TV01:

1. That is rendering unto Ceasar. Planning, zoning, noise restictions. It is also not causing offence and being at peace with all.

I agree, so is ensuring that tax revenue to which all citizens contribute continues to be used in the most judicious way possible - that involves not causing offence.

2. It was precisely because the Catholic Church' interplay with the state and political inclinations that that happened.

Well maybe, but this 'sovereignty' you are proposing might lead to the same type of mistakes - the church cannot be a law unto itself when it comes to things like finances - the opportunity for abuse is immense. See Nigeria for numerous examples.

The church should not be subject to, yoked with or seek the power of.

A gathering of individuals cannot but be under the state in some shape or form - churches are permitted by the state, while other groupings are not, so I don't know if you can avoid being subject to the state in that regard.

One last point. The church/state interplay is a resonating scrpitural theme. And the state has always persecuted the true church.

Not quite - for a while that was true, but the church was effectively promoted when it became the official Roman belief system. There should be clear demarcations and the use of tax returns or any other income (originating from the individual in the end) MUST be managed properly to avoid undue scrutiny from the state, whether friendly or malevolent.

JeSoul:

Praise the Lord!  
Lol at the SOS reference . . . glad it is still resonating  

Hi Jesoul, it not only resonates, it quite relevant here.

JeSoul:

Thank you for the above breakdown. I've heard about the UK charities commission but never this clearly and based on that I think I would agree whole heartedly that this is not the ideal situation for the church of Christ to be in. I bolded some parts of your post, and the most disturbing in bold red . . . really? they have/can influence sermon content? really?

Absolutely. The secular government agenda is foisted on the church. Even if only in part. So here, the gay/feminists lobbies are quite powerful and their priorities are high up the state agenda. Hence you'll rarely hear anything those lobbies consider off-message in charitable church sermons. The church is then not just yoked, but used to further the state agenda. The leverage is the states silver and the church wilfully subjecting itself to the states laws to obtain that silver.

tbc.

JeSoul:

While this body serves to keep religious bodies/charities accountable - and that is a good thing, but from a spiritual perspective - from a Holy Spirit perspective, I agree with you it amounts to being unequally yoked. But realistically, how many churches would rather be free and independent and not seek extra finances by getting taxes back?

Accountable? For ensuring the faith is contended for? The true gospel is preached? Christians live God gloryfying lives? The state cares less about that. Will the state intervene if a Church leader fornicates his way through the choir? Or preaches or practices anything contrary to the scripture. The states aim is not accountability, its control, or submission. Other than the silver, whats in view here to benefit the church? But the prid pro quo is too great and spiritually dangerous.

The Church in its natural spirit-led state is a threat to the state. I spoke about themes earlier - or maybe it was another thread !

When Herod took his brothers wife? Why was it JTB that spoke out? Why not the Pharisees? Because he was Gods - a type of the true unyoked church - the Pharisees were compromised. Afforded their position by the state to keep the people in check and reek platitudes. So as a church they were ineffectual, neutered, dead. As a charitable religious organisation the state loved them. And I'm sure some silver changed hands. What happened to JTB ? The state persecuted and killed him.

tbc.

JeSoul:

Here there are certain things churches are not allowed to do in order to retain their "tax exempt" status - ranges from politics to social issues. Should a church rather pay taxes and function however they please or work within the limitations imposed on it by the govt? Is it wrong for a church to want to function in a manner that is harmonious with the state?

Close to my position, but I would that churches do not seek any kind of legal incorporation and believers make any church - as opposed to charitable - giving out of after tax income.

The church will of course in some respects be "subject" to general laws. We mentioned zoning, planning etc. But not yoked by specific ones aimed at neutering them.

Do any of the Nigerian MOGS have a record of railing against the abuses Nigerias politicians subject its citizens to? Or are they somehow yoked, acquiescent and really part of the problem? The scriptural narrative is clear. The theme's unmistakable.

tbc

JeSoul:

ps. I owe you some pix, lemme think up an expedient solution.

I'm patient, I'm sure you're creative. But don't make me have to pop down during my visit to Toronto later this year .

God bless
TV

We disagree fundamentally here - it is MY money which I have given to the state to be my custodian. My getting back some of that money is by no means obligating me to the state. Any obligations put on the church or charity body by the state are at MY behest - ostensibly to prevent abuse of MY money, which the state is the custodian of on my behalf.

I appreciate that. And may I also say your position is well thought out and articulated. For an individual charitable giving and tax reclaims in no way change the individual/state dynamic, for a church it does.

I disagree - you might as well argue that the church should keep all of it's money in cash since opening an account in a bank means it is under financial regulation and money laundering laws. There is no yoke to the state - the state is a custodian of the taxpayer and simply acts, as decided by the taxpayer, to ensure judicious use of the funds.

