promise10:

Please, stop this delusion, it doesn't work that way!

Please, point out the contradiction you are talking about in our bible.

If what he said is contradicting with what the bible says, it is just his ignorance which shouldn't be taken serious. But, if the contradiction is between verse and verse, would you mind pointing it out?

promise10:

You always like to ignore the truth and establish a laughable idea on a lie. But why are you insincere?

Sincerity was my way out of being an agnostic. Just be sincere!

who told you that abraham was not good enough?

Please, stop deluding yourself!

God made a covenant with abraham, of which his ETERNAL descendants were part of.

Now, God NEVER ABOLISHED the abrahamic covenants. If you have to prove otherwise, you can go ahead.

Under Abrahamic covenant, God freely gives his people UNCONDITIONALLY FOR THE SAKE OF ABRAHAM'S FAITH IN HIM and it was an ABSOLUTE GRACE. And this happen BEFORE the law. The law was asked by the Israelites then, and God gave them the law, which they agreed to keep UNCONDITIONALLY out of their (I think)self-righteous blindness. At the end of the day, all failed at keeping of the law. See, God knew they would fail, but BECAUSE they asked for it, God gave it to them.

When the law came, the dividends of the abrahamic covenant became CONDITIONAL. Because, you have to obey ALL to receive. And even if you keep all but one, you would receive a curse. Remember, they AGREED by themselves to take the responsibility of the law and it's curse.

So, because NO MAN can keep all, all men were under curse. Now, God in his mercy and love created an incarnate son of himself and MANIFESTED via mary TO TAKE AWAY THE PUNISHMENT AND CURSE OF THE LAW, by suffering for it ON OUR BEHALF. So, now whosoever that believes that his sins and curses(past, present and future) has been suffered by Jesus ON HIS BEHALF, shall be saved.

And through this faith, we have an UNCONDITIONAL FREE ACCESS to the beneficiary of the abrahamic covenant.

Hope you will get it.

promise10:

Please don't think we can be thinking about the same thing.

I am talking about a divine nature while you are talking about human nature.

God is my father through christ Jesus, the seed of abraham. Abraham is the father OF FAITH of which I walk by faith. So all who walk by the faith of christ attracts all the promises made by God to abraham.

Muafrika2:

Did u miss the part about the covenants being two, to two different people? Rhetorical question.

You just have a list of unreasonable points to make that you are forcing into issues here. So you want me to say God changed? I am trying hard to find your point.

So God made 2 covenants because he was not sure of one lolz
U are the one saying God changed but u are too dumb to figure out how.

donnie:


I have read through posts by promise10 and found them to be scripturally accurate. Its not easy to see if you are a bible student.

donnie:
No Christian should shy away of judging whatever he or she believes according to the scriptures, regardless of how long he/she has held such beliefs.

promise10:


1.Old and new are products of abrahamic covenant.


2.The difference btw old and new is that the old was conditional via keeping of the law.


3. In the new, the old was renewed by the abolishing of the law which made our dividend an UNCONDITIONAL one. (If you've read preceding posts, differentiate this from my explanation.


4. Under the law, it was conditional, under grace it was conditional. (This I can find basis so don't bother.)

promise10:


Please stop! (Ignore)

[color=#000099]5. You have to understand what abrahamic covenant is and christ's role towards salvation.


5 A. [color=#000099]God had a covenant with abraham, and not Jesus. As Jesus is the incarnate son of God.


But, bro you are really messing things up, and that atheist is here making fun of you.
Bro, wake up and start reading your bible!(Ignore)[/color]

promise10:


...

6. God made a covenant with abraham, of which his ETERNAL descendants were part of.


7. Now, God NEVER ABOLISHED the abrahamic covenants. If you have to prove otherwise, you can go ahead.(you first need to establish the scriptural basis of this allegation)

8. Under Abrahamic covenant, God freely gives his people UNCONDITIONALLY FOR THE SAKE OF ABRAHAM'S FAITH IN HIM and it was an ABSOLUTE GRACE. (What! )

9. And this happen BEFORE the law.

10. The law was asked by the Israelites then, ( they asked? Show me where)
...

11. When the law came, the dividends of the abrahamic covenant became CONDITIONAL.
(Hold on. Are you saying the laws of Moses converted the Abrahamic covenant from one form to another? I hope you can show this in scripture, )

...

