hopefulLandlord:
The purpose this thread was created for is that atheists finally become theists since OP just discovered a "groundbreaking" discovery that would FINALLY prove to any doubters that god exists

But what this thread would succeed in doing is making certain theists to become atheists

Reading the arguments with clear mind does that

The dilemma that Nairaland theists go through is that in trying to PROVE their god exists, they infact prove he doesn't or at least they're not sure

They're making doubting theists turn atheist

And making atheists stand firm

At this junction, I move the motion that the thread be closed. It has fully served its purpose. Any other addition by the OP is just merely going round in circles just to save face.

HardMirror:

Yes it is.

Just seeing that you said it is not. Lol
So it is spiritual and proves god? Consciousness is absolutely physical. It is my brain updating and interpreting information from my senses constantly.

SMH. No it is not. Your brain updating i fromation from the senses is one thing. The consciousness it results in is another thing.

HardMirror:

You take the attention I am giving you for granted. Consciousness is ruled by action and reaction principles.
Don't take this as a liberty to ask everything that fits your whims. This is like aslking for the physical properties of love, jealousy, greed.

You keep evading. You said if consciousness was caused by chemicals and nerves in the brain, what is the chemical formula for consciousness. A very stvpid question, yet I still indulged your stvpidity and explained using a chemical battery that produces electricity. Here you are with another question.

All I see is a man grasping for straws here.

No brain, no consciousness. No nerves- no consciousness, no hormones - no consciousness. All this has been proven.

What are the physical properties of wearing a shoe?

The shoe itself has length as well as the hand wearing it. That is a physical property. You should be able to tell a physical property of consciousness if it is physical as you claim. If you can't tell me a physical or chemical property then it is not physical. And don't give me that useless copout of wearing a shoe. The shoe as well as the hand that wears it are physical with clear physical properties.

joseph1013:
I don't take UyiIredia serious. He is a pseudo-intellectual who uses the god-of-the-gap alot.

How can you make speculations and pass them across as facts. Huh?

Answer the argument instead of making baseless accusations.

UyiIredia:


The shoe itself has length as well as the hand wearing it. That is a physical property. You should be able to tell a physical property of consciousness if it is physical as you claim. If you can't tell me a physical or chemical property then it is not physical. And don't give me that useless copout of wearing a shoe. The shoe as well as the hand that wears it are physical with clear physical properties.

So you agree that to evaluate the physical proponents of the act of wearing a shoe, you have to look at the physical elements such as the shoe, hands and legs involved in the act. Well there is your answer. It is exactly the same for consciousness, you examine the physical properties of the elements involved in consciousness, such as the brain, nerves, hormones and stimuluses

UyiIredia:


SMH. No it is not. Your brain updating i fromation from the senses is one thing. The consciousness it results in is another thing.

What other thing?
You are struggling to find where to insert God into the whole process. Unfortunately you have not found a solid ground to build your argument as you are met with the obstacles of the physical and chemical triggers of consciousness.

I am waiting to see how you will sneak God into the process.

kevoh:

At this junction, I move the motion that the thread be closed. It has fully served its purpose. Any other addition by the OP is just merely going round in circles just to save face.

Nobody has brought any serious challenge to my argument. All I see are half-baked arguments and misunderstandings as to the nature of consciousness.

HardMirror:

So you agree that to evaluate the physical proponents of the act of wearing a shoe, you have to look at the physical elements such as the shoe, hands and legs involved in the act. Well there is your answer. It is exactly the same for consciousness, you examine the physical properties of the elements involved in consciousness, such as the brain, nerves, hormones and stimuluses

But those brain, nerves and hormones are not consciousness are they no? Not even their action is consciousness any more than a running engine is Driving a car. Their action results in a consciousness that is immaterial. Earlier I said that consciosuness is the state of being aware. Clearly that is not a material thing. Yet you foolishly insist it is. And point to the brain as if that helps.

Lilbrown007:

This Pic Are From Your Source They Is A Reason Its Called Near Death Experience!!