And that is a good thing. The money is subject, not how the church utilises it, or more importantly preaches. The church is subject to some and some are actually beneficial, but not where the church is yoked and compromised.

Even with the 'consensus of the congregation', you cannot act in contravention of the law. As I mentioned, I am yet to come across case where the state has prevented a church from doing something led by the Spirit because of the charitable giving laws.

Again you are right and I am not saying that the church should. I have cited how churches are compromised in their preaching due to charity commission and ultimately government policy.

If they church could not be subject due to being unequally yoked, the government would have to persecute them in order to compromise their message. That would be game on!

I agree, so is ensuring that tax revenue to which all citizens contribute continues to be used in the most judicious way possible - that involves not causing offence.

Not at the expense of - potential and legal - state intervention.

Well maybe, but this 'sovereignty' you are proposing might lead to the same type of mistakes - the church cannot be a law unto itself when it comes to things like finances - the opportunity for abuse is immense. See Nigeria for numerous examples.

The church is not a law unto itself. Its His church. He leads it. I outlined the type of the "true church", "religious church" and the state typified by JTB, the Pharisees and Herod. The numerous examples in Nigeria are not the "true" type. Do they unabashedly rail against the abuse of state? No. And they can't, because thay are corrupt and compromised. John 10 says "they were concerned about losing their place" The status wealth, privilege and influence. God ke. He has nothing to do - for the most part - with what obtains in Nigeria.

Now to the true church. Is anyone sold out to and utterly faithful to God - to the point of death - due to state intervention? If state intervention - even without a yoke - sorted out church finances, would it speak to holiness, purity, faithfulness, zeal, salvation or anything that is at the heart of true church? No. Incorporation, tax credits and silver in any guise is about compromise, subjection and control. A strong unaligned church is too much of a threat to the state .

tbc.

A gathering of individuals cannot but be under the state in some shape or form - churches are permitted by the state, while other groupings are not, so I don't know if you can avoid being subject to the state in that regard.

I diasgree. And that is anathema to the whole nature of church. Church is not somewhere we go, it is what we are by virtue of our faith. That does not make us subject to anyone or anything other than Him. When it loses its essence and morphs into a religious organisation or a legally incorporated company or a charity, then, oh dear, then.

Not quite - for a while that was true, but the church was effectively promoted when it became the official Roman belief system. There should be clear demarcations and the use of tax returns or any other income (originating from the individual in the end) MUST be managed properly to avoid undue scrutiny from the state, whether friendly or malevolent.

Type II outlined earlier. A state sponsored, neutered church. Not His.

When the believers "had all things in common", what would have been, should have been the states role? In the instance of Ananias and Sapphira, how should the state have intervened to a) judge what they did and b) judge the Holy Spirits sanction?

Debosky its been good discussing this and I don't want to adopt the "spiritualisation" ploy loved by many, but there are real spiritual overtones here. But they also translate practically.

Thanks again.

God bless
TV

TV and Debosky, very good convo guys. I've picked up a thing or two.

These quotes TV I found most worthy of being highlighted:

TV01:

The states aim is not accountability, its control, or submission. Other than the silver, whats in view here to benefit the church? But the prid pro quo is too great and spiritually dangerous.

The Church in its natural spirit-led state is a threat to the state. I spoke about themes earlier - or maybe it was another thread !

---

The church/state interplay is a resonating scrpitural theme. And the state has always persecuted the true church

I guess when it comes down to the nitty gritty state involvement really isn't about just accountability or oversight, we christians know who really runs the state and not to acknowledge that their ultimate aim is to prevail against the church would be being spiritually shortsighted. You're right TV.

Debosky, you make very very good points. I am however afraid you haven't truly attacked it from the spiritual angle as TV hinted in his last post.

TV, I think a thread for you is a-coming somewhere in the Travel section, I will keep ya posted

JeSoul:

TV, I think a thread for you is a-coming somewhere in the Travel section, I will keep ya posted

Travel section ke? Nairaland has one ! I need to get out the Religion board more. Geek me, lol! Please lemme know.

JeSoul:

TV and Debosky, very good convo guys. I've picked up a thing or two.

These quotes TV I found most worthy of being highlighted: I guess when it comes down to the nitty gritty state involvement really isn't about just accountability or oversight, we christians know who really runs the state and not to acknowledge that their ultimate aim is to prevail against the church would be being spiritually shortsighted. You're right TV.

Debosky, you make very very good points. I am however afraid you haven't truly attacked it from the spiritual angle as TV hinted in his last post.

The scriptures are deep. Some of the theme's, the nuances, the subtleties once unlocked will truly astound. If you want a plot, if its a storyline you are after, where else you gon' go?

