2016
vincentico:

we degenerate physically because we breathe in oxygen
this oxygen keeping us alive is the very thing killing us
the cells in our bodies undergo oxidation

Thats the supposedly free radical theory of aging but even that is faulty because cells multiply and have the ability of recreating an exact same copy of the former so if oxidation occurs as fast as say 90 yrs why would the original healthy cell die off that fast when they divide a thousand times faster than we age.

Science itself proves that the cell from a man of 50 is as healthy as that of a man of 20 which is why a man of twenty can receive a liver or kidney or heart transplant from a man of fifty and that organ will live with him till he dies at maybe 90. So why doesnt the organ die off faster since its 30 years older.
Re: Atheists Come And See: The Most Powerful Argument For The Existence Of God by 4evergod2: 9:01pm On Jul 10, 2016
Lilbrown007:

Can U Provide Evidence For This Claim?? I need Source!! Not lies

DO U Know What Coma Is?? Or What Induced Coma Is??

So induced coma would enable one still see every single thing going in the room with their eyes closed?
Re: Atheists Come And See: The Most Powerful Argument For The Existence Of God by Nobody: 9:05pm On Jul 10, 2016
4evergod2:


So induced coma would enable one still see every single thing going in the room with their eyes closed?
Olodo Thats Why I Asked U If U New What Coma Is?? Yes of Course U Will Still Be Self Aware EVEN With The Eyes Closed
https://www.yahoo.com/beauty/what-its-like-to-be-in-a-coma-193252912.html
Re: Atheists Come And See: The Most Powerful Argument For The Existence Of God by HardMirror(m): 9:09pm On Jul 10, 2016
4evergod2:


Doing what you just posted above translates to death but even science has documented cases of people who were clinically dead and were brought back to life medically and they narrated things that happened in the hospital while they were dead and they were spot on accurate.

When I say dead I mean totally dead with no brain activity and eyes closed yer they could see the room and the people in it and even their own dead body from an elevated position. How was this possible?

The fact is that many lf these scientists whose theories many of you are still running around with have abandoned these theories and run to God and you are still on what they have left behind as they realised how foolish they were.

The bolded makes me laugh. so all doctors are christians now? Or all scientists are christians now? So I can't use my own common sense to weigh claims and decide, I have to follow your few supposed converted scientists?
Abeg talk better talk. Don't digress from the topic

3 Likes

Re: Atheists Come And See: The Most Powerful Argument For The Existence Of God by plaetton: 9:11pm On Jul 10, 2016
4evergod2:



I think you are the one mistaken consciousness with awareness.

Consciousness is not what makds u know you are a boy or girl or that you can drive. Its way beyond that. Consciousness is your wake up moment in life. Example.....sperm meetd egg and implants and begins the process of becoming a baby. In that process at a point the heart begins to beat and we say the baby is alive but without consciousness the baby may well still assume he or she is not alive.

Example again.....science itself has repeatedly shown that there is consciousness even after someone has been certified as clinically dead. In these cases people who died and were brought back to life told those who brought them back all they saw them doing while they lay dead. It was like seeing everything from above or from a corner of the room

So how could they have accurately seen and known all this even in death?

You need to read up bro. Science is in the dark regarding consciousness.

You're just argued for argument's sake.
Nothing that wrote above remotely repudiates my earlier points.

Consciousness is the agglomeration of interactive information.
Even a computer, a non living object, retains interactive information even after it is turned off.

The scenario that you referred to above, even if true, supports the assertion that quantas of interactive information, when they agglomerate to a critical mathematical threshold, become independent of their source, whether that source is a biological entity or not.

This is what we call consciousness.
This is why the consciousness of a cockroach, a chimpanzee and a human being are different,.. simply because their levels of interactive information DIFFER.

Consciousness evolves in the way that , hand in hand with biological evolution.

You are slightly different person every day , because something, more interactive information is added to your consciousness every single day, every interaction.
Your consciousness is constantly evolving as your store of knowledge, your interactive information increases.