12. ... Now, God in his mercy and love created an incarnate son of himself ... And through this faith, we have an UNCONDITIONAL FREE ACCESS to the beneficiary of the abrahamic covenant.
...[/color]

ValentineMary:

So God made 2 covenants because he was not sure of one lolz
U are the one saying God changed but u are too dumb to figure out how.

petra1:

@Gombs ,

The new covenant by the blood of christ is between who and who?

Muafrika2:




Well Donnie, bible scholar; Thank God you are here.

Maybe you can help promise10 (and I) with this. This are his posts. Support them with scriptures point by point... you can go back to the original point through the links to the posts...

I'll break them down to points








Promise10 feel free to help you brother in arms here. Scriptures please. Not human theories. Take all the time you need. Or we can directly embark on those vicious cycles I refered to. Your angry friend Gombs can help too. Looking forward to having my limited knowledge enriched

Gombs:
We’re Children Of The Covenant

Ye are the children of the prophets, and of the covenant which God made with our fathers, saying unto Abraham, And in thy seed shall all the kindreds of the earth be blessed (Acts 3:25)

Gombs:
One Bible character that’s been very popular and important through the ages is Abraham. What made him so relevant in God’s scheme of things? It’s the covenant God made with him. Abraham was God’s covenant friend. Now, I know there’re Christians who say they have a covenant with God. No, you don’t have any covenant with God.

Gombs:
Abraham had a covenant with God, but we’re not in that covenant.

Gombs:
Who are we?

We’re the seed of Abraham: “For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus. For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ. There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus. And if ye be Christ’s, then are ye Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise” (Galatians 3:26-29)

Gombs:
As Abraham’s seed, we’re the children of the covenant that God had with him. This is really amazing! Let me illustrate further. Imagine a husband and his wife in a marriage covenant. Would their child or children be part of their covenant? Absolutely not! Their child would be the product of the covenant

Gombs:
Books have been written about our covenant with God, but really, we’re not in covenant with God

Gombs:
The danger of this misleading teaching is that while praying and trying to get results on the basis that you’re in covenant with God, you’re merely trying to get what you already have. And you’ll never get it that way. There’re things people pray and struggle for that shouldn’t be, if only they knew who they are, and their positioning in Christ. We’re children of the covenant!

Gombs:
That's why we teach...

Gombs:
If you didn't know, be humble and learn. Check the scriptures I'd these be true... Stop whining.

Meanwhile, don't derail. Do you have a covenant with God? If yes... Which? And when?

Thanks

Gombs:
Christ is the seed of Abraham

Gombs:
You don't have a covenant with God

petra1:
@Gombs,

The new covenant by the blood of christ is between who and who?

promise10:
The new convenant is a RENEWED covenant between Abraham and God. Through which we receive grace freely

Gombs:


Clearly, Jesus paid the ransom for our lives to God. That ransom was His own life, the shedding of His own blood, a sacrifice. Due to His sacrificial death, each person on earth has the opportunity to accept that gift of atonement and be forgiven by God. For without His death, God's Law would still need to be satisfied—by our own death.

It wasn't a negotiations in my opinion. Besides, do you think God had a covenant with Jesus?

petra1:
Well we have to go back to the Old Testament and check the prophecies made concerning this new covenant . Let me start with Jeremiah . I will publish the rest as I can remember .

Jeremiah 31:31-33

donnie:


1.Old and new are products of abrahamic covenant.

*********************************

Galatians 4:22-28
For it is written that Abraham had two sons, one by a slave woman and one by a free woman.
But the son of the slave was born according to the flesh, while the son of the free woman was born through promise.
Now this may be interpreted allegorically: these women are two covenants. One is from Mount Sinai, bearing children for slavery; she is Hagar.
Now Hagar is Mount Sinai in Arabia; she corresponds to the present Jerusalem, for she is in slavery with her children.
But the Jerusalem above is free, and she is our mother.
For it is written, Rejoice, O barren one who does not bear; break forth and cry aloud, you who are not in labor! For the children of the desolate one will be more than those of the one who has a husband.
Now you, brothers, like Isaac, are children of promise.

3:19 Why then the law? It was added because of transgressions, until the offspring should come to whom the promise had been made, and it was put in place through angels by an intermediary.


2.The difference btw old and new is that the old was conditional via keeping of the law.

****************************
Find answer in text provided above.

Muafrika2:


Don't you think the bolded came about through covenant?
...
Am not sure we are on the same page regarding the meaning of the word covenant.

