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Re: Atheists Comment Required: Deliverance by Nobody: 7:18am On Oct 05, 2016 |
shadeyinka:. Talkin Demons and Bigwords |
Re: Atheists Comment Required: Deliverance by shadeyinka(m): 7:34am On Oct 05, 2016 |
Jezyfreezman: Trust me, nothing special. Demons are more common than you think. Casting most of them out require no manifestation. Even, young Christians under tutelage /guidance can cast out demons. Its just about your little faith of cause don't willingly go into sins. Sometimes demons desgrace a sinning christian publicly. |
Re: Atheists Comment Required: Deliverance by Nobody: 7:38am On Oct 05, 2016 |
shadeyinka:. Wah ab t those bigwords :/ |
Re: Atheists Comment Required: Deliverance by dblackninja: 7:40am On Oct 05, 2016 |
shadeyinka: You still haven't given me your proof. All you're saying is that there are no proofs for something this huge, then how did you know they're real?? Faith? Smh! An entity/demon jumping into someone & taking control over their body & all you got as proof are claims I won't go around again with this again so I will only give you one practical to perform: I believe you're a Christian & hold the idea that demons travel from one medium to another. Next time you go to those deliverances or meet that demonic possessed beautiful girl, willingly tell the demon to possess you & see the results. Don't fear for this expt. is a win win - If you're possessed, your pastor will cast it out & you have gotten your proof -If not, then you have gained some enlightenment & dropped one absurdity. & just so you know, if you love your parents, there're physical proofs that can show that love. Same with if that god loves you. Shalom! |
Re: Atheists Comment Required: Deliverance by ValentineMary(m): 8:25am On Oct 05, 2016 |
shadeyinka:Does this not invariably mean it is false @ bold text That's the point. I am yet to see real ones that's why I said many of them. I can't just generalize about everything. And pls don't show me that you tube video up there, I have seen better ones and I am still not convinced. My mother, aunts and sister also used to do those things, but they are nothing out of the ordinary But the members who saw it that day would believe it is real and might also come to open threads just like this to prove a point to the atheist. |
Re: Atheists Comment Required: Deliverance by shadeyinka(m): 8:32am On Oct 05, 2016 |
dblackninja: I have already told you, NO Physical Proof! For the One you need Physical Evidence about is NOT subject to physical laws. QED! All I asked was your unbiased Scientific Explanation of these strange behaviours seen during deliverances. The post was NOT in anyway attempting to prove the superiority of Theism over Atheism. No. Should we argue all the time? dblackninja: Why would a medical doctor willingly infect himself with tuberculosis? ..Because of a beautiful patient? Your post is not reasonable. Moreover, you are the one that need a proof...not me! dblackninja: Give me just one "Physical Action" that "Prove You Love"? ..I am waiting 1 Like |
Re: Atheists Comment Required: Deliverance by shadeyinka(m): 8:45am On Oct 05, 2016 |
ValentineMary: If you found some counterfeit N1000 notes in the market, is that a sufficient proof that ALL money in circulation are Fake? ValentineMary: I understand you, you are yet to see one case that convince you. No problem! Can you please describe what you consider as a typical evidence of a demonized person. It may help my research you know! It is very possible our definition of "demonization" is different. I've explained mine, what of yours? ValentineMary: Some deliverances take place without any visible outward manifestation but You know I was talking about manifestations in deliverance ministrations. And so, the example of Bishop Oyedepo may not be suitable. 1 Like |
Re: Atheists Comment Required: Deliverance by donnffd(m): 9:08am On Oct 05, 2016 |
shadeyinka: Lol, I doubt being skeptical can be regarded as having infinite knowledge. I dont know the full length of Natural laws and when something is out of the ordinary, i dont claim it to be Natural neither do i claim it is Supernatural. "I don't know" would be the term but i am very weary of terming it Supernatural due to the fact that previously, many events that we ddnt understand and termed supernatural were found to have Naturalistic explanations, so out of inference, i resist the temptation to call things i dont understand "Supernatural". shadeyinka: Just because some things are not fully understood, doesnt make them evidence for the supernatural, i am sure you would agree! shadeyinka: Ok, so if we are all constrained by the laws of nature, how can we be sure that we can infer what is supernatural or not? |
Re: Atheists Comment Required: Deliverance by shadeyinka(m): 10:15am On Oct 05, 2016 |