Sometimes you catch a narrative within the narrative and its so crystal clear you think "surely everyone can see this? Sometimes its by revelation, sometimes by knowledge, by understanding, by teaching, even by chance - perhaps? You read, study, search, pray, listen. But when you hear, its simply chilling, when you understand its like wow!

One that runs throught the scriptural writ is the "Bride and the LovePeddler". Its told and retold and is at once ever unfolding. It runs from Genesis to Revelations, it is truly an epic. And I'm pretty convinced I still only see it in part.

"Oh - he cried- the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are His judgments and His ways past finding out!"

God bless
TV

Wow. Great topic, even more lovely discussion! Thanks, people, for shedding so much light!

@ TV

where we disagree is on the role of the state as it were.

In my view, it is the 'world system' (in which the state may or may not be the prime player) that is the enemy of the church, not the government in the sense of seeking probity and accountability. The mentions of Babylon and the LovePeddler are references to a world system, not the state or government per se - the endless desire for material gain, for 'progress' and the like, not the state which often is acting contrary to those forces.

While I fully agree that being unequally yoked is completely reprehensible, it now depends on where this 'authority' emanates from. If I, as both a Christian and a taxpayer request my tax funds to be given to my church, I cannot regard my money given directly to the church and my money given through the state as being materially different, as they both originate from me.

That is where I feel we differ fundamentally.

JeSoul:

I guess when it comes down to the nitty gritty state involvement really isn't about just accountability or oversight, we christians know who really runs the state and not to acknowledge that their ultimate aim is to prevail against the church would be being spiritually shortsighted. You're right TV.

I'm a bit skeptical of that assertion - it doesn't hold true at all times. When the Spirit of the anti-Christ takes over (Now that opens another debate - has it or hasn't it?) then the ultimate aim of the state will be to prevail against the church.

However, in many jurisdictions today, in certain areas - protection of the family, and improving social conditions of the down trodden - both central church goals are identical with the aims of the state. In that regard, the state even looks up to the church for leadership in these areas.

In the final analysis, it ends up being your perception of the role of the state. The state and the 'world system' are, in my understanding, not synonymous, but that is a different discourse  altogether.

It has been very beneficial reading both JeSoul and TV01's viewpoints - we enrich each other.

God Bless.

Hi debosky and thread,

debosky:

where we disagree is on the role of the state as it were.

Narrowing it down to the states relationship with the church, my position is that the state has no role. Seperation. Even where there stated aims are the same, the motivation and often the means will almost certainly be different.

debosky:

In my view, it is the 'world system' (in which the state may or may not be the prime player).

May I ask what in your view are the main elements or who are the main players in the "world system"? As we both acknowledge it exists, there may ultimately be some convergence in our positions.

debosky:

the government in the sense of seeking probity and accountability.

The church does not need the government to ensure probity within it. When the Lord says He is coming for a bride without spot, blemish or wrinkle and that he will build His church (His bride), I don't believe there was anything to indicate He would use the state to ensure her chastity or moral/spiritual purity.

Indeed, the government is unable to truly do so, as its idea of what probity is differs from the churchs and like I mentioned earlier, whilst the aims may seem identical, motivation and means will differ.


tbc

debosky:

The mentions of Babylon and the LovePeddler are references to a world system, not the state or government per se - the endless desire for material gain, for 'progress' and the like, not the state which often is acting contrary to those forces.

The beginnings of an answer to my earlier question. Again, I do not see that we that far removed. Allow me to be somewhat pre-emptive and say that Babylon and the LovePeddler (or The Beast and the LovePeddler) to me represent the state and "false religion" respectively. I also feel they will ultimately ally to persecute the true church. A thought just came into my head, "all the worlds authority is pretty much political or religious (and say some corporate muscle)".

The kingdoms of this world are the evil ones to give and under his control. No matter how benign or even "church-friendly" a state or government might appear, we mustn't lose sight of that.

debosky:

While I fully agree that being unequally yoked is completely reprehensible, it now depends on where this 'authority' emanates from. If I, as both a Christian and a taxpayer request my tax funds to be given to my church, I cannot regard my money given directly to the church and my money given through the state as being materially different, as they both originate from me.

That is where I feel we differ fundamentally.

As a Christian and a taxpayer, your taxes go to the state, as the should. Render unto Ceeasar. For the church to take advantage of any refunds, they have to place themselves  under the states jurisdiction. If it could be accomplished without the subjection, I'd have no problem with it. So a part emanates from you unconditionally and a part emanates from you via the state with conditions that make the church obligated to the state (I'm not blaming you 0! )


tbc

JeSoul:

These quotes TV I found most worthy of being highlighted: I guess when it comes down to the nitty gritty state involvement really isn't about just accountability or oversight, we christians know who really runs the state and not to acknowledge that their ultimate aim is to prevail against the church would be being spiritually shortsighted. You're right TV.