A near-death experience (NDE) is a personal experience associated with impending death, encompassing multiple possible sensations including detachment from the body, feelings of levitation, total serenity, security, warmth, the experience of absolute dissolution, and the presence of a light.

Explanatory models for the NDE can be divided into several broad categories, including psychological, physiological, and transcendental explanations.Research from neuroscience considers the NDE to be a hallucinatory state caused by various physiological and psychological factors

Again you miss it. Scientists had to recreate death itself in order to carry out their findings. They are not talking about the recreation of death of NDE they are talking about what happens afterwards. It seems you read but cannot assimilate.

How can four hundred test subjects all done in isolation from another share similar stories when revived and even stated all they saw being done while they were dead of supposedly dead.

Your brain is obviously too small to process this info I am sharing here. If it was just a feeling of levitation how come they had memories and could see everything even in that state?

Pocture this, you die or are put under clinical death and you have no brain activity and no life signs and close your eyes but you suddenly see the whole room from above your body and can see everyone and everything they are doing.

WHAT IS THAT THING THAT HAS THE ABILITY TO YET SEE AND HEAR EVERYTHING EVEN WITH ITS EYES CLLSED IN DEATH AND CAN ACCURATELY DESCRIBE WHAT IT SAW AND HEARD.

Lilbrown007:
Hallucinations!! Cause They Ain't Completely Dead When Oxygen Stop Flowing To The Brain It Causes Hallucinations!! This Is Something They Teach In Biology Class Shey U Carry F9??

So now its Hallucinations? Please define Hallucination for me. Oh wait let me help you.

Hallucination - a sensory experience of something that does not exist outside the mind.

A Hallucination is same with a mirage. YOU SEE WHAT DOES NOT EXIST OR WHAT ISNT REAL.

BUT THESE PEOPLE GAVE ACCURATE ACCOUNTS OF REAL OCCURENCES THAT HAPPENED IN REAL TIME WHILE THEY WERE DEAD.

This is really above your reasoning ability I can tell.

UyiIredia:


But those brain, nerves and hormones are not consciousness are they no? Not even their action is consciousness any more than a running engine is Driving a car. Their action results in a consciousness that is immaterial. Earlier I said that consciosuness is the state of being aware. Clearly that is not a material thing. Yet you foolishly insist it is. And point to the brain as if that helps.

Consciousness is a product not an absolute.

Your question is like seeing a fire burning on wood and oxygen then asking if the oxygen is fire or the wood is fire. The fire is the product, it is not inside the wood.

Consciousness is not inside your hormones or nerves or brain or the drugs that can alter your consciousness, it is a product of these things.

Please are you educated

HardMirror:


What other thing?
You are struggling to find where to insert God into the whole process. Unfortunately you have not found a solid ground to build your argument as you are met with the obstacles of the physical and chemical triggers of consciousness.

I am waiting to see how you will sneak God into the process.

Physical and chemical triggers that cause c onsciousnesss. Consciousness IS NOT those physical and chemical triggers. It is An immaterial effect of those triggers. By the way, the brain is a a chemical mass right. And chemical reactions typically result in chemical products with a use/release of energy. And chemical reactions go on in the brain to cause consciousness. But consciousness is neither a chemical product nor a form of energy. So what is it, if not immaterial?

HardMirror:

Consciousness is a product not an absolute.

Your question is like seeing a fire burning on wood and oxygen then asking if the oxygen is fire or the wood is fire. The fire is the product, it is not inside the wood.

Consciousness is not inside your hormones or nerves or brain or the drugs that can alter your consciousness, it is a product of these things.

Please are you educated

Is consciousness a chemical product or a form of energy?

dalaman:


This is false no scientific study has concluded that consciousness survives bodily death. NDE and OBE all happen when people are fully alive. Near death experience can be induced in the lab using certain drugs .

Again you speak from the smallness of your thinking capacity. So I guess the scientic information posted by scientists themselves online are all lies and what your much adored seun also stated about science not having any clue about how to explain consciousness is also a lie.

