14) Why did Jesus say he was going to come back again in the life time of his followers? Even the apostle Paul preached the idea that Jesus was coming
back in the lifetime of his listeners. And has he come back?

I answered u here already: https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-326597.32.html

where is huxley?

where is huxley?

urm, he's thinking!

Hello Noetic,

My answers to your questions.  Pardon me, I cannot go into any depth cuz am a bit unwell today.  Anyway, here we go.

1. You are an atheist cos u believe in the non-existence of Jehovah God,  . . .the subject of your belief/disbelief is Jehovah God. ,   .so I ask
a. who is Jehovah God? what is His Ontology? what part of this ontology do u find impossible to gasp? what part of His ontology ascribes the notion of nihilance to Him?
note: your ontological definition must lay emphasis on His meta-physical attributes.
b. what is your scientific evidence that establishes that God does not exist?
c. where is your intellectual or logical evidence that supports your belief/disbelief?
d. do u understand that a lack of evidence for your belief/disbelief means that all u have is FAITH in the nihilance of God? are u aware of the consequences of this dogmatic faith? what makes u different from the Christians who u accuse of having a blind faith?

The subject of my disbelief is Jehovah, Allah, Zeus, Thor, etc, etc.

Jehovah - My knowledge of Johovah stems from the bible, according to which Jehovah is the God of the Jews firstly and then secondly thru Jesus, the God of the world. The ontology of Jehovah as presented the the Judeo-Christian tradition is as follows:  transcendence, omnipotent, omnipresence, omnibenevolent, wicked, Jealous, murderous, vindictive, has a mind, possesses freewill amongst others.

Mind you -  as I did not posit Jehovah, I can only give you his attributes as I have learned from the Judeo-Christian tradition.  Besides this tradition, I know nothing else about Jehovah.


The reason I do not accept this ontology is that is possess contradictions and internal inconsistencies, such as;

- Why is there so much natural suffering in the world in this Jehovah is omnibenevolent and omnipotent.  An omnibenevolent being is one who is only capable of good - omnipotence means he is capable of bringing about any state of affairs. So if Jehovah has these attributes why is there so much suffering in the world.

- Why would an omnibenevolent being called for his followers to murder innocent infants, rape and kill their parents, etc, etc?  It makes no sense in the light of his omnibenevolence.


-  And many other contradictions and inconsistencies.  


b, c, d)  I don't think there is direct scientific evidence that God does not exist.  I have NEVER argued this case and neither would any well informed atheist.  Think of it this way - is there scientific evidence that dragons, fairies, satyrs do not exist?

However, if you tell me what attributes an entity possesses, I could use any number of means to evaluate such attributes, including science.  So if you define a dragon as a fire-breathing animal, I would use my knowledge of biology and chemistry to determine the likeliwood of such an animal existing. It turns out that biology and chemistry says that it is very unlikely for a biological system to spontaneously produce fire from their internals.  So for all intends and purposes, dragons are unlikely to exist.

In the case of Jehovah, we examine the narrative about God using a number of methods - anthropological, historiogical, and scientific, etc, etc.  Evidence from these diverse disciplines suggests the Jehovah is a mythological figure from antiquity, just like Thor, Zeus, Wotan.  On this basis I have no choice but to disbelieve in the existence of Jevohah.



So in the light of the present evidence, I have no choice but to disbelief in his possessing this attributes.  So if he does not possess these attributes, then he cannot be God as currently construed.

2. You have repeatedly advocated evolution as the source of life as we know it today. . .so I ask
a. the commonest law of biogenesis says life begets life. Biology buttresses this.
Yet evolution claims that the first substance of life were formed from non-living substances refered to as "spontaneous generation". is this not a contradiction?
b. Darwin claims that all organisms on earth are descent from a common ancestor or a last universal ancestor.Whats the atheist's explanation for the mitochondria gene exception? what is the identity and nature of the last common universal ancestor?
c. Evolution traces life to phylogenetic tree that that postulates three domains of life namely bacteria, archea and eucaryota. What is the major consensus or common denominator to whom life can be traced to between these three?
d. Evolution claims that increasing complex chemical reactions that resulted from simpler chemical reactions are the last traces of life.
what was the singular first chemical reaction that kick started life? and what were the substances that made up this reaction? what was the structure of the first living things? what was the catalyst of this first chemical reaction? what were the components of this catalyst?
e. with regards to the pioneer formation of the RNA? how did it happen? which was the very first? what was its structure?
f. Since evolution is believed to be a continuous process. . ,  . .what has/will man evolved to, since man evolved from an ape?

a)  Why should we trust the Law of Biogenesis?  Does it reveal some universal truth about nature?  How was the Law of Biogenesis arrived at and What is it anyway?

If you think the Law of Biogenesis is Truth, what is it about it that contradicts with The Theory of Evolution?

Now, the law of biogenesis, if it is truth, has nothing whatsoever to say about The Theory of Evolution.   The Theory of Evolution ONLY explains how life diversified,  NOT how life started.  

Can you show me any scientific material that says that the Theory of Evolution addresses the origins of Life?


b)

Darwin claims that all organisms on earth are descent from a common ancestor or a last universal ancestor.Whats the atheist's explanation for the mitochondria gene exception? what is the identity and nature of the last common universal ancestor?