5 Likes

Re: Atheists Come And See: The Most Powerful Argument For The Existence Of God by 4evergod2: 9:20pm On Jul 10, 2016
Lilbrown007:

Olodo Thats Why I Asked U If U New What Coma Is?? Yes of Course U Will Still Be Self Aware EVEN With The Eyes Closed
https://www.yahoo.com/beauty/what-its-like-to-be-in-a-coma-193252912.html


See how silly u sound. So being in a coma with ur eyes closed you would still be able to SEE not just HEAR everything everyone does in the room and when you wake up yoh give them a truthful and accurate account of all they were doing while you had your eyes closed in a coma?

Google is your friend. Do your research and quit talkinf about induced coma when I was talking about actual death.

1 Like

Re: Atheists Come And See: The Most Powerful Argument For The Existence Of God by 4evergod2: 9:22pm On Jul 10, 2016
plaetton:


You're just argued for argument's sake.
Nothing that wrote above remotely repudiates my earlier points.

Consciousness is the agglomeration of interactive information.
Even a computer, a non living object, retains interactive information even after it is turned off.

The scenario that you referred to above, even if true, supports the assertion that quantas of interactive information, when they agglomerate to a critical mathematical threshold, become independent of their source, whether that source is a biological entity or not.

This is what we call consciousness.
This is why the consciousness of a cockroach, a chimpanzee and a human being are different,.. simply because their levels of interactive information DIFFER.

Consciousness evolves in the way that , hand in hand with biological evolution.

You are slightly different person every day , because something, more interactive information is added to your consciousness every single day, every interaction.
Your consciousness is constantly evolving as your store of knowledge, your interactive information increases.


You do not even understand this discussion so you are talking from the left wing.

Consciousness here is not talking about knkwledge. First of all try to grasp an understanding of that before you type.
Re: Atheists Come And See: The Most Powerful Argument For The Existence Of God by Nobody: 9:26pm On Jul 10, 2016
4evergod2:



See how silly u sound. So being in a coma with ur eyes closed you would still be able to SEE not just HEAR everything everyone does in the room and when you wake up yoh give them a truthful and accurate account of all they were doing while you had your eyes closed in a coma?

Google is your friend. Do your research and quit talkinf about induced coma when I was talking about actual death.
[size=15pt]Still Playing Dumb Right U Still Don't Know What Coma Is??
Google Is Also Ur Friend Show Us U Ain't A Lie!! And Bring Ur Source Here!! [/size]
Re: Atheists Come And See: The Most Powerful Argument For The Existence Of God by 4evergod2: 9:29pm On Jul 10, 2016
Lilbrown007:

[size=15pt]Still Playing Dumb Right U Still Don't Know What Coma Is??
Google Is Also Ur Friend Show Us U Ain't A Lie!! And Bring Ur Source Here!! [/size]


Coma is not death. Stop deluding yourself
Re: Atheists Come And See: The Most Powerful Argument For The Existence Of God by Nobody: 9:32pm On Jul 10, 2016
4evergod2:



Coma is not death. Stop deluding yourself
[size=14pt]
And When Did I Say Coma Was Death?? Stop putting Words In My Mouth Just Like How U Christians Sorry I Ment Liars Do

So U Still Cant Bring Ur Source?? U know A Liar When U See One!![/size]

1 Like

Re: Atheists Come And See: The Most Powerful Argument For The Existence Of God by plaetton: 9:36pm On Jul 10, 2016
4evergod2:



You do not even understand this discussion so you are talking from the left wing.

Consciousness here is not talking about knkwledge. First of all try to grasp an understanding of that before you type.

The problem here is that you don't understand what consciousness is.
Despite my attempts to offer a definition, you still insist on defining it in your own very vague, very opaque, and ambiguous terms.

I suggest that you first define consciousness in very clear terms.
That way, we may appreciate where you may be coming from.

4 Likes

Re: Atheists Come And See: The Most Powerful Argument For The Existence Of God by plaetton: 9:39pm On Jul 10, 2016
UyiIredia:
It's actually one of the arguments I posted earlier on this thread

https://www.nairaland.com/2353987/three-arguments-gods-existence

The argument from consciousness: Consciousness is not a physical thing. It's also called awareness and that's not physical. It's not a physical thing that you can observe and measure but is the means by which you observe and measure. It's critical to my argument that consciousness be understood as something immaterial, which it actually is, going by its definition. If you think about it all knowledge stems from consciousness because to truly know anything you must be aware of it. You cannot know what you are not aware of.