At least Seun admits his limitation but the rest of you are just clutching at straws.

dalaman:


If consciousness is immaterial as your claim then why do material stuffs affect it like drugs? Alcohol affects consciousness alot for example. A brain surgery can permanently alter your consciousness. If consciousness is immaterial then why does material damage or chemical effect on the brain alter or affect this immaterial consciousness?

Drugs do not affect consciouness as your idea of what consciouness is, isnt what we are talking about.

How can someone in a coma or who died come back and tell you what they SAW you doing while they lay lifeless or comatose with their eyes closed?

WHO WAS SEEING ALL THESE WHILE IN A COMA OR DEAD AND COULD REMEMBER THEM WHEN AWAKE?

4evergod2:


Again you speak from the smallness of your thinking capacity. So I guess the scientic information posted by scientists themselves online are all lies and what your much adored seun also stated about science not having any clue about how to explain consciousness is also a lie.

At least Seun admits his limitation but the rest of you are just clutching at straws.

You haven't posted any scientific peer viewed study that says NDE is evidence for the after life or happens when people are dead. Post the scientific study here of you have it.

HardMirror:


So how is it that some drugs can alter your consciousness?

If you smoke good weed your consciousness will be altered. Thanks to the cannabinol (not sure of the spelling) in the weed. Same with lots of other drugs and chemicals.

Does this not tell you that consciousness is controlled by electrical impulses from the nerves and chemical interactions with the brain?

Or are those chemical compounds in hard drugs spiritual?

So drugs alter the consciousness right? Ok show me links or proof where someone with drug induced conscioisness and had his or her eyes closed and unreslonsive to light yet could see from another angle in the same room what everyone was doing.

Just one link would do.

HardMirror:

You are just so funny.
Chemical substances produces electricity in batteries, is electricity a chemical substance?
You are playing ignorant. Lol
How can you a supposed educated man be asking me if consciousness is a chemical.
The battery example I gave you answers your question

But the chemical reactions produced in a battery do they make the battery conscious?

This is way above your head so just observe instead of making kiddy statements.

HardMirror:

You take the attention I am giving you for granted. Consciousness is ruled by action and reaction principles.
Don't take this as a liberty to ask everything that fits your whims. This is like aslking for the physical properties of love, jealousy, greed.

You keep evading. You said if consciousness was caused by chemicals and nerves in the brain, what is the chemical formula for consciousness. A very stvpid question, yet I still indulged your stvpidity and explained using a chemical battery that produces electricity. Here you are with another question.

All I see is a man grasping for straws here.

No brain, no consciousness. No nerves- no consciousness, no hormones - no consciousness. All this has been proven.

What are the physical properties of wearing a shoe?

Who proved it?

4evergod2:



So now its Hallucinations? Please define Hallucination for me. Oh wait let me help you.

Hallucination - a sensory experience of something that does not exist outside the mind.

A Hallucination is same with a mirage. YOU SEE WHAT DOES NOT EXIST OR WHAT ISNT REAL.

BUT THESE PEOPLE GAVE ACCURATE ACCOUNTS OF REAL OCCURENCES THAT HAPPENED IN REAL TIME WHILE THEY WERE DEAD.

This is really above your reasoning ability I can tell.

WHY ARE U LYING NA OR THE LINK U GAVE ME DIDN'T U READ FROM IT NOBODY IN THAT LINK GAVE AN ACCURATE ACCOUNT OF WHAT HAPPENED IN THE REAL WORD THEY WERE ALL HALLUCINATING OR DIDN'T U READ THE SYMPTOMS IN THE LINK U GAVE ME??

UyiIredia:


Is consciousness a chemical product or a form of energy?

We have proven consciousness to be a product of physical entities. Now prove otherwise and stop going in circles. You are just asking the same questions in different ways just to waste our time since you know you have nothing else to say.

4evergod2:


Drugs do not affect consciouness as your idea of what consciouness is, isnt what we are talking about.

