so TV01 you are saying in essence that if a man errs and commits adultery,repents of it,his wife could refuse to forgive him and take him back on that grounds.
Let's be careful what we say,there is still a thing known as forgiveness.
We cannot pick and choose what suits us,a forgiving spirit should be in any true Christian.

Its another story when the man is a repeat offender or even sees nothing wrong in his adulterous living.That's not what I'm referring to.
And mamaput,when a man sexually abuses his daughter is another whole story,any woman with a brain ought to turn over to the law as she flees.

babyosisi:

so TV01 you are saying in essence that if a man errs and commits adultery,repents of it,his wife could refuse to forgive him and take him back on that grounds.
Let's be careful what we say,there is still a thing known as forgiveness.
We cannot pick and choose what suits us,a forgiving spirit should be in any true Christian.

TV01:

And finally, although I see adultery as the only reason for divorce, I don't say it has to lead to divorce. The crux is forgiveness. As God constantly forgave adulterous Israel and Christ is constantly sanctifying his Church/Bride, divorce (again except in an extreme inverterate case) reeks of unforgiveness. It's why the decision to divorce if taken, does not mean you can re-marry. What you are saying is either you are not willing to forgive and happy to live alone, or this persons infidelity is so unyielding that its better for you to live alone.

Hi Babyosisi, Happy new year. While I was on my Nairaland posting (but not reviewing) fast, I read about your nuptials, may I offer my belated congratulations and wish you and your spouse a delightful and fruitful union.

There was a little needle in our discourse last year, so while we are expounding on "forgiveness" I apologise for any offence on my part, and I am happy to let bygones be bygones.

I hope my repost above satisfactorily answers your query, as I trust you would not intentionally mis-quote me.

God bless.

trini_girl:

My question is then, how do you divorce in the eyes of God? How do you reverse a spiritual committment in God's sight?

If the marriage had God's hand in it in the first place, then there's nothing like divorce in God's dictionary, as far as that marriage is concerned. Unless, of course, "death do you part".

TV01:

Hi Babyosisi, Happy new year. While I was on my Nairaland posting (but not reviewing) fast, I read about your nuptials, may I offer my belated congratulations and wish you and your spouse a delightful and fruitful union.

There was a little needle in our discourse last year, so while we are expounding on "forgiveness" I apologise for any offence on my part, and I am happy to let bygones be bygones. I hope my repost above answers satisfactorily answers your query, as I trust you would not intentionally mis-quote me.

God bless.

Well thanks and on our little saga on the Ted Haggard thread,I ask you to forgive me also.
Happy new year to you and yours.

TV01:

Hmmm. First of all, please re-read what you wrote above. Ae you saying adultery is not a reason for divorce, but if you do it on that basis you haven't sinned? I can't see the reasoning behind that. Could I ask you to clarify or illustrate please  .

Maybe it's the application of our words here, I really don't know.

I guess you know that when a man divorces his wife on a good day, for any other reason(s) apart from adultery, he is making her liable to commit adultery because she's most likely to re-marry, even while the husband is still alive, which is not permissible by God (Matthew 19:9, Mark 10:11-12, Rom 7:2-3, I Cor 7:39).  Now, according to Matt 5:32, adultery is not a reason for divorce.  That is, it is not a cause for you to divorce your spouse.  You should not divorce because of adultery.  That passage is only making us realise that a man is not guilty of making his wife commit adultery, if he divorces her on that basis, because she is already committing the sin even before the divorce.  It does not imply that you're free to divorce your wife if she's an adulteress, but that if you choose to, then you won't be held responsible for her sins, that is, the sin will be on her alone.  That passage is very clear.  (Okay, maybe not too clear. )

TV01:

My point is that sexual immorality is a reason for divorce, as it absolves you from sin if the offending party remarries.

Since it absolves you of sin if the offending party remarries, then it isn't a reason for divorce.  It's more like an effect of divorce, on that basis. Let's look at it this way:  In the Matt 5 27-28, Jesus talked about lusting after a woman being equal to adultery.  So, are you saying now that if a man lusts after another woman in his mind, his wife has the right to divorce him?  I guess not.  Now, apply this to my own explanation and see how they match.

