I find the positions of the theist and that of the atheist alike equally untenable. The arguments are familiar enough, an anthropomorphic creator God personalised to suit the tastes of the theist against the opposing views of the rejectionist ideas of the atheist. In my view both arguments are ineffective.

On the theist position, If we state that God is holy then the theists dualist concept of good and bad, evil and sin is surely absurd. For God according to them created everything and necessarily a holy God cannot create that which is unholy, as a result the theist’s position is always in conflict and this conflict, this duality and the theist’s ultimate aim of the resolution of this conflict of good and bad, is at the heart and soul of the formation of all religious doctrines. The theist argument for the existence of God cannot ever be a priori it is in fact bound to remain dishonest.

We say that Truth cannot be said, if it is said it cannot be true.

The atheist position is lamentable. I often tell my atheist friends that God is not a thing to be proven or dis-proven. God is not an object about which we can take some opinion for or against. God is a possibility within you. It is not something out there; it is a possibility within you. If you move towards that possibility, God becomes real. If you don't, then God is unreal to you. You remain the same in a vicious cycle of a self-fulfilling prophecy, you argue that God does not exist, therefore you never travel towards God, because it is an inner journey. So you remain the same, therefore you never encounter God. Then it is proven for you that God does not exist. I always say it is not a question of whether God exists or not, It is simply a question of whether you wish to grow or not.

All of the holy books in the world compounded will not provide a shred of discrete evidence that God exists.

All of the logical arguments of the brightest and most brilliant atheists through the ages will not provide a shred of discrete evidence that God does not exist.

At least the atheist position is absolute, there cannot be any other type of atheism. Atheists have no sects, when they say there is no God, the whole thing is finished.

Equally lamentable for theists is the fact that there are so many religions in the world. There are at least three hundred religions in existence right now. So theism has hundreds of temples, churches, scriptures dedicated to a likely God with the possibility of differences because when you answer in the affirmative that God exists then you create or choose your own God, be it Jesus, Jehovah, Allah or Krishna.

Theism is not an altruistic undertaking, all religions are fear based and in my view any nation that encourages its youth to be religious is a regressive nation.

God is essential to religion, but religion is not essential to God, atheists have reached the Divine by finding out the truth about themselves, the great Buddha was an atheist he did not believe in any God but he found out the truth about himself and transcended, he was described as the most godless man and the most god-like. The possibility always exists regardless that if you find out the true state of your being that you can encounter God.

Jesus Christ was not born a Christian, neither was Muhammad born a Muslim, each had to become atheist in order to experience the Divine God, that is to say they each had to return their minds to a state of complete emptiness in order that it became filled with Divine essence. And therein lies the crux, no two persons ever experiences the Divine in the same manner.

We cannot experience God through the eyes of another, we each have to find our own path, and this is why I say that the theist and atheist positions are both untenable, they are different sides of the same coin, but essentially they sing from the same hymn book, neither really experiences God.

Interesting, both are two sides of a coin.

To better understand your post, what do you understand the word "God" to mean?

If we state that God is holy then the theists dualist concept of good and bad, evil and sin is surely absurd. For God according to them created everything and necessarily a holy God cannot create that which is unholy

WRONG!

GOD created everything "good". But GOD took the greatest risk in creating beings with freewill(angels and men) that could CHOOSE to disobey His law and disrupt the peace of the universe. That, combined with the apparent law that in this present universe, everything that could go wrong would eventually go wrong, makes it a bit less surprising that sin and evil exist today.

That said, the appearance of sin within the courts of Heaven, and the fact that it was from the most beautiful and most powerful being next to GOD remains a mystery.

Following

Sarassin, Buddha was not an atheist , he was more like an apatheist - someone who does not care if God exists or not .

Jesus Christ was a Jew culturally and religiously. He was called 'Rabbi' Jewish appellation for a teacher .

Muhammed was a theist even from birth since polytheism and paganism was rampant during his time before his reformations with Islamic doctrine.

Atheism is the belief that God does not exist, there was no indication historically that both Christ and Muhammed emptied themselves to experience God .

Christ was God incarnated , Muhammed was a theist who saw himself as the prophet of God .