Definition of covenant in jewish cultute (web);

An agreement between two contracting parties, originally sealed with blood;

3. In the new, the old was renewed by the abolishing of the law which made our dividend an UNCONDITIONAL one. (If you've read preceding posts, differentiate this from my explanation.

*****************************
Well, that's not my business.

Muafrika2:


Christ is the offering of the Covenant. But Christ by becoming man was also standing as a man, a firstborn of the generation that he negotiated for.

He is the offering, and the high priest too... You remember the role of the High priest in the Laws of Moses, It is he who went into the holiest place once a year to pray for the people.


Heb 8:1 Now of the things which we have spoken this is the sum: We have such an high priest, who is set on the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in the heavens;

Christ, as the high priest has "mediated" a better covenant for us..


Heb 8:6 But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises.

For Him to mediate, he was talking on behalf of men, as the firstborn. And a beneficiary of the terms he negotiated; One of those benefits he got is reconciliation of men to Himself...

Collosians 1: 21"..., yet now hath he reconciled
22 In the body of his flesh through death (the blood covenant), to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in his sight:

So Christ, together with the men he died for, is a beneficiary of the mediated terms of the new covenant. He will inherit the kingdoms, with the saint.

And there are promises in the covenant too.

- Inheritance of the land(this time, not just from the Euphrates to the sea like Abraham, but the entire earth). And a sit over the principalities.

- inheritance of the people (reconciliation of men to Christ).

Christ is the seed of Abraham. ..

Which means he inherited after Abraham. But you will agree with me too that Abraham's blessings could only be manifested physically until Christ who opened the door into spiritual worship and spiritual gifts. Abraham's blessings are perfected in Christ's covenant.


Heb 8:7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second.

Christ was directly a descendant, a seed of Abraham, to whom God said, he would give the land of Canaanites, and that his descendants would be as the sand. Physicallly/in reality, the house of Abraham has expanded beyond the middle East.

Christ is carrying forth by the power of the same covenant, and used it's strength to negotiate a better, spiritual inheritance that is different from the first one which excluded most of us as gentiles. And which was regal and imperfect. We could not inherit of Abraham as gentiles.

The Abrahamic covenant is an EVERLASTING covenant.
Genesis 17:7 And I will establish my covenant between me and thee and thy seed after thee in their generations for an everlasting covenant, to be a God unto thee, and to thy seed after thee.

Genesis 17:19 And God said, Sarah thy wife shall bear thee a son indeed; and thou shalt call his name Isaac: and I will establish my covenant with him for an everlasting covenant, and with his seed after him.

8. Under Abrahamic covenant, God freely gives his people UNCONDITIONALLY FOR THE SAKE OF ABRAHAM'S FAITH IN HIM and it was an ABSOLUTE GRACE. (What! )

Galatians 3:11 But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith.

Galatians 3:13 Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:

Galatians 3:14 That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.

9. And this happen BEFORE the law.

***********************************
Yes the Abrahamic covenant was BEFORE the law. You didn't know that?

10. The law was asked by the Israelites then, ( they asked? Show me where)

They asked the same question in the bible. The Abrahamic covenant cannot be converted, it is everlasting but the law made access to its blessings conditional upon obedience to the law.
Galatians 3:17 And this I say, that the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in Christ, the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot disannul, that it should make the promise of none effect.

12. ... Now, God in his mercy and love created an incarnate son of himself ... And through this faith, we have an UNCONDITIONAL FREE ACCESS to the beneficiary of the abrahamic covenant.

*******************************
You will understand this if you have followed me without pride in your heart.


Romans 4:2 If Abraham had God's approval because of something he did, he would have had a reason to brag. But he could not brag to God about it.

Romans 4:4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.

Romans 4:5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

Romans 4:13 For the promise, that he should be the heir of the world, was not to Abraham, or to his seed, through the law, but through the righteousness of faith.

Romans 4:16 Therefore, the promise is based on faith so that it can be a gift. Consequently, the promise is guaranteed for every descendant, not only for those who are descendants by obeying Moses' Teachings but also for those who are descendants by believing as Abraham did. He is the father of all of us,

Galatians 3:13 Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:

Galatians 3:14 That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.

Galatians 3:29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

Muafrika2:
This is so much better.

