@Krayola:

No. You have entirely missed my point. I am not talking about what God endorses or what he does not. You were the one making a comparison between the Old testament's violence and what is recorded in the Koran, I will not of my accord compare light with darkness except I want to flood the darkness with light, like I have done in the above.

My point is that, considering things from a social science perspective, Islam is generally more violent than Christianity ever was, and the major reason for such violence is found in their Koran. And besides, a great deal of the violence targets the selfsame Christians. Not any religion on Earth, but the "hateful" Christians, as a guy in my university was known to say. That's it.

@Mavenbox: « #93 on: Today at 12:26:55 AM »

@Krayola: I am afraid I can't answer your question thoroughly right now because I will need verses from the Koran, I have a softcopy on my other laptop but its not here right now. I will need to post verse that communicate violence, and you will see the difference.

In the Bible, there were two types of violence advised in the OT: revenge or other law-related violence types, and then violence in war. There is never anywhere that they were instructed to deal with those that refused to submit to their religion.[/qu ote]Is this girl for real, considering that all those the Children of Israel killed, including tree cutting and livestock slaughtering were all disbelievers in the God of the Children of Israel! Count with me please; Egypt was destroyed by her God (soon she will deny the OT God for Trinity. Watch it), because they do not believe with Children of Israel, otherwise, we have to now admit that the God of the israelites killed Egyptians for believing! No? Further all the people of Jericho, along with their livestocks and trees wasted because they were believers! So we see that outr college student has provided us the true picture of her God, ala Yahweh or Jehovah, TYC (Take your choice).

Hey my God is not insecure! If he wanted 1 billion people to follow him by force, he would either convert them or make them appear out of nothing!

The same God who says that "I am a jeaolus God" is not insecure? Can any entity be more insure than the one that says he is jealous? Jealousy is a sign of insecurity. And in Surah Al Maidah (Chapter 5), verse 54 says that Allah is capable to bring a new people who will love Him and Allah will love them back, if at anytime the current believers take the favor of belief for granted, and we see the flood of Americans becoming Muslims; whites, blacks, Latinos, and others, males and females without being married to a muslim or being influenced by anyone of them, except that these americans have good hearts. I remember my college days in West Virginia, when the only muslims I saw were the Arabs we were in school together! There was not even a masjid in Charleston, the state capital, maybe in Morgantown, where University of West Virginia was located. Montgomery where I was, the direction to face, I only knew it because I hung around those who practised among them. Today am sure there must be a masjid at WVIT.

But in the Koran? They are advised to do those things (OUTSIDE war, OUTSIDE means of justice), to Kafirs and infidels, and they were even promised rewards in heaven! I hope someone will help me post a reference here.

The word infidel appears in the Book of Timothy, and you will never see a word like that in Quran in Arabic! Alhamdulillah, I read Arabic.

And when i say THE muslims i meant it in perspective, (hey!) and not ALL muslims. I meant THE same muslims that partake of the violence. And when/if I say THE Christians, i mean it in perspective also.

Perspective whereby only bad christians, and they are just a handful, are the ones who do a little bit of violence. The muslim, are bad people and in perspective, only few muslims, just a handful of them are the ones who do not engage in violence. Thats the perspective of mavenbox, who has ignored all the official violence, by ruling class of the world's mandateship of we determine who are the bad guys, and its not us, but them, while whatever we do, even if we wipe out a city, an people a nation, we are just doing ethnic cleansing like in the old Yugoslavia, or we are fighting them because they hate us and our lifestyle. But it is to be noted that before Islam gave elevated women and gave them equality based on personal total quality, and nothing is based on gender that is not a nomally accepted premise, like strenght differential, the Christians and Jews see women as prperties and actually the one entity responsible for the fall from grace of man! Read, mavenbox and stop being practical. While you must take your husband's name and abandone your family name as soon as you signed the marriage registry, my wife continues to bear her family's name.

My last entry on the issue of violence, so I am setting up a scenario of when all the disbelievers starting, starting from the Egyptian all the way to the last group of people killed in the hand of Moses and his followers and or by Jehovah/Yahweh sending the angels to kill the first borns of the egyptians, am sure the people who were being killed or losing relatives will say that Moses and his people and their God, yahweh/jehovah must be evil. No?

Let me fast forward to a different scenario, during the time of Jesus, specifically as he was being nailed to the cross, am sure that his associates, the disciples would definitely say, the Jews who are not following Jesus and now killing him are weaked people. No?

What about now, are the Jews not weaked anymore, since the effige of Judas Iscariot never ceases to be dragged in the streets of Nigeria on good friday, and many Jews have lost their lives in the hands of Christian Europe and American conservative Christians just because they are Jews. no?

ai intentionally do not want to talk about the evilness of Saul Paul because he was in a class of his own in Jew killing. And as I see it, the evilness havent stopped yet!

@olabowale:

Let me start by telling you for the THIRD time that i am not a college student, and I finished with college long ago. You seem to be hard of hearing. Secondly, I am not a girl and I will insist you accord me due respect, for you do not even know my age. Thirdly, I was talking to Krayola, who demonstrated some more intelligence, if I was conversing with you I may have phrased my words differently. Fourthly, refrain from using irrelevancies like the name of your wife while we are conversing. With due respect to her, she can adopt the name of my chihuahua or the name of a vintage 1926 wine if she so cares. You seem to always try to appeal to emotions, please save it for the idiots that will take it from you.

Your posts are inane, utterly senseless I must confess. Because the God of Israel never asked them to subdue the people for RELIGIOUS reasons. The Egyptians were oppressing the Israelites. they made them slaves, as a reward for the help that Joseph did in Egypt, repaying good with eventual evil. Getting them out of Egypt was the thing of importance, and not that they wanted Pharaoh to become an Israelite.