Now if atheists are right then there should be no consciousness at all. In a purely physical world consciousness would be the anathema, something strange. But there is consciousness and therefore the atheist is not correct. Consciousness being immaterial cannot be explained by physical means. It did not evolve since evolution applies to physical beings. It does not spontaenously emerge because emergence typically deals with how complex PHYSICAL systems arise from simpler precursors. Atheism being materialistic in nature has nothing to offer to explain mental awareness. But the theist believing in an eternal conscious God has a means to explain consciousness. And that my friends wraps up my argument.

Cc thehomer Seun cloudgoddess Blaqsmith dalaman ichommy HardMirror johnydon22 onetrack joseph1013 Kay17 plaetton Davien ValentineMary lepasharon reallest freecocoa K9blunt Amusaopeyemi

What exactly is your reason for exhuming this dead thread.

I was right.

I did remember telling you that you were simply looking for a reason to believe , to convince yourself of the existence of God.
Re: Atheists Come And See: The Most Powerful Argument For The Existence Of God by 4evergod2: 9:40pm On Jul 10, 2016
Lilbrown007:

[size=14pt]
And When Did I Say Coma Was Death?? Stop putting Words In My Mouth Just Like How U Christians Sorry I Ment Liars Do

So U Still Cant Bring Ur Source?? U know A Liar When U See One!![/size]


http://www.independent.co.uk/news/science/life-after-death-largest-ever-study-provides-evidence-that-out-of-body-and-near-death-experiences-9780195.html


http://worldnewsdailyreport.com/german-scientists-prove-there-is-life-after-death/


http://www.express.co.uk/news/science/670781/There-IS-life-after-DEATH-Scientists-reveal-shock-findings-from-groundbreaking-study


Too many to post so research the rest yourself. These three should help and guide u.

2 Likes

Re: Atheists Come And See: The Most Powerful Argument For The Existence Of God by 4evergod2: 9:51pm On Jul 10, 2016
Lilbrown007:

[size=14pt]
And When Did I Say Coma Was Death?? Stop putting Words In My Mouth Just Like How U Christians Sorry I Ment Liars Do

So U Still Cant Bring Ur Source?? U know A Liar When U See One!![/size]


When you and the rest of your crew are done reading the links I provided and doing your own research you can come back and prove to me how evolution produced consciousness.

I REST MY CASE!
Re: Atheists Come And See: The Most Powerful Argument For The Existence Of God by Nobody: 10:25pm On Jul 10, 2016
4evergod2:



http://www.independent.co.uk/news/science/life-after-death-largest-ever-study-provides-evidence-that-out-of-body-and-near-death-experiences-9780195.html


http://worldnewsdailyreport.com/german-scientists-prove-there-is-life-after-death/


http://www.express.co.uk/news/science/670781/There-IS-life-after-DEATH-Scientists-reveal-shock-findings-from-groundbreaking-study


Too many to post so research the rest yourself. These three should help and guide u.
This Pic Are From Your Source They Is A Reason Its Called Near Death Experience!!

A near-death experience (NDE) is a personal experience associated with impending death, encompassing multiple possible sensations including detachment from the body, feelings of levitation, total serenity, security, warmth, the experience of absolute dissolution, and the presence of a light.

Explanatory models for the NDE can be divided into several broad categories, including psychological, physiological, and transcendental explanations.Research from neuroscience considers the NDE to be a hallucinatory state caused by various physiological and psychological factors

1 Like

Re: Atheists Come And See: The Most Powerful Argument For The Existence Of God by Nobody: 10:31pm On Jul 10, 2016
Hallucinations!! Cause They Ain't Completely Dead When Oxygen Stop Flowing To The Brain It Causes Hallucinations!! This Is Something They Teach In Biology Class Shey U Carry F9?? undecided

1 Like

Re: Atheists Come And See: The Most Powerful Argument For The Existence Of God by dablazor: 10:34pm On Jul 10, 2016
HardMirror:


The bolded makes me laugh. so all doctors are christians now? Or all scientists are christians now? So I can't use my own common sense to weigh claims and decide, I have to follow your few supposed converted scientists?
Abeg talk better talk. Don't digress from the topic
Lol u get time.
Re: Atheists Come And See: The Most Powerful Argument For The Existence Of God by cloudgoddess(f): 10:46pm On Jul 10, 2016
UyiIredia:


God does it through our brains.
So when a person consumes a poison, or is a victim of an accident that causes them to enter a vegetative state, is it God that takes away their consciousness? Or is the loss in consciousness a result of physical & chemical damage?