How can someone in a coma or who died come back and tell you what they SAW you doing while they lay lifeless or comatose with their eyes closed?

WHO WAS SEEING ALL THESE WHILE IN A COMA OR DEAD AND COULD REMEMBER THEM WHEN AWAKE?

All these claims have been made but non has been established scientifically.

dalaman:


You haven't posted any scientific peer viewed study that says NDE is evidence for the after life or happens when people are dead. Post the scientific study here of you have it.

Is says here that science is CLOSING IN ON CONSCIOUSNESS....Thjs means they have no clue yet. SO WHERE ARE YOUR STATEMENTS COMING FROM?

http://www.livescience.com/47096-theories-seek-to-explain-consciousness.html

And here

https://www.theguardian.com/science/2015/jan/21/-sp-why-cant-worlds-greatest-minds-solve-mystery-consciousness



But here they have provided proof to consciousness scientifically.



http://www.spiritofmaat.com/archive/aug2/sciproof.htm


Its either science is confused or you are confused or you know more than the same scientist whose theory you are pushing forward and who have denied even having any theory .

So tell me are you a scientist? Or are my above links also lies and fabrications.

HardMirror:

We have proven consciousness to be a product of physical entities. Now prove otherwise and stop going in circles. You are just asking the same questions in different ways just to waste our time since you know you have nothing else to say.

You have only ended up deluding yourself and showing your ignorance because even scientists have said they cannot explain it with their own mouth.

So where did your scientific proof come from?

Lilbrown007:
WHY ARE U LYING NA OR THE LINK U GAVE ME DIDN'T U READ FROM IT NOBODY IN THAT LINK GAVE AN ACCURATE ACCOUNT OF WHAT HAPPENED IN THE REAL WORD THEY WERE ALL HALLUCINATING OR DIDN'T U READ THE SYMPTOMS IN THE LINK U GAVE ME??

Symptoms? Accurate? I think you are the one who needs to read it again.

You are still mentioning hallucinations when I already defined that for you? Smh

4evergod2:



Is says here that science is CLOSING IN ON CONSCIOUSNESS....Thjs means they have no clue yet. SO WHERE ARE YOUR STATEMENTS COMING FROM?

http://www.livescience.com/47096-theories-seek-to-explain-consciousness.html

And here

https://www.theguardian.com/science/2015/jan/21/-sp-why-cant-worlds-greatest-minds-solve-mystery-consciousness



But here they have provided proof to consciousness scientifically.



http://www.spiritofmaat.com/archive/aug2/sciproof.htm


Its either science is confused or you are confused or you know more than the same scientist whose theory you are pushing forward and who have denied even having any theory .

So tell me are you a scientist? Or are my above links also lies and fabrications.

Non of the links you provided claimed that NDE occurs when people are dead.

4evergod2:



Symptoms? Accurate? I think you are the one who needs to read it again.

You are still mentioning hallucinations when I already defined that for you? Smh

And I Explained "Why" For U

dalaman:


Non of the links you provided claimed that NDE occurs when people are dead.

Are you alright? The first two links was to show you that science had no explanation for consciousness because you claimed to know more than these same scientists who denied having any knowledge about consciousness.

The third link I think you need to read again and read about the two scientists whose names feature on that link.

Lilbrown007:
And I Explained "Why" For U

How could you possibly explain why to me using science when science denies having knowledge of same? Pls explain that to me.

UyiIredia:


Nobody has brought any serious challenge to my argument

And I am not in the least surprised that you mentioned this, it only proves my point that you prefer going round in circles despite the weight of the arguments already put forward. What is left now, is for those with discerning minds to conclude.

kevoh:

And I am not in the least surprised that you mentioned this, it only proves my point that you prefer going round in circles despite the weight of the arguments already put forward. What is left now, is for those with discerning minds to conclude.

And I have shown that their arguments are just their imagination because I showed them scientific links where scientists themselves said they were still studying consciousness so cannot offer any explanation.

Their arguments were built on the samd science that denies knowledge of same. So where then is the argument?