@ trini_girl,
i'm sure 4Play was refering to goodguy in his write-up and not you.

goodguy:

Now, will this person be condemned to death on that basis?  Sure!  Reason? - Based on the fact that the Singaporean goverment comprises human beings that believe in that bullshit of a law that "Ignorance is not an excuse".  It's a good thing bari_kade has even cleared that one because for someone to travel to a country at all, one must have studied the rules and regulations guiding that country, and can definitely not claim ignorance of any sort, especially concerning crimes in that country, on that basis.

So you see, that analogy of yours is flawed.

going by your own rules, is it not possible to assume that for someone who thinks he wants to go to heaven it would be a priority to ensure you have adequately studied the rules and regulations (the bible) guiding heaven? Do you assume because God is not man then he also has no guidelines or codes of behaviour that characterize those that would be in heaven? Why do you assume that those who are not "convinced" about the message of salvation including those who scoff at the very idea of God and an after life should be automatically entitled to heaven on the excuse that they were not "convinced" enough?

Why then should anyone bother to be a christian? why don't we all continue in sin and use the "not convinced" trump card on the day of judgement?

Unfortunately the God i serve does not run a sympathy party. Read this: Heb 11: 6 But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.

lol

good serve davidylan!

davidylan:

Here is a puzzle for you mr. goodguy. What is the essence of evangelism if those who don't believe and are nt convinced still go to heaven anyway?

Here's a puzzle for you as well Mr. davidylan.  What is the essence of evangelism, since God knows fully well that there are people that still won't make heaven, no matter the amount of preaching?

By the way, I never said people that are not convinced will enter heaven, and I don't think they will go to hell either.  But what I believe is that God will judge everyone differently.

davidylan:

Why did Christ make this statement, . . . he that believeth not is condemned already? Was that a statement of an uncaring individual?

This would depend on the state of the mind of Jesus when He made that statement. "He that believeth not. . ."  Belief on what basis exactly?  Those that consciously chose to believeth not despite knowing the truth, or those that believeth not because of some of the reasons highlighted by Grouppoint?

Personally, me thinks the unbelievers Jesus talked about are the ones described in Hebrew 6:4-6 - "For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame."

Another case is that of Lucifer.  He knew the truth, but still went ahead to rebel against God.  I believe it is him and his likes that are condemned already.

davidylan:

going by your own rules, is it not possible to assume that for someone who thinks he wants to go to heaven it would be a priority to ensure you have adequately studied the rules and regulations (the bible) guiding heaven?

Again, you're missing out the fact that there are billions of others that believe in God, but do not see Him the Christian way.  In this case, I believe God will use whatever they associate with Him, to judge them.

davidylan:

Do you assume because God is not man then he also has no guidelines or codes of behaviour that characterize those that would be in heaven?

No.  Actually, I should be asking you if you assume God has just one particular set of guidelines for all mankind, irrespective of what religion they belong to.  If you admit that is the case, then you wouldn't be painting God as good.

davidylan:

Why do you assume that those who are not "convinced" about the message of salvation including those who scoff at the very idea of God and an after life should be automatically entitled to heaven on the excuse that they were not "convinced" enough?

Again, they wouldn't be the one to give excuses.  God will jugde everyone accordingly.

davidylan:

Why then should anyone bother to be a christian? why don't we all continue in sin and use the "not convinced" trump card on the day of judgement?

Only the truth sets one free (John 8:32).  For those who know the truth, and continue to sin, they shouldn't expect mercy.  But for those that really do not know, well, the God I serve is a Merciful One.

davidylan:

Unfortunately the God i serve does not run a sympathy party.

Your use of "unfortunately" here shows that even you expect God to be merciful to those that are genuinely ignorant, but you think He isn't.  Well, the good news is, He is Merciful.

davidylan:

Read this: Heb 11: 6 But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.

I believe this applies to the atheists alone.  Even then, I don't believe God will condemn the good ones among them to hell.  They may not enter heaven, I don't think they'll rot in hell either.

All in all, John tells us what was revealed to him in Rev 20:12 - ". . . and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works."

trini_girl:

I think the problem you are having is that you seem to think a person needs to be "convinced" into being saved.

Salvation is not a matter of being convinced, it is a matter of ACCEPTANCE.  One can only accept when they are open, willing and ready. The gospel is quite simple.