In total agreement concerning the allegory and prophetic nature of that scripture. That there are in fact two people, two different relationships born/beneficiaries of the same covenant, Is what I get from this.


I see what you are saying here. He's referring to children of the promise/covenant. Who will be "called" at a future time. How did this calling happen? With Christ of Course. The phrase, "from Egypt I called my son" is also used in reference to Christ too. Because His was a very purposeful calling. He came with a mission and a methodology of accomplishing it.This is what I was explaining in the posts you expressly don't care to read. As much as we like to think of God as an easygoing buddy, the end justifies the means kind of person, nothing can be further from the truth.


You will also agree, I hope that Isaac had two sons. One of them, Jacob, had 12, out of which Tribes, only one, Judah gave us the Messiah. I belive that is the offering your next scripture here refers to... as the one offspring. What happened to Esau/Edom? What happened to the other 11 tribes? They are clearly not part of this future calling. But they were blessed. Did you know that Israel did not touch the descendants of Esau when they came to inherit canaan? So the promise cut through the physical too. Unless you contest that Abraham's children were blessed through that covenant.

So explain how it went from inheriting the land of the Amorites, making Edom and Ishmael a great nation to this as you wrote above.










Am at a loss here. I thought you guys are saying there is no new covenant So is there a covenant or not

But anyway. I submit to you, that the laws of Moses came with another covenant. New conditions, new sacrifices, new people, new promises. This is why I took the liberty to try and define the meaning of the word covenant before...


Do you agree with that definition of "covenant"? If not, what do you believe a covenant is?





We were doing so well. That's what scholars do. You differentiate your interpretation from that which you think is wrongly perceived.

The last question, which you have avoided, concerns the transition beyeeen the old and new testaments. This is one of the posts in which I answered that question ... which got your friends here wild;





5. You have to understand what abrahamic covenant is and christ's role towards salvation.
5 A. [color=#000099] God had a covenant with abraham, and not Jesus. As Jesus is the incarnate son of God.
But, bro you are really messing things up, and that atheist is here making fun of you.
Bro, wake up and start reading your bible!(Ignore)
promise10 :
...
6. God made a covenant with abraham, of which his ETERNAL descendants were part of.

7. Now, God NEVER ABOLISHED the abrahamic covenants. If you have to prove otherwise, you can go ahead.(you first need to establish the scriptural basis of this allegation)

*******************************************

I think the difference here is that of interpretation. This sound clearly as a reference to another covenant that God was going to establish with the seed of Abraham. Which he did later. That's why the terms of that new covenant which you have admitted are different, were revealed much later.




***************************************
Galatians 3:6-9 Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.
Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham.
And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed.
So then they which be of faith are blessed with faithful Abraham. For the sake of agreeing to disagree, I'll give you this one. But remember the circumcision? It was the sign of Abraham's covenant. Remember the tithes and interactions with melchizedech? The sacrifices, including his son? The spiritual atmosphere even at his time was different from time after Christ.

Galatians 3:11 But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith.

Galatians 3:13 Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:

Galatians 3:14 That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.Of course,


9. And this happen BEFORE the law.

***********************************
Yes the Abrahamic covenant was BEFORE the law. You didn't know that?


Galatians 3:17 This is what I mean: The laws given to Moses 430 years after God had already put his promise to Abraham into effect didn't cancel the promise to Abraham.

Galatians 3:18 If we have to gain the inheritance by following those laws, then it no longer comes to us because of the promise. However, God freely gave the inheritance to Abraham through a promise.



10. The law was asked by the Israelites then, ( they asked? Show me where)



11. When the law came, the dividends of the covenant became CONDITIONAL.
(Hold on. Are you saying the laws of Moses converted the Abrahamic covenant from one form to another? I hope you can show this in scripture, )
The law in my understanding is not limited to the time and days of Israel. But I'll let this go.
*******************************
They asked the same question in the bible. The Abrahamic covenant cannot be converted, it is everlasting but the law made access to its blessings conditional upon obedience to the law.
Galatians 3:17 And this I say, that the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in Christ, the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot disannul, that it should make the promise of none effect.

12. ... Now, God in his mercy and love created an incarnate son of himself ... And through this faith, we have an UNCONDITIONAL FREE ACCESS to the beneficiary of the abrahamic covenant.
My response to this is my first quote of my previous post.

let's discuss the unconditional free access to abrahamic covenant. I believe that is the destination that this thread was created to go to. Remember Christ's word to Israelites, about that access...