donnffd: LOL. You know, this is always my confusion with Agnostic Atheists. They argue and speak like Gnostic Atheists then suddenly they rember that they are supposed to be " sitting on the fence" and suddenly change course. Of course your believe is that EVERYTHING has natural explanations including the seemingly elusive ones with the claim that over time, knowledge and Science will unravel such mysteries. I think Theists are more balance in this respect. We do not say that ALL unexplained events are spiritual, but we acknowledge that there are some things the Physical laws cannot explain. donnffd: I agree...but the converse too is true. The fact that something's are not understood by science is an evidence that science or the physical laws may not be able to explain everything. The failure of classical Physics led to the quantum physics. donnffd: From all the knowledge we have, some things still do not add up. There is no physical explanation for instinct for instance....evolution cannot explain it. To the theists, it is an evidence for a designer who put "the booting sequence" as part of the OS of living beings. Like in quantum physics, nothing is exact! Being sure (aside Faith) needs objective reproducable evidences. The spiritual doesn't operate in such fashion. Faith is Just like Love: it doesn't have physical quantifying elements. |
Re: Atheists Comment Required: Deliverance by Nobody: 10:26am On Oct 05, 2016 |
shadeyinka:A God who is love can't be a consuming fire. |
Re: Atheists Comment Required: Deliverance by shadeyinka(m): 11:46am On Oct 05, 2016 |
CeoMYN: Gods love compels Him to serve justice to enemies of His children |
Re: Atheists Comment Required: Deliverance by Nobody: 12:53pm On Oct 05, 2016 |
shadeyinka:so God has his own separate children. |
Re: Atheists Comment Required: Deliverance by ValentineMary(m): 1:40pm On Oct 05, 2016 |
shadeyinka:Not really but u would at that point agree that the particular note is fake would u not so the truth is that u are invariably calling some deliverance fake. When during the deliverance section, a light like substance is emited from the mouth, or the person changes into something else and back, or they tell me things about my life only me knows. Okay. |
Re: Atheists Comment Required: Deliverance by donnffd(m): 1:49pm On Oct 05, 2016 |
shadeyinka: I would speak for myself in this scenario, i don't believe i am sitting on the fence because i say "i don't know", No, i believe what i am doing is giving a room for skepticism even with my beliefs(which by the way most theists bluntly refuse to do). Let me clarify, Given the Large Number of planets and stars out there and given the abundant nature of the ingredients of life, it is really absurd to claim that life only exists here on earth, but i would not out-rightly call that claim wrong or impossible, because we don't have enough evidence for it(even though we would later in the future). So my stance on alien life is that it is very very very unlikely that we are alone in the universe but i might be wrong since i don't have enough evidence yet to be sure. So likewise this, it is very very very unlikely that many "yet to be understood" claims are the workings of the supernatural but i might be wrong since i don't have enough evidence to be sure also. shadeyinka: The failure of classical Physics led to the standard model of quantum physics yes, but the standard model is still "Nature", it just was not familiar to us, but it is very much Natural and any other Natural laws. No supernatural explanations was invoked for it. shadeyinka: There is no physical explanation for instinct yet, and moreover there are reasons to believe it might not be as complicated as it sounds given the structure of neurons, synapse and the overall connections of the brain but that is a story for another time. Having Faith is awesome, when you know there is a probability of it happening, but faith without any probability whatsoever is pretty much "wishful thinking" in my honest opinion. |
Re: Atheists Comment Required: Deliverance by shadeyinka(m): 2:14pm On Oct 05, 2016 |
CeoMYN: To those who believe on His name He gave the Power to become "Sons of God". The criteria is humans who will Love God unconditionally and love their neighbor as themselves. The prove of love is obedience in pleasing God |
Re: Atheists Comment Required: Deliverance by shadeyinka(m): 3:59pm On Oct 05, 2016 |
ValentineMary: I would never call a persons deliverance fake unless his character proves otherwise. My point was that not all pastors do deliverance and some manifestations you see are not from God. These are valid truths..its just like saying that some politicians are irresponsible. Its a generic statement we know to be true. ValentineMary: LOL! You have mixed up two things 1. Deliverance and 2. Word of knowledge. In deliverance, because demons are spirits you cannot she light or fire proceeding from the demonized. Demons usually affect the personality ofba person. Look at the deliverances done by Jesus, its like what we have now. There are a few ministers gifted in the word of knowledge. They can tell you your inner secrets in direct unambiguous manner but you have to find one for your self. ValentineMary: 1 Like |