Deism , a type of theism has separated itself from revealed theology , the theology that instigates religious practices doctrines ,and beliefs . Deism works solely on natural Theology, acknowledging the existence of the Divine purely on logical grounds . So it's erroneous to completely associate theism with religion .

Atheists too can be part of both theistic and non theistic religions. In theistic religions , an atheist can reject both the worship and existence of the diety while accepting the moral teachings mostly and pursuing spiritual Enlightenment

Mumbo jumbo. What definition of god are you using?

LightandDarkness:
To better understand your post, what do you understand the word "God" to mean?

God is, and God is not.

Sarassin:


God is, and God is not.

Still unclear for me, I'm not trying to argue. Just trying to understand your position

DoctorAlien:


WRONG!

GOD created everything "good". But GOD took the greatest risk in creating beings with freewill(angels and men) that could CHOOSE to disobey His law and disrupt the peace of the universe. That, combined with the apparent law that in this present universe, everything that could go wrong would eventually go wrong, makes it a bit less surprising that sin and evil exist today.

That said, the appearance of sin within the courts of Heaven, and the fact that it was from the most beautiful and most powerful being next to GOD remains a mystery.

We say that God created everything, and that God is holy. Then the matter ends there.
The idea that freewill is outside the purview of God is subjective, You cannot know this.

Sarassin:
I find the positions of the theist and that of the atheist alike equally untenable. The arguments are familiar enough, an anthropomorphic creator God personalised to suit the tastes of the theist against the opposing views of the rejectionist ideas of the atheist. In my view both arguments are ineffective.

On the theist position, If we state that God is holy then the theists dualist concept of good and bad, evil and sin is surely absurd. For God according to them created everything and necessarily a holy God cannot create that which is unholy, as a result the theist’s position is always in conflict and this conflict, this duality and the theist’s ultimate aim of the resolution of this conflict of good and bad, is at the heart and soul of the formation of all religious doctrines. The theist argument for the existence of God cannot ever be a priori it is in fact bound to remain dishonest.

We say that Truth cannot be said, if it is said it cannot be true.

The atheist position is lamentable. I often tell my atheist friends that God is not a thing to be proven or dis-proven. God is not an object about which we can take some opinion for or against. God is a possibility within you. It is not something out there; it is a possibility within you. If you move towards that possibility, God becomes real. If you don't, then God is unreal to you. You remain the same in a vicious cycle of a self-fulfilling prophecy, you argue that God does not exist, therefore you never travel towards God, because it is an inner journey. So you remain the same, therefore you never encounter God. Then it is proven for you that God does not exist. I always say it is not a question of whether God exists or not, It is simply a question of whether you wish to grow or not.

All of the holy books in the world compounded will not provide a shred of discrete evidence that God exists.

All of the logical arguments of the brightest and most brilliant atheists through the ages will not provide a shred of discrete evidence that God does not exist.

At least the atheist position is absolute, there cannot be any other type of atheism. Atheists have no sects, when they say there is no God, the whole thing is finished.

Equally lamentable for theists is the fact that there are so many religions in the world. There are at least three hundred religions in existence right now. So theism has hundreds of temples, churches, scriptures dedicated to a likely God with the possibility of differences because when you answer in the affirmative that God exists then you create or choose your own God, be it Jesus, Jehovah, Allah or Krishna.

Theism is not an altruistic undertaking, all religions are fear based and in my view any nation that encourages its youth to be religious is a regressive nation.

God is essential to religion, but religion is not essential to God, atheists have reached the Divine by finding out the truth about themselves, the great Buddha was an atheist he did not believe in any God but he found out the truth about himself and transcended, he was described as the most godless man and the most god-like. The possibility always exists regardless that if you find out the true state of your being that you can encounter God.

Jesus Christ was not born a Christian, neither was Muhammad born a Muslim, each had to become atheist in order to experience the Divine God, that is to say they each had to return their minds to a state of complete emptiness in order that it became filled with Divine essence. And therein lies the crux, no two persons ever experiences the Divine in the same manner.

