dgreatrock:

It is yes and no

1. Yes= If you are saved and you maintain your relationship with the Lord, yes you are saved for life

2. No= If you were saved and did not follow the Lord and allow the things of this world to cloud your eyes and you stray away, if you die without reconcilling with the Lord, then your first salvation will not save you
Ezekiel 18:1-5; 7-end

ttalks:

You cannot Love God and sin. Sin is an expression of dropping the love of God and then focusing on urself and what u want;neglecting what God says.
Sin is an expression of selfishness; being after what u want or your own(without God's)way.
Sin is an expression of loving self above God.

So, in a Christian's life, sinning is an expression of temporal abandonment of the love of God replaced by a temporal love of self.
if it was possible to love God 100% of the time in a Christian's life, sin would never suffice.
we are human and based on our fleshy cloak of sin, we still cannot love God 100% of the time; hence our sinning and the need to always tap into the available grace provided by Christ's sacrifice.

Now let's read more of your theory; don't get distracted by what we say/write.

Great. I think i am back on track again. Thanks guys.

Gamine,

Rom 8:1
(1)  There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

Those in Christ are not supposed to walk after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

Committing adultery which is the example u gave at the beginning, is walking after the flesh. it is fulfilling the cravings of the flesh.

Being in Christ is expressed by the requirement  in the verse above; walking after the Spirit and not the flesh.
So, any point in time in the Spirit walk(Christian walk) that one decides to follow after the flesh, amends need to be made to place us back in our proper stand with Christ.


The verse above says we are not condemned; sinners are condemned.
So, the theory u tried to bring out from ur "All have sinned" premise that we will always be sinners is wrong.


And again, the theory u seem to be putting across suggests that all sins which are yet to be committed are forgiven. as i have said, they are not forgiven until they are repented of. the only sins forgiven at this point in time are the past sins; inherited through Adam.

Rom 3:25
(25)  Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;

There is nothing there indicating that future sins have been forgiven. That is why we have a duty to seek forgiveness of sins we commit as we forge ahead with life so as to get remission of those.
The grace is available through the sacrifice of Christ done in the past and this is what we tap into when we ask for forgiveness.
That is why we Christians(not non Christians) were told here:

1Jn 1:8-9
(  If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
(9) If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

The difference between Christ's sacrifice and that of the bulls and rams is that Christ's cleanses sin away completely while the animals' only cover them.
Christ's was once and for all, that of the animals was continuously done to cover sins.
Christ doesn't need to die again, the animals have to be killed every now and again.
Christ's provides grace which is enough to take care of sins yet to be committed; the animals' only provide a temporary cover of sins which would later need renewal.

Its not MY theory,
its whats in the book.

That verse didnt say, All sinned and came short of Gods glory.

I can see where many Christians have their problems,
the thought that they can never 'sin'  ROTFLMAO!
If indeed we had to work for our salvation, there will be overcrowding in 'Hell'


(Romans 3:10) says

"There is none righteous, no, not one"

.

@Ttalks,

I see you are constantly derailing the topic,
This is why one cant have a honest discussion on Nairaland, *sigh*

Its a pity i cant read the plenty stories you post

Gamine:

@Ttalks,

I see you are constantly derailing the topic,
This is why one cant have a honest discussion on Nairaland, *sigh*

How on earth am i derailing the topic?

Everything i'm saying here is in relation to the topic.
Why don't u show with scripture that what i'm saying is wrong than to say stuff that doesn't say anything but ur opinion?

Its a pity i cant read the plenty stories you post

Maybe that is why it's so easy for u to readily believe false theories, cos u're not ready to sit down and do deep and consice study.

Dude,
you have to be clear.

When you bunch everything together, i cant see.
cos one, my eyesight aint the best
two, i dont have so much time on my hands

thats all i am asking.

Put bible verses in quotes, e.t.c

ok. thanks.

Gamine:

Dude,
you have to be clear.

When you bunch everything together, i cant see.
cos one, my eyesight aint the best
two, i dont have so much time on my hands

thats all i am asking.

Put bible verses in quotes, e.t.c

ok. thanks.

This is a first.

Well, I'll try and make it easier for u

lol.

Thank you very much, kind sir.

Hi All,

Interesting thread. Can anyone join?

TV

TV01:

Hi All,

Interesting thread. Can anyone join?

TV

Ofcourse u can join. It's not meant for Gamine,myself,zikky and dgreatrock alone.
This is what Gamine said at the beginning:

We need to have this discussion, and if you have anything to contribute lets do.
i think it is important for everyone to understand redemption and propitiation

Would be nice to hear from u.

Yup, yup

you are welcome TV01.

1 Corinthians 9:27 - 'But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway.'

This is PAUL himself warning us that it is never too late to be damned!!!! So we need to continually watch ourselves to be sure we have not left what God has placed in our hands.

There is nothing like once saved, forever saved.

