Empiree:
Oooh..This thread

I just confused it with similar thread. Anyways, my conclusion on this is, attention should be paid to details of TIMING of ahadith in this respect. It doesn't mean those solitary ahadith are false. We just need to do a little data searching before arriving at conclusion.

Far as I'm concerned, I see Ashura just as facing old Qibla (Jerusalem) before a new Qibla(Makkah) was mandated. The new Qibla abrogated old one. Same applies here. If Ashura was fard for the Jews (which I did not know until now), then, Ramadan abrogates it.

The only thing I can say now to be fair to those who fast this Ashura(myself included ), is nabi left the option open if the hadith valid at all. Until I see evidence otherwise, this is my conclusion.

Whoever wants to fast on Ashura may do so. And may Allah accept it as ibadah. Ameen.

However, I have to just iterate that the main message of Ashura, like I have said before, is not particularly about fasting itself or for the benefits of warding off sins, the main msg is about event or incident btw Nabi Musa (and israelites ) versus Pharaoh. This event will repeat itself in akhir zaman. That's the message Jews (wicked ones) don't want to hear now.

Brother, I believe Albaqir was asking you regarding the date (calculation) the Hadith claims that a purported Jewish fast coincided with the day of Ashura. So the entire explanation on that is proved false because simple calendar calculations by scholars have shown that no Jewish fast on the Jewish calendar coincided with the tenth day of Muharram in the first year of hijrah. What do you have to say about that? The entire justification for Sunnis fasting on Ashura rests on the Hadith that the Prophet (s) met Jews fasting on Ashura and he then ordered the Muslims to do the same. Sunnis don't fast on Ashura because it was a preislamic fast or pre-Ramadan fast. They fast because they believe the Prophet (s) copied the Jews and it's a great day for thanking Allah for His blessings. In other words Ashura is a blessed day and not a day of calamity. That is the reason we say and maintain this entire fast has to do with the scheming of banu Umayyah in trying to erase the memory of Imam Hussein (as) and the Tragedy of Karbala from the memory of the ummah. You seem to have dodged responding to the point on calculation. Why?

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-Ubaid Ibn Zurarah asked Imam Ja'far (as) about fasting on the day of Ashura. Imam Ja'far (as) responded: he who fasts on the day of Ashura his share shall be that of Ibn Marjanah and the family of Ziyad (the killers of Imam Hussein). Ibn Zurarah asked: and what is that share you're referring to? The Imam (as) replied: the hell fire and we seek refuge in Allah from any deed that draw us nearer to it.

(Al-Kafi 4, 184).

-Imam Ja'far (as) was asked by Abu Gandar about the fast of Ashura and the Imam (as) replied: that is the day Hussein (as) was killed. If that pleases you then fast. Banu Umayyah vowed that if Hussein (as) was killed, they would take that day as eid and they will show their gratitude and that they will entertain their children. Thus it has become a tradition in the family of Abu Sufyan to this day. A fast is not kept due to a calamity, it is kept to show gratitude for safety. Hussein (as) was killed on Ashura, if you see this as a calamity then do not fast, if you find it as the day Banu Umayyah found safety then fast (thinking you are) being grateful to Allah".

Wasa'il al Shia vol. 10 pg. 468)

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ShiaMuslim:




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Walaikum Salaam,

I believe I responded the best way I could. I have mentioned about timing of those ahadith. I have read further on Ashura as well. Indeed, there is no doubt it was abrogated by Ramadhan. What I did not know initially was the obligatory of Ashura for Banu Israil. I thought it was voluntary. I have read some literature from medieval scholars and their contemporaries. They affirmed Ashura is abrogated but only preserve it optional. And I dont think you brothers should have problems should anyone chooses to fast on that day. That's btw worshipers and their Creator.

I may post further on this as time permits In Sha Allah

^ Empiree, it is very unfortunate that nearly every question and vital points posed on this thread is either being dodged or attention is diverted to avoid it.

# Again, we challenge the hadith attributed to a 3 - 4 year old Ibn Abbas (in 1/2year Hijra) that Jews never fasted on the 10th of Muharram. Yehudi never followed the pagan or Muslim calendar. They have their own "divine" calendar and they observe all the dated forms of worships therein. Mathematically 10th Muharram never synchronized with the month/day of Jewish fasting for victory.