Re: Atheists Comment Required: Deliverance by ValentineMary(m): 5:44pm On Oct 05, 2016 |
shadeyinka:Okay. LOL!Let me tell you a deliverance story I learnt as a catholic about st Dominic. One day while Dominic was preaching about the rosary, a man made fun of him and the virgin Mary cast thousands of demons into him. The man family members came to beg Dominic to interceed, so he Dominic began to say the rosary for the man. And at every hail Mary, demons left him like burning coal. |
Re: Atheists Comment Required: Deliverance by Nobody: 6:12pm On Oct 05, 2016 |
shadeyinka: We are in agreement with respect to Benny Hinn although I think you missed the wider point with regards my Hitler analogy. The point I am making is that once a group of persons or person is already placed in a suggestive state it is then easy to manipulate such person(s). Therefore in the boiler room environment of high pressure Charismatic churches it is not unusual that a person who has been screeched at and repeatedly told that he is the recipient of a demonic infestation will then begin to exhibit characteristics that he/she believes a possessed person exhibits, it is a fait accompli. I perceive that you are Catholic, so I am going to use examples from Exorcism performed by certified exorcist. The Priest sometimes use Holy Water and sprinkle just a little on the demonized and you know the reaction? The demonized feel burning sensations which may result into screams from the demonized. Some time, the cross of the Lord Jesus is held in front of the demonized and it has the effect as if blinding lights are coming out of the cross into the demonized eyes. I am not Catholic but yes I am aware that specialised priests carry out exorcisms that are strictly controlled in order to expel demons. I am sure you are not about to tell me that what goes on in the Charismatic churches are exorcisms. However, in a non regulated environment the observation is that every Christian has dominion over demons.If we equate the casting out of demons with an exorcism then I cannot take the above statement of yours at face value because I know from experience that not every Christian can perform one. I understand your point and I think the reason why this is so is because the Bible commands us to cast out demons without explaining how to. Most of what we know about demons are from first hand experience in casting out demons. I think it is so because so called “deliverance” is now performed as a self-indulgence, anyone with any form of malady or unhappiness heads off to a “deliverance” generally performed by a grand-standing self-aggrandising un-ordained cleric, even you have to take recourse in making a judgement as to which minister is carrying out a true deliverance and which one is given to a theatrical performance, as you rightly pointed out, there is no regulation, not even self-regulation, nothing to protect the sanctity of the human psyche from the onslaught of voracious charismatic leaders. The place of adequate training is important but I have not found one yet. This is why many ministers cause more harm especially when a deliverance is partially completed. Adequate training places abound, but Charismatic ministers lack the basic fundamentals to access these places, and there is no such thing as a partially completed deliverance. Either the victim is totally relieved or not. Last of all, if you are performing a deliverance from a demonic infestation then it is in fact a possession. 2 Likes 1 Share |
Re: Atheists Comment Required: Deliverance by shadeyinka(m): 9:04pm On Oct 05, 2016 |
donnffd: The bottom line is still why be an Agnostic Atheist rather than Agnostic Theist? In both cases, there is the notion of "I don't know". Even though either of the 2 positions is not "christianly". Of course, we are not likely alone in the universe statistically speaking. Life shouldn't be possible with Carbon-Nitrogen complex if we look strictly at non creation possibilities. On this second issue is, can their exist " atoms" not made up from our normal proton- neutron- electron basic building blocks...This too is a possibility that may be finite. I guess the problem had always been, how dare theists without a scientificly elucidated theory arrive at a possibility that is statistically feasible. donnffd: My import was not to make a 1:1 comparison of classical: quantum phenomenon but to show that limitation of the classical laws got scientists to think out of the box. Just as limitations of the physical laws should prompt a higher critical thinking for the existence of non physical laws. I guess theists jumped the gun by naming it spiritual. donnffd: Faith isn't about probability! Faith is an intrinsic unexplainable knowing! Faith is like Love (maybe that's why they say love is blind). I doubt if there will ever be a physical explanation for instinct. To me, it is a kind of programming by one who preemptively put in reactions that will guarantee the survival of life. It is easier to believe that this is a design than a product of chance. |