We cannot experience God through the eyes of another, we each have to find our own path, and this is why I say that the theist and atheist positions are both untenable, they are different sides of the same coin, but essentially they sing from the same hymn book, neither really experiences God.

nice.but a list if this paths would do

yeah. that's one of the reasons i don't engage in theist-atheist arguments... both sides make valuable points .. but both are flawed.. the theist can argue for a deistic God but not the Jewish or Muslim one..... the atheist asks for evidence of God while looking for a white bearded man somewhere in the sky forgetting that there are different concepts of God... at times both sides claim to know everything... sometimes both sides stoop low to claim that the opposing side has a mental problem.. I've done this before and i do regret it... but then its all about choice.. you can choose to believe in a creator or not.. as long as you're not forcing it on other people or insulting others because of their belief/disbelief.. then its ok.. live and let live

Sarrassin

Talk is cheap.
Begging the question doesn't make you any special.

We cannot experience God through the eyes of another, we each have to find our own path, and this is why I say that the theist and atheist positions are both untenable, they are different sides of the same coin, but essentially they sing from the same hymn book, neither really experiences God.

Have you experienced any god?

ScepticalPyrrho:
Sarrassin

Talk is cheap.
Begging the question doesn't make you any special.

Have you experienced any god?

Why the complex? what claims to specialdom have I made for myself?
And if I have experienced God, why on earth would I wish to discuss my experience with you?

Sarassin:


Why the complex? what claims to specialdom have I made for myself?
And if I have experienced God, why on earth would I wish to discuss my experience with you?

You are still hanging...

Cleverly... still begging the question.

Nice op

KingEbukasBlog:
Sarassin, Buddha was not an atheist , he was more like an apatheist - someone who does not care if God exists or not .

Jesus Christ was a Jew culturally and religiously. He was called 'Rabbi' Jewish appellation for a teacher .

Muhammed was a theist even from birth since polytheism and paganism was rampant during his time before his reformations with Islamic doctrine.

Atheism is the belief that God does not exist, there was no indication historically that both Christ and Muhammed emptied themselves to experience God .

Christ was God incarnated , Muhammed was a theist who saw himself as the prophet of God .

Deism , a type of theism has separated itself from revealed theology , the theology that instigates religious practices doctrines ,and beliefs . Deism works solely on natural Theology, acknowledging the existence of the Divine purely on logical grounds . So it's erroneous to completely associate theism with religion .

Atheists too can be part of both theistic and non theistic religions. In theistic religions , an atheist can reject both the worship and existence of the diety while accepting the moral teachings mostly and pursuing spiritual Enlightenment

You are of course right he was not an atheist but Buddha denied everything, he appeared to be an atheist because he said that there is no God, he said there is no soul, he said there is nothing substantial in existence. He returned his mind to an “atheist” state in order to experience the Divine.

I understand your construct of atheism but I do not necessarily agree. I believe it is a theistic fait accompli and an abstract definition. Necessarily atheism has to be a state of mind. Few who profess atheism will ever actually experience atheism, nevermind all the exhortations and denials. That is, if we define atheism in its purest sense as the absence of the Divine essence in each of us. To fully explain, the possibility to encounter God resides in each of us, it is a darn sight harder to remove that possibility, of course one can choose to ignore it and that is where most self-professed atheists end up, but in truth most atheists will never achieve the state of utter atheistic bliss.

I know fully well what Jesus and Muhammad were, there are instances of both men retreating over periods of time to achieve Gnosis but I don’t want to get side-tracked. The writers of scripture understood full well that men do not simply wake up one morning and become divine.

ScepticalPyrrho:
You are still hanging...

Cleverly... still begging the question.

I am not sure what you claim is still hanging. I have made no claims to specialdom, only stated my opinions. You have asked if I have experienced God and that is not something i wish to discuss with you.

Sarassin:


I am not sure what you claim is still hanging. I have made no claims to specialdom, only stated my opinions. You have asked if I have experienced God and that is not something i wish to discuss with you.

Because it doesn't matter all the same. It's all in your head.

Wilgrea7:
yeah. that's one of the reasons i don't engage in theist-atheist arguments... both sides make valuable points .. but both are flawed.. the theist can argue for a deistic God but not the Jewish or Muslim one..... the atheist asks for evidence of God while looking for a white bearded man somewhere in the sky forgetting that there are different concepts of God... at times both sides claim to know everything... sometimes both sides stoop low to claim that the opposing side has a mental problem.. I've done this before and i do regret it... but then its all about choice.. you can choose to believe in a creator or not.. as long as you're not forcing it on other people or insulting others because of their belief/disbelief.. then its ok.. live and let live

Perfect.