God bless.

Hi goodguy,

I still can't say I fully understand your position. I can't even say if we totally differ or if we are just talking perspective here. I've re-read the scriptures quoted. Let me ask this;

1. Are you saying marriage is lifelong whatever the issue?

2. That if a spouse divorces because of adultery, such a one has committed a sin for divorcing, but is not responsible for the adultery of the offending partner if they remarry, as adultery had already been perpetrated? This implies that divorce itself is a sin.

3. What then is the situation if adultery is committed, divorce ensues, but neither party remarries?

Would you also disagree with a rendering of Matthew 5:32 in two parts? Being

1.Divorce for any reason except sexual immorality is a causing the divorced party to commit adultery if they remarry.

2. Remarriage by a divorced spouse is adultry, because as I have mentioned (and bourne out by both Romans & Corinthians 7, remarriage apart from death is always adultery.

I am starting to appreciate your view. And I must say it's an interesting take.

God bless

@topic.

I will like to come back and respond to it.

BUT KNOW THAT ANY FORM OF DIVORCE IS A SIN. YOU MAY HOWEVER PUT A WOMAN AWAY IF SHE OR HE HAS COMMITTED THE SIN OF ADULTERY AND YOU MUST REMAIN UNMARRIED.

Lets take a look at this scenario:
(Unbelieving i.e. not born again)Man and woman get married. Man (or woman) gets saved few years into their marriage. Unbelieving partner decides to get a divorce (for whatever reason) and remarries. where does this development leave the believeing christian? can he/she remarry?

lafile:

Unbelieving partner decides to get a divorce (for whatever reason) and remarries. where does this development leave the believeing christian? can he/she remarry?

1. "Unbelieving partner decides to get a divorce (for whatever reason) and remarries"
>> "If any woman has a husband who is an unbeliever, and he consents to live with her, she should not divorce him. . . But if the unbelieving partner separates, let it be so. . ." [I Cor. 7:13 & 15].

2. "where does this development leave the believeing christian?"
>> ". . .In such cases the brother or sister is not enslaved. God has called you to peace." [I Cor. 7:15b]

3. "can he/she remarry?"
". . .In such cases the brother or sister is not enslaved" (vs. 15).

@shahan
You just made the point i was getting at. In my understanding of 1Cor 7, i believe that if the christian party decides to remarry, he/she is n ot into adultery.

shahan:

3. "can he/she remarry?"
". . .In such cases the brother or sister is not enslaved" (vs. 15).

Yes, but can she re-marry? Especially in light of Romans 7 & 1 Corinthians 7, which stipulate a lifetime bond until death do part.

yes, i believe he/she can.

1 Cor 7:15 But if the unbelieving depart, let him depart. [b]A brother or a sister is not under bondage in such cases: but God hath called us to peace.[KJV][/b]
I believe when Paul says a brother or sister is not under bondage when his/her unbelieveing partner leaves it indicates that if a believing partner decides to leave, then the other party IS under bondage in the sense that he/she CANNOT remarry.
I believe this passage was directed specifically to people who got married outside Christ. Why?
In verses 10 and 11 of 1corinthians, Paul gives the command concerning divorce.

7:10 And unto the married I command, yet not I, but the Lord, Let not the wife depart from her husband:

7:11 But and if she depart, let her remain unmarried or be reconciled to her husband: and let not the husband put away his wife.
why then did he give another set of rules from verse 12? and who where "the rest" he was refering to at the beginning of verse 12?

7:12 But to the rest speak I, not the Lord: If any brother hath a wife that believeth not, and she be pleased to dwell with him, let him not put her away

lafile:

yes, i believe he/she can.