Not even belief?


John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

*******************************
You will understand this if you have followed me without pride in your heart.


Romans 4:2 If Abraham had God's approval because of something he did, he would have had a reason to brag. But he could not brag to God about it.

Abraham did do something, he believed.. and it was counted to him for righteousness

Romans 4:3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.


Romans 4:4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.

Romans 4:5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

Romans 4:13 For the promise, that he should be the heir of the world, was not to Abraham, or to his seed, through the law, but through the righteousness of faith.

Romans 4:16 Therefore, the promise is based on faith so that it can be a gift. Consequently, the promise is guaranteed for every descendant, not only for those who are descendants by obeying Moses' Teachings but also for those who are descendants by believing as Abraham did. He is the father of all of us,

Galatians 3:13 Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:

Galatians 3:14 That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.

Galatians 3:29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.



That we enjoy the blessings of Abraham is not a contention for me, never has been. The brazen assertion that Christ or we are not in covenant with God is. This is how you identify a covenant:

~ a sacrifice/living sacrifice
~ Binding conditions/belief
~ consequences of performance and non performance

Is Christianity based on such? If so its a covenant.

petra1:


Well we have to go back to the Old Testament and check the prophecies made concerning this new covenant . Let me start with Jeremiah . I will publish the rest as I can remember .


Jeremiah 31:31-33
Behold, the days come, saith the Lord,
that I will make a new covenant
with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:
Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers
in the day that I took them by the hand
to bring them out of the land of Egypt;
which my covenant they brake,
although I was an husband unto them, saith the Lord:
But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel;
After those days, saith the Lord,
I will put my law in their inward parts,
and write it in their hearts;
and will be their God,
and they shall be my people.

donnie:


What is all this? It appears you are more interested in engaging someone in an argument than you are to discover truth. Why struggle to make the scriptures say what that are not. Why try to make the scriptures look difficult or contradictory. They are not at all.

I managed to respond to your queries, not minding how many or how scattered you presented them, not because I was prepared for long endless argument a but just to let you know that promise10 was arguing based on scripture.
And now you continue, quoting me, yourself, back and forth and trying to reason out divine revelation.

If you want a response from me, take it one at a time. And please be clear about whether you want to learn or you are simply putting forth yet another argument. I do not want to go on an endless fruitless journey especially when someone is requesting for knowledge in the guise of argument.

To begin to interpret scripture, you must first have the basic foundational knowledge of the gospel of Jesus Christ.

Abraham had seed according to the flesh - his natural descendants and Seed according to the promise- Christ, the seed of Abraham.

Romans 9:7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.

Hebrews 11:18 Of whom it was said, That in Isaac shall thy seed be called:


Notice the above scriptures do not say "Isaac" shall thy seed be called but "in Isaac" shall thy seed be called.

Meaning that even though the natural descendants of Abraham were and are still blessed above all nations of the earth, there is the promised seed -Christ and all who are His to whom the promises were actually made.

No wonder the scriptures refer to the Old testament as a shadow of the new.


Colossians 2:16-17
Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:
Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ.

Hebrews 10:1 For the law having a shadow of the coming good things--not the very image of the matters, every year, by the same sacrifices that they offer continually, is never able to make perfect those coming near,



So there was 1) Abraham, then 2) the law and the old testament, then 3) Christ and the New testament.

So God cut a covenant with Abraham. The law of Moses with the old testament is based on the Abrahamic covenant and so is the new Testament based on the same covenant.

The New testament was necessitated by the inability of the Old to make one righteousness and perfect (even though the law in itself was holy).

Moses was the mediator of the Old testament based on the law. Attaining Righteousness and enjoying the blessings of Abraham was by works.

Jesus was the mediator of the New testament based on grace. Attaining righteousness and enjoying the blessings of Abraham is by faith.

This is the summary of all the scriptures I quoted. No need to quote more. This is the message of the entire bible. This is the picture you must have to understand and interpret the scriptures properly.

donnie:


What is all this? It appears you are more interested in engaging someone in an argument than you are to discover truth. Why struggle to make the scriptures say what that are not. Why try to make the scriptures look difficult or contradictory. They are not at all.

I managed to respond to your queries, not minding how many or how scattered you presented them, not because I was prepared for long endless argument a but just to let you know that promise10 was arguing based on scripture.
And now you continue, quoting me, yourself, back and forth and trying to reason out divine revelation.