It is wrong to say that atheism postulates about mitochondria, gene, etc.  That is the jobs of biologists and other scientist.  The defintion of atheism does not address gene, cells, DNA, etc, etc.

I truly am not familiar with mitochondria gene exception, but in keeping with my commitment to minimise my saying of  "I don't know", I will have to turn to google.  Sorry, I could not find anything meaning from google.  So I would appreciate it if you explain this further to me.

As far as I know, the last common ancestor is probably the eukryotes.

c. Evolution traces life to phylogenetic tree that that postulates three domains of life namely bacteria, archea and eucaryota. What is the major consensus or common denominator to whom life can be traced to between these three?

Current scientific thinking would have eukaryotes, eubacteria and archaea as some of the earliest life forms of the planet. My scientific sources do not name any earlier sources.

d. Evolution claims that increasing complex chemical reactions that resulted from simpler chemical reactions are the last traces of life.
what was the singular first chemical reaction that kick started life? and what were the substances that made up this reaction? what was the structure of the first living things? what was the catalyst of this first chemical reaction? what were the components of this catalyst?

Evolution makes no such claim.   Can you show me any reputed sources about evolution where such claims are made?

e. with regards to the pioneer formation of the RNA? how did it happen? which was the very first? what was its structure?

Because I am not allowed to make things up, but refer to scientific source, I could not find an scientific sources that explains this.

f. Since evolution is believed to be a continuous process. . ,  . .what has/will man evolved to, since man evolved from an ape?

Where did you get your impression that evolution is a continuous process?  I need scientific sources.  And what does it mean to be a continuous process? Please explain with sources from books or journals written by evolutionary scientist.

Can you show me where the Theory of Evolution makes predictions about the particular outcome of a given line of evolution?   All TTE says is that as long as the conditions are right (selection pressures, mutations, gene flow, etc)  living organism will evolve, but it cannot predict the direction of evolution because the driving source, mutation, is a random event.

3. a. Is your trust/belief in science based on FAITH or based on science? whats the difference between faith and science? have u ever observed evolution? do u know the difference between faith and evolution?
b. where did human attributes and abilities like art, music, religion and sports evolve from?. . . . .please dont mention cranial evolution.
c. what is your explanation for man's ability to use "MEDIUMS" to decipher the past and predict the future?
d. Is absence of proof the same as proof of absence? is there a slight possibility that the existence of something cannot be known?

a. Is your trust/belief in science based on FAITH or based on science? whats the difference between faith and science? have u ever observed evolution? do u know the difference between faith and evolution?

a)  This is the best and most significant question (Is your trust/belief in science based on FAITH or based on science? ) you have asked so far.  The other parts of the question, like all your previous questions, are just another act of flailing about.

To address this question (Is your trust/belief in science based on FAITH or based on science? ) properly, we need to define the word FAITH and Science.  So I shall turn to a dictionary definition to help clarify the words:

I found the following defintions from dictionary.com

1. confidence or trust in a person or thing: faith in another's ability.
2. belief that is not based on proof: He had faith that the hypothesis would be substantiated by fact.
3. belief in God or in the doctrines or teachings of religion: the firm faith of the Pilgrims.
4. belief in anything, as a code of ethics, standards of merit, etc.: to be of the same faith with someone concerning honesty.
5. a system of religious belief: the Christian faith; the Jewish faith.
6. the obligation of loyalty or fidelity to a person, promise, engagement, etc.: Failure to appear would be breaking faith.
7. the observance of this obligation; fidelity to one's promise, oath, allegiance, etc.: He was the only one who proved his faith during our recent troubles.
8. Christian Theology. the trust in God and in His promises as made through Christ and the Scriptures by which humans are justified or saved.

I have FAITH in science in the sense given in definition 1 - I have confidence that science, with its very successful track record, is the way to uncover the truth about reality.   I do not associate science with the other definitions.  The other definitions are the province of theology, not science.


Science is the systematic raising of hypothesis and testing, verifying these hypothesis;  Rejecting the ones that comport with the facts.  So the key elements in any enterprise worthy of being called science are:  Hypothesis, collection of data,  check data againsts hypothesis,  accept or reject the outcome of test.  Thus science is an OBJECTIVE exercise

Faith on the other hand, allows for the acceptance of propositions in the face of contradictory evidence, or in the face of no evidence at all.  Faith is a subjective exercise and any faith proposition is subject to the whimps of any particular individual.  Thus a moslem has faith that Mohammed is the prophet of God in the same way that you have faith that Jesus is God.

I have not personally observed evolution.  But that does not mean it does not exist.  Have you ever observed a black hole, or a supernova, or a gamma ray burst?

Faith and Evolution - Faith is a condition of the mind.  Evolution is the change of state.

b. where did human attributes and abilities like art, music, religion and sports evolve from?. . . . .please dont mention cranial evolution.

Humans have these abilities in the same way that some animals also possess communicate, albeit in very rudimentary form compared to humans. So these abilities have the result of the slow and progressive evolution leading to humans and the evolution with human cultures.

Why were there no computers, satellite technology, mobile phones, cars, x-ray radiography 5000 years ago?  Why are these only modern inventions?

c. what is your explanation for man's ability to use "MEDIUMS" to decipher the past and predict the future?