I think the problem you're having is that you seem to forget that CONVICTION precedes ACCEPTANCE.  How on earth do you expect someone you preached to, and wasn't convinced to just accept "because the Bible says so".  This is why I said earlier that everyone of us Christians holds on to Christianity because of what we have seen and experienced, hence our conviction, and subsequent acceptance.  I'm pretty sure Shahan and her siblings didn't get converted by just 'hearing' the Gospel, and then ending there.  There must have been something they all saw to make them go away from Islam to turn to Christianity.  Most of you that are against my notion here will not be saying these same things if you were ardent Muslims.  Imagine yourself being a conc. Muslim, and someone comes to preach to you concerning the Gospel, which is totally antithetical to what you've always believed in; and the person expects you to just accept, even if you're not convinced, and even threatens you that if you don't accept, you're doomed to hell.  Can you just imagine such?

Betterstill, are you trying to tell me now that God is being partial by making some people belong to a religion that is the "only way", while making billions of others that he knows will never be convinced, to belong to "false religions"?  And please, don't tell me the other billions of humans out there chose to belong to "false religions" out of their "freewill" because. . .

trini_girl:

That you choose to accept the gift or not is a matter of your free will.

. . . this idea of freewill has been debunked already, as it seems to contradict the omniscient and omnibenevolent nature of God (by Human definition).

@ goodguy,
You keep building upon your foundation of fallacies. I have just one question for you, did God force you to accept whichever religion you belong to now? Was it not of your own freewill?

Did he force you to eat the food you ate this morning? Did he force you to sleep at the time you chose to sleep? Did he force you to come on the internet at the time you chose to?

Stop using Human definition to define who God is. God has freely given us Salvation, the decision is now yours (freewill) to accept it or throw it away. But remember we all will give account on the day of Judgment.

goodguy,

one thing I've learned about people who are wrong is that when you show them their error it shakes the very foundation of their belief system and they become confused.

they also become defensive and will utter alll sorts of rubbish to defend their position. 

coming from an orthodox background i understand your spiritual blindness and it is pointless to expect you to entertain anyone else's truthful opinion even when you are given scripture to back it up.  You rather hold on to your own pie in the sky notion that people who are given the opportunity to receive chirst, over and over again, even though they are not "convinced" will somehow have a chance after that to sit down and"reason" with God at the judgment. LOL!!

Even writing it sounds funny! lol

Things are so simple when it comes to salvation yet we always try to complicate it.  *sigh*

Explain what we christians like to call "conviction"? I'm guessing you mean "Godly sorrow"

Tell me, if I kick a man in gut for calling my mother a prostitute, but the man had no legs and was in a wheelchair, when my anger goes away, is it Godly sorrow, or simply remorse for the horrible things I've done.

In like manner, if a man hears the gospel, and reasons with himself that he has done wrong and is a sinner, even his own human nature will bring him remorse IF he is willing to ACCEPT the truth laid out to him.

This is my own opinion, but I believe that "conviction" or "godly sorrow" that leads to repentance comes from a christian who walks with God, and if/when we sin or fall short, the spirit who we have surrendered our lives to, comes in and CORRECTS us, REPROVES us and CHASTISES to make us better christians.  Like a father chastising his children.

When we share the gospel, we should always prepare in prayer asking God to open the hearts and ears of those we share it with.  Rebuke a couple demons if you have to, and go in faith.  Sometimes people who hear the gospel and know that it's true and STILL put off receiving Jesus for a later time in their life.

Others are blinded by all type of spiritual influences.  It's a fact that not all will enter into the kingdom. 
And it's also quite possible for the spirit to lay such heaviness on a man's heart that they will in no doubt call him Lord.

But even if he does all that, and he is still rejected on earth, what in the world makes you think that after denying him all this time and only because you are convinced after death that he is real and now your judge, that he will listen to "reason".  What will you say "Lord, well I wasn't convinced you were real then, but I'm convinced now! So can I enter heaven"?? lol!!

I call that a get out of hell free card for everyone on earth, like david said.

goodguy:

I believe this applies to the atheists alone. Even then, I don't believe God will condemn the good ones among them to hell. They may not enter heaven, I don't think they'll rot in hell either.

I frankly believe you are genuinely confused and do not understand the God you purport to worship/serve. Who are the atheists you mention here? Those who are not "convinced" of the existence of God but in your own "reasoning" will still make heaven because they can go on the judgement day to argue their case before God?

goodguy:

All in all, John tells us what was revealed to him in Rev 20:12 - ". . . and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works."