Do you know where you theory falls into quicksand? The Mohammedans (sic) believe that by using violence they can enforce submission and add to their own numbers. Not so the Israelites. In fact, GOD wanted them separate as a people. There was to be no addition from outside. No mixing of any sort. So you are just talking crap, because it is incomparable.

You lack understanding of the truth, that is why you do not know what God meant by jealous. The English language is so weak, and if you want to say something without understanding, why not purchase a concordance so you can know the original rather than quoting out of context? I hear concordances are quite cheap. If you can't afford it, post your address: a willing Nairalander can send you one for free.

The hebrew word used for Jealous is קנּא
qannâ'
kan-naw'
which means "can be provoked unto anger" meaning that God was not going to take the nonsense that the Israelites could see other cultures and civilizations doing. Such things as orgies (which were the order of the day), burning children in fire (serving Molech) and the likes. GOD WAS TELLING THEM THAT HE CANNOT TOLERATE IT. Simple and straightforward. And as usual, you have digressed from the topic and harped upon a side-statement about God being secure in his Being. Zugzwang for you right there.

About Infidels

The English word Infidel is the Greek word:

ἄπιστος
apistos
ap'-is-tos
From G1 (as a negative particle) and G4103; (actively) disbelieving, that is, without Christian faith (specifically a heathen); (passively) untrustworthy (person), or incredible (thing): - that believeth not, faithless, incredible thing, infidel, unbeliever (-ing).

Translated unbeliever in the below:
1Ti 5:8  If anyone fails to provide for his relatives, and especially for those of his own family, he has disowned the faith [by failing to accompany it with fruits] and is worse than an unbeliever [who performs his obligation in these matters].

I am sorry to alert you that, for someone who uses his brain productively, one can tell that the infidel is spoken of in relatively good light in the verse above; because the infidel is said to perform his family and social obligations. And it is an example to show that if someone professes to be a Christian and refuses to take care of his own, it is better if the person never ever professed to be a Christian. Besides, it was the closest English word that could be used to convey the meaning at that time when the KJV was translated.

This does not, yet, answer what I said
But in the Koran? They are advised to do those things (OUTSIDE war, OUTSIDE means of justice), to Kafirs and infidels, and they were even promised rewards in heaven! I hope someone will help me post a reference here.
because it is instead another digression. Rather than Olabowale face the facts, he chooses to beat about the bush.

WHEN ON EARTH WILL YOU STOP PLAYING AROUND WITH SEMANTICS? THIS THREAD IS DEALING WITH FACTS IN THE KORAN, YOU ARE BRINGING UP SEMANTICS. ARE YOU NOT ASHAMED OF YOURSELF, OLABOWALE?

And what does our conversation have to do with women and gender equality and fall from grace? You do know how to digress, don't you? You keep playing the woman card: wife, woman, your mother, your wife, etc. I am not moved emotionally, I hope you know that? All those women in your life will go to a [size=18pt]BURNING HELL[/size] if they don't repent. And you'll all be there together.

The Krayola that I was talking to, understood my perspective. We were talking about violence in the Old Testament and in the Mohammedan times as recorded in the Bible and koran. So when I said THE Muslims and/or THE Christians, I was relating our discussion to the present age. You may need to read it again, or ask Abuzola to explain to you. I have seen him observing in silence, so I think he's gaining wisdom. He may have overtaken you in wisdom, I know not.

Whoever drags the effigy of Judas Iscariot on the street does it for his fun or at his own peril, I care not. Jesus never asked me to have qualms with Judas for betraying him, so whoever does that is having as much fun as someone who goes kickboxing against a stuffed scarecrow and calls it mohammed. Or better, allah. Either case, I may only laugh and watch them beating a fluffy piece of rags and foam. It represents nothing unless you want it to. Which reminds me of that mohammed cartoon that someone drew for fun and the muslims began killing people.

As for the Jews when Christ was crucified? Christ had told his disciples time without number that he had to die, so they all knew it. They couldn't have uttered nonsense like you are saying. Christ never left his disciples in the dark.

And Saul? Of course Saul was wicked! And in case you forgot, he was wicked TO the Christians. So your point there is rather dumb. I can liken Saul to the Amalekites, enemy of the Jews in the OT. Because either case was an enemy of God's chosen people. Moot.

Olabowale, you are starting to sound senile because you keep digressing on these threads, and you keep raising irrelevant issues, and the ones that are unfinished above you cant defend them. It is pathetic.

You are allowing the thread to prepare to enter the fifth page and you only have some half-baked failed attempts at explaining the koran's lies. I was impressed starting with you but I must say that I enjoyed discussing with Abuzola more, because his digressions were at least comical. Yours are long, boring and histrionic. What is our business with your family matters, for instance? 

These people are just out to waste time, I have better things to do. My conclusion is that you have no defence, so you have chosen to waste time with irrelevancies and dross. Christians have so many threads out there where you can ask your questions and get answers. AS FOR THIS THREAD, THE KORAN IS ON TRIAL FOR PREVARICATION OF SORTS, AND FOR CREATING ZOMBIES OUT OF MEN DUE TO FORCED STATEMENTS OF FALSEHOOD.

[size=18pt]Defend your lying koran or scram.[/size]

even if you are 50 years old, you will still be a girl to me! if robert Spenser is your University lecturer at Chapel Hill, a boy am many years older than, then you are a girl, espectially with your tone of voice, telling a man old enough to be your father that he is hard of hearing. Some manners, but then what do I expect, considering that the nigerians back home lack manners just the same!

What does all of this have to do with the post?

If I tell you that you seem to be hard of hearing, I speak in truth because you keep bringing up the same matters in an annoying senile manner.