If you want a response from me, take it one at a time. And please be clear about whether you want to learn or you are simply putting forth yet another argument. I do not want to go on an endless fruitless journey especially when someone is requesting for knowledge in the guise of argument.

To begin to interpret scripture, you must first have the basic foundational knowledge of the gospel of Jesus Christ.

Abraham had seed according to the flesh - his natural descendants and Seed according to the promise- Christ, the seed of Abraham.

Romans 9:7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.

Hebrews 11:18 Of whom it was said, That in Isaac shall thy seed be called:


Notice the above scriptures do not say "Isaac" shall thy seed be called but "in Isaac" shall thy seed be called.

Meaning that even though the natural descendants of Abraham were and are still blessed above all nations of the earth, there is the promised seed -Christ and all who are His to whom the promises were actually made.

No wonder the scriptures refer to the Old testament as a shadow of the new.


Colossians 2:16-17
Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:
Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ.

Hebrews 10:1 For the law having a shadow of the coming good things--not the very image of the matters, every year, by the same sacrifices that they offer continually, is never able to make perfect those coming near,



So there was 1) Abraham, then 2) the law and the old testament, then 3) Christ and the New testament.

So God cut a covenant with Abraham. The law of Moses with the old testament is based on the Abrahamic covenant and so is the new Testament based on the same covenant.

The New testament was necessitated by the inability of the Old to make one righteousness and perfect (even though the law in itself was holy).

Moses was the mediator of the Old testament based on the law. Attaining Righteousness and enjoying the blessings of Abraham was by works.

Jesus was the mediator of the New testament based on grace. Attaining righteousness and enjoying the blessings of Abraham is by faith.

This is the summary of all the scriptures I quoted. No need to quote more. This is the message of the entire bible. This is the picture you must have to understand and interpret the scriptures properly.

Ken4Christ:
I will love to make my contribution to this thread perhaps that might bring clarity to the subject in discussion.

God started his plan to bless the world through Abraham. He made a promise to him and confirmed it with an oath. "And said, By myself have I sworn, saith the LORD, for because thou hast done this thing, and hast not withheld thy son, thine only son:That in blessing I will bless thee, and in multiplying I will multiply thy seed as the stars of the heaven, and as the sand which is upon the sea shore; and thy seed shall possess the gate of his enemies; And in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed; because thou hast obeyed my voice." Genesis 22:16-18

The covenant Abraham entered with God was not connected to the global promise. It has to do with the land of Canaan. Abraham wanted to have an assurance that the land of Canaan will be his. Then, God cut a blood Covenant with Abraham. Genesis 15:7-18.

Before the promise God made to Abraham came into fulfillment, God entered into a covenant with the Jews that brought in the Law of Moses. This is what we refer to as the Old Covenant.

This Old Covenant was only to last until the promise God made to Abraham came to fulfillment through Christ. Galatians 3:18-25.

So, when Christ came, he had to end the Old Covenant through his death. When he rose again, a New Covenant was established with the nation of Israel. However, the nation of Israel rejected Christ and God extended his arms of salvation to the Gentiles.

The conclusion here is this, the Jews have a New Covenant with Christ but the Gentiles just became recipient of the promise God made to Abraham. We, Gentiles don't have a New Covenant because we never had an old one. But the Jews had an Old Covenant and therefore also a New one.

So, it will be more correct to say that we (formerly called Gentiles) are not in a Covenant relationship with God. We are born into the family of God. We are sons in the house. We are the recipient of the promise God made to Abraham.

The Jews who have a new Covenant with God are even ignorant of it. They are in partial blindness because of the Law of Moses they still embrace till date. However, they also will be delivered from this blindness in the near future and enjoy the liberty of sons. Then, they also will become recipient of the promise God made to Abraham.

"For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob. For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins ". Romans 11:25-27

Gombs:


We can all see God was referring to the covenant with Moses... A covenant Jesus replaced properly.

Now, These two covenants are other under that of Abraham, for without Abraham, there would have been no covenant with Israel.

Now, my question is, did God enter a covenant with Jesus? If yes, scriptures will be greatly Appreciated.

Muafrika2:
If you can't be challenged without getting worked up, step aside and stop masquerading as a bible teacher. You have no reason to engage me. And I have even less.

