1. In the JVM, you have the choice of using Groovy, JRuby, Scala, Jython with the accompanying advantages of using these powerful multi-paradigm languages.
E.g Groovy includes closures, operator overloading. Groovy has the Grails RAD web framework; For good reasons Twitter uses Scala extensively.

2. Compiled Java bytecode runs at native speed just like the CLI.

3. Calling native code in Java-languages is not much different to calling native code in dotNet

4. All dotNET languages are definitely not richer than all Java languages.

5. Using SWT (with Eclipse et al), you can easily build "native" Windows GUI applications.

6. The amount of applications, frameworks written in Java and the size of the Java community is unbelievably large and not to be overlooked. However Java had a lot of fallout in the Linux community because it wasn't open source for a amazingly (IMHO) long time.

7. In most schools Java is taught as an introductory programming language. But why?

P.S: 'A Is NOT better than B' is not equivalent to 'B Is better than A' just as 'Is NOT white' is not equivalent to 'Is black'

eh yah !

@Ishikawa

No point arguing with you. You quite obviously don't have a clue about .NET.

I wonder why the World does not seem to be seeing your reasons? C# set to take Java's crown as Java drops 50 percent, click the link; Java has lost 50% of its users to mainly C# in the past 7 years.

Beaf:

C# set to take Java's crown as Java drops 50 percent, click the link; Java has lost 50% of its users to mainly C# in the past 7 years.

That was a very silly stat. I for one have only ever used ONE Java book, and that was when I started coding Java in 1998. I have always downloaded free books or read articles online since then. I expect quite a number of Java developers do the same.

This goes to the JAVA man , all your facts are simply baseless fact, I'm so sure you were not well informed b4 you came up with this topic
I'm a DOTNET guru, The MSIL run far faster than the JAVA bytecode, i'm so sure you were not well informed , i moved from JAVA to DOTNET and i will also advice you to do the same because your productivity will highly improve,

Another argument.

@Beaf

Beaf:

@Ishikawa

No point arguing with you. You quite obviously don't have a clue about .NET.

I wonder why the World does not seem to be seeing your reasons? C# set to take Java's crown as Java drops 50 percent, click the link; Java has lost 50% of its users to mainly C# in the past 7 years.

Firstly, I actually know more C# than I know Java. Secondly, what the data simply states is that there has been an increase in SALES of C#, Ruby, php etc. books. Those sales could mean several things. Ironically, Java books still top the sales. Read the comments on the page you referred to. As the page says, dynamic languages are the trend. This is a point I emphasized.

logica:

That was a very silly stat. I for one have only ever used ONE Java book, and that was when I started coding Java in 1998. I have always downloaded free books or read articles online since then. I expect quite a number of Java developers do the same.

I too have only ever bought a single Java book, but I have bought tonnes of C# ones. C# growth in the real World has been nothing short of phenomenal. The reason why? It just opens doors to so many delicious goodies (other offerings look plebian in comparison).

Ishikawa:

@Beaf
Firstly, I actually know more C# than I know Java. Secondly, what the data simply states is that there has been an increase in SALES of C#, Ruby, php etc. books. Those sales could mean several things. Ironically, Java books still top the sales. Read the comments on the page you referred to. As the page says, dynamic languages are the trend. This is a point I emphasized.

Something tells me you will seriously deslike this graph;

Source; http://www.indeed.com/jobtrends?q=java%2Cc%23%2Cc%2B%2B&relative=1&relative=1

Beaf:

Something tells me you will seriously deslike this graph;

Source; http://www.indeed.com/jobtrends?q=java%2Cc%23%2Cc%2B%2B&relative=1&relative=1

On the contrary I like that information. It further buttresses my point. Also from that site, see this:

^
You scared to post the URL so we can know what that graph is about?

@logica and beaf

What is the name of the 'single java book' that you read? Would like to get my hand on it.

@Ishikawa

2. Compiled Java bytecode runs at native speed just like the CLI.

I dont think that is the truth. While it would be true that over the years the jvm has been improved upon, the idea of java bytecodes running at native speed is certanly not the truth. It would be possible to attain native speed in certain instances. Certain bytecodes can be optimized bt not all, so the need to inject native codes in areas where performance is not optimal.  Remember there is always still the overhead of compiling bytecodes to native codes

Ishikawa:

P.S: 'A Is NOT better than B' is not equivalent to 'B Is better than A' just as 'Is NOT white' is not equivalent to 'Is black'

@Ishikawa,

I bet only 1% of Nairalanders understand that statement.