Can you provide evidence that Mediumship accurates and correctly decipher the past and predict the future?  I am not aware that this is true and that what they do is not trickery.

d. Is absence of proof the same as proof of absence? is there a slight possibility that the existence of something cannot be known?

No. Absence of proof is not proof of absence, but this is a maxim that should be applied in a case by case basis.  Allow me to illustrate - supposing I postulate that right now next to you there is a 120 tonnes ping  whale.  Can you prove me wrong?

wow!

@ Huxley

The subject of my disbelief is Jehovah, Allah, Zeus, Thor, etc, etc.

Jehovah - My knowledge of Johovah stems from the bible, according to which Jehovah is the God of the Jews firstly and then secondly thru Jesus, the God of the world. The ontology of Jehovah as presented the the Judeo-Christian tradition is as follows: transcendence, omnipotent, omnipresence, omnibenevolent, wicked, Jealous, murderous, vindictive, has a mind, possesses freewill amongst others.

Mind you - as I did not posit Jehovah, I can only give you his attributes as I have learned from the Judeo-Christian tradition. Besides this tradition, I know nothing else about Jehovah.


The reason I do not accept this ontology is that is possess contradictions and internal inconsistencies, such as;

- Why is there so much natural suffering in the world in this Jehovah is omnibenevolent and omnipotent. An omnibenevolent being is one who is only capable of good - omnipotence means he is capable of bringing about any state of affairs. So if Jehovah has these attributes why is there so much suffering in the world.

- Why would an omnibenevolent being called for his followers to murder innocent infants, rape and kill their parents, etc, etc? It makes no sense in the light of his omnibenevolence.


- And many other contradictions and inconsistencies.

1. Your presumed "contradictions" are ridiculous? have u ever bothered to read a bible?
Suffering is the function of the absence of God. The world (which refers to the system of events) of God as created in the garden of Eden was WITHOUT suffering. Man sinned and was expelled from the world of GOD. The world we live in is NOT of God as originally desiigned. . . that is why
a. Satan is called the PRINCE of this world. . . . , cos Satanic schemes and policies are dominant in the political, business, economic and social arena as we see it today.
b. Jesus said that WE (believers) are the salt of this polluted WORLD. . . .that explains why the Christian ways of doing things is foolish to the carnality of the world we live in.

Suffering has never been the intention or plan of God. . . .suffering is part of the package u get from a world not of GOD. do u know of God's plan to end suffering?
why do u think heaven and earth would pass away? why do u think Christ would be back to reign? What do u understand by the kingdom of God?
All of this is the establishment of God's own world (system of events) where suffering, fear and war have no place.

2. I have addressed ur killing concerns on sevearl threads including this one. Simply replace the children of Israel with the believers in Christ and the victims with unbelievers.
u come up with certain deductions/, , . .
a. God would do anything for the well being of His chosen and annointed. . .including the killing and destruction of the enemy.
b. We have a God who cares about the well being of His people
c. It is DANGEROUS to live outside the shield of God
. . .and many more

b, c, d) I don't think there is direct scientific evidence that God does not exist. I have NEVER argued this case and neither would any well informed atheist. Think of it this way - is there scientific evidence that dragons, fairies, satyrs do not exist?

However, if you tell me what attributes an entity possesses, I could use any number of means to evaluate such attributes, including science. So if you define a dragon as a fire-breathing animal, I would use my knowledge of biology and chemistry to determine the likeliwood of such an animal existing. It turns out that biology and chemistry says that it is very unlikely for a biological system to spontaneously produce fire from their internals. So for all intends and purposes, dragons are unlikely to exist.

In the case of Jehovah, we examine the narrative about God using a number of methods - anthropological, historiogical, and scientific, etc, etc. Evidence from these diverse disciplines suggests the Jehovah is a mythological figure from antiquity, just like Thor, Zeus, Wotan. On this basis I have no choice but to disbelieve in the existence of Jevohah.



So in the light of the present evidence, I have no choice but to disbelief in his possessing this attributes. So if he does not possess these attributes, then he cannot be God as currently construed.

1. This sounds like a rebranded I DONT KNOW

2. All u have done is to tell LIES. . . . . .what anthropological, historical, and scientific methods lead to the notion that Jehovah is a mythical person?

noetic2:

@ Huxley
1. Your presumed "contradictions" are ridiculous? have u ever bothered to read a bible?
Suffering is the function of the absence of God. The world (which refers to the system of events) of God as created in the garden of Eden was WITHOUT suffering. Man sinned and was expelled from the world of GOD. The world we live in is NOT of God as originally desiigned. . . that is why
a. Satan is called the PRINCE of this world. . . . , cos Satanic schemes and policies are dominant in the political, business, economic and social arena as we see it today.
b. Jesus said that WE (believers) are the salt of this polluted WORLD. . . .that explains why the Christian ways of doing things is foolish to the carnality of the world we live in.

Suffering has never been the intention or plan of God. . . .suffering is part of the package u get from a world not of GOD. do u know of God's plan to end suffering?
why do u think heaven and earth would pass away? why do u think Christ would be back to reign? What do u understand by the kingdom of God?
All of this is the establishment of God's own world (system of events) where suffering, fear and war have no place.