That's the problem with having defending a borrowed doctrine. And why I consider all extreme grace preachers short on reason.

nwamehn:

I've followed ur discussions here but I'm kind of still confused regarding certain assertions u have made:
1. U said here that we had no other covenant with God aside Abraham and that we are products of that Abrahamic covenant but I want to ask u, what does Exodus 24:7-8 then imply if the children of Israel didn't enter another covenant with God different from the Abrahamic covenant?

2. U also admitted here that Jesus had a covenant which u also said that abolished the old one established by Moses, can u please tell me who Jesus had that new covenant with if not God?

Pls, I really need to get ur exact points more clearly.

petra1:
Well we have to go back to the Old Testament and check the prophecies made concerning this new covenant . Let me start with Jeremiah . I will publish the rest as I can remember .

Jeremiah 31:31-33

Gombs:
We can all see God was referring to the covenant with Moses... A covenant Jesus replaced properly

Gombs:
Now, These two covenants are other under that of Abraham, for without Abraham, there would have been no covenant with Israel

Gombs:
Now, my question is, did God enter a covenant with Jesus? If yes, scriptures will be greatly Appreciated.

MuttleyLaff:


In Jeremiah 31:31-33, God was getting ready and making preparation to get rid of the Mosaic Covenant (i.e. physical and law) as it will no more be wanted or needed
and the Covenant of Christ aka Promised Covenant (i.e. spiritual and grace) will take its place

Whether with or without Abraham, a new covenant is a new covenant

Mind you recognise the Abrahamic Covenant, the Mosaic Covenant and the Covenant of Christ aka Promised Covenant are individual covenants with their own merits

The Abrahamic Covenant is an eternal covenant, the Mosaic Covenant became out of date and obsolete, and the Covenant of Christ aka Promised Covenant is a new covenant with a special redemptive nature making it able to stand on its own

You've been trying play hardball on this issue by repeatedly asking ''did God enter a covenant with Jesus''
Well, if you insist on wanting to play hardball, we can play that way by giving you Genesis 17:10

This is my covenant, which ye shall keep, between me and you and thy seed after thee;
[size=18pt]Every man child among you shall be circumcised[/size]
- Genesis 17:10

Very soon, you'll be asking where is trinity written in the scripture

Ken4Christ:
I will love to make my contribution to this thread perhaps that might bring clarity to the subject in discussion.

God started his plan to bless the world through Abraham. He made a promise to him and confirmed it with an oath. "And said, By myself have I sworn, saith the LORD, for because thou hast done this thing, and hast not withheld thy son, thine only son:That in blessing I will bless thee, and in multiplying I will multiply thy seed as the stars of the heaven, and as the sand which is upon the sea shore; and thy seed shall possess the gate of his enemies; And in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed; because thou hast obeyed my voice." Genesis 22:16-18

The covenant Abraham entered with God was not connected to the global promise. It has to do with the land of Canaan. Abraham wanted to have an assurance that the land of Canaan will be his. Then, God cut a blood Covenant with Abraham. Genesis 15:7-18.

Before the promise God made to Abraham came into fulfillment, God entered into a covenant with the Jews that brought in the Law of Moses. This is what we refer to as the Old Covenant.

This Old Covenant was only to last until the promise God made to Abraham came to fulfillment through Christ. Galatians 3:18-25.

So, when Christ came, he had to end the Old Covenant through his death. When he rose again, a New Covenant was established with the nation of Israel. However, the nation of Israel rejected Christ and God extended his arms of salvation to the Gentiles.

The conclusion here is this, the Jews have a New Covenant with Christ but the Gentiles just became recipient of the promise God made to Abraham. We, Gentiles don't have a New Covenant because we never had an old one. But the Jews had an Old Covenant and therefore also a New one.

So, it will be more correct to say that we (formerly called Gentiles) are not in a Covenant relationship with God. We are born into the family of God. We are sons in the house. We are the recipient of the promise God made to Abraham.

The Jews who have a new Covenant with God are even ignorant of it. They are in partial blindness because of the Law of Moses they still embrace till date. However, they also will be delivered from this blindness in the near future and enjoy the liberty of sons. Then, they also will become recipient of the promise God made to Abraham.

"For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob. For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins ". Romans 11:25-27

Gombs:


I've sorely tried to avoid your posts... I hope this is the last on this thread.

Did you read what you just typed? So, then Abraham’s covenant was truncated or superceded? When? How?