What im getting from the majority on this thread,
is that we are the ones saving ourselves.
Christ's death is of no consequence then,
We should have just kept on sacrificing goats n things

@Sharpman,

From that scripture, Paul wasnt talking about the ability to save himself,
He was talking about living life according to what Jesus preached,
i didnt find him stating anywhere that he'd be cast off from the presence of God

Gamine:

From that scripture, Paul wasnt talking about the ability to save himself,
He was talking about living life according to what Jesus preached,
i didnt find him stating anywhere that he'd be cast off from the presence of God

meaning that if he did not continue to live life according to what Jesus preached, he would be a castaway, even if he had been saved before then.

That scripture is self explanatory, you do not need to try to explain it. It is written in plain and simple English and you can check other versions if in doubt.

DO NOT try to twist the scriptures to suit yourself.

Funny,
You are the one twisting it.


Because from Pauls statement, i did not get this

This is PAUL himself warning us that it is never too late to be damned!!!!

So we need to continually watch ourselves to be sure we have not left what God has placed in our hands.

What exactly has God placed in our hands?

Gamine:

Funny,
You are the one twisting it.

Because from Pauls statement, i did not get this
What exactly has God placed in our hands?

Gamine, i am starting to get really amused. You are beginning to seem unteachable. Except if the problem is English language.

Lets go through my first post and then your reply,

Posted by: sharp man

1 Corinthians 9:27 - 'But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway.'

This is PAUL himself warning us that it is never too late to be damned!!!! So we need to continually watch ourselves to be sure we have not left what God has placed in our hands.

There is nothing like once saved, forever saved.

then your reply,

Posted by: Gamine

What im getting from the majority on this thread,
is that we are the ones saving ourselves.
Christ's death is of no consequence then,
We should have just kept on sacrificing goats n things

@Sharpman,

From that scripture, Paul wasnt talking about the ability to save himself,
He was talking about living life according to what Jesus preached,
i didnt find him stating anywhere that he'd be cast off from the presence of God

Now, who is remixing the scripture


For the avoidance of doubt, i will re-post the bible passage in different versions and i will not try to explain anything. I will let you make your conclusions. Try not to create your own version, please.

NIV© No, I beat my body and make it my slave so that after I have preached to others, I myself will not be disqualified for the prize.

NAS© but I discipline my body and make it my slave, so that, after I have preached to others, I myself will not be disqualified.

ISV© No, I keep on discipline my body, making it serve me so that after I have preached to others, I myself will not somehow be disqualified.

KJV But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway.

AKJ But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway.

ASV but I buffet my body, and bring it into bondage: lest by any means, after that I have preached to others, I myself should be rejected.

BBE But I give blows to my body, and keep it under control, for fear that, after having given the good news to others, I myself might not have God's approval.

DRB But I chastise my body, and bring it into subjection: lest perhaps, when I have preached to others, I myself should become a castaway.

DBY But I buffet my body, and lead it captive, lest after having preached to others I should be myself rejected.

ERV but I buffet my body, and bring it into bondage: lest by any means, after that I have preached to others, I myself should be rejected.

WBS But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest by any means when I have preached to others, I myself should be a cast-away.

WEY but I hit hard and straight at my own body and lead it off into slavery, lest possibly, after I have been a herald to others, I should myself be rejected.

WEB but I beat my body and bring it into submission, lest by any means, after I have preached to others, I myself should be rejected.

YLT but I chastise my body, and bring it into servitude, lest by any means, having preached to others -- I myself may become disapproved.

Abeg, somebody should please tell me what this passage means!!!!

Indeed you should really read it yourself again.

I am just asking questions, which you guys wonderfully evade.

Gamine:

Indeed you should really read it yourself again.

I am just asking questions, which you guys wonderfully evade.

Madam,

I am very sorry. I GIVE UP!!!!

Right.

Dont join discussions you cannot contribute reasonably to.

Gamine,

What questions have u asked that have been evaded?
Please post them here again.

Also, there is an attitude that exists in ur writings that is discouraging reasonable contributions.
U might want to look into that.

and still, we are yet to see a complete presentation on ur belief about the whole issue.

Gamine, pls give us ur question again

I suggest you read through the thread again

My attitude is, i dont have time to read through things,
unrelated to the topic at hand. Dont post scriptures out of context
telling me to read it. . .as to what? please just be clear.

I am also having this discussion off the internet, and i just presented it here
because it seems like many people dont teach, dont talk about it.

If you feel, its over your head and you dont want to contribute, there is no problem
in that.

Thank you

dgreatrock:

It is yes and no

1. Yes= If you are saved and you maintain your relationship with the Lord, yes you are saved for life

2. No= If you were saved and did not follow the Lord and allow the things of this world to cloud your eyes and you stray away, if you die without reconcilling with the Lord, then your first salvation will not save you
Ezekiel 18:1-5; 7-end

You insinuate that we have to be born again again again,
with no scriptural backing

Gamine:

What im getting from the majority on this thread,
is that we are the ones saving ourselves.
Christ's death is of no consequence then,
We should have just kept on sacrificing goats n things

You are deliberately mixing things up here. I am having problem understanding what your objectives are. All you do is complain (either the post is too long or its not making sense). You are going to end up frustrating contributors to the thread at this rate. I believe you have a contrary point of view on this issue, some of us have been waiting for you to post. Please share and stop complaining.