2. I have addressed your killing concerns on sevearl threads including this one. Simply replace the children of Israel with the believers in Christ and the victims with unbelievers.
u come up with certain deductions/, , . .
a. God would do anything for the well being of His chosen and annointed. . .including the killing and destruction of the enemy.
b. We have a God who cares about the well being of His people
c. It is DANGEROUS to live outside the shield of God
. . .and many more

1. This sounds like a rebranded I DONT KNOW

2. All u have done is to tell LIES. . . . . .what anthropological, historical, and scientific methods lead to the notion that Jehovah is a mythical person?

Could God have brought about a state of affair where there was no SIN. And NO Suffering?

huxley:

Could God have brought about a state of affair where there was no SIN. And NO Suffering?

what is ur understanding of predestination?. . . . . .cos it seems thats where ur argument is leading to. , , .

u also have not told me what anthropological, historical, and scientific methods lead to the notion that Jehovah is a mythical person?

noetic2:

what is your understanding of predestination?. . . . . .cos it seems thats where your argument is leading to. ,  ,  .

No, that is not where I and heading.  I couldn't care less about it.  

But answer my question.

[size=16pt]Could God have brought about a state of affairs where there was no SIN.  And NO Suffering?
[/size]

huxley:

No, that is not where I and heading.  I couldn't care less about it.  

But answer my question.

[size=16pt]Could God have brought about a state of affairs where there was no SIN.  And NO Suffering?
[/size]

YES. . . . . . . All it required was obedience to God's laws. . , .Garden of Eden testifies to world without SIN and suffering. . . until man transgressed. . . . . . .
The new world to come also attests to this. . . .



So u tell me. . . .[size=16pt]what anthropological, historical, and scientific methods lead to the notion that Jehovah is a mythical person?[/size]

noetic2:

YES. . . . . . . All it required was obedience to God's laws. . ,  .Garden of Eden testifies to world without SIN and suffering. . . until man transgressed. . . . . . .
The new world to come also attests to this. . . .

YES - So if God could have done this, BUT did NOT do it, thus ensuring that there would be SIN and suffering (causing him to REGRET having created MAN), then he CANNOT be an OMNIBENEVOLENT being.

HENCE, a contradiction or internal inconsistency in this given ontology of God.  Existence does not admit of contradiction, thus God with the given properties CANNOT exist.

My case RESTS.

Thank you for helping me prove the non-existence of your God.

noetic2:

@ Huxley
1. Your presumed "contradictions" are ridiculous? have u ever bothered to read a bible?
Suffering is the function of the absence of God. The world (which refers to the system of events) of God as created in the garden of Eden was WITHOUT suffering. Man sinned and was expelled from the world of GOD. The world we live in is NOT of God as originally desiigned. . . that is why

Do you bother to read the bible in its entertity or do you pick and choose what to believe in as uaual?. . . .What do you mean by suffering is the absence of your mythical god?. . .The bible does not say such at all. . .these are the lies you guys tell yourselves so that you can sleep at night while maintaining your delusions. . .The bible says the oppisite. . .If you have any verse that says suffering is the absence of the bible god pls put it forward. . .this is what the bible has to say about the problem of evil. . .

(Amos 3:6) - "Shall a trumpet be blown in the city, and the people not be afraid? shall there be evil in a city, and the LORD hath not done it?"

(Isaiah 45:7,) - "I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

I do not believe that evil is caused by the imaginary bible god but that is what his alleged word says. . .Amos 3: 6 goes ahead and makes a very bold claim saying that the bible god himself is responsible for the evil that takes place in every city. . . . This debunks all your apologetics. . . .

a. Satan is called the PRINCE of this world. . . . , cos Satanic schemes and policies are dominant in the political, business, economic and social arena as we see it today.

Where exactly does the bible say this. . .when will you guys stop lying to yourselves?. . In fact this is what the bible says about political leaders. . . .

Rom13:1 Everyone must submit himself to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God. 
Rom 13:2 Consequently, he who rebels against the authority is rebelling against what God has instituted, and those who do so will bring judgment on themselves. 
Rom 13:3 For rulers hold no terror for those who do right, but for those who do wrong. Do you want to be free from fear of the one in authority? Then do what is right and he will commend you. 
Rom 13:4 For he is God's servant to do you good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for he does not bear the sword for nothing. He is God's servant, an agent of wrath to bring punishment on the wrongdoer. 
Rom 13:5 Therefore, it is necessary to submit to the authorities, not only because of possible punishment but also because of conscience. 
Rom 13:6 This is also why you pay taxes, for the authorities are God's servants, who give their full time to governing. 

The bible says those in authorities were put there by the bible god and should be respected no matter what. . .why then are you talking about political power. . .Personally i know that no god put people in power but why not go but what your bible says when making claims. . .

Suffering has never been the intention or plan of God. . . .suffering is part of the package u get from a world not of GOD. do u know of God's plan to end suffering?

The bible does NOT say any of what you have written down at all. . . .

why do u think heaven and earth would pass away? why do u think Christ would be back to reign? What do u understand by the kingdom of God?
All of this is the establishment of God's own world (system of events) where suffering, fear and war have no place.

Every body wants this kind of utopia that is why every myth contains this heaven myth as a place where people can go and rest from the evils of this world. . . . . . . .