@poster

Gone are the days when programmers bother themeslves about which language is better. Bother yourself about meeting the needs of your clients. I am a java programmer to the core but if i ever need to use .NET anywhere, i wont hesitate. Java is strong, as in strong enough to last me a life time without looking elsewhere. . .but if i ever ever need to use .net or any other language, i wont hesitate. thats how professionals think. dont get emotional over what is not.

Technologies die, new ones are born, old prejudices pass away, THE CONSUMERS DONT GIV A F CUK ABOUT ALL THAT!!!

javalove:

@poster

Gone are the days when programmers bother themeslves about which language is better. Bother yourself about meeting the needs of your clients. I am a java programmer to the core but if i ever need to use .NET anywhere, i wont hesitate. Java is strong, as in strong enough to last me a life time without looking elsewhere. . .but if i ever ever need to use .net or any other language, i wont hesitate. thats how professionals think. dont get emotional over what is not.

Technologies die, new ones are born, old prejudices pass away, THE CONSUMERS DONT GIV A F CUK ABOUT ALL THAT!!!

WORD!! and i regret not moving with the times at the right time, now i have to struggle to master what kids already know

@Ishikawa, I believe this post is a reply to my post "10 Reasons Why .NET is BETTER than Java".
First of all, I gave 10 reasons and you gave only 7 which means you are still down by 3. But let us deal with the 7 you have and see weather they can still stand.

Ishikawa:

1. In the JVM, you have the choice of using Groovy, JRuby, Scala, Jython with the accompanying advantages of using these powerful multi-paradigm languages.
E.g Groovy includes closures, operator overloading. Groovy has the Grails RAD web framework; For good reasons Twitter uses Scala extensively.

All these came as an after-thought and as a result of the .NET challenge. You see the JVM was originally designed for one languae "JAVA" and all the support for the other languages came from 3rd parties. You cited Jython here, but the creator of Jython created it's .NET version called IronPython and found it to be much faster than Jython.

Ishikawa:

2. Compiled Java bytecode runs at native speed just like the CLI.

Short answer: they don't.
Long answer: do a test for .NET and Java compiled at Native speed and compare the results and give yourself an honest answer. You don't have to post the results here.

Ishikawa:

3. Calling native code in Java-languages is not much different to calling native code in dotNet

Very much different. Java's method is very dirty. You have generate some files that only sun microsystems understands  . In .NET you only need to know the signature of the functions you are calling. No need to generate any file or use any tool apart from your compiler.

Ishikawa:

4. All dotNET languages are definitely not richer than all Java languages.

Almost all Java languages have .NET equivalents. The difference is that the .NET versions are faster.

Ishikawa:

5. Using SWT (with Eclipse et al), you can easily build "native" Windows GUI applications.

SWT is as heavy and slow as swing. That's why it didn't get much following.

Ishikawa:

6. The amount of applications, frameworks written in Java and the size of the Java community is unbelievably large and not to be overlooked. However Java had a lot of fallout in the Linux community because it wasn't open source for a amazingly (IMHO) long time.

You will believe it's very large when you never walked out of that community to see the larger world. Unlike java .NET is used to develop some very important components of the linux desktop for some time now.

Ishikawa:

7. In most schools Java is taught as an introductory programming language. But why?

In most schools QBasic is taught as an introductory programming language. Why?

Ishikawa:

P.S: 'A Is NOT better than B' is not equivalent to 'B Is better than A' just as 'Is NOT white' is not equivalent to 'Is black'

Is that also an argument in support of Java?

There is no best programming language. However, there are best developers. Thanks!

cygital:

There is no best programming language. However, there are best developers. Thanks!

Yeah right, but there are technologies and languages that bring the best out of developers and Java is not one of them.

javalove:

@poster

Gone are the days when programmers bother themeslves about which language is better. Bother yourself about meeting the needs of your clients. I am a java programmer to the core but if i ever need to use .NET anywhere, i wont hesitate. Java is strong, as in strong enough to last me a life time without looking elsewhere. . .but if i ever ever need to use .net or any other language, i wont hesitate. thats how professionals think. dont get emotional over what is not.

Technologies die, new ones are born, old prejudices pass away, THE CONSUMERS DONT GIV A F CUK ABOUT ALL THAT!!!

Very correct pally.

Beaf:

^
You scared to post the URL so we can know what that graph is about?