AlBaqir:
^ Empi.ree, it is very unfortunate that nearly every question and vital points posed on this thread is either being dodged or attention is diverted to avoid it.

# Again, we challenge the hadith attributed to a 3 - 4 year old Ibn Abbas (in 1/2year Hijra) that Jews never fasted on the 10th of Muharram. Yehudi never followed the pagan or Muslim calendar. They have their own "divine" calendar and they observe all the dated forms of worships therein. Mathematically 10th Muharram never synchronized with the month/day of Jewish fasting for victory.

If I avoided some posts, it means it is irrelevant to me. I know Jews had their own calendar. My only concern was it was abrogated by Ramadan and many text references and Shuyuk confirmed this. Anything else is just not in my best interest. But i get where you driving at. You Have to understand that Sunnis will not agree if you try to convince them that Ashura was about Imam Hussein since there is no direct evidence/reference to that link.

Besides, it is complex than I thought earlier. I even read yesterday that Nabi(p) fasted Ashura in Makkah before hijra. Dont know and cant confirm that bcus it was just talks with no reference. What is important to me is not whether their their calendar synchronized or not. I read on that last night too. My point is, if a muslim chose to fast on Ashura it is btw him and his Lord. We do not have the right to say their is no reward in it. What is frown upon, even by Ibn Taymiyah(ra) is making noise over it like they do today plus many other things like celebrating or mourning etc

We also need to understand that a mslim can fast in month of Muharam bcus it is considered one of the best months. Doesnt necessarily have to be on the 10th. I tis just Nafila. This hadith proves virtues of fasting on Muharram:


Abu Hurayrah (may Allah be pleased with him) said:

"The Messenger of Allah (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) said: 'The best of fasting after Ramadhan is fasting Allah's month of Muharram.' "

--- Reported by Muslim, 1982


The thing is there are different incidents that happened on that day. I guess everyone picked whichever pleases them. Victory of Musa(as) recorded. Martyrdom of Imam Hussein(ra) recorded. A version narrated by Imam Ahmad adds: "This is the day on which the Ark settled on Mount Judi, so Nuh fasted this day in thanksgiving,"


Here is where differences might occur. It is Mustahabb (Encouraged) to Fast Tasu'a' with 'Ashura':


'Abdullah ibn 'Abbas (may Allah be pleased with them both) said: "When the Messenger of Allah (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) fasted on 'Ashura' and commanded the Muslims to fast as well, they said, 'O Messenger of Allah, it is a day that is venerated by the Jews and Christians.' The Messenger of Allah (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) said, 'If I live to see the next year, in sha Allah, we will fast on the ninth day too.' But it so happened that the Messenger of Allah (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) passed away before the next year came." [Reported by Muslim, 1916]


Ash-Shafi'i and his companions, Ahmad, Ishaq and others said: "It is mustahabb to fast on both the ninth and tenth days, because the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) fasted on the tenth, and intended to fast on the ninth."

On this basis it may be said that there are varying degrees of fasting 'Ashura', the least of which is to fast only on the tenth and the best of which is to fast the ninth as well. The more one fasts in Muharram, the better it is.



The Reason Why it is Mustahabb to Fast on Tasu'a'


An-Nawawi (may Allah have mercy on him) said:

"The scholars – our companions and others – mentioned several reasons why it is mustahabb to fast on Tasu'a': The intention behind it is to be different from the Jews, who only venerate the tenth day. This opinion was reported from Ibn 'Abbas …The intention is to add another day's fast to 'Ashura'. This is akin to the prohibition on fasting a Friday by itself, as was mentioned by al-Khattabi and others. To be on the safe side and make sure that one fasts on the tenth, in case there is some error in sighting the crescent moon at the beginning of Muharram and the ninth is in fact the tenth."