I told you to stop bringing in sentiments. Whether I am 5 or 50 or 500 or 5000 years old, or even eternal; answer the questions. The last time I checked, truth and verity did not depend on the age of the questioner or evaluator. You can go and play your age card on the Nairaland FAMILY thread. Your grey hairs may work wonders there.

If Robert Spencer is a boy to you, then you must surely regret not having gone to school early enough. Or not having gone at all.

And I am compared to Nigerians at home because? Don't be short-sighted. Because I know some Nigerian languages and I am on Nairaland does not mean I am a Nigerian. Does Mavenbox sound Nigerian to you?

ANSWER THE GIVEN QUESTIONS, OR STEP ASIDE AND SOMEONE ELSE SHOULD. ITS EASY.

Your posts are inane, utterly senseless I must confess. Because the God of Israel never asked them to subdue the people for RELIGIOUS reasons. The Egyptians were oppressing the Israelites. they made them slaves, as a reward for the help that Joseph did in Egypt, repaying good with eventual evil. Getting them out of Egypt was the thing of importance, and not that they wanted Pharaoh to become an Israelite.

I did not say for religious reason, I said belief! I hope you do pay attention to details, follow instructions when something is put in front of you. The naivete of the christians is amazing. I didnt talk about Israelites but belief and disbelief! You need to learn about the jews, sorry israelites, and you can find some in the US now, otherwise you will not know that in their saders, events I have attended, do have tribes and nations based on the 12 sons of Israel, Jacob!

A God Who punishes a group of people, not separating the believers from disbelievers and keep rewarding a people including the disbelievers among them is not a just God. People should be judged on individual merit, their belief as per the Will of the Creator. What God will discriminate on a people while chosing another for Himself? No a just God!

Do you know where you theory falls into quicksand? The Mohammedans (sic) believe that by using violence they can enforce submission and add to their own numbers. Not so the Israelites. In fact, GOD wanted them separate as a people. There was to be no addition from outside. No mixing of any sort. So you are just talking crap, because it is incomparable.

My Jewish associates will enjoy your company for elevating them falsely though, you and them believing it however! If your God chose the Jews for Himself, is that a fair God or a discriminating God? But them the Jews killed your human God, a thrd of the Trinity, and there is no reparcursion, I guess love is blind, but some Christians will end up in lake of fire, the only group that belong in this human God of the Trinity. This is interesting.

You lack understanding of the truth, that is why you do not know what God meant by jealous. The English language is so weak, and if you want to say something without understanding, why not purchase a concordance so you can know the original rather than quoting out of context? I hear concordances are quite cheap. If you can't afford it, post your address: a willing Nairalander can send you one for free.

What did your God mean His jealousy? How can your God talk to you in a term that is not humanely comprehensive, yet you are a human being? you must be kidding me! Is your God talking to you in language of the Angels or other creations, diferent from human beings?

Mavenbox: For your information, I am not responding to you as a matter of engagement. I dont pay attention to you at all, but responding for the benefit of the wider audience. So dont worry about it! As far as am concern, you are not here.

[quote[The hebrew word used for Jealous is קנּא
qannâ'
kan-naw'
which means "can be provoked unto anger" meaning that God was not going to take the nonsense that the Israelites could see other cultures and civilizations doing. Such things as orgies (which were the order of the day), burning children in fire (serving Molech) and the likes. GOD WAS TELLING THEM THAT HE CANNOT TOLERATE IT. Simple and straightforward. And as usual, you have digressed from the topic and harped upon a side-statement about God being secure in his Being. Zugzwang for you right there.

[/quote]I asked a simple question, though I dont mind the research, but I dont see a shred of effort to answer my question directly! Is "Am a Jealous God" not part of the 10 commandments? Of course it is one of them! To be telling us that the Bible God said this so that the Israelites should know that their nonsense will not be tolerated is really not answering my question, and a matter of absolute dishonesty. Finally, with all of that, the israelites brought to bear the "nonsense" anyway, since they made a golden calf to worship and later was ruled by Solomon whom the Bible says worshipped all kind of idols of the people his army defeated! And I wonder if it was not because of that nonsense continuing to plague them like a terminal disease taht brought about Jesus. No? If this is not correct, I will like to know what is the reason for Biblical Jesus being raised among them, for every messenger or prophet is to lead people to the path of righteousness, if the follow him!



[quote]About Infidels

The English word Infidel is the Greek word:

ἄπιστος
apistos
ap'-is-tos
From G1 (as a negative particle) and G4103; (actively) disbelieving, that is, without Christian faith (specifically a heathen); (passively) untrustworthy (person), or incredible (thing): - that believeth not, faithless, incredible thing, infidel, unbeliever (-ing).

Translated unbeliever in the below:
1Ti 5:8 If anyone fails to provide for his relatives, and especially for those of his own family, he has disowned the faith [by failing to accompany it with fruits] and is worse than an unbeliever [who performs his obligation in these matters].

My statement was about Infidels, not disbelievers. I wish people pay attention to instruction, not trying to sleep through it and resort to improvisation! Is Infidel in a Bible, in the Book of Timothy? Yes. Does Quran in Arabia has a word that means Infidels? No. Is Infidel, a word having Infidelity as a root word? No! Where will you find Infidel or infidelity in Quran? The english translation because the english people have this word in their lexicology and because of their culture are forced to use it because it is in their cultural Psyche, thinking it emphasises the gravity of disbelief. No word in Arabic fits to mean infidel, directly. None.

Olabowale makes another empty attempt

What God will discriminate on a people while chosing another for Himself? No a just God! you utter.

That is more inane crap. Who created the people in the first case? As you are choosing your words to type these silly responses, if you decide on a word over another word, even if they are synonyms, who will question you? Will the words respond? Do the words dare challenge you?