I hope you are not trying to insinuate here that those "books" mentioned in revelations include the quran, book of the mormons and other lies of the enemy. If the books refered to by John here is the bible then your argument has no basis if indeed it can be called an argument.

Your shallow and tenous attempt to use human reasoning to understand spiritual things is really alarming. Are these the kind of "christians" in our midst now? No wonder Christ said at His appearing will he find faith on the earth?

goodguy:

. . . this idea of freewill has been debunked already, as it seems to contradict the omniscient and omnibenevolent nature of God (by Human definition).

Too bad I wasn't a part of that thread. Missed that one.  

*sigh*

God created man with a mind/soul, capable of making it's own decisions, inventing, growing, changing.  
He wanted man to be someone he can talk to, spend time with, have fun with and love.  

If not for this freedom of choice, how could Adam have chosen to disobey God in the first place?

So for the life of me I don't understand how all of a sudden freewill is a contradction to the omniscience of God.

I have said this before.  God is ALL knowing and ALL powerful.

He knows what will happen if you choose this way, and he knows what will happen if you choose another.
He knows what will happen if disobey Him guidance, and he knows what will happen if you do.
He knows what will happen if you take the shortcut to the grocery, and he knows what will happen if you take a taxi.


Three things remain constant:-

1.  The freedom of choice
2.  The consequence of that choice
3.  The all knowingness of God on whichever choice you make

I dare call it the conditional knowledge of God.  
He knows the outcome of every choice you make.  But he does not CONTROL your decisions.  YOU make those decisions.

"CHOOSE YOU THIS DAY WHO YOU WILL SERVE"

So I find it hard to believe and worrying that a so called christan would call "defunct" the truth of freewill and even worse, deny the omniscience of the God they are supposed to be serving.  

No wonder you think God thinks like man and issues get out of hell free cards from his judgment seat.  
Hm, maybe I can convince him to drag Saddam and Hitler out and preach to them and see if they'll finally be CONVINCED of the gospel!

And it is appointed unto men once to die, then to judgement.

The purpose of accepting being born again of the spirit is to become HOLY and ACCEPTABLE to God, so that we can enter into his HOLY kingdom.  That which is unclean CANNOT enter into the kingdom of heaven.  If we die unclean, God cannot "cleanse" us" to enter heaven.  If it were so he would not have sent Jesus to die, so that we would not die the second death.

davidylan:


Your shallow and tenous attempt to use human reasoning to understand spiritual things is really alarming.

I agree. But remember that goodguy is just a spawn of the Orthodox dead letter church, and yes, he is very very confused.

Wow! So much Ad Hominems in hurr.

mrpataki:

I have just one question for you, did God force you to accept whichever religion you belong to now? Was it not of your own freewill?

Did he force you to eat the food you ate this morning? Did he force you to sleep at the time you chose to sleep? Did he force you to come on the internet at the time you chose to?

I thought you said you had just one question for me. Anyway, this issue of freewill has been debated already and there's no point restating my stance here. Notwithstanding, I will try to answer your questions in a nutshell.

God did not force me to do any of those things you listed, but He knew I would do them afterall. If He didn't want me to do any of those, he would have simply prevented me because He is omnipotent. But because He wanted me to do so, that was why they happened. Everything you do in life, good or bad, God already knows beforehand, and no matter how hard you try to avert them, you will still end up doing that which is expected. From this, this doesn't seem to me that we have a freewill. If God wants it to happen, it will happen. If he doesn't want it to happen, it won't happen - Freewill or no freewill.

mrpataki:

Stop using Human definition to define who God is.

Every definition applied to God by huumans is human-based. If you tell me God is loving, kind, merciful, etc, those are as well human attributes. So asking me not to apply Human definitions to God will simply require the same of you too.

mrpataki:

God has freely given us Salvation, the decision is now yours (freewill) to accept it or throw it away.

But what happens to those that are not aware? Does it still remain their decision to accept or reject that which they aren't even aware of in the first place?

mrpataki:

But remember we all will give account on the day of Judgment.

Exactly.

trini_girl:

goodguy,

one thing I've learned about people who are wrong is that when you show them their error it shakes the very foundation of their belief system and they become confused.

This is rather interesting, because I have also learnt the same too.

trini_girl:

they also become defensive and will utter alll sorts of rubbish to defend their position.