I'm a bit skeptical of that assertion - it doesn't hold true at all times. When the Spirit of the anti-Christ takes over (Now that opens another debate - has it or hasn't it?) then the ultimate aim of the state will be to prevail against the church.

A whole new debate indeed. Again we are agreeing in what, but differing on how. Will it be a "flip of a switch" takeover, or a gradual shift in societal perception, mores, morals, values laws and then like play, like play. The anti-Christ is already in the world. Is it a question of waiting for an opportune moment then striking, or grdually setting the stage? Is the enemy just idling around twiddling his thumbs? or working largely unseen through kingdoms and "false religion" which he both controls?

However, in many jurisdictions today, in certain areas - protection of the family, and improving social conditions of the down trodden - both central church goals are identical with the aims of the state. In that regard, the state even looks up to the church for leadership in these areas.

I could pen a rebuttal to each of these aims for both the state and what obtains in most (mostly false) churches. But not to digress or derail

It has been very beneficial reading both JeSoul and TV01's viewpoints - we enrich each other.

At last. Total agreement !

God bless
TV

Missing JeSoul. Where are you, my sister?

Oops. Sorry! Off-topic!!

@Topic: It's not okay in God's eyes.

THE MESSAGE
[size=14pt]Luk 6:34 If you only give for what you hope to get out of it, do you think that's charity? The stingiest of pawnbrokers does that.[/size]

Mavenb0x:

Missing JeSoul. Where are you, my sister?

Oops. Sorry! Off-topic!!

Maven dearest. Too much of life to live my sister, just too much.

@Topic: It's not okay in God's eyes.
THE MESSAGE
[size=14pt]Luk 6:34 If you only give for what you hope to get out of it, do you think that's charity? The stingiest of pawnbrokers does that.[/size]

The counter arguement I've heard frequently and Debosky repeated here is that some say they file for the refunds and then turn around and give it back to the church. While I am skeptical of how realistic that practice is, it is not my place to declare all who do that are being dubious. Some may very well be doing that faithfully. Only God knows.

debosky:
I'm a bit skeptical of that assertion - it doesn't hold true at all times. When the Spirit of the anti-Christ takes over (Now that opens another debate - has it or hasn't it?) then the ultimate aim of the state will be to prevail against the church.

However, in many jurisdictions today, in certain areas - protection of the family, and improving social conditions of the down trodden - both central church goals are identical with the aims of the state. In that regard, the state even looks up to the church for leadership in these areas.

In the final analysis, it ends up being your perception of the role of the state. The state and the 'world system' are, in my understanding, not synonymous, but that is a different discourse altogether.

lol, another debate indeed.
However I firmly believe that even right now, the anti-christ is already hard at work, I think the scriptures teaches this, no? 1 John 4:3
but every spirit that does not acknowledge Jesus is not from God. This is the spirit of the antichrist, which you have heard is coming and even now is already in the world.

If they are not of us, then they are firmly against us. There is truly no middle ground is there? And I don't think either its about "our perception" of the state role, the scriptures tell us they are against us. While the facade shows us otherwise (family protection, social issues etc), I think we must be wise to look past the physical.

And this doesn't mean we are suspicious and fending off with tenacity any kind of association with the state, not at all. But we recognize that our association should have boundaries and limits. Because the bible tells us the enemy is slick and crafty and will use whatever means to try to bring down the church of Christ.

It has been very beneficial reading both JeSoul and TV01's viewpoints - we enrich each other.
God Bless.

For real it has. Discussions like these be the only reason I bother to come to this section at all. Godbless brothers!

TV01:

Hi debosky and thread,

Narrowing it down to the states relationship with the church, my position is that the state has no role. Seperation. Even where there stated aims are the same, the motivation and often the means will almost certainly be different.

May I ask what in your view are the main elements or who are the main players in the "world system"? As we both acknowledge it exists, there may ultimately be some convergence in our positions.

The church does not need the government to ensure probity within it. When the Lord says He is coming for a bride without spot, blemish or wrinkle and that he will build His church (His bride), I don't believe there was anything to indicate He would use the state to ensure her chastity or moral/spiritual purity.

Indeed, the government is unable to truly do so, as its idea of what probity is differs from the churchs and like I mentioned earlier, whilst the aims may seem identical, motivation and means will differ.


tbc

Interesting. I am very interested in seeing Debosky's response to some of the above.

---

TV01:

Travel section ke? Nairaland has one ! I need to get out the Religion board more. Geek me, lol! Please lemme know.

Lol . . . travel, food, education, movies, foreign affairs etc come out TV, come out . I will try to get to it soonest. You'll find a link in here when its served.