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Re: Atheists Come And See: The Most Powerful Argument For The Existence Of God by Seun(m): 10:50pm On Jul 10, 2016
UyiIredia:
It's actually one of the arguments I posted earlier on this thread

https://www.nairaland.com/2353987/three-arguments-gods-existence

The argument from consciousness: Consciousness is not a physical thing. It's also called awareness and that's not physical. It's not a physical thing that you can observe and measure but is the means by which you observe and measure. It's critical to my argument that consciousness be understood as something immaterial, which it actually is, going by its definition. If you think about it all knowledge stems from consciousness because to truly know anything you must be aware of it. You cannot know what you are not aware of.

Now if atheists are right then there should be no consciousness at all. In a purely physical world consciousness would be the anathema, something strange. But there is consciousness and therefore the atheist is not correct. Consciousness being immaterial cannot be explained by physical means. It did not evolve since evolution applies to physical beings. It does not spontaenously emerge because emergence typically deals with how complex PHYSICAL systems arise from simpler precursors. Atheism being materialistic in nature has nothing to offer to explain mental awareness. But the theist believing in an eternal conscious God has a means to explain consciousness. And that my friends wraps up my argument.

Cc thehomer Seun cloudgoddess Blaqsmith dalaman ichommy HardMirror johnydon22 onetrack joseph1013 Kay17 plaetton Davien ValentineMary lepasharon reallest freecocoa K9blunt Amusaopeyemi

It is true that consciousness isn't well understood by science at this time. We can make robots that behave like conscious beings, but we do not believe they have the same sense of self-awareness that animals and people seem to have. This is absolutely true.

But the inability of science to explain something doesn't prove the existence of God. There was a time when we could not explain how life came to be, thunder & lightning, how birds fly, how bats navigate without light, rainbows, etc. People took our inability to explain those things as a sign of the existence of God, but now we understand them through science. We may eventually understand consciousness through science.

Your speculations about the nature of consciousness are just speculations. There's no evidence that they are correct. I could come up with mine, and they would be equally useless. You can't just make things up and act as if they are true.

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Re: Atheists Come And See: The Most Powerful Argument For The Existence Of God by gungab(m): 11:03pm On Jul 10, 2016
Seun:


It is true that consciousness isn't well understood by science at this time. We can make robots that behave like conscious beings, but we do not believe they have the same sense of self-awareness that animals and people seem to have. This is absolutely true.

But the inability of science to explain something doesn't prove the existence of God. There was a time when we could not explain how life came to be, thunder & lightning, how birds fly, how bats navigate without light, rainbows, etc. People took our inability to explain those things as a sign of the existence of God, but now we understand them through science. We may eventually understand consciousness through science.

Your speculations about the nature of consciousness are just speculations. There's no evidence that they are correct. I could come up with mine, and they would be equally useless. You can't just make things up and act as if they are true.
oga seun,can you please get me thread that highlight types of prophesy you discussed sometime ago
thanks
Re: Atheists Come And See: The Most Powerful Argument For The Existence Of God by taurus25(m): 2:39am On Jul 11, 2016
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Re: Atheists Come And See: The Most Powerful Argument For The Existence Of God by taurus25(m): 2:40am On Jul 11, 2016

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Re: Atheists Come And See: The Most Powerful Argument For The Existence Of God by dalaman: 5:59am On Jul 11, 2016
4evergod2:



Example again.....science itself has repeatedly shown that there is consciousness even after someone has been certified as clinically dead. In these cases people who died and were brought back to life told those who brought them back all they saw them doing while they lay dead. It was like seeing everything from above or from a corner of the room

This is false no scientific study has concluded that consciousness survives bodily death. NDE and OBE all happen when people are fully alive. Near death experience can be induced in the lab using certain drugs .

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