@Beaf
My Bad! Well that’s your url (from the same website you sited) : http://www.indeed.com/jobtrends?q=c%23%2Cjython%2Cscala&l=&relative=1

IG:

@Ishikawa, I believe this post is a reply to my post "10 Reasons Why .NET is BETTER than Java".
First of all, I gave 10 reasons and you gave only 7 which means you are still down by 3. But let us deal with the 7 you have and see weather they can still stand.
All these came as an after-thought and as a result of the .NET challenge. You see the JVM was originally designed for one languae "JAVA" and all the support for the other languages came from 3rd parties. You cited Jython here, but the creator of Jython created it's .NET version called IronPython and found it to be much faster than Jython.
Short answer: they don't.
Long answer: do a test for .NET and Java compiled at Native speed and compare the results and give yourself an honest answer. You don't have to post the results here.
Very much different. Java's method is very dirty. You have generate some files that only sun microsystems understands  . In .NET you only need to know the signature of the functions you are calling. No need to generate any file or use any tool apart from your compiler.

Almost all Java languages have .NET equivalents. The difference is that the .NET versions are faster.
SWT is as heavy and slow as swing. That's why it didn't get much following.
You will believe it's very large when you never walked out of that community to see the larger world. Unlike java .NET is used to develop some very important components of the linux desktop for some time now.
In most schools QBasic is taught as an introductory programming language. Why?
Is that also an argument in support of Java?

@ IG

1-3. and any other:
           Speed: The last time I checked JVM is mostly faster than Mono. Once the JVM is running, .NET applications run at virtually the same        speed as JVM applications. http://shootout.alioth.debian.org/u32/benchmark.php?test=all&lang=csharp
4.        What’s the .net alternative for Groovy (a superset of java like C++ is a superset of C). Any superset of the .net languages you can hint me of.
5. SWT is as light and as fast as WinForms. It’s usage statistics is another question.
6. Please recheck your statistics.
7. Error! Or do you you mean Nigerian Primary and Secondary Schools.

You really need to understand my “P.S” in the first post then you’ll understand that it doesn’t matter whether I have 7 or 10 reasons.
Conclusion: Learn “dynamic languages.”

IG:

Very much different. Java's method is very dirty. You have generate some files that only sun microsystems understands  . In .NET you only need to know the signature of the functions you are calling. No need to generate any file or use any tool apart from your compiler.

Huh? Can you explain more about this?

When developers say some technologies aint better than others, it makes you wonder.
.NET is better than Java; both .NET and Java are better than classical ASP and PHP; both classical ASP and PHP are better than pearl etc.

If anyone thinks different, they simply don't know the first thing about software engineering or system architecture.

What are the Java equivalents to these now common place components of the broad .NET family (nothing primitive like swing or anonymous classes please);
[list]
[li]WPF[/li]
[li]Silverlight[/li]
[li]Anonymous delegates[/li]
[/list]

Beaf:

What are the Java equivalents to these now common place components of the broad .NET family (nothing primitive like swing or anonymous classes please);
[list]
[li]WPF[/li]
[li]Silverlight[/li]
[li]Anonymous delegates[/li]
[/list]

Which of these provide an edge in developing Business Applications?

And why won't any Java developer who knows his left from his right know what you refer to as anonymous delegates are the same as what we call Anonymous Inner Classes in Java?

I am lag behind in the world of programming. Beaf and other nairalanders I want to know .NET or JAVA. In what way can you help me?

well,from my knowledge in d I.T world, every language has its pros and cons. For example, pl/sql is more efficient than java in oracle, microsoft-based applications are better off with vb.net, php comes in more handy when building web-based applications than java.
on the other hand, it should be noted that java is very much versatile when building most applications (with the exception of microsoft) and other technolgies like SAP etc. So its better to use the right language 4d right job.
eg pl/sql for creating stored procedures,triggers and functions and java for the security end of an oracle database ; which is about the best approach to the issue at hand.
interesting debate

oluagness:

I am lag behind in the world of programming. Beaf and other nairalanders I want to know .NET or JAVA. In what way can you help me?

I will advise you to avoid VB.NET and learn C# instead. C# is the defacto .NET language, every important framework (e.g. Mono) is written in C#.
The greatest advantage of learning C# though is that it makes it a piece of cake to learn C++, C, D and Java. C# is based on C++.
Compared to all the languages mentioned above, C# has the shortest learning curve.

You can download a free C# programming software / compiler (called Integrated Developer Environment) here http://www.microsoft.com/express/vcsharp/
If you are more interested in the web then get Visual Web Developer (free) here http://www.microsoft.com/express/vwd/Default.aspx

Give the samples a play and get back if you have any issue's.

logica:

Which of these provide an edge in developing Business Applications?

And why won't any Java developer who knows his left from his right know what you refer to as anonymous delegates are the same as what we call Anonymous Inner Classes in Java?

WPF offers tremendous productivity enhancements to GUI development and it does it to levels previously unheard off. Java has no counterpart.