2. I have addressed your killing concerns on sevearl threads including this one. Simply replace the children of Israel with the believers in Christ and the victims with unbelievers.
u come up with certain deductions/, , . .
a. God would do anything for the well being of His chosen and annointed. . .including the killing and destruction of the enemy.
b. We have a God who cares about the well being of His people
c. It is DANGEROUS to live outside the shield of God
. . .and many more

Do you accept this rationalization for Islam? Will you accept if moslems tell you that allah will destroy and do anything for his chosen ummah including killing and destruction of the enemies?. . .Moslems have a god who cares for them no? It is also DANGEROUS to live outside of allah's shield. . .So next time DO NOT complain if moslems kill you because they are doing what allah tells them. . .just as you believe that it is was OK for your god to order the killings and destruction of others. . . NEVER again complain if moslems go about killing for their god because they are doing exactly what their god says something which you believe is ONLY right if it is your god that commands it. . . .what makes the murders that were sanctioned by your god right and that sanctioned b allah wrong? are they not both gods?. . .Stop complaining when moslems kill you people ever again because they are doing what their own god tells themto do. . .

2. All u have done is to tell LIES. . . . . .what anthropological, historical, and scientific methods lead to the notion that Jehovah is a mythical person?

Where is your scientific evidence, historical evidence methods which show that yahweh is not a myth. . .

huxley:

YES - So if God could have done this, BUT did NOT do it, thus ensuring that there would be SIN and suffering (causing him to REGRET having created MAN), then he CANNOT be an OMNIBENEVOLENT being.

HENCE, a contradiction or internal inconsistency in this given ontology of God. Existence does not admit of contradiction, thus God with the given properties CANNOT exist.

My case RESTS.

Thank you for helping me prove the non-existence of your God.

Brilliant, Huxley! I demand that we should not respond any further to this thread as Huxley has conclusively proved that Noetic's God does not exist.

But please let's note that even if "God" as defined by the Bible/ Quoran does not exist, this does not nullify the existence of an uncaused cause, a prime mover and core creative element for the universe. That element, which manifests attributes of intelligence and Power, is what is defined as God within the cosmological argument.

So God exists, but Noetic's god has today been put to the sword by Huxley.

huxley:

YES - So if God could have done this, BUT did NOT do it, thus ensuring that there would be SIN and suffering (causing him to REGRET having created MAN), then he CANNOT be an OMNIBENEVOLENT being.

HENCE, a contradiction or internal inconsistency in this given ontology of God.  Existence does not admit of contradiction, thus God with the given properties CANNOT exist.

My case RESTS.

Thank you for helping me prove the non-existence of your God.

do u have a brain at all? 

a. did u read my definition of sin?
b. do u understand the origin of suffering and sin?. . . .     .what? 

did u not read this from my post
YES. . . . . . . [size=16pt]All it required was obedience to God's laws. . , .Garden of Eden testifies to world without SIN and suffering. . . until man transgressed. . . . . . .
The new world to come also attests to this. . . . [/size]

mazaje:

Do you bother to read the bible in its entertity or do you pick and choose what to believe in as uaual?. . . .What do you mean by suffering is the absence of your mythical god?. . .The bible does not say such at all. . .these are the lies you guys tell yourselves so that you can sleep at night while maintaining your delusions. . .The bible says the oppisite. . .If you have any verse that says suffering is the absence of the bible god pls put it forward. . .this is what the bible has to say about the problem of evil. . .

(Amos 3:6) - "Shall a trumpet be blown in the city, and the people not be afraid? shall there be evil in a city, and the LORD hath not done it?"

(Isaiah 45:7,) - "I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

I do not believe that evil is caused by the imaginary bible god but that is what his alleged word says. . .Amos 3: 6 goes ahead and makes a very bold claim saying that the bible god himself is responsible for the evil that takes place in every city. . . . This debunks all your apologetics. . . .


Where exactly does the bible say this. . .when will you guys stop lying to yourselves?. . In fact this is what the bible says about political leaders. . . .

Rom13:1 Everyone must submit himself to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God. 
Rom 13:2 Consequently, he who rebels against the authority is rebelling against what God has instituted, and those who do so will bring judgment on themselves. 
Rom 13:3 For rulers hold no terror for those who do right, but for those who do wrong. Do you want to be free from fear of the one in authority? Then do what is right and he will commend you. 
Rom 13:4 For he is God's servant to do you good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for he does not bear the sword for nothing. He is God's servant, an agent of wrath to bring punishment on the wrongdoer. 
Rom 13:5 Therefore, it is necessary to submit to the authorities, not only because of possible punishment but also because of conscience. 
Rom 13:6 This is also why you pay taxes, for the authorities are God's servants, who give their full time to governing. 

The bible says those in authorities were put there by the bible god and should be respected no matter what. . .why then are you talking about political power. . .Personally i know that no god put people in power but why not go but what your bible says when making claims. . .

The bible does NOT say any of what you have written down at all. . . .

Every body wants this kind of utopia that is why every myth contains this heaven myth as a place where people can go and rest from the evils of this world. . . . . . . .

Do you accept this rationalization for Islam? Will you accept if moslems tell you that allah will destroy and do anything for his chosen ummah including killing and destruction of the enemies?. . .Moslems have a god who cares for them no? It is also DANGEROUS to live outside of allah's shield. . .So next time DO NOT complain if moslems kill you because they are doing what allah tells them. . .just as you believe that it is was OK for your god to order the killings and destruction of others. . . NEVER again complain if moslems go about killing for their god because they are doing exactly what their god says something which you believe is ONLY right if it is your god that commands it. . . .what makes the murders that were sanctioned by your god right and that sanctioned b allah wrong? are they not both gods?. . .Stop complaining when moslems kill you people ever again because they are doing what their own god tells themto do. . .