Re: Atheists Comment Required: Deliverance by shadeyinka(m): 10:30pm On Oct 05, 2016 |
ValentineMary: I am no Catholic and I want to be careful of throwing stones around glass houses. I believe that Mary should do the very opposite because demons are enemies not messangers! I take my examples of deliverance from examples from Jesus. Its safer that way! |
Re: Atheists Comment Required: Deliverance by GoodMuyis(m): 11:00pm On Oct 05, 2016 |
Demon Possession is real, I have never witness any deliverer session in a Church. But in the North here .... Even Muslim Hausa Girls are being possessed by a demon that will turn the girls to men in nature, they voice like men, so strong that it is difficult for 3 men to hold down a girl. There is a case of a girl my Apprentice told me, his school mate. This girl manifest in class up to three times in the school before she was withdrawn. This girl can only be calm by a talisman given to the brother from home. The case of demon possession are much among the Northern Hausa Girls |
Re: Atheists Comment Required: Deliverance by shadeyinka(m): 11:08pm On Oct 05, 2016 |
Sarassin: I understand in cases of hypnotism that when a person is already placed in a suggestive state, it is easy to manipulate such a person on certain cues. However, I think you are overly biased against the Pentecostals. I am no Pentecostal myself and I understand the excesses that go on among them but I am still fair and objective is separating the noise from the facts. Finally on this, I have personal on-hands experience contrary to your views. I can tell you that it has nothing to do with repeatedly telling people that they are infected with demons. I have seen a case where prayers were going on in a fellowship and a girl was manifesting in a house close by in her room. The parents had to start a prayer session for their daughter before she calmed down. Sarassin: I guess your idea of exorcism may be different from mine. Most demonized person look very normal. Like I said, demonic possession is not as common. The proper generic word to use is "demonized" which is another way of saying "infected or infested"! I cast out 3 demons from a sister in my office. She didn't know that I will be praying for her and she never attended a deliverance service before. (She is no Pentecostal). The demons were " forced" to surface in Jesus Name, interrogated and subsequently evicted. I take my examples from the scriptures. Sarassin: Its no rocket science. Its a question of faith in ones authority as a believer. There is no need for a "special" anointing from my personal experience. I am just a regular Christian...Most Christians don't because they believe they are no qualified to cast out demons. Demons respect authority and most times they test your faith about your authority. Sarassin: I agree with you on this. Not all problems are demonical in origin. Deliverance is no solution to all problems. Some people just need counseling and some a change in attitude. Sarassin: LOL! I don't know why it happens so. Some demons actually elude the deliverance minister. My take is usually for a delivered person coming back for 2 -3 sessions of what I call checkup. I have seen instaces where the same demon is cast out more than once. I wish we can all do it perfectly like Jesus. |
Re: Atheists Comment Required: Deliverance by Nobody: 7:01am On Oct 06, 2016 |
shadeyinka:CoNCLUSION: HE HAS HIS OWN SEPARATE CHILDREN |
Re: Atheists Comment Required: Deliverance by donnffd(m): 2:54pm On Oct 06, 2016 |
shadeyinka: I am an Agnostic Atheist because the default position is Atheism, Theism is the special and incredible case or claim which if true, would be very extraordinary and amazing. Of course, we are not likely alone in the universe statistically speaking. Theists producing theories is not a sin, infact a belgium priest was the originator of the big-bang theory. This goes for everyone both theist and atheist alike, if you bring forth a very incredible claim, you should have an incredible evidence to back it up if not no-one would take you seriously. My import was not to make a 1:1 comparison of classical: quantum phenomenon but to show that limitation of the classical laws got scientists to think out of the box. Just as limitations of the physical laws should prompt a higher critical thinking for the existence of non physical laws. I guess theists jumped the gun by naming it spiritual. yes, the facts made them to change their thinking but note,"The Facts". If we were also presented with facts of demons and ghosts, i am sure the scientific community might change their thinking also but no such facts has been presented.