This doesn't happen all the time actually. But I really do find it funny that YOU of all people are the one making this statement, especially when you are an epitome of guilt on this basis. Remember that thread you created?

trini_girl:

coming from an orthodox background i understand your spiritual blindness and it is pointless to expect you to entertain anyone else's truthful opinion even when you are given scripture to back it up. You rather hold on to your own pie in the sky notion that people who are given the opportunity to receive chirst, over and over again, even though they are not "convinced" will somehow have a chance after that to sit down and"reason" with God at the judgment. LOL!!

Now I'm seriously wondering if some of you can read at all. By the way, I noticed no one here attempted to answer Groupoint. Incase you missed it, here are the questions he put forward to you guys again: https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-37590.0.html#msg886286

Maybe when you answer these, I may begin to reason with you. I hate it when people just draw baseless conclusions from my post and trying to make fun of them without even trying to understand my point.

trini_girl:

Explain what we christians like to call "conviction"? I'm guessing you mean "Godly sorrow"

Stop guessing. This is exactly your problem and that's why you've been misundserstanding me. My use of "Conviction" there was to depict "the state of being convinced". This should answer and put to end, the rest of your rambling, I believe.

trini_girl:

But even if he does all that, and he is still rejected on earth, what in the world makes you think that after denying him all this time and only because you are convinced after death that he is real and now your judge, that he will listen to "reason". What will you say "Lord, well I wasn't convinced you were real then, but I'm convinced now! So can I enter heaven"?? lol!!

One doesn't need to say anything to God. Why do you people picture the Judgement day as some kind of trial in United States Supreme court of law? God knows the state of heart of everyone and I believe he will judge us with that. I've not been typing Hausa here, madam!

As for your sermon on freewill, it will be nice if you transfer that to the right thread. We'll then take it from there.

davidylan:

I frankly believe you are genuinely confused and do not understand the God you purport to worship/serve. Who are the atheists you mention here? Those who are not "convinced" of the existence of God but in your own "reasoning" will still make heaven because they can go on the judgement day to argue their case before God?

I frankly believe you are genuinely blind and do not understand simple statements made by a fellow human.  Where have I said here that those that are not convinced will make heaven?  Even in the same post you quoted, I never even uttered it.  My point, since the beginning of this thread, has been that they should not be threatened with the talk of eternal condemnation in hell.  I reapeat -- they may not enter heaven, but I don't believe they will rot in hell either.  God will judge everyone differently and put us all where He feels we belong.

davidylan:

I hope you are not trying to insinuate here that those "books" mentioned in revelations include the quran, book of the mormons and other lies of the enemy. If the books refered to by John here is the bible then your argument has no basis if indeed it can be called an argument.

Join the the emboldened parts of my post to make a complete statement, and you'll see what I was driving at there.  By the way, what makes you think John was talking about the Bible, when the verse clearly pluralizes the object - Book[b]s[/b]; and even referred to the Book of Life as another book that was opened before the judged ones?  You should read the complete verse for better understanding.  I was not insinuating anything.

davidylan:

Your shallow and tenous attempt to use human reasoning to understand spiritual things is really alarming. Are these the kind of "christians" in our midst now? No wonder Christ said at His appearing will he find faith on the earth?

Very typical of "christians" that always want to prove they know better.

quite entertaining.  your ballyhoo responses almost feign wit,  but unfortunately and expectedly show nothing to disprove our statements.   

by the way, I think the contentions you think you raised were addressed, although again, im sure you're intellectuallyand spiritually incapable of seeing it, hence your silly little ad hominem remark.

@ goodguy, each time i read your long ramblings that are short on wisdom but long on human extrapolations i cant but keep shaking my heaad at your tenous attempt to sound like you really know what you are talking about.

goodguy:

God did not force me to do any of those things you listed, but He knew I would do them afterall. If He didn't want me to do any of those, he would have simply prevented me because He is omnipotent. But because He wanted me to do so, that was why they happened. Everything you do in life, good or bad, God already knows beforehand, and no matter how hard you try to avert them, you will still end up doing that which is expected. From this, this doesn't seem to me that we have a freewill. If God wants it to happen, it will happen. If he doesn't want it to happen, it won't happen - Freewill or no freewill.

John 1: 11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not.
12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
Note the tone of verse 12, the decision to accept the message of salvation is a personal choice. As many as recieved Him and not as many as he forced to recieve Him.

goodguy:

Every definition applied to God by huumans is human-based. If you tell me God is loving, kind, merciful, etc, those are as well human attributes. So asking me not to apply Human definitions to God will simply require the same of you too.

