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Gravity Visualized by wiegraf: 9:06pm On Feb 03, 2017 |
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MTY1Kje0yLg This one is especially for you, uyiiredia of space does not curve. 3 Likes 1 Share |
Re: Gravity Visualized by Dawdy(m): 10:44pm On Feb 03, 2017 |
Gravity is hoax. |
Re: Gravity Visualized by UyiIredia(m): 3:57pm On Feb 04, 2017 |
wiegraf:So a professor demonstrates 'space curving' using a cloth on a trampoline |
Re: Gravity Visualized by johnydon22(m): 4:49pm On Feb 04, 2017 |
UyiIredia:tell me your own idea |
Re: Gravity Visualized by UyiIredia(m): 4:55pm On Feb 04, 2017 |
johnydon22: Not an idea but a fact. Space is nothing or emptiness. All physical things from the subatomic to the galactic exist within that context. |
Re: Gravity Visualized by wiegraf: 5:37pm On Feb 04, 2017 |
UyiIredia: I don't think he's a prof, but yes..... |
Re: Gravity Visualized by wiegraf: 5:50pm On Feb 04, 2017 |
UyiIredia: That is no scientific fact, at all Not even sure it holds philosophically. Do you understand what true nothingness entails? |
Re: Gravity Visualized by UyiIredia(m): 5:50pm On Feb 04, 2017 |
wiegraf: This is idiotic. Space is not a material. All the professor showed was that a stretched cloth curves when masses are applied on it. |
Re: Gravity Visualized by wiegraf: 5:51pm On Feb 04, 2017 |
Re: Gravity Visualized by UyiIredia(m): 5:56pm On Feb 04, 2017 |
wiegraf: It is actually. Because it is apparent that all objects (invisible or visible) exist in a context that is immaterial. This is best seen in the case of our solar system with numerous pictures of planets hanging in a vast, dark emptiness. Note that I said space is nothing or emptiness. This is different from true nothingness where nothing exists at all (no matter, no God, absolutely nothing). Again, all objects exist in an emptiness that is not physical in any sense. |
Re: Gravity Visualized by wiegraf: 6:01pm On Feb 04, 2017 |
UyiIredia: It has material properties, like dimensions. The force carrying particles aren't 'materials' either, but they have material properties as well, despite the fact you can have multiple of them occupying the same space... What is your problem here? Is it lack of imagination? Oya, explain why relativity accurately predicts and explains things like gravitational lensing and Mercury's orbit? |
Re: Gravity Visualized by wiegraf: 6:08pm On Feb 04, 2017 |
UyiIredia: So, because you can't see anything there, that means it is empty? Great thinking there... UyiIredia: That 'emptiness' has properties that have physical effects... |
Re: Gravity Visualized by UyiIredia(m): 6:18pm On Feb 04, 2017 |
wiegraf: That doesn't make it material. Otherwise you would be able to ascribe other material properties to it like momentum, energy, length etc. Unlike matter, the dimensions of space are not and cannot be limited to a given area (which BTW is defined by a region in space). wiegraf: They are. Photons are the force carrying particles for the electromagnetic force. Humans see photons at the frequencies in the visible spectrum. wiegraf: I'm not the one with the problem. You are. wiegraf: Good maths and guesswork. That doesn't make Einstein's posit less silly. Newton ascribed gravity as an attractive force that is sufficient to explain the occurrences you stated. |
Re: Gravity Visualized by johnydon22(m): 6:19pm On Feb 04, 2017 |
UyiIredia: Lol speaking with so much confidence does not in fact validate an idea as fact - anyway moving on.. now what makes objects float in this emptiness? under what physical laws makes this possible and using that term explain gravitational attraction, orbits and cosmic expansion again emptiness is not exactly same as nothing.... |
Re: Gravity Visualized by johnydon22(m): 6:22pm On Feb 04, 2017 |
wiegraf: i think you guys are misrepresenting the very concept of material, that something is unseen doesnt make it immaterial.. |
Re: Gravity Visualized by UyiIredia(m): 6:25pm On Feb 04, 2017 |
wiegraf: Did I not also mention that this applies to invisible objects? How stupid could you be? I used that example as visual evidence. wiegraf: State the physical properties of the 'emptiness'. Apart from dimensions. Any matter has several physical properties. The same should be true of space if it is material as you claim. |
Re: Gravity Visualized by UyiIredia(m): 6:27pm On Feb 04, 2017 |
johnydon22: Which is why I mentioned invisible objects in the comment he quoted. I am not misrepresenting anything. It is those who claim space curves or is material that are misrepresenting an immaterial entity as a material one. |
Re: Gravity Visualized by johnydon22(m): 6:34pm On Feb 04, 2017 |
UyiIredia:visualizing gravity as an attractive force or a curvature of space-time arent really any distant from each other cus attractive bodies are achievable in a curvable space as the video wiegraf posted showed. so Einstein's position does not refute Newton's postulation but rather validates it things like blackholes, gravitational ripples are only possible in a space that curves which means that there is an underlining quality that is space more than just the emptiness the impression reveals in a physical sense. i am still waiting for your explanation of orbits in an empty space |
Re: Gravity Visualized by UyiIredia(m): 6:36pm On Feb 04, 2017 |
johnydon22: You are fond of handwaving away points without making credible refutations. If you think space is material, falsify my claim that space is nothing by stating physical properties of space. Any material entity has several physical properties. johnydon22: That is the mystery isn't it? How come the universe (stars, planets, comets etc) is suspended in infinite space without anything below to support it? johnydon22: It depends on the definition one uses. Some definitions of emptiness mean nothing. I just used the word 'emptiness' to reinforce my point that space is nothing (is not a physical thing). If you claim space (or nothing) is material, which is illogical BTW you better tell me its material properties. |