Where is your scientific evidence, historical evidence methods which show that yahweh is not a myth. . .

I thought I politely asked u to shut up?

Deep Sight:

Brilliant, Huxley! I demand that we should not respond any further to this thread as Huxley has conclusively proved that Noetic's God does not exist.

But please let's note that even if "God" as defined by the Bible/ Quoran does not exist, this does not nullify the existence of an uncaused cause, a prime mover and core creative element for the universe. That element, which manifests attributes of intelligence and Power, is what is defined as God within the cosmological argument.

So God exists, but Noetic's god has today been put to the sword by Huxley.

Can u shed more light? I cannot make a meaning out of this

where is huxley?

So u tell me. . . .[size=16pt]what anthropological, historical, and scientific methods lead to the notion that Jehovah is a mythical person?[/size]

noetic2:

I thought I politely asked u to shut up?

Why now don't you believe in freedom of speech?. . . .

mazaje:

Why now don't you believe in freedom of speech?. . . .

I am forever an advocate of freedom of speech. . . .I also advocate maturity. . . . . I believe u saw the thread title, . . . I cannot debate with 5 of u at once. . . . huxley called for a debate let him come and defend his beliefs. , . . .why is that a problem?

I hope my posts did not come across as rude?

noetic2:

I hope my posts did not come across as rude?

Not at all. . . .I think I understand your internet personality a bit by now. . .

mazaje:

Not at all. . . .I think I understand your internet personality a bit by now. . .

enjoy ur sarcasm

Analysis of Noetic's response to Question 4:

4) Why are the 10 commandments given in Exodus 34 so vastly different from those given in Exodus 20, given that Exodus 34 were supposed to be a
replacement of those that Moses broke in Exodus 20? Did God lose his mind when it came to re-writing what he had written only a few days earlier?

Noetic's Response

1. God asked Moses to come and receive the commandments again. . . that was his purpose of ascending to the mount.

2. when moses got to the top of the mount he did something else, (due to the events that happened in previous chapters). . .in verse 8 moses worshipped God and in verse 9 of exodus 34 moses made a request from God. . . . .all that God said from verse 10 of Exodus 34 was in response to what moses requested.

3. from verse 1 we know that God asked for moses to bring up new tablets for the 10 commandments to be re-written. , . . , in verse 32-34 moses was speaking commandments which were not written on the tablets to the children of Israel.

4. It is as such deducible that the commandments in exodus 34 are as a result of the request moses made in verses 8 and 9. . .not with standing the purpose for which moses went on the mount (which was to retrieve the 10 commandments) was also achieved.

These are the Verses of Exodus 34 examined:


1 The LORD said to Moses, "Chisel out two stone tablets like the first ones, and I will write on them the words that were on the first tablets, which you broke. 2 Be ready in the morning, and then come up on Mount Sinai. Present yourself to me there on top of the mountain. 3 No one is to come with you or be seen anywhere on the mountain; not even the flocks and herds may graze in front of the mountain."



Now, look ar the highlighted words of God, viz, and I will write on them the words that were on the first tablets, which you broke. So God said he was going to write on the new tablets of stones the words THAT WERE ON THE FIRST ONE THAT MOSES BROKE.

Could these worlds be any clearer?

But Noetic claims that God gave Moses the new sets of commandments in accordance with some request Moses made in Verses 8 & 9. "It is as such deducible that the commandments in exodus 34 are as a result of the request moses made in verses 8 and 9. . .not with standing the purpose for which moses went on the mount (which was to retrieve the 10 commandments) was also achieved."

But verses 8 & 9 does not actually say that this had any bearing on the content of the commandments. These are verses 8 & 9;

8 Moses bowed to the ground at once and worshiped. 9 "O Lord, if I have found favor in your eyes," he said, "then let the Lord go with us. Although this is a stiff-necked people, forgive our wickedness and our sin, and take us as your inheritance."


Can anyone detect anything here that had bearing on the content of the commandment?


Noetic makes the following claims:

3. from verse 1 we know that God asked for moses to bring up new tablets for the 10 commandments to be re-written. , . . , in verse 32-34 moses was speaking commandments which were not written on the tablets to the children of Israel.

Noetic says verses 32 - 34 has Moses speaking the commandments "which were not written on the tablets to the children of Israel.". This is a strange statement. Let us really examine what verses 32-34 say;

32 Afterward all the Israelites came near him, and he gave them all the commands the LORD had given him on Mount Sinai. 33 When Moses finished speaking to them, he put a veil over his face. 34 But whenever he entered the LORD's presence to speak with him, he removed the veil until he came out. And when he came out and told the Israelites what he had been commanded, 35 they saw that his face was radiant. Then Moses would put the veil back over his face until he went in to speak with the LORD.

How does Noetic know that Moses was speaking about commandments "which were not written on the tablets to the children of Israel."? Where does he get this? Is he making it up.



What is interest is that Noetic does not address the question at all. I asked why the commandments in Exodus 34 bears little resemblance to those in Exodus 20, but he says nothing whatsoever relating to the discrepancy I am alluding to.