Those are NOT attributes of fallen man. Perhaps those may be regarded as human atttributes in the sight of fellow men but here is what God actually thinks of the nature of the unregenerated soul.
Jer 17: 9 The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?

goodguy:

But what happens to those that are not aware? Does it still remain their decision to accept or reject that which they aren't even aware of in the first place?
Exactly.

On the last day, no one can claim to be unaware. Here is why:
Mark 16: 15 And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.
16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

goodguy:

I frankly believe you are genuinely blind and do not understand simple statements made by a fellow human. Where have I said here that those that are not convinced will make heaven? Even in the same post you quoted, I never even uttered it. My point, since the beginning of this thread, has been that they should not be threatened with the talk of eternal condemnation in hell. I reapeat -- they may not enter heaven, but I don't believe they will rot in hell either. God will judge everyone differently and put us all where He feels we belong.

The above highlighted text is why i think you are merely dribbling yourself blindly into a ditch. What do you mean by "threatened with the talk of eternal condemnation in hell"?
Mark 16: 16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.
No one is threatening anyone, sadly it has become greivous to hear the truth as is written in the bible these days.

Ok back to the highlight, if those who are not "convinced" may not enter heaven but will not rot in hell either, where will God put them?

goodguy:

Join the the emboldened parts of my post to make a complete statement, and you'll see what I was driving at there. By the way, what makes you think John was talking about the Bible, when the verse clearly pluralizes the object - Book[b]s[/b]; and even referred to the Book of Life as another book that was opened before the judged ones? You should read the complete verse for better understanding. I was not insinuating anything.

Dont be confused dear about John's words. In the days of John, the bible was not a compilation as we know it today. The books of Moses were separate from the letters of Paul, the writtings of Isaiah, the psalms of david e.t.c. All such "books" where being read by the new testament believers then.

To assume that when John talks about "books" here, he is refering to the bible as ONE BOOK alongside other false religious manuals is not only erroneous but indicative of an individual who is resistant to wisdom and being economical with the truth in other to propagate his false doctrine.

goodguy:

I thought you said you had just one question for me. Anyway, this issue of freewill has been debated already and there's no point restating my stance here. Notwithstanding, I will try to answer your questions in a nutshell.

Sorry to butt in here guys.

Goodguy, true the issue was discussed, but it was never concluded. In post #160 of that thread I queried the fact that an absence of freewill somehow suggested that God was the author of our evil acts. I asked for this to be explaine in the light of universalist doctrine. Nothing ever came back. There were a few more posts and it came to a grinding halt. So I'm happy to meet you back there so as not to derail this thread. Thanks.

Y'all can carry on now!

God bless

goodguy:

By the way, I noticed no one here attempted to answer Groupoint. Incase you missed it, here are the questions he put forward to you guys again: https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-37590.0.html#msg886286

Maybe when you answer these, I may begin to reason with you. I hate it when people just draw baseless conclusions from my post and trying to make fun of them without even trying to understand my point.

maybe when you  quit stomping your feet for a moment and set aside ur temper tantrum about no one understanding you, you'll realise that we have answered Grouppoint's questions.

However, I'm quite sure you're still not ready to "reason".

goodguy:

One doesn't need to say anything to God. Why do you people picture the Judgement day as some kind of trial in United States Supreme court of law? God knows the state of heart of everyone and I believe he will judge us with that. I've not been typing Hausa here, madam!

The only reason I'm clarifying this piece of literary obtusiveness is that I don't want to be misrepresented.

Since you can't seem to detect sarcasm, I never said that judgment day was like a trial, because nothing we say can change God's mind at that point.   However I was mocking the fact that you seriously think people who reject christ after they chose to deny him during their lifetime, will somehow have a chance at eternal life when the Bible is clear as to what the requirements are.  

There is a government in heaven.  There is divine law.  And even though the heart of God will be broken, he will do his duty in the capacity of judge to maintain holiness and order in the kingdom of heaven.

goodguy:

As for your sermon on freewill, it will be nice if you transfer that to the right thread. We'll then take it from there.

Okay I've stopped laughing enough at the fact that you think anything I write can be called a sermon (unless you're being sarcastic  ) to say that I'm almost disappointed that you couldn't objectively see as a so called christian that what I said about freewill was true, or perhaps you do and don't want to admit it. Calling freewill defunct.  Shame!  

1 Corinthians 2:14

The man without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned.

TV01:

Sorry to butt in here guys.