The first bolded sentence is the reason science dreads religion, it shuts you off from inquiry and pre-supposes the answers even though those answers are not sufficient. What if you are wrong, and in the near-future we do find an explanation for it, what would you do then?, would you push design backwards to things you dont understand then? I did mention earlier that theist claim infinite knowledge but you tried to turn the argument around, but please be sincere,doesn't the idea that you know that there is a God and he made all things sounds like infinite knowledge to you? The second bolded sentence rests on the fact of easy thinking; It was easier for ancient humans to believe that the sun revolved around the earth and so they did, it was easier for them to think that the gods were the causes of thunder and lightning and they did, it was easier for them to believe that diseases were caused by demons and so they did. In modern times, it is easier to believe that someone designed everything and so many of us do, without thinking critically and using past human mistakes as a lesson guide. 2 Likes 1 Share |
Re: Atheists Comment Required: Deliverance by shadeyinka(m): 6:24pm On Oct 07, 2016 |
GoodMuyis: Sorry, I couldn't reply this post.. I was placed on a Ban by the Region Bots of Nairaland over this very thread. Honestly, I still don't know why. Yes, Muslims have what is similar to what we Christians call Deliverance. They call it Rukya.... However, what is to be understood is that there are about three different Methods of dealing with demons: Demons can be: 1. Appeased, Begged: Our forefathers used this method 2. Suppressed: Send in a more powerful demon to control the offending demon 3. Evicted: Pursued out with pain I don't know why, ladies are more susceptible to demonic infestation than males. 1 Like |
Re: Atheists Comment Required: Deliverance by shadeyinka(m): 6:54pm On Oct 07, 2016 |
Sorry for late reply. The religion Bots of Nairaland banned me for no apparent reason. Guess what? Over this same thread. I created a post just to highlight this but Seun removed it! So, I still don't know why I was banned. Check out what I posted after this post. donnffd: OK. donnffd: But its not a theory. It is an experience and experience may not be physically provable. If an Angel walked into my room and spoke to me for 30 minutes about issues, the only way I can prove it is to bring the angel to the public for all to see. However, things don't work like that. An angel decides when to be seen or not and he can't be controlled. Now, Is the experience true? YES Is is physically provable? NO Since it is not Physically provable, it that the final conclusion that the experience is false? NO! donnffd: No Physical Proof is sufficient because Spirits are not subject to Physical Laws. donnffd: LOL. You know that is not True. Theists don't shut down at making inquiry about nature. Am I not a scientist like you? Theists study of Science, Science displays the wisdom of God in design and making of matter. The difference with atheists see probabilistic "accident" as the cause while theists see "God" as the source. Both positions physically scientifically speaking is impossible. donnffd: Theists are certain "God" made all things Atheists are certain "probabilistic chance" made all things. Both positions are equally scientifically fantastic. None of the positions claim infinite knowledge. Both push the limit of their understanding to God for the Theists and Scienctific Progress for Atheists. donnffd: That doesn't mean that every ancient idea is flawed or false. 2 Likes |
Re: Atheists Comment Required: Deliverance by donnffd(m): 7:20am On Oct 08, 2016 |
shadeyinka: So sorry about that... shadeyinka: This brings two scenarios in mind; 1. Your experience was real but only in your head, maybe hallucinating, or dreaming. Either ways no way to prove it. 2. Your experience was actually real, and angels do infact exists and they live outside the physical realm in which case you still can't prove physical. So in both ways, science would not be able to affirm your claim because it deals with repeatable and testable facts. Then you really cant blame the scientific community for not accepting such things if thats the case. LOL. You know that is not True. Theists don't shut down at making inquiry about nature. Am I not a scientist like you? Theists study of Science, Science displays the wisdom of God in design and making of matter. The difference with atheists see probabilistic "accident" as the cause while theists see "God" as the source. Not all theists though but