As for Anonymous Inner Classes, I really love to refer to this list all the time for C#'s advantages;
    * Much more concise syntax in C# with lambda expressions and anonymous methods
    * Type inference
    * General support for delegates in the language (method group conversions etc)
    * Multi-cast delegates with language support
    * Events (simple syntax for the observer pattern based on delegates)
    * Asynchronous execution via the system thread-pool
    * Expression trees with language support
Source: http://stackoverflow.com/questions/1246534/real-advantages-of-net-delegates-over-javas-anon-classes

Beaf:

WPF offers tremendous productivity enhancements to GUI development and it does it to levels previously unheard off. Java has no counterpart.

I asked how much advantage this offers to Business/Enterprise development (which you should know has little to do with GUI).

Beaf:

As for Anonymous Inner Classes, I really love to refer to this list all the time for C#'s advantages;
    * Much more concise syntax in C# with lambda expressions and anonymous methods
    * Type inference
    * General support for delegates in the language (method group conversions etc)
    * Multi-cast delegates with language support
    * Events (simple syntax for the observer pattern based on delegates)
    * Asynchronous execution via the system thread-pool
    * Expression trees with language support
Source: http://stackoverflow.com/questions/1246534/real-advantages-of-net-delegates-over-javas-anon-classes

A whole bunch of mumbo-jumbo which doesn't point to the exact difference between Anonymous Delegates in C# and Anonymous Inner Classes in Java. For instance events + observer/observable pattern is entrenched in Java.

logica:

Huh? Can you explain more about this?

@logica, when calling native code with java you have create some .c or .cpp files. You have to code C or C++ to call native code already written probably in C or C++.
In .NET you use PInvoke to call the native code diectly in your .NET program.

Ishikawa:

1-3. and any other:
           Speed: The last time I checked JVM is mostly faster than Mono. Once the JVM is running, .NET applications run at virtually the same        speed as JVM applications. http://shootout.alioth.debian.org/u32/benchmark.php?test=all&lang=csharp

First of all, the JVM takes time to load. You said it yourself, it's only faster once the JVM is running. Secondly to get that speed in Java you have to enable something called server-mode and even sun said it starts slower. Correct me if I'm wrong.

Ishikawa:

4.  What’s the .net alternative for Groovy (a superset of java like C++ is a superset of C). Any superset of the .net languages you can hint me of.

Groovy is an agile dynamic language for the java virtual machine. Boo is an agile dynamic language for .NET. I've not used groovy but the advantages it offers are also available in Boo.

Ishikawa:

5. SWT is as light and as fast as WinForms. It’s usage statistics is another question.

So you agreed that WinForms is light and fast and the same time the default .NET gui toolkit. SWT has to be built as a result of the failure of the default Java gui toolkit, swing. And I do not quite agree that it's as fast as winforms.
Apart from SWT and swing what other gui toolkit can I get for Java?

Ishikawa:

6. Please recheck your statistics.

Alright I agree, java community is big. But it's a community that make little improvement to the core java technology unlike cases of .NET like mono in which the technology is being implemented by the community.

Ishikawa:

7. Error! Or do you you mean Nigerian Primary and Secondary Schools.

The choice of languages being taught in schools are made by academicians for academic purposes. They do not have to be the best languages to use in the real world.

Ishikawa:

You really need to understand my “P.S” in the first post then you’ll understand that it doesn’t matter whether I have 7 or 10 reasons.

That's the problem with coding only in Java, even your daily English language ends up becoming cryptic like the Java language

Ishikawa:

Conclusion: Learn “dynamic languages.”

I know some dynamic languages like PHP and Python but I also know Java, C# and VB.NET so I believe I am in a good position to know the advantages and disadvantages of the different languages.
Conclusion: Try other languages.

IG:

@logica, when calling native code with java you have create some .c or .cpp files. You have to code C or C++ to call native code already written probably in C or C++.
In .NET you use PInvoke to call the native code diectly in your .NET program.

OK, you write a C/C++ "connector" code that's probably no more than 3 lines. How does that make it such a bad thing? Besides, the only practical use of JNI is to provide access to "legacy code" which most enterprises will best invest in replacing anyway.

According to Sun Microsystems, the server mode JVM is not suited for gui apps. That means the speed advantage (despite the slow startup) is only available for server based applications. This means that the benchmark posted by ishikawa doesn't apply in most cases.
Besides that to get the server mode performance you have to compile with a compiler for the server JVM.
Honestly I am really trying hard to find very good reasons to stick to Java but Sun is not helping matters. Why complicate things with two runtimes and two compilers. Why cant we have a single compiler and runtime that has a server mode option.