1 Cor 7:15 But if the unbelieving depart, let him depart. [b]A brother or a sister is not under bondage in such cases: but God hath called us to peace.[KJV][/b]
I believe when Paul says a brother or sister is not under bondage when his/her unbelieveing partner leaves it indicates that if a believing partner decides to leave, then the other party IS under bondage in the sense that he/she CANNOT remarry.
I believe this passage was directed specifically to people who got married outside Christ. Why?
In verses 10 and 11 of 1corinthians, Paul gives the command concerning divorce.

7:10 And unto the married I command, yet not I, but the Lord, Let not the wife depart from her husband:

7:11 But and if she depart, let her remain unmarried or be reconciled to her husband: and let not the husband put away his wife.
why then did he give another set of rules from verse 12? and who where "the rest" he was refering to at the beginning of verse 12?

7:12 But to the rest speak I, not the Lord: If any brother hath a wife that believeth not, and she be pleased to dwell with him, let him not put her away

Doesn't the scripture quoted suggest otherwise? In the event of a spouse leaving (even with due cause, i.e. adultery), he/she is to remain single.

If you say there is an exception for those married outside Christ (and for those who repudiate the faith maybe?). That is still just the one exception, which I have had cause to ponder.

In a marriage between a couple outside Christ which ends in divorce. Both parties move on and re-marry. Then one or both of the seperated and remarried couple comes to Christ? Do they term their current relationships adulterous? due to the previous marriage?

It's indeed very tricky. Lets say after coming to Christ the new spouse leaves? Then what? Singledom? re-marriage?

Making hard and fast rules can make one seem legalistic. Trying not to make hard and fast rules can open up all sorts of "reasoning" to justify actions which may be contrary.

What do people think?

God bless

God's word accept divorce, but only when either partner commits adultry.

@TV01
I agree that marriage and divorce issues can be very tricky and should be handled on a case to case.

Concerning the questions you asked,

TV01:


In a marriage between a couple outside Christ which ends in divorce. Both parties move on and re-marry. Then one or both of the seperated and remarried couple comes to Christ? Do they term their current relationships adulterous? due to the previous marriage?

In the light of 1 Cor 7, i dont think so. However, a married christian should remain married. whether their spouse is a christian or not, no christian should initiate a divorce. Paul specifically asked christians to remain married to their unbelieveing partners, as long as the unbelieving partner agrees to stay married.

Divorce should not only be based on Adultery alone, in my personal perspective, it should arise only when there's love lost between the c ouple, simple.If there's no love lost neither of the party will never commit adultery and will never do any harm against the other.
Biblically, divorce is only and always against the females, there's no where the bible said the wife should divorce the man on the ground of infidelity, thats arrant nonsense.And always on the support of the males.
The church sees nothing wrong on the ground that the husband commit adultery, but so many wrongs on the part of the females.
Once there's no love btw the paries then divorce should follow.Cos its only this "love" that should be the foundation of every marriage, once this is missing then there's nothing like marriage again.

All the contributions are really interesting in this matter. I have a case at hand that I need you guys' views on.

A teenage friend of mine got married 14 years ago to a wonderful lady. Unfortunately he was very unfaithful and was sleeping with whatever he could (including attempts on wife's sister and neighbour's housemaid). Eventually, he got his old girlfriend pregnant, but his wife still without a child. They are now separated for about 5 years and my friend is with the other lady. They are both professing Christians. They are not divorced yet, but there's no end in sight for there problem. The woman wants a life. She is [b][/b]VERY miserable. She was the bread winner and most of the things she ever worked for are now being used by the other lady.

Does she continue like this until she dies? DON'T OVER "SPIRITUALISE" PLEASE. Thank you

goodguy:

If the marriage had God's hand in it in the first place, then there's nothing like divorce in God's dictionary, as far as that marriage is concerned. Unless, of course, "death do you part".

My point precisely!!!


[table]

femi4love:

All the contributions are really interesting in this matter. I have a case at hand that I need you guys' views on.