majority... Impossible is a strong word, i doubt they are impossible(even God being the source), i just feel its is far more plausible for the universe to be random and follow natural laws than for it to be designed by a super intelligent designer. Theists are certain "God" made all things Atheists are not certain of anything and that is why they demand evidence. Right now, i am an atheist grounded in science, but some atheists are not science people at all and dont even accept evolution or even know what the big bang theory is, they just know logically that supernatural claims need evidence. That doesn't mean that every ancient idea is flawed or false. Not every idea but most of them and those who got it right were just lucky enough to stumble on the right answer and not because they actually worked it out to the solution. What history is teaching us is that the easiest answers to us isnt necessarily the right one. The universe doesnt care if it is simple enough for humans to comprehend. 1 Like |
Re: Atheists Comment Required: Deliverance by shadeyinka(m): 8:24am On Oct 08, 2016 |
donnffd: You won't believe this. The post after this message was deleted by the admin again. I guess they don't want the pubic to know the weakness of the bots. I guess it is because seuns name appears several times in it. The post was supposed to be a joke anyway. We can all laugh about some issues and roll on the ground doing so. donnffd: You are correct. The scientific community needs an elusive physical proof...measurement is the basis of science. But from the two scenarios you painted, Atheists Scientist should NOT then crucify Theists as if theist are being obstinately, bigotly unreasonable. They should recognise that it may fall into the class of "scientifically unprovable TRUTHS". Does that change science? No! donnffd: Its actually like the case of the Chicken and the Egg, which came first! Theist start the Origin of everything with a non material invisible God. Atheists start the Origin of everything with a Singleton of dark matter. Theists say even if the claim of atheists are true, God made that Singleton... And Atheist require a physical proof of God from the theists. ONLY Death will end this Argument. Then it is either we all then know the answer or nothing. donnffd: No! I disagree with is your view. Atheists are certain that the answer CANNOT be GOD even though they don't claim to know everything. Its actually a pun when atheists say they require a physical evidence..for no indirect evidence can satisfy the atheist. If you ask me, the only evidence that can satisfy the atheist is when God Himself condense into a physical form and show with convincing evidence that He is God. Else, a new argument will be that, how are we sure its not an alien from planet x of galaxy y. donnffd: Some of those answers still baffle us today: How did the ancients know of the planets Mars, Venus, Jupiter without a telescope? How did the Mayans arrive at their calendar? How was the mega structure of the Pyramids built? How did the ancients cut and polish some hard grinites they use in building? How did the ancients carry those massive stone several kilometers to their destinations? It actually looks like they may have had some extraterrestrial helps..these they call gods. Now, because we are not sure, does it give us a right to throw away everything as false and untrue? |
Re: Atheists Comment Required: Deliverance by Amberon: 6:31am On Oct 11, 2016 |
This post of yours shows intelligence. You didn't sound like most other atheists normally would. It shows you're liberal. You don't believe because you haven't seen any proof. That's very logical unlike some who would just term these things lies or call it bluff. That being said, ghosts, spirits, demons have been caught on tape and are all over the internet. You probably either chose not to believe or haven't seen a convincing one yet. donnffd: |
Re: Atheists Comment Required: Deliverance by ScienceWatch: 2:29am On Jan 17, 2017 |
Sarassin:And the overwhelming evidence coming out of the holy Scoan Church Nigeria daily 24 hrs a day proves that the Holy Prophet TB Joshua is highly anointed to do deliverance of the most powerful demons every time. You are right when you say, "anyone attempting to expel a true demonic presence would likely be shattered by the mere emanations of such an entity." Yes, demons are powerful and dangerous. |
Re: Atheists Comment Required: Deliverance by Nobody: 10:30am On Jan 17, 2017 |
ScienceWatch: Well, at least we agree on something. |
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