Goodguy, true the issue was discussed, but it was never concluded. In post #160 of that thread I queried the fact that an absence of freewill somehow suggested that God was the author of our evil acts. I asked for this to be explaine in the light of universalist doctrine. Nothing ever came back. There were a few more posts and it came to a grinding halt. So I'm happy to meet you back there so as not to derail this thread. Thanks.

Y'all can carry on now!

God bless

Thanks Ref!

For the first time David, I'm enjoying your words against mine, not minding the tone of your first and last paragraph though.

Now let me address the points you raised.

davidylan:

John 1: 11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not.
12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
Note the tone of verse 12, the decision to accept the message of salvation is a personal choice. As many as recieved Him and not as many as he forced to recieve Him.

In as much as this is very true, it still raises much more complex questions concerning the concept of freewill.  Note that I am not totally ruling out the possibility of humans having a freewill, but certain things supposedly done "out of freewill" seem to contradict the omniscient, omnipotent and omnibenevolent nature of God (by human definition), and since I believe God possesses these three characteristics, I'm left to believe humans do not have a freewill afterall.

By the way, I believe the Bible verse you provided was to address the part of my post you emboldened.  But didn't it occur to you that the part you emboldened was an addendum to the rest of the post?  Because I don't see how the verse you gave connects with that statement as used in that context.

davidylan:

Those are NOT attributes of fallen man. Perhaps those may be regarded as human atttributes in the sight of fellow men but here is what God actually thinks of the nature of the unregenerated soul.
Jer 17: 9 The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?

I don't really understand you here, perhaps you didn't get what I meant.  What I mean by Human definition is that everything we humans use to describe God is out of our own finite comprehension of Him.  I didn't want to risk being misunderstood (though that's what's happening now), that was why I added "by Human definition" to the post mrpataki referred to.   What I simply meant there was, if going by the human definition of God as being omnipotent, omniscient and omnibenevolent, then it seems to contradict the idea of freewill.

davidylan:

On the last day, no one can claim to be unaware. Here is why:
Mark 16: 15 And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.
16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

Again, you seem to have overlooked what led to my response there.  mrpataki said "God has freely given us Salvation", and I replied with what you quoted there. 

davidylan:

Dont be confused dear about John's words. In the days of John, the bible was not a compilation as we know it today. The books of Moses were separate from the letters of Paul, the writtings of Isaiah, the psalms of david e.t.c. All such "books" where being read by the new testament believers then.

To assume that when John talks about "books" here, he is refering to the bible as ONE BOOK alongside other false religious manuals is not only erroneous but indicative of an individual who is resistant to wisdom and being economical with the truth in other to propagate his false doctrine.

I am not confused about anything.  I think you're the confused one here.  You accused me of insinuating that the other books referred to were the Quran and other religious books, when I wasn't even implying such.  Hence, my response that queries you on why you think the Bible was the "books" being referred to, because I don't think the books talked about there are any of what we read here on earth presently.  I wouldn't mind a concrete explanation though, if you think otherwise.

TV01:

In post #160 of that thread I queried the fact that an absence of freewill somehow suggested that God was the author of our evil acts.

I wouldn't say God is the author of our evil acts, but what I know for sure is that He created evil.

@ trini_girl

Responding to your post will mean repeating myself all over again. Nonetheless, I will address the areas that really draw my attention.

trini_girl:

Okay I've stopped laughing enough at the fact that you think anything I write can be called a sermon (unless you're being sarcastic ) to say that I'm almost disappointed that you couldn't objectively see as a so called christian that what I said about freewill was true, or perhaps you do and don't want to admit it. Calling freewill defunct. Shame!

Sorry to disappoint you, but I only read the first few lines of that post. I called it a sermon because it's a long post. I just went through the whole thing now, and I have questions to ask you, but that won't be on this thread. I'm also learning here, and haven't claimed to know any better than anyone here, unlike the rest of you who assume that anyone that doesn't see things your way is blind, deluded and ignorant (using David's words now ), and isn't worth calling a Christian. No, I am not like that. I believe everybody cannot think and see things the same way, even though we believe in the same thing. This doesn't make anyone a "so-called christian" as some of you have been describing me here.

trini_girl:

quite entertaining. your ballyhoo responses almost feign wit, but unfortunately and expectedly show nothing to disprove our statements.

by the way, I think the contentions you think you raised were addressed, although again, im sure you're intellectuallyand spiritually incapable of seeing it, hence your silly little ad hominem remark.

. . . . . . .