So, from that perspective, God is Just. He spoke to Abraham and told him what he wanted him to do, and Abraham obeyed. The Israelites came from him. If Abraham had disobeyed, God may have chosen another people. Its not an onerous covenant. Whoever is not interested can back-off, but whatever happens to them will not bother anyone. Whoever He punishes is to be blamed because they are outside his covenant, they are illegal entities. But that was the old testament.

But in the new testament, the rules are different. There is, once again, a chosen people. However, the boundary is not fixed like it was with the Jews. Whoever wants to come into the family is free to do so, ever since Jesus paid the price, he/she only needs to accept that fact. God REALLY wants everyone to come into the family, but he will never force anyone. If you don't come in by will, you will perish by will. Shikena.

You are talking about Jealousy. Do you see why I said you are dull of hearing? I have explained that it is the weakness of your English Language that makes you read the word as Jealousy. Just like a word like "love" has so many different possible meanings but there's only one word for it in English. God is not limited to human languages, I say for the fourth time in 24 hours.

And if I say you are dull of hearing, you will start getting effeminately emotional.

Can we all see how Abuzola is majoring on non-issues instead of standing up for the crap he believes in? I have seen him now on three threads derailing the thread with nonsense whenever he can't answer the question. He claims not to have time, but he has the time to come here and post irrelevant, doggone information.

Whoever drags the effigy of Judas Iscariot on the street does it for his fun or at his own peril, I care not. Jesus never asked me to have qualms with Judas for betraying him, so whoever does that is having as much fun as someone who goes kickboxing against a stuffed scarecrow and calls it mohammed. Or better, allah. Either case, I may only laugh and watch them beating a fluffy piece of rags and foam. It represents nothing unless you want it to. Which reminds me of that mohammed cartoon that someone drew for fun and the muslims began killing people.

Its interesting to know that no christian on earth, since Paul entered the fold obey Jesus in everything, including the 10 commandments which governed him and the Mark 12 verse 29, which he repeated with emphasis with his mouth! And Muhammad (AS) is not a personality that as my yoruba saying goes "pick your teeth with!" I may not fight anyone but I will engage the person in debate forcing him or her to explain what audacity they have to lie that blatantly!

As for the Jews when Christ was crucified? Christ had told his disciples time without number that he had to die, so they all knew it. They couldn't have uttered nonsense like you are saying. Christ never left his disciples in the dark.

With all the telling them he was going to die, he still blamed the his God for forsaken him! I know I will die, will I be shocked when it comes when am about 130 years old? No. Will I complain about my Creator? No!

LOL Olabowale are you hurt?

Mavenbox: For your information, I am not responding to you as a matter of engagement. I dont pay attention to you at all, but responding for the benefit of the wider audience. So dont worry about it! As far as am concern, you are not here.

LOL Everyone reading this knows that you have been responding to me, else you won't have been trying to pass the message via emotional appeal, but you would have reasoned intellectually, using your head. As for me, it has been clear from the onset that I am only responding to your digressions because I will not leave such dross on a thread I started. If you answered my questions, I would have responded neatly. As long as you keep digressing, I wont let you cover up the truth with your lies.

[size=15pt]If you want to balance things up, just answer the damn questions and if they are satisfactory I will exit the thread. Then you can build a castle here and invite your friends over if you want. JUST ANSWER THE DAMN QUESTIONS. Your reputation is at stake, Olabowale. And it is getting rotten already.[/size]

About the Jealous God, of course that is why Jesus came! Because even after all the warnings that God will not tolerate such things, the Israelites continued doing evil and they kept dying as a result of their wickedness, it was a self-involved system that the only solution had to come from OUTSIDE. You cant solve a problem if you're a part of it. So Christ had to come by immaculate birth, the seed of Adam would have brought that same sin of disobedience, wickedness and evil.

Who cares if infidel is in the koran or not? It originated from an infidel's heart and mind, so whether infidel is written therein or not, the koran is an express description of infidels. and did i hear you mention infidelity ? that's so wrong, it sounds like something abuzola would have said.

I wont answer your question about Jesus on the cross because, unless you are also blind asides being dull of hearing, you would have seen my earlier post explaining that matter using innoculation as an example/analogy.

AS LONG AS YOU KEEP TOYING WITH THIS THREAD, I WONT LET YOU REST, OLABOWALE. COME CLEAN AND SAY YOU HAVE NO ANSWERS, OR DEFEND YOUR DIRTY LITTLE BOOK OF LIES

olabowale:

I can accept the ostrich syndrome of many on the "fallacies of Quran, and similar threads"

Then I guess the next step is for you and your likes like Abuzola is to just respect yourselves and be quiet, instead of derailing threads time and time again. . .

@olabowale: You say that Christ was blaming his God for forsaking him. Let me teach you wisdom and truth. Not only was it a physical burden of crucifixion for Christ, it was a spiritual burden that NO MAN HAD EVER EXPERIENCED. All of man's sins in the past, present and future were placed on ONE MAN at once. God had to turn away because he can't stand sin. For the first time, Jesus experienced spiritual disconnection from God, and just like Adam ran away in the garden of Eden, Jesus' own expression as the last Adam (1 Cor 15:45) was to cry out in anguish.

For the first time, Jesus was forsaken by God, while on the cross. IT WAS THE PLAN, but it was painful for the moment, like taking Chloroquine to heal Malaria, if the person complains that it is bitter, does it make the drug ineffective? That is a dumb analogy, and I will keep using dumber ones until I have drummed it in. HE WAS FORSAKEN FOR A WHILE SO THAT I WILL NOT BE FORSAKEN FOREVER. That is the plain truth, and you keep mentioning Christ's death, now comparing it to your own death.  You are so funny. If God metes out the weight of YOUR OWN SIN alone upon your head, you will wish you were never born, let alone the sins of all mankind. And you're talking of death at 130 years 

A_K_O:

Then I guess the next step is for you and your likes like Abuzola is to just respect yourselves and be quiet, instead of derailing threads time and time again. . .