Gamine:

Right.

Dont join discussions you cannot contribute reasonably to.

I wonder why you came up with this thread if this is going to be the kind of response we get from you.

ttalks:

Gamine,

What questions have u asked that have been evaded?
Please post them here again.

Also, there is an attitude that exists in your writings that is discouraging reasonable contributions.
U might want to look into that.

and still, we are yet to see a complete presentation on your belief about the whole issue.

I am begining to suspect that Madam Gamine wants you to run out of ammo before she hits back, either that or she has nothing to contribute to the topic

Gamine:

You insinuate that we have to be born again again again,
with no scriptural backing

What is your point? is it that ttalks & co are on track but cant just seem to find the right scriptural backing to support their point? or you hold a different view on the subject? Lets understand you please.

Honestly my opinion is that you are still confused (and succeeded in getting me confused at a point). Please share your view and lets move on.

Please, i will not reply to rantings or further thread derailments.
Because i made myself clear from the beginning.

Thanks.

Gamine:

Please, i will not reply to rantings or further thread derailments.
Because i made myself clear from the beginning.

Thanks.

I dont expect you to reply, cos you have nothing to say.

Finally.

I've tried to read through, but the thread has been derailed on occassion. So let me start by posting my own position.

The short answer is "Yes".

The longer "put in perspective, with added background and placed within the right context" is still yes, but points where I find difference are;

- what constitutes saved?
- when is that point reached?
- what if anything happens prior, at that point or after
- how does one know

others include

- do you earn it
- work to keep it
- can possibly lose it after attaining it.

Whats the board saying?

God bless
TV

- what constitutes saved?
- when is that point reached?
- what if anything happens prior, at that point or after
- how does one know

This is what i understand so far,

Saved: The point at which you acceptance Jesus, When you become 'Born Again'
Before that point, you lived without the ''blood' on your wall, <egypt/passover/angel of death>
how do you know?, i believe everyone makes a conscious decision to either accept Jesus or not.

- do you earn it
- work to keep it
- can possibly lose it after attaining it.

No, nobody earns 'grace'
There is no work to be done to keep grace,
it has nothing to do with anybody.

Losing it? now that is the question,
thats where the discussion here lies mostly,

Gamine:

This is what i understand so far,

Saved: The point at which you acceptance Jesus, When you become 'Born Again'
Before that point, you lived without the ''blood' on your wall, <egypt/passover/angel of death>
how do you know?, i believe everyone makes a conscious decision to either accept Jesus or not.

The highlighted above isn't exactly right. one isn't "saved" at that point of accepting Jesus; rather one begins the journey towards being saved.
Several verses in the bible attest to that fact(Some I've posted earlier in the thread).
Accepting Jesus brings about a change in a person's life but not the final change which is referred to as being "saved".
Being saved is a future event put into motion by our acceptance of/belief in Christ

No, nobody earns 'grace'
There is no work to be done to keep grace,
it has nothing to do with anybody.

True, the grace of God has been made available through our acceptance of Christ, not by our works. But what we do within that Grace actually shows/proves our true possession of the grace. What we do are products of the grace,not originators of the grace.
it is this grace that keeps us till the end;when we are eventually truly "saved".

Losing it? now that is the question,
thats where the discussion here lies mostly,

As regards losing it, it only makes sense that since a thing has not been fully achieved, it is possible to lose it or not achieve it.

This is what the bible says about the saving process:


Rom 8:30
(30) Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

It is when the "glorified" part takes place(cos we know we ain't glorified yet) that we can say we are truly and completely "saved".

Gamine:

Right.

Dont join discussions you cannot contribute reasonably to.

I want to note that the issue with the OP is one of the following:

1. The OP is dumb and cannot comprehend a simple sentence, OR

2. The OP is jobless and bored so she is simply creating an argument for the sake of an argument. She is not trying to have a reasonable debate or learn anything, OR

3. The OP has a point of view and is not ready to consider a contrary opinion even in the face of a superior argument, OR

4. The OP is trying to justify her present state.

This SHOULD be my last contribution to this thread, except the OP becomes reasonable.

The highlighted above isn't exactly right. one isn't "saved" at that point of accepting Jesus; rather one begins the journey towards being saved.
Several verses in the bible attest to that fact(Some I've posted earlier in the thread).
Accepting Jesus brings about a change in a person's life but not the final change which is referred to as being "saved".
Being saved is a future event put into motion by our acceptance of/belief in Christ

So even if we have become a part of Gods kingdom,
we arent quite there yet, we still need to wok out our salvation.

I would be very great-ful if you could highlight those scriptures from the pile.

Another question is, What exactly does Jesus dying mean. why did he have to be 'sacrificed'
why him and not the goats, i need this to be really clear.

As regards losing it, it only makes sense that since a thing has not been fully achieved, it is possible to lose it or not achieve it.

i dont get this, if someone gives you something you dont deserve, you are still saying, you would need to work to keep it
why would the person give you then in the first place.
i