The strongest of these reasons is being different from the People of the Book. Shaykh ul-Islam ibn Taymiyyah (may Allah have mercy on him) said: "The Prophet (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) forbade imitating the People of the Book in many ahadith, for example, his words concerning 'Ashura': 'If I live until the next year, I will certainly fast on the ninth day.' " [Al-Fatawa al-Kubra, part 6, Sadd adh-Dhara'i' al-Mufdiyyah ila'l-Maharim]

Ibn Hajar (may Allah be pleased with him) said in his commentary on the hadith "If I live until the next year, I will certainly fast on the ninth day" and "What he meant by fasting on the ninth day was probably not that he would limit himself to that day, but would add it to the tenth, either to be on the safe side or to be different from the Jews and Christians, which is more likely. This is also what we can understand from some of the reports narrated by Muslim." [Fath, 4/245]


So all these are non-issues to me bcus it is no enforced on anyone or made obligatory.

Empiree:
If I avoided some posts, it means it is irrelevant to me. I know Jews had their own calendar. My only concern was it was abrogated by Ramadan and many text references and Shuyuk confirmed this. Anything else is just not in my best interest. But i get where you driving at. You Have to understand that Sunnis will not agree if you try to convince them that Ashura was about Imam Hussein since there is no direct evidence/reference to that link.

Besides, it is complex than I thought earlier. I even read yesterday that Nabi(p) fasted Ashura in Makkah before hijra. Dont know and cant confirm that bcus it was just talks with no reference. What is important to me is not whether their their calendar synchronized or not. I read on that last night too. My point is, if a muslim chose to fast on Ashura it is btw him and his Lord. We do not have the right to say their is no reward in it. What is frown upon, even by Ibn Taymiyah(ra) is making noise over it like they do today plus many other things like celebrating or mourning etc

# We Muslims do things according to book "only". You follow Allah and the Prophet for your best interest.

# Saying you just read "for the first time" that hadith says Nabi fasted in Makkah simply means you don't read "argument for and against" Ashura fasting yearly on NL. Even this is repeated while I reply the OP. And that is a big big thorn in the flash when Ibn Abbas hadith is brought to the fore. And if we try to marry the two hadiths together, we equally run into yet another exposure of a giant conspiracy.

# All these simply shows there are lies and fabrications in the so-called "sahih Bukhari and Muslims".

AlBaqir:


# We Muslims do things according to book "only". You follow Allah and the Prophet for your best interest.

# Saying you just read "for the first time" that hadith says Nabi fasted in Makkah simply means you don't read "argument for and against" Ashura fasting yearly on NL. Even this is repeated while I reply the OP. And that is a big big thorn in the flash when Ibn Abbas hadith is brought to the fore. And if we try to marry the two hadiths together, we equally run into yet another exposure of a giant conspiracy.

# All these simply shows there are lies and fabrications in the so-called "sahih Bukhari and Muslims".

You see, you dwell too much on this. I have made my point clear that it is all irrelevant to me bcus Ashura itself is not obligatory. If someone is forcing it down my throat now, that would be challenged. Sunnis do not deny abrogation but from what i read it is clear that it's there only to encourage people to fast and they see nothing wrong in it. You could be wrong for saying the fast is invalid and no virtues in it. That's for Allah to decide.

I am not concerned about what xyz ahadith said. We already seen too many controversies in them. Ashura is no longer legislated and the way Shia celebrate it is not legislated either. The only reference Shia has is "love of Alhu-Bayt". Hence, the reason to mourn. I get that part but dont tell Sunni they arent getting rewards for fasting that day. The real reason they kept Asura in place is bcus of hadith which says prophet(p) would have fasted the 9th the following year. Hence, he would continue to fast Ashura by their logical deduction. So Ulama validated Ashura on that as well.

As for me, I have told you that Ashura is not about fasting and getting rewards. All that are just bonus. Its message is indirectly mentioned in the Quran in connection with musa(as). And I mentioned that the incident btw Musa and firaun will be repeated btw muslims and wicked jews. Thats the real concern that we all missing. Not the fast.

Empiree:
The real reason they kept Asura in place is bcus of hadith which says prophet(p) would have fasted the 9th the following year. Hence, he would continue to fast Ashura by their logical deduction. So Ulama validated Ashura on that as well.

..

# That is exactly where we interject that the hadith is nothing but fabrication.

# طلب العلم فريضة

# Anything obligatory, failure to do is punishment. Obviously you cant build your house on fabricated lies and expect to sleep comfortably.