ScepticalPyrrho:
Because it doesn't matter all the same. It's all in your head.

I quite agree that it is all in my head. The question is do you have anything in your head with regards an opinion on the OP either way?

Sarassin:


I quite agree that it is all in my head. The question is do you have anything in your head with regards an opinion on the OP either way?

It's in yours... that is all I can say

ScepticalPyrrho:
It's in yours... that is all I can say

Thank you very much sir.

Sarassin:


Thank you very much sir.

You're welcome.

Can anyone else who agrees or shared the op tell us which God you experienced?

These God(s) the op is referring to isn't named and he has dodged the questions to avoid scrutiny.
It's safe to say the post is flawed like all other God-claims.

ScepticalPyrrho:

You're welcome.

Can anyone else who agrees or shared the op tell us which God you experienced?

These God(s) the op is referring to isn't named and he has dodged the questions to avoid scrutiny.
It's safe to say the post is flawed like all other God-claims.

This was a keypoint in sarassin's post "God is a possibility within you''
Why are you looking for a "name", the subject here is not something external like you are used to in atheist-theist debate, it's simply a higher state of mind.

4kings:

This was a keypoint in sarassin's post "God is a possibility within you''
Why are you looking for a "name", the subject here is not something external like you are used to in atheist-theist debate, it's simply a higher state of mind.

If it isn't the same eternal mumbo-jumbo, you need to define what God means in these contexts.
People who hold onto claims like this are religion-apologists. Must we have a higher state of mind to feel elated? People have always searched for a higher purpose. It's this desire that claims like this emanate from. We just have to be more isn't it? But what exactly are we? You can make-up your own heightening in your head to keep you feeling special, it doesn't make you/us any more special...

Who determines what a higher state of mind is? Please...

Mr Skeptical, I want to assume you haven't realised what you are doing is basically called internet trolling. If the answers you seek aren't here why not keep searching till you find it. @sarassin hi.

ScepticalPyrrho:
If it isn't the same eternal mumbo-jumbo, you need to define what God means in these contexts.
People who hold onto claims like this are religion-apologists. Must we have a higher state of mind to feel elated?

YES.

People have always searched for a higher purpose. It's this desire that claims like this emanate from. We just have to be more isn't it? But what exactly are we? You can make-up your own heightening in your head to keep you feeling special, it doesn't make you/us any more special...

Who determines what a higher state of mind is? Please...

The mad man, the hypnotized, the decieved/deluded, the man of certain knowledge and one without, the unconscious.
I don't need to go any further, you should now see that the above adddresses your question in it's simplest form and you can determine yourself what makes you feel ''special''.

FlipGamBino:
Mr Skeptical, I want to assume you haven't realised what you are doing is basically called internet trolling. If the answers you seek aren't here why not keep searching till you find it. @sarassin hi.

Hi FlipGamBino how have you been ?

ScepticalPyrrho:

You're welcome.

Can anyone else who agrees or shared the op tell us which God you experienced?

These God(s) the op is referring to isn't named and he has dodged the questions to avoid scrutiny.
It's safe to say the post is flawed like all other God-claims.

My post is crystal clear on my notions of God. The fact that this notion does not fit into your preconceived ready-to-dispute theist/atheist contraption really is your own affair. You say that I have dodged questions to avoid scrutiny, really? You seek my reinforcement of your jaundiced view and because it is not forthcoming you throw accusations around. I say God is an experience within you, if you dispute my assertion go and seek an experience of God within you and when you have tried all known methods in the world to experience God and you have failed you can then come back and say my post is flawed.

KingEbukasBlog:


Atheists too can be part of both theistic and non theistic religions. In theistic religions , an atheist can reject both the worship and existence of the diety while accepting the moral teachings mostly and pursuing spiritual Enlightenment

Moral teachings like what?
Stoning a person for committing adultery?
Death for apostasy?
Stoning a person to death for breaking the sabbath?
These "moral" teachings don't sound so moral to me.

noobtheloser:
Moral teachings like what?
Stoning a person for committing adultery?
Death for apostasy?
Stoning a person to death for breaking the sabbath?
These "moral" teachings don't sound so moral to me.

I see your point, but then you should debate this with the Jews.
Your points dont apply to Christianity !!