Re: Gravity Visualized by UyiIredia(m): 6:48pm On Feb 04, 2017 |
Edit. See below. |
Re: Gravity Visualized by UyiIredia(m): 6:48pm On Feb 04, 2017 |
johnydon22: Matter curves, we see that. Even for invisible matter we see it curves by its effect on visible matter eg when air blows a feather etc. That video is just one more example of matter curving not space-time curving. We need to clarify terms at this point. Define what you mean by space. For me, by space I mean nothing. johnydon22: I don't accept that space curves. So I can't accept that. You'll need to define what you mean by space, and substantiate that definition. You also use circular logic here. You insist that certain things can't occur without space curving then use that to support the notion that space is more than just emptiness, which is bound to be the case if you think space curves. Note the logic: some things can't occur without space curving therefore space is more than just emptiness. johnydon22: Planetary orbits are attributed to gravity. The suspension of the universe in space is a mystery. Clearly, some force holds it in space and presumably permeates all of space. |
Re: Gravity Visualized by johnydon22(m): 7:04pm On Feb 04, 2017 |
UyiIredia:isn't that what you did on wiegrafs post, making a confident claim that somehow you think to be credible just because you said it. There is no refutation to be tendered here, throughout antiquity the Philosophy of space has always boggled the human mind, many have brought their ideas of what space is or likely is and these arguments have persisted through time. it was once conceived to possess aethers, waterlike cosmic materials that make objects float in space, some has imagined a static independent plain just like Newton whereas many have added a geometrical property to space known as Dimension which modern physics adds a fourth dimension [time] - spacetime continuum. theories are devised to explain observed facts and throughout the history of space philosophy the main idea that more sufficiently explains the relationship of matter and space is the conception of space as a geometrical plane in which matter interferes with the geometrical structure.. this well more sufficiently explains orbits, gravitation or relativity more than any space model - i am not here to make confident remarks as you claiming validity, i am here to have a sound discussion aimed at establishing what is most likely right not to fight or claim to be right. that more so is the observation that brings up the philosophical position of space being something right from ancient times, so we could say that the displacement of spacetime geometrical structure solves this problem as modern physics has established. you would imagine a cosmos with empty space and stars within and then begin to wonder what holds these objects - or you could imagine a cosmos with space that actively interacts with the objects within [mass] to produce result [gravity] - these are varying ideas and i wont waste time to argue correctness cus it will still fall back to subjectivity of ideas. exactly the point, emptiness doesn't really mean not physical.. |
Re: Gravity Visualized by johnydon22(m): 7:15pm On Feb 04, 2017 |
UyiIredia:quick question - will it be correct to assert that since matter curves nothing else can even it possess a geometrical structure. - and please the video was used as a demonstration to mimick the relationship between space and matter, just like an analogy - habba then wiegraf must understand that this is where the problem lies - subjective definition of the subject being debated. space, as physics goes is a plain with geometrical points on which matter exist within - so the property of space as a geometrical structure [points] makes it a curvable plain going by this definition. well i am going to drop here and not say no more since obviously the debate is based on subjective definitions which surely will not bring forth any result. since you dont accept physical phenomenons like gravitational ripples and blackholes simply because it contradicts your idea of space - i cannot help you then, though it makes a curious thought how then you accept orbits and even mass. and then give me one example of cosmological events that dont curve spacetime explain gravity that's the problem - under what physical interactions is gravity birthed
some force - here we go, driving back to the point.. is this force a property of space or independent of space - can space exist without this force or is this force a kind of innate property of the emptiness. just a mention of this 'force' drives space to be far from nothing after all which then is consonant with your arguments here - or by soem force are we going back to the days of the aethers? 1 Like |
Re: Gravity Visualized by wiegraf: 7:21pm On Feb 04, 2017 |
UyiIredia: Ser genius, that using that example is particularly asinine should be self evident. It's like stating that because a blind man can't see anything, that means it's empty all around him. See?? UyiIredia: Where did I say that it was filled with matter?? I'm careful to use material in quotes for a reason. Or would bosons qualify as matter to you? I said space has properties that has physical effects. These effects include the aforementioned gravitational lensing, effects on time and matter. Heck, gravity itself is an effect in a sense. And if you want direct proof of the agent responsible for warping space, do you know gravitational waves were recently spotted? 1 Like 1 Share |
Re: Gravity Visualized by johnydon22(m): 7:22pm On Feb 04, 2017 |
cc. teempakguy queed here is something interesting going on now - lets have fun again in this science section |
Re: Gravity Visualized by johnydon22(m): 7:25pm On Feb 04, 2017 |