The new 10 commandments in Exodus 34 are contained in versers 10 - 26, and even a casual examination will show that these diverges drastically from those in Exodus 20:



10 Then the LORD said: "I am making a covenant with you. Before all your people I will do wonders never before done in any nation in all the world. The people you live among will see how awesome is the work that I, the LORD, will do for you. 11 Obey what I command you today. I will drive out before you the Amorites, Canaanites, Hittites, Perizzites, Hivites and Jebusites. 12 Be careful not to make a treaty with those who live in the land where you are going, or they will be a snare among you. 13 Break down their altars, smash their sacred stones and cut down their Asherah poles. 14 Do not worship any other god, for the LORD, whose name is Jealous, is a jealous God.

15 "Be careful not to make a treaty with those who live in the land; for when they prostitute themselves to their gods and sacrifice to them, they will invite you and you will eat their sacrifices. 16 And when you choose some of their daughters as wives for your sons and those daughters prostitute themselves to their gods, they will lead your sons to do the same.

17 "Do not make cast idols.

18 "Celebrate the Feast of Unleavened Bread. For seven days eat bread made without yeast, as I commanded you. Do this at the appointed time in the month of Abib, for in that month you came out of Egypt.

19 "The first offspring of every womb belongs to me, including all the firstborn males of your livestock, whether from herd or flock. 20 Redeem the firstborn donkey with a lamb, but if you do not redeem it, break its neck. Redeem all your firstborn sons.
"No one is to appear before me empty-handed.

21 "Six days you shall labor, but on the seventh day you shall rest; even during the plowing season and harvest you must rest.

22 "Celebrate the Feast of Weeks with the firstfruits of the wheat harvest, and the Feast of Ingathering at the turn of the year. 23 Three times a year all your men are to appear before the Sovereign LORD, the God of Israel. 24 I will drive out nations before you and enlarge your territory, and no one will covet your land when you go up three times each year to appear before the LORD your God.

25 "Do not offer the blood of a sacrifice to me along with anything containing yeast, and do not let any of the sacrifice from the Passover Feast remain until morning.

26 "Bring the best of the firstfruits of your soil to the house of the LORD your God.
"Do not cook a young goat in its mother's milk."





1. Thou shalt worship no other god (For the Lord is a jealous god).


2. Thou shalt make thee no molten gods.


3. The feast of unleavened bread shalt thou keep in the month when the ear is on the corn.

4. All the first-born are mine.

5. Six days shalt thou work, but on the seventh thou shalt rest.

6. Thou shalt observe the feast of weeks, even of the first fruits of the wheat harvest, and the feast of ingathering at the year's end.

7. Thou shalt not offer the blood of my sacrifice with leavened bread.

8 . The fat of my feast shall not remain all night until the morning.

9. The first of the first fruits of thy ground thou shalt bring unto the house of the Lord thy God.

10. Thou shalt not seethe a kid in its mother's milk.



My favorite of these new set of commandements is the last one (Thou shalt not seethe a kid in its mother's milk.)


So these are the commandments which were at the centre of the Ark of the Covenant, one of the most holiest of things in antiquity. These commandments replaced those given in Exodus 20. Yet there is little similarity between them.

What happen to the injunction about killing, purjury, adultery, etc? Did Noetic's God lose his mind?

this thread is confusing, the focus (as i largely expected) is solely on noetic2's answers alone. Where has huxley attempted to answer ANY question?

davidylan:

this thread is confusing, the focus (as i largely expected) is solely on noetic2's answers alone. Where has huxley attempted to answer ANY question?

What is this https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-327789.32.html#msg4603156

why dont u answer this before we proceed. . . I have answered ALL ur questions so far

[size=16pt]what anthropological, historical, and scientific methods lead to the notion that Jehovah is a mythical person?[/size]

[quote][/quote]

huxley:

Analysis of Noetic's response to Question 4:

4) Why are the 10 commandments given in Exodus 34 so vastly different from those given in Exodus 20, given that Exodus 34 were supposed to be a
replacement of those that Moses broke in Exodus 20? Did God lose his mind when it came to re-writing what he had written only a few days earlier?

Noetic's Response



These are the Verses of Exodus 34 examined:


1 The LORD said to Moses, "Chisel out two stone tablets like the first ones, and I will write on them the words that were on the first tablets, which you broke. 2 Be ready in the morning, and then come up on Mount Sinai. Present yourself to me there on top of the mountain. 3 No one is to come with you or be seen anywhere on the mountain; not even the flocks and herds may graze in front of the mountain."



Now, look ar the highlighted words of God, viz, and I will write on them the words that were on the first tablets, which you broke. So God said he was going to write on the new tablets of stones the words THAT WERE ON THE FIRST ONE THAT MOSES BROKE.

Could these worlds be any clearer?

But Noetic claims that God gave Moses the new sets of commandments in accordance with some request Moses made in Verses 8 & 9. "It is as such deducible that the commandments in exodus 34 are as a result of the request moses made in verses 8 and 9. . .not with standing the purpose for which moses went on the mount (which was to retrieve the 10 commandments) was also achieved."

But verses 8 & 9 does not actually say that this had any bearing on the content of the commandments. These are verses 8 & 9;

8 Moses bowed to the ground at once and worshiped. 9 "O Lord, if I have found favor in your eyes," he said, "then let the Lord go with us. Although this is a stiff-necked people, forgive our wickedness and our sin, and take us as your inheritance."