I don't think that is going to happen. At least not until certain 'christians' stop antagonising other people of other faiths. Going out of their way to ease their state of dis-ease/un-ease/malaise by venting on somebody else who is minding his own business, practising religion as he sees fit.

@Pastor AIO: You know the interesting thing, sir, is that I think I am one of those people you just referred to. But even more interesting is the fact that I visited the Nairaland religion threads and I thought that I could have a thread where we could LOGICALLY and PROCEDURALLY discuss matters. No, it never happened that way because Abuzola and some others came along and started causing trouble, derailing the thread. That action of derailing the thread is what I find barbaric, because I do not derail the thread when I am on other threads answering as a Christian apologetic.

And THAT is the nub of the matter.

haha. mavenbox has shown herself to be just another irrational, illogical fanatic disguising her fanaticism as intellectualism. Her contrived arguments for Christianity (conveniently ignoring Christianity's violent history that makes Jihadists look like saints) show her to be grossly biased and incapable of any honest assessment of ANYTHING!!

Let me run into hiding before she sends holy spirit to come and roast me . Enjoy ur "holy" crusade.

mavenbox:

@Pastor AIO: You know the interesting thing, sir, is that I think I am one of those people you just referred to. But even more interesting is the fact that I visited the Nairaland religion threads and I thought that I could have a thread where we could LOGICALLY and PROCEDURALLY discuss matters. No, it never happened that way because Abuzola and some others came along and started causing trouble, derailing the thread. That action of derailing the thread is what I find barbaric, because I do not derail the thread when I am on other threads answering as a Christian apologetic.

And THAT is the nub of the matter.

Well, I think that there are better ways that you can relieve your dis-ease. The way things are going, we'll just have a spiral of ever worsening quality of debate. Abuzola didn't just appear by magic. He was provoked into becoming what he is. So we have a feedback loop. Obnoxious 'christians' create Abuzolas. Abuzolas incite 'christians' to attack islam, Attacks on Islam create more Abuzolas. These Abuzolas create even more obnoxious 'christians' etc etc etc. The cycle is endless.

Pastor AIO:

Well, I think that there are better ways that you can relieve your dis-ease. The way things are going, we'll just have a spiral of ever worsening quality of debate. Abuzola didn't just appear by magic. He was provoked into becoming what he is. So we have a feedback loop. Obnoxious 'christians' create Abuzolas. Abuzolas incite 'christians' to attack islam, Attacks on Islam create more Abuzolas. These Abuzolas create even more obnoxious 'christians' etc etc etc. The cycle is endless.

Amen to that!!

At first I kinda understood where she was coming from as I thought it was just a spontaneous reaction to some kinda provocation. But over time it has just become more and more nonsensical. This debate became nauseating a long time ago. It's just another "My God strong pass ur own" episode and belongs in a kindergarten playground IMO.

@A K O: « #107 on: Today at 08:25:53 AM »

Quote from: olabowale on Yesterday at 02:26:09 AM
I can accept the ostrich syndrome of many on the "fallacies of Quran, and similar threads"

Then I guess the next step is for you and your likes like Abuzola is to just respect yourselves and be quiet, instead of derailing threads time and time again. . .

and allow you an unfettered platform to lie? You must be joking!

« #108 on: Today at 08:35:04 AM »
@olabowale: You say that Christ was blaming his God for forsaking him. Let me teach you wisdom and truth. Not only was it a physical burden of crucifixion for Christ, it was a spiritual burden that NO MAN HAD EVER EXPERIENCED.

Was this a subjective opinion or a proof came from the mouth of Jesus? I am certain the former is the case and we see how zealots can come up with anything and make it look real; like Cheney's Niger Yellow Cake forWMD in Iraq!

All of man's sins in the past, present and future were placed on ONE MAN at once.

This is unreal except if one is so subjective in thought that reality cant be accepedt that this porous opinion, from others and not from Jesus himself could be considered as the quality of jesus. By the way, killing a tree that is following the law that govern trees is a sin. No? If it is what happened to Jesus's sin of killing a tree that did not have any fruit because its off season, and if he was a God, shouldnt he had just brought about fruits on the Tree? I guess he should have commanded the tree to bring up fruits enough to satisfy his need. No? If he did and the tree did not get weighted down with fruits on it, then know that "of his own power, he was able to do nothing", and if he had prayed, that was a prayer that was unacceptade! Can you imaging a food eating, unable to do this on his own and a prayer not acceptable when made entity, yet some calls that entity God? Is that a God or a mislabelled entity?

God had to turn away because he can't stand sin.

Is this God the Creator Who is the Knower of everything, from before begining and up to and beyond after the end? I doubt if what is described in the above sentence is the real God, because his knowledge is not complete, now turning away because he cant stand sins of his creations, while he is supposed to be the Forgiver of Sins? Is the Creator not the Forgiver of Sins, why turn away now because he can stand what he is supposed to be doing, forgiving sins?

For the first time, Jesus experienced spiritual disconnection from God, and just like Adam ran away in the garden of Eden, Jesus' own expression as the last Adam (1 Cor 15:45) was to cry out in anguish.

Now we see that there is God, and he aint Jesus. And again, because the weakness and limitation of jesus is now obvious he is now being lionized by comparing him to Adam who is fatherless, motherless and no multitude witnessed his humiliation, and no one among us know his grave, yet he was made a human while a fatherless Jesus is elevated to a deity!