1 Corinthians 2:14

The man without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned.

Please get the hell out of my face with your self-righteousness!

You should not even be among the least of the last people that should be telling me this, as this very statement describes exactly your person, as well as the Bible verse that perfectly qualifies your character. Are you not the same person that believes that Premarital sex is not fornication? See you stylishly accusing one of not having the Spirit of God, with the Holy Bible. You are definitely "intellectually" and "spiritually" capable indeed. :roll eyes: Bloody Hypocrite!

goodguy:

I wouldn't say God is the author of our evil acts, but what I know for sure is that He created evil.

i do not discuss "religion" however your post is quite thought provoking.

in what way did the MOST HIGH create evil.  

Coco29:

i do not discuss "religion" however your post is quite thought provoking.

in what way did the MOST HIGH create evil.

I understand how you feel, but it isn't my own assertion either.

Isaiah 45:7 - "I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things."

that was taken from a book, which has been rewritten in so many languages, words have been change and misinterpreted.

so if your quote is true, that means, he, the one you call god can not be perfect.

true ?

Coco29:

that was taken from a book,

That was taken from the Holy Bible!

Coco29:

which has been rewritten in so many languages, words have been change and misinterpreted.

We could also say the same for all the verses Davidylan and trini_girl have been using to respond to me you know?

Okay seriously, I agree that words might have changed and misinterpreted.  Perhaps, you may want to see some examples of such changes in different Bible Versions:

NASB: The One forming light and creating darkness, Causing well-being and creating calamity; I am the LORD who does all these.

GWT: I make light and create darkness. I make blessings and create disasters. I, the LORD, do all these things.

KJV: I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

ASV: I form the light, and create darkness; I make peace, and create evil. I am Jehovah, that doeth all these things.

BBE: I am the giver of light and the maker of the dark; causing blessing, and sending troubles; I am the Lord, who does all these things.

DBY: forming the light and creating darkness, making peace and creating evil: I, Jehovah, do all these things.

JPS: I form the light, and create darkness; I make peace, and create evil; I am the LORD, that doeth all these things.

WBS: I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

WEB: I form the light, and create darkness. I make peace, and create calamity. I am Yahweh, who does all these things.

YLT: Forming light, and preparing darkness, Making peace, and preparing evil, I am Jehovah, doing all these things.'

Satisfied?

Okay, on a more serious note now, the original Hebrew version of that verse is this:

יוצר אור ובורא חשך עשה שלום ובורא רע אני יהוה עשה כל אלה׃

The word "Evil" as used there means ra'a' which could have a wide range of meanings that all depict something bad.  Check here:  http://original.biblebrowser.com/isaiah/45-7.htm and click on the word 'evil' to see the different hebrew translations for it.

Coco29:

so if your quote is true, that means, he, the one you call god can not be perfect.

That He created evil does not make Him evil.  God is perfect!

Coco29:

true ?

False!

goodguy:


Sorry to disappoint you, but I only read the first few lines of that post. I called it a sermon because it's a long post. I just went through the whole thing now, and I have questions to ask you, but that won't be on this thread.

I'm also learning here, and haven't claimed to know any better than anyone here, unlike the rest of you who assume that anyone that doesn't see things your way is blind, deluded and ignorant (using David's words now ), and isn't worth calling a Christian. No, I am not like that. I believe everybody cannot think and see things the same way, even though we believe in the same thing. This doesn't make anyone a "so-called christian" as some of you have been describing me here.

What are you learning? What have you learnt so far? Other than how to insert quotes and think of new ways to respond and compound your foolishness?

I wonder if you realize that every other sentence you make digs you deeper into a hole.

It's not that we want anyone to see things our way, but we are showing you scripture in the Bible you claim to believe in concerning this topic, and you still refuse to open your eyes!

So based on that,  we are no longer assuming, but stating with clear evidence the fact that YOU ARE BLIND. And as much as we try to at least offer the option of further knowledge to consider, YOU CHOOSE TO REMAIN IGNORANT!

So then I don't see David's statement as assumption at all, IT IS A STATEMENT OF FACT BASED ON EVIDENCE.

Grasshopper,

If you claim to believe the same things true christians (not religionists) believe, by default it implies you see things the same way we do.

Since that is not evident, then it's safe to deduce that you  need to open your understanding of christianity if you call yourself christian.  

Because to say you do not believe in free will, and you believe that God may allow those who were not convinced of him on earth can still go to heaven is totally contrary to the nature of God and divine law!