wiegraf:Gravity is an effect not an uncaused value as Uyil would have us believe - well let's wait for his own idea on the causality of gravity .. again i would suggest you both try not to turn this into something personal by using insutive words and persoanl remarks - we may all be wrong still |
Re: Gravity Visualized by wiegraf: 7:35pm On Feb 04, 2017 |
UyiIredia: Once again, space has properties. Gravity, or its curvature, is one of such properties. What in the world do you mean by the bolded? And because an object has dimensions, that means its container cannot posses dimensions? UyiIredia: Wow. So because you can see photons, that makes them real, lol. What about the other particles that can be detected via other means but are not on the visual spectrum, like that Higgs Boson that was recently observed, it doesn't exist? It didn't exist before it was detected?? UyiIredia: Kayi... He also said was instantaneous, this has already been proven false. It also doesn't account for various other effects, effects I am tired of listing. Now, you've been provided with evidence after evidence after evidence, and your reply is to hand wave it away because you can't see it. Nice going |
Re: Gravity Visualized by UyiIredia(m): 7:44pm On Feb 04, 2017 |
johnydon22: I proffered the evidence that all objects visible or otherwise exist in a context lacking material properties. I also asked that my claim that space is nothing be falsified by stating the physical properties of space. So there is a basis to my claim. I'm aware of the philosophy of space and the fact that illogical arguments like those of Leibniz's have been brought. johnydon22: Aethers are material existing in space. They aren't space itself. johnydon22: Note that space is conceptualised as a geometrical plane. It has not actually been shown to be a geometrical plane itself. Besides, what would the geometrical plane exist in if not space. Geometries by definition occupy regions of space like matter. johnydon22: And you are not making confident remarks? More handwaving and hypocrisy. johnydon22: The only way space is something is that it has being (in other words, it exists). Other than that it is not material. Geometries like mass exist in space, they are extended in space and are a demonstrable fundamental property of various objects. Since you claim space-time has geometrical structure that mean space-time occupies a finite area, it is movable (you can't curve without moving) and it is divisible. Can you forward actual observations showing such? johnydon22: Obviously nothing physical holds these objects. johnydon22: Once again you fail to show physical properties of space. |
Re: Gravity Visualized by UyiIredia(m): 8:43pm On Feb 04, 2017 |
johnydon22: Anything that has a geometrical structure is material and can curve. I regard geometry as a fundamental property of matter which is verified by the fact that length is a fundamental unit in physics. johnydon22: Well it is a poor analogy because it is matter that has geometry not space. Note that an infinite geometry makes no sense. Geometries are always finite because they occupy specified areas IN space. johnydon22: But there are such things as facts. They are not subjective. johnydon22: This is wrong. Planes are 2-dimensional. Space is 3-dimensional. Planes have a fixed are, space does not. In fact, your definition is not what Wikipedia uses. Go to their page on space and confirm. johnydon22: Definitions should be as objective as possible. There is still room for debate. johnydon22: I did not say I don't accept those physical phenomena it is the explanation using space curvature that I don't accept. johnydon22: How can anything curve space if it is nothing? johnydon22: Why should I explain gravity? Gravity is a fundamental force existing between objects. In the context of physical laws it requires no explanation. It just exists. If I asked you to explain space what would be your reply? johnydon22: This involves speculation which I do not have to give. As an atheist, you should be well aware of the fact that one cannot, nor does one have to answer every question. johnydon22: See above. But then if force is something, what is it? |
Re: Gravity Visualized by LightningLord: 8:50pm On Feb 04, 2017 |
johnydon22: wiegraf here, the ban bot is doing its thing, so I'm going to limit the amount of links in this post. No be today me and am don start dis talk https://www.nairaland.com/1420738/how-prove-atheist-god-exists/14 https://www.nairaland.com/1325844/used-respect-deism....until-met-deists/1 And others... To save you the trouble involved in reading through all that, here's an answer to the bolded uyi: And uyi: To be fair, he's come a long way from claiming consciousness was imbued in us by god via telekinesis uyi: And other such highlights. Goot times! Though methinks I've spent a little too much time here, but meh |
Re: Gravity Visualized by UyiIredia(m): 9:03pm On Feb 04, 2017 |
wiegraf: Again what was my statement about invisible objects? Are you going to claim invisible objects don't exist in space? Or that the Earth doesn't exist in space? wiegraf: You don't have to state it. wiegraf: What reason? And yes bosons are material. Photons are bosons. We see them, they exist in space, they are material and have material properties readily described. wiegraf: That something has physical effects doesn't make it physical. Emotions have physical effects on the body, they aren't physical. To show that something is physical you have to show that it has physical properties. wiegraf: You don't even know your science. Gravitational waves are ripples in space-time moving at lightspeed. Ripples are a type of warp. How then can you say gravitational waves cause a warp in space when they are a warp in space? Didn't Einstein even define gravity as a warp (or curve) in space-time caused by mass? |
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