As a child it is reported that 3 wise men boy down to him, but Joseph; his whole family including jacob prostrated their face to him like what the muslims do for their Creator, yet Joseph is not God. Moses the Bible said he saw god face to face or his back (funny thing that is sickening if the earth can carry its Creator), and yet in another verse no one can see God and live, a complete opposite of the first premise, yet Moses with all that saviorship was not made God! The bones of dead Elijah or was it Elisha raised up a dead man, yet he was not made God. Elisha or Elijah was carried to heaven, no returning to earth yet to die, all of these are in Christian Bible, yet he is not God.

I ask myself, is there anything that qualifies Jesus to be considered to be more than human messenger, prophet of his people, since he said I am not send (there must be a Sender, and usually a Sender you cant refuse his authority is the Authority) but to the lost Sheep of the house of israel, so where do Yoruba people fit in this equation that they have to be tripping over themselves into something similar to ogun worship? I said similar meaning like.

This terrible debate again!

Can we just let Christians and Moslems get on with their faith? Am yet to read of any nairalander that got converted based on the "debates" here. The debates are really pointless, with little cerebral input and often lead to abuse and exasperation. This is a result of lack of active moderation, and the Religion section needs it big time.

As a Christian and I am convinced that there is truth in Christianity but not absolute truth, just as I believe that Islam holds some truth, but not absolute truth. Do you blame the moslem for insisting that Jesus is not God? Or do you blame the Christian who says that Islam is a joke?

From a Moslem perspective God cannot be man and could not have suffered death. For Christians mohammed is a False prophet, Allah is a false God, so many issues to deal with but having threads without active moderation cannot help guys who want to debate across the reigion divide. I would strongly suggest the following:

A) Parties who want to debate across religion lines must be actively moderated
B) Ground rules need to be set by the moderator and strictly adhered to.
C) Posts off topic must be deleted and for repeat cases, ban the posters.
D) I would also wager that the age of the debater is important, but I note that you cannot police this

I once got a love quote from songs of solomon,when the lady got the text,she was so happy.I told her i got it from the bible,she didnt believe.,scientific fact has supported the genesis of man as claimed by the Quran,,so what fallacy is poster realy talkin about

@Mavenbox

Hope you are doing good.

please could you kindly post a question at a time and we address it becaue I can see that you know so much about religions and I love learning from your type but please I dont like stories, let it be precise with facts please from both books.

Looking forward to hearing from you.

@Luvola,what has come over you,and warranted you to call ALHAJI OLABOWALE names?is he your mate?you berra mind your language on him cos i see no reason why you should cos he has not in anyway said anything offensive on this thread,or is it simply cos Alhaji Abuzola and co Muslims are spreading the truth thats why you are here BARKING like rapid DOG

@BABS787,OMG,where av you been for heavens sake?we all missed you,ur sister NIMOTALLAHI is enjoying ISLAM O

@all muslims,Verse Abrogating Verse Abrogated Issue
2:185 2:184 Fasting
2:234 2:240 Divorced women
2:285 2:284 Revelations
3:85-6; 9:73 2:62; 2:256; 5:69 Tolerance - Ahl al-Kitab
4:11-12 2:180; 2:240 Bequest-Inheritance
5:90 2:219; 4:43 Wine drinking
8:66 8:65 Fighting abilities
9:29 2:109; 60:8-9 People of the Book
9:36 2:217; 45:14 Prohibition of fighting
22:52 53:19-23 Satan and his daughters
24:2 4:15-7 Adultery and fornication
33:50 33:52 Muhammad's wives
58:13 58:12 Money for conferring
64:16 3:102 Fear of God
73:20 73:2-3 Night prayer
ABROGATIONS IN KORAN , HOW FUNNY IT'S , THEY WILL BE CLAIMING THEY ARE BOOK IS AUTHENTIC. PEOPLE ON HERE I HAVE THOUSANDS TO SHOW YOU JUST WAIT

@allmuslims, CAN ANY MUSLIMS PROOF ME WRONG OF THESE , Sura 1 - Absent in Ibn Mas’ud version (The Fihrist p.57). Ibn Mas’ud was a personal secretary of Mohammed’s. Mohammed told other people to learn the Qur’an from Ibn Mas’ud and three others. (Bukhari vol.6 book 60 no.521 p.486-487)

Sura 1:5 hiyaka vs. iyaka

Sura 1:6 irshadna vs. ihdina

Sura 2:10 yakdhibuuna (Hafs) vs. Sura 2:9 yukadhibuuna (Warsh)
Sura 2:106: "And for whatever verse We abrogate or cast into oblivion, We bring a better or the like of it" did not originally have "or the like of it."

Sura 2:132 wawassaa (Hafs) vs. sura 2:131 wa’awsaa (Warsh)

Sura 2:132 himu (Hafs) vs. Sura 131 hiimu (Warsh)

Sura 2:140 taquluna (Hafs) vs. Sura 2:139 yaguluna (Warsh .SO, CAN ANY MUSLIM EXPLAIN? IF NOT SHAME ONE ALLAH . ALLAH WAS DRUNK WHEN HE MAKING THE FIRST STATEMENT DUE TO ENOUGH WATER OF WINE AND THOUSAND OF VIRGIN BUSY ROMANCING ALLAH SO WHY WON'T HIM MADE A MISTAKE .

Krayola:

haha. mavenbox has shown herself to be just another irrational, illogical fanatic disguising her fanaticism as intellectualism. Her contrived arguments for Christianity (conveniently ignoring Christianity's violent history that makes Jihadists look like saints) show her to be grossly biased and incapable of any honest assessment of ANYTHING!!

Let me run into hiding before she sends holy spirit to come and roast me   .  Enjoy your "holy" crusade.