If you want to call yourself christian and go against God, then it's only fair for us to question your "so called " christianity.

goodguy:

Please get the hell out of my face with your self-righteousness!

You should not even be among the least of the last people that should be telling me this, as this very statement describes exactly your person, as well as the Bible verse that perfectly qualifies your character. Are you not the same person that believes that Premarital sex is not fornication? See you stylishly accusing one of not having the Spirit of God, with the Holy Bible. You are definitely "intellectually" and "spiritually" capable indeed. :roll eyes: Bloody Hypocrite!

Temper temper grasshopper.  

This seems to be a serious chip on your virgin shoulder!  

My dear boy, coming out of that thread I have an amended OPINION about the issue.  It has not changed completely but since you have selective memory or probably didn't read it because it was "too long", let me off topic a bit and summarize.

Pre marital sex (sex before marriage) and Post matrimonail sex (sex after marriage) can BOTH be fornication since fornication by definition is ILLICIT SEX (example sex with prostitutes, homosexuality, incest, beastiality, sleeping with your father's wife etc) according to the Strong's exhaustive concordance.  

To this day no one has shown me anything in scriputre that disproves my OPINION that sex between a man and a woman in a committed long term relationship is fornication.

Hypocrite (Pretender) I am not.  If anyone gives me just (scriptural) reason to change this opinion I will certainly do so.

This is where you and I differ.  

We have shown you scripture and tried to explain why your position is wrong, and yet all you do is defend your folly with asinine temper tantrums.

Grow up Goodchild! Spiritually and mentally!

trini_girl:

If you claim to believe the same things true christians (not religionists) believe, by default it implies you see things the same way we do.

Now this is where you implicate yourself.

Let me first of all laugh at the fact that you also count yourself as a Christian!

Okay, I'm done .  Since you believe all true Christians (which you ridiculously believe you're also a part of) must see things the same way, then you're either implying that everybody that did not see things your way on that thread you created, are false Christians, or that you're are truly the deluded Christian.  Which is it?

For heaven's sake, this is common sense!  Even the most ardent Bible-quoting folks among us here still disagree on major issues.  That doesn't make anyone of them less than a Christian!

trini_girl:

To this day no one has shown me anything in scriputre that disproves my OPINION that sex between a man and a woman in a committed long term relationship is fornication.

And may I remind you that to this day, you also have not shown us anything in the scripture that proves your OPINION that blah blah blah blah.  It's even a good thing you describe it as "YOUR OPINION".

trini_girl:

Hypocrite (Pretender) I am not.  If anyone gives me just (scriptural) reason to change this opinion I will certainly do so.

See this girl sounding like she's one reasonable person now.  People have given you more scriptural reasons than you need to change your opinion, but you are soooo BLIND to the truth that you still cling on to YOUR BASELESS OPINION, and not GOD's OPINION.  Even mrpataki will agree with me on this one.

trini_girl:

We have shown you scripture and tried to explain why your position is wrong, and yet all you do is defend your folly with asinine temper tantrums.

Funny how you people that accuse me of being what I'm not, end up being subject to your own very statement.  God is great indeed!

trini_girl:

Grow up Goodchild! Spiritually and mentally!

Good advice for yourself.  Yeah Grow up trini_child!  Spiritually, morally, intellectually, and of course, mentally!

_{*** shakes head in pity ***}

thank you for proving my point about you to all.

^{*** nods head in delight ***}

I love you too.

goodguy:

Now this is where you implicate yourself.

Let me first of all laugh at the fact that you also count yourself as a Christian!

Okay, I'm done .  Since you believe all true Christians (which you ridiculously believe you're also a part of) must see things the same way, then you're either implying that everybody that did not see things your way on that thread you created, are false Christians, or that you're are truly the deluded Christian.  Which is it?

For heaven's sake, this is common sense! Even the most ardent Bible-quoting folks among us here still disagree on major issues. That doesn't make anyone of them less than a Christian!

Which is which now goodguy? Your two inputs here run contrary to each other.

And who made you a Judge sef?
You have loads of deluded thought patterns!

                              Sometimes I take you for babs787!

mrpataki!!!!!!
you and trini_girl sef you have time to be exchanging words with a deluded individual who errorneously assumes he is christian simply because he goes somewhere on sunday and owns a bible he does not read neither does he understand. 

Do not cast your pearls before swine. Let every man go before God on the judgement day and give his excuse.

hi u r rite