Can anyone detect anything here that had bearing on the content of the commandment?


Noetic makes the following claims:

Noetic says verses 32 - 34 has Moses speaking the commandments "which were not written on the tablets to the children of Israel.". This is a strange statement. Let us really examine what verses 32-34 say;

32 Afterward all the Israelites came near him, and he gave them all the commands the LORD had given him on Mount Sinai. 33 When Moses finished speaking to them, he put a veil over his face. 34 But whenever he entered the LORD's presence to speak with him, he removed the veil until he came out. And when he came out and told the Israelites what he had been commanded, 35 they saw that his face was radiant. Then Moses would put the veil back over his face until he went in to speak with the LORD.

How does Noetic know that Moses was speaking about commandments "which were not written on the tablets to the children of Israel."? Where does he get this? Is he making it up.



What is interest is that Noetic does not address the question at all. I asked why the commandments in Exodus 34 bears little resemblance to those in Exodus 20, but he says nothing whatsoever relating to the discrepancy I am alluding to.

The new 10 commandments in Exodus 34 are contained in versers 10 - 26, and even a casual examination will show that these diverges drastically from those in Exodus 20:



10 Then the LORD said: "I am making a covenant with you. Before all your people I will do wonders never before done in any nation in all the world. The people you live among will see how awesome is the work that I, the LORD, will do for you. 11 Obey what I command you today. I will drive out before you the Amorites, Canaanites, Hittites, Perizzites, Hivites and Jebusites. 12 Be careful not to make a treaty with those who live in the land where you are going, or they will be a snare among you. 13 Break down their altars, smash their sacred stones and cut down their Asherah poles. 14 Do not worship any other god, for the LORD, whose name is Jealous, is a jealous God.

15 "Be careful not to make a treaty with those who live in the land; for when they prostitute themselves to their gods and sacrifice to them, they will invite you and you will eat their sacrifices. 16 And when you choose some of their daughters as wives for your sons and those daughters prostitute themselves to their gods, they will lead your sons to do the same.

17 "Do not make cast idols.

18 "Celebrate the Feast of Unleavened Bread. For seven days eat bread made without yeast, as I commanded you. Do this at the appointed time in the month of Abib, for in that month you came out of Egypt.

19 "The first offspring of every womb belongs to me, including all the firstborn males of your livestock, whether from herd or flock. 20 Redeem the firstborn donkey with a lamb, but if you do not redeem it, break its neck. Redeem all your firstborn sons.
"No one is to appear before me empty-handed.

21 "Six days you shall labor, but on the seventh day you shall rest; even during the plowing season and harvest you must rest.

22 "Celebrate the Feast of Weeks with the firstfruits of the wheat harvest, and the Feast of Ingathering at the turn of the year. 23 Three times a year all your men are to appear before the Sovereign LORD, the God of Israel. 24 I will drive out nations before you and enlarge your territory, and no one will covet your land when you go up three times each year to appear before the LORD your God.

25 "Do not offer the blood of a sacrifice to me along with anything containing yeast, and do not let any of the sacrifice from the Passover Feast remain until morning.

26 "Bring the best of the firstfruits of your soil to the house of the LORD your God.
"Do not cook a young goat in its mother's milk."





1. Thou shalt worship no other god (For the Lord is a jealous god).


2. Thou shalt make thee no molten gods.


3. The feast of unleavened bread shalt thou keep in the month when the ear is on the corn.

4. All the first-born are mine.

5. Six days shalt thou work, but on the seventh thou shalt rest.

6. Thou shalt observe the feast of weeks, even of the first fruits of the wheat harvest, and the feast of ingathering at the year's end.

7. Thou shalt not offer the blood of my sacrifice with leavened bread.

8 . The fat of my feast shall not remain all night until the morning.

9. The first of the first fruits of thy ground thou shalt bring unto the house of the Lord thy God.

10. Thou shalt not seethe a kid in its mother's milk.



My favorite of these new set of commandements is the last one (Thou shalt not seethe a kid in its mother's milk.)


So these are the commandments which were at the centre of the Ark of the Covenant, one of the most holiest of things in antiquity. These commandments replaced those given in Exodus 20. Yet there is little similarity between them.

What happen to the injunction about killing, purjury, adultery, etc? Did Noetic's God lose his mind?

is this not pure folly? is it not obvious that moses started a new conversation with God in verse 8 and 9. . . . . .why is this so hard for u to understand?

Huxley, are you ok? You seem unnaturally passionate about religion.

[size=16pt]what anthropological, historical, and scientific methods lead to the notion that Jehovah is a mythical person?[/size]

what is huxley afraid of? these are his words. . .why cant he answer?. . . is huxley a COWARD?

noetic2:

why dont u answer this before we proceed. . . I have answered ALL your questions so far

[size=16pt]what anthropological, historical, and scientific methods lead to the notion that Jehovah is a mythical person?[/size]

That is not what I said.  This is actually what I said:

In the case of Jehovah, we examine the narrative about God using a number of methods - anthropological, historiogical, and scientific, etc, etc.  Evidence from these diverse disciplines suggests the Jehovah is a mythological figure from antiquity, just like Thor, Zeus, Wotan.  On this basis I have no choice but to disbelieve in the existence of Jevohah.