You have totally read me wrongly!   I am not like that. But if only you read what I said, you will understand better. True that the Conquistadors and other such who did their damage, but we are talking about PRESENT TIME. I hope you understand. But it doesn't matter, its mea culpa. My mistake.

Pastor AIO:

Well, I think that there are better ways that you can relieve your dis-ease.  The way things are going, we'll just have a spiral of ever worsening quality of debate.  Abuzola didn't just appear by magic.  He was provoked into becoming what he is.  So we have a feedback loop.  Obnoxious 'christians' create Abuzolas.  Abuzolas incite 'christians' to attack islam,  Attacks on Islam create more Abuzolas.  These Abuzolas create even more obnoxious 'christians' etc etc etc.  The cycle is endless.  

This is the most helpful comment I have seen anywhere on nairaland, trust me. As you can see from my profile, my cumulative time on NL is just a little over 3 days. Im rather new here and I'm often busy. Thanks for the advice, I will proceed along those self-same indicated (positive) lines of action and ignore this thread.

Krayola:

Amen to that!!

At first I kinda understood where she was coming from as I thought it was just a spontaneous reaction to some kinda provocation. But over time it has just become more and more nonsensical. This debate became nauseating a long time ago. It's just another "My God strong pass your own" episode and belongs in a kindergarten playground IMO.

You do not know me, Krayola. The above is a simple assumption, as I can only hope you will soon understand. True, I never intended to start out with a high level of rile, but I allowed to Abuzola to start me on that path, and when Olabowale started ignoring my initial reasons for the thread, begging the questions and derailing the thread, I let that get to me as well. Read my attached post to Marlbron below to see that you have considered me falsely. Cheers.

Marlbron:

This terrible debate again!

[b]Can we just let Christians and Moslems get on with their faith? Am yet to read of any nairalander that got converted based on the "debates" here. The debates are really pointless, with little cerebral input and often lead to abuse and exasperation. [/b]This is a result of lack of active moderation, and the Religion section needs it big time.

Interestingly, Marlbron, the reason I started this thread is not to try to convert muslims based on the debate. So why did I start? You may need to see my first post to get the picture. I visited the religion thread, and being new to Nairaland, I saw arguments on the veracity of the Bible and its concepts of truth. And some Muslims were saying the koran was perfect and had no such errors, logical or semantic. But that is something that I knew as far back as my years in the theological school: i had studied such things ages ago. So I whooped out my old notes to prove a point, but before I did so, I googled NL forums and saw that some few people had made attempts at presenting their views about errors in the koran, but the efforts were not concerted as such, and the evidence of those errors were not all in one place. So i created a new thread, and when it was overcome with irrelevancies, I made a sequel thread, and the same fate befell it. It takes no prophet to know it will all lead to an endless whorl of actions, and there will be no profit at the end of the day, only vitriol and rile will pervade the atmosphere. In another one year or less, another mavenbox will come to NL and the loop resumes.

So that you can know that I speak the truth about my original intents, I have included my reasons for making the post below, trying to be rational and straightforward. I hope the inclusion of the quote will work properly. It is on the first PAGE of my initial thread called "Just a tip of the Iceberg, etc"

mavenbox link=topic=349654.msg4894415#msg4894415:

, (i was starting to get angry here so I was replying some people like ARmanx who were "foaming at the mouth". It may not be palatable for general reading so I omiitted them),

If you are a Muslim, I think you should ask your Imam about Nasikh verses in the Koran, otherwise just leave matters as they are.

I do not understand why people love deceiving themselves. Even the greatest of erudite Muslim scholars know that there are errors that are not reconcilable in the Koran, and for 1400 years they have tried to sort them out. And yet, some ignorant imbeciles on Nairaland keep posting "so so and so mistakes in the Bible" everywhere they get the space to post such. The truth is that even as a Christian, I KNOW that there are some errors in the Bible that are believed by scholars to be due to translation and also due to the weakness of the English language, which is often too poor to hold the true meaning of the original Greek and Hebrew words.

[size=14pt]TRUE MUSLIM AND CHRISTIAN SCHOLARS KNOW THE SEMANTIC ERRORS IN THEIR HOLY BOOKS, AND THEY RECEIVE THE BOOKS BY FAITH WITHOUT STARTING FOOLISH ARGUMENTS.[/size]

Although, here on Nairaland, I have had some few arguments WHENEVER the Bible is quoted out of context or deliberately misrepresented. But for verses like Saul's conversion (light/sound experienced by those with Saul) and some other ones like that, you wont find me saying anything because it is actually true!

[size=15pt]So, why did I start this post? I am only trying to ask: why is it that Muslims feel so free to attack Christians, who will be expected to be on the silent receiving end? And when Christians respond, we see insane posts like the one by Yemium, screaming blue murder and talking about killing people? When those posts are made and the name of my God is dragged in the mud, we have to sit and stare in silence?[/size]

[size=18pt]

The end of the matter is this: FAITH IS NOT BUILT ON MATTERS SUCH AS WORDS IN ANY "HOLY BOOK" or the other. THE "HOLY BOOK" is meant to be a guide to help you get started. Whether you are a Muslim or a Christian or a Buddhist or whatever, get started with the recommended Book and grow in your God by communication and daily practice of what He/She/It (your "god" tells you. And if you're an Atheist, I recommend that you visit the Jokes section and leave the Religion section.[/size]

That's all.

(more anger-laden text ommitted)

And there it is. I hope you see where things were meant to have ended. I used the thread to prove a point that faith is not something you can explain away using common knowledge, and I hoped to achieve that by making the muslims reason in the same vein that the numerous posts against the Bible were unfounded, foolish and unnecessary. I used myself as a pawn in a gambit to achieve that purpose. But I guess it was never achieved.

I rest my case.

My next post will be the last on this thread.