Why was there moses' covenant in the first place? Why was there a need to replace it? Does it then mean the Abrahamic covenant had flaws? Didn't you read the law was instituted because of transgressions till the seed whom the promise was (notice the singular) made should come?

Wrong. It's all based on the promise! Go read your Bible

You must be joking. So, this was the covenant God had with Jesus?

I don't have time to joke around with you... That's why I avoid your posts initially.

Cheers.

Gombs:


Jesus' covenant of which you're a partaker of was a replacement of the covenant with Moses, both of which was a result of the covenant of God with Abraham.

A Christian does not have any covenant with God, we rather are a result of the Abrahamic covenant, Christ being the seed of Abraham, therfore we're heirs according to the promise.

Galatians 3 from verse 16 till 29 has these answers.


Gal 3:16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.

Gal 3:19 Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator.

Look at verse 19...the law was added (was only added) because of transgressions till Jesus should come (Jesus was in the front page of discussion from day 1), whom Abraham’s promise was made... Understand now? Jesus' new covenant was a result of that God had with Abraham, replacing that with Moses which was instituted to curb transgressions.




I already told you.... Jesus' covenant was an offshoot of Abraham's, read that book of Jeremiah posted above. God already said what Abraham’s seed was and will do. Now, Moses covenant came, and the covenant couldn’t hold, Jesus came and fixed it.

Now, if you said Jesus had a covenant with God, God lied when He said the law was there till the seed who the promise was made came... And it'd mean God struck a new covenant with Jesus (His Word) in heaven... That'd be a scam then.

The covenant Jesus had in His blood was a replacement of Moses' law, and a resemblance of what Abraham did that bolstered the covenant.

Gen 22

16 And said, By myself have I sworn, saith the LORD, for because thou hast done this thing, and hast not withheld thy son, thine only son:

17 That in blessing I will bless thee, and in multiplying I will multiply thy seed as the stars of the heaven, and as the sand which is upon the sea shore; and thy seed shall possess the gate of his enemies; note

18 And in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed; because thou hast obeyed my voice.



Now let's go back to Galatians 3 verse 17 and 18,I'd use kjv version

And this I say, that the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in Christ, the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot disannul, that it should make the promise of none effect.

18 For if the inheritance be of the law, it is no more of promise: but God gave it to Abraham by promise.


I pray you understand what Paul's saying here. Paul's saying... The covenant was before God in Christ... The law could not disannul it... God gave this inheritance by promise to Abraham, this was fulfilled in Christ, of whom we all are partakers of, if we believe in Christ, hence the promises are ours today.

In summary, Christ was there when the covenant with Abraham was made, and it'd be unrighteous for God to strike another covenant with Jesus (His Word), thereby truncating His covenant with Abraham. Jesus was the seed being referred to all along in the Abrahamic covenant.



No Wahala

nwamehn:


I think I can understand some things from this ur post:
1. Moses + the people of Israel and Jesus' covenants were offshoots of the original Abrahamic covenant.
2. Jesus was even there at the establishment of that Abrahamic covenant so it would sound somehow saying that God had to strike another covenant with him later on whereas the Abrahamic covenant hasn't been abolished.

But there ar two things u didn't treat in ur post, I apologise if I'm asking too much:
1. Covenant means an agreement between two or more parties. U believe that Jesus established a covenant called the new covenant which both of us agree that it's an offshoot of the Abrahamic covenant. If Jesus didn't have the covenant with God, who exactly was the other party involved in the covenant? Or will it be right for us to conclude that what Jesus established on earth wasn't a covenant but maybe something else, like a fulfilment of an already established thing or something of that nature, because a covenant can't be between only one person, there must be a second person?

2. Exodus 24:7-8 says that God established a covenant with the people of Israel, does it mean that Exodus 24:7-8 isn't entirely correct for saying that "GOD HAD A COVENANT WITH THE ISRAELITES"?

Perhaps the confusion I'm having now might just be due to the meaning of the word covenant and it's usage in the Bible.

Gombs:




Borrowed doctrine! Yours is what? Certified?

Yet you said Abraham’s covenant is spent, and can't see how Jesus' covenant was a replacement to Moses' both of which came from Abraham.

You are claiming you have a covenant with God, you can't tell me how and when. You said Jesus' covenant was sealed with blood, I asked you to show one Scripture that remotely said that God entered a covenant with Jesus, you're yet to do so...

Funny fellow