@Jcross22: Abeg leave that argument matter. You can't convert anyone by arguments. Trust me, its not worth it. But then, I cant force you. Please do as you will. I am gradually learning how NOT to step on toes in the Religion section, being careful with words, and two wise men I have learnt a lot from are A_K_O and Pastor AIO. Its not that I am afraid of anyone, after all nobody on Nairaland knows ANYTHING about me, anything anybody claims to know (except my IP address and username, and registration email) is mere speculation and may not be true. My reason is in the Bible verse I quoted for babs787 below: courteous respect. Thanks!

@olabowale: I apologize for my perceived insolence. I guess I just felt cheated, because I don't make attempts to derail threads that don't agree with my viewpoint. I am sorry, and I wish you all the best in the revelation and actualization of your religion / faith in Islam.

@babs787: I am not (no longer) open to religious debates. However If you want to discuss my faith, we will need to do that on another thread. The link is below, I just created it. Best regards!

https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-352961.0.html#msg4939839

in line with

[size=13pt]AMPLIFIED BIBLE
1st Peter 3:15  But in your hearts set Christ apart as holy [and acknowledge Him] as Lord. Always be ready to give a logical defense to anyone who asks you to account for the hope that is in you, but do it courteously and respectfully. [Isa. 8:12, 13.] [/size]

@Abuzola and others that I used very harsh words against: Please accept my apologies as well. As you can see, I am new here. I am not apologizing for the ideas I presented, which I still believe to be true, but I apologize for my manner of approach. Let everyman believe what they will, and let God be God.

@Everyone else: There's a funny saying that "Women have the last say in an argument, whatever happens after that is a new argument."  but that is not a statement I subscribe to. Please feel free to post after this, but be assured that I will not return here. See you on another thread!

@all muslims,‘Uthman, Editor of God?
When the Watergate Scandal hit America, the guilty people were not only the ones who stole the Watergate documents, but also the ones who covered it up. While the previous tract discussed many changes in the Qur’an, this tract discusses not just changes but also the cover-up by the Caliph ‘Uthman. He threatened anyone with death if they did not turn in their Qur’an to him, so that he could burn them and re-issue new Qur’ans. Fortunately some early copies were not turned in, and we can see some of the changes that were made.
In Bukhari vol.6:525,526 Qatada and Anas relate that in the time of the prophet [i.e. before ‘Uthman’s rule], four people "collected" the Qur’an: Ubai, Mu’adh, Zaid bin Thabit, and Abu Zaid.
In Bukhari vol.1 chapter 8 p.56: "Anas says that Uthman got the Qur’an compiled and sent a few of its copies to far off places". Bukhari vol.4:709 p.466 says, "‘Uthman called Zaid bin Thabit, ‘Abdullah bin Az-Zubair, Sa’id bin Al-‘As, and ‘Abdur-Rahman bin Al-Harith bin Hisham and then they wrote the manuscripts of the Holy Qur’an in the form of a book in several copies".
The Qur’an used to have manjavascript:void(0);y different readings, but ‘Uthman got rid of all but one. al-Tabari vol.15 p.156
uslims claim that God’s Word, the Qur’an, will never be corrupted. Be that as it may, apparently some years after Mohammed’s death, the Qur’an needed standardizing, since Caliph ‘Uthman standardized the Qur’an way after Mohammed’s death. Apparently in order that nobody could second-guess his editing, he burned almost all copies besides his standard ones. (Bukhari vol.6:510 p.479) For example, Ubai had several Suras in his Qur’an that ‘Uthman omitted from the standardized text, and thus Muslims do not read today. The Meccan Abdollah Sarh, who once made suggestions to Mohammed, and later renounced Islam, was killed. Presumably he knew too much about how Mohammed changed the Qur’an. However, a few very interesting variant copies did survive and are now in the Azhyar Library in Cairo.

The 8th sura (al-Anfal) may have originally included the 9th sura (al-Tawbah). al-Tabari vol.11 p.94 footnote 525

@mavenbox, thanks so much but for me i don't care am not afraid of anything on here okay am not here to abuse anybody but through this medium some who have misguided by some religion superstitions can be set free and know the true God ,unless if the GOD AM SERVING IS NOT ON HIS THRONE or is NOT A LIVING GOD, THIS IS NOT THE END I WILL TAKE THIS ROUND THE WORLD BY THIS SOME BLIND MUSLIMS CAN KNOW THE TRUTH OF THEIR RELIGION AND BE SET FREE, YOU ARE FUNNY AFRAID OF FLESH LIKE ME , ALLAH OR WHO. EXCEPT GOD FINISH.

haha. @ mavenbox. Abeg no vex. Me i just dey talk my own. I just think we should try and be respectful of each other's beliefs instead of dragging them in the mud. We are all trying to be decent people which is why we are interested in religion in the first place. I doubt anyone that isn't trying to be a better person cares what God, any God, has to offer. Religion, IMO, isn't about logic, or rationality, or even belief in any diety. It is about acknowleding that there is something greater than us behind all that we see, and trying to connect with it in whatever way that registers with us (individually) as valid. One man's meat is another man's poison. Let's just live and let live. 

SOME PEOPLE WITH THEIR OPINION THIS THREAD IS NOT FOR THE PEOPLE WHO ARE ON HERE BUT FOR SOME GUEST WHO MISTAKE COME ACROSS THIS SITE. I THINK THIS IS NOT BAD SINCE WE USED TO SEE FACE TO FACE DEBATE SO I DON'T THINK IS BAD AND FOR THOSE WHO USE CHARM , GOING AND USE YOUR CHARM, NO ONE WILL TELL YOU WHEN IT WILL BOUNCE BACK ON YOU . NOTHING WILL HAPPEN AS FAR THERE IS LIVING GOD .