A teenage friend of mine got married 14 years ago to a wonderful lady. Unfortunately he was very unfaithful and was sleeping with whatever he could (including attempts on wife's sister and neighbour's housemaid). Eventually, he got his old girlfriend pregnant, but his wife still without a child. They are now separated for about 5 years and my friend is with the other lady. They are both professing Christians. They are not divorced yet, but there's no end in sight for there problem. The woman wants a life. She is [b][/b]VERY miserable. She was the bread winner and most of the things she ever worked for are now being used by the other lady.

Does she continue like this until she dies? DON'T OVER "SPIRITUALISE" PLEASE. Thank you

[/table]

My fellow 'lander,

Leave them there let them be pontificating! It's very easy when you are on the outside with no experience whatsoever, arguing 'spiri'' 'spiri'. Let them go to my old church and see how many 'spiri-jim-jim' brethren who married under pressure/manipulation of pastor always preaching on marriage and see how many have also divorced, separated, gone with others, under the same volcanic pressure!

I just pray that none of you find yourselves in a position where 'you that thinkest you stand, ' It may not necessarily be marriage; it may be other issues. Just remember, it is only by the grace of God not by your ability to expound and expose scripture.

If King David, 'a man after Jehovah's heart could fall, then,

Ka Chineke mezie okwu

Divorce is a sin.
God hates divorce. In the word of God which sayz "therefore shall a man leave his father and mother and cleave to his wife and they two shall be oe flesh. he has commanded us to abstain from divorce so likewise did Paul the Apostle. He admonished the corinthians. God hates divorce it is a isn before God. Divorcing ur spouse means ireesponsibility so therefore as christians we should therefore ot indulge in this sinful act.

If your wife commits adultery or vice versa forgive even as Christ also forgave the church and gave himself for it.

And if you are maltreated the you need to pray to God to chage the situation if that man or woman is right fully yours.

Stay blessed

mekoyo:

Divorce is a sin.
God hates divorce. In the word of God which sayz "therefore shall a man leave his father and mother and cleave to his wife and they two shall be oe flesh. he has commanded us to abstain from divorce so likewise did Paul the Apostle. He admonished the corinthians. God hates divorce it is a isn before God. Divorcing your spouse means ireesponsibility so therefore as christians we should therefore ot indulge in this sinful act.

If your wife commits adultery or vice versa forgive even as Christ also forgave the church and gave himself for it.

And if you are maltreated the you need to pray to God to chage the situation if that man or woman is right fully yours.

Stay blessed

I disagree with almost everything you've said.
I will not say divorce is a sin,because sometimes divorce is the only option.
There has been various scenarios given by other posters including a husband that moves in another woman and impregnates her or an unbelieving spouse that leaves a believer or even one that backslides and leaves a spouse,are you saying such a spouse is condemned to a life alone.
How about a man that abuses his wife physically,should she endure and pray until we come to retrieve her corpse from the matrimonial home?

enugu:


My point precisely!!!


[table][/table]

My fellow 'lander,

Leave them there let them be pontificating! It's very easy when you are on the outside with no experience whatsoever, arguing 'spiri'' 'spiri'. Let them go to my old church and see how many 'spiri-jim-jim' brethren who married under pressure/manipulation of pastor always preaching on marriage and see how many have also divorced, separated, gone with others, under the same volcanic pressure!

I just pray that none of you find yourselves in a position where 'you that thinkest you stand, ' It may not necessarily be marriage; it may be other issues. Just remember, it is only by the grace of God not by your ability to expound and expose scripture.

If King David, 'a man after Jehovah's heart could fall, then,

Ka Chineke mezie okwu

Amen.
Hi Enugu you always have some great contributions,I love reading from you but you're scarce to find
Bless you.

Bleh. Men who wrote the bible didn't like divorce, and so they projected their opinions on an imaginary God.

TV01:

1. Are you saying marriage is lifelong whatever the issue?

A marriage based on proper foundation should be lifelong, no matter what happens. And when something eventually happens, it shouldn't be beyond resolution because it has God's consent.

TV01:

2. That if a spouse divorces because of adultery, such a one has committed a sin for divorcing, but is not responsible for the adultery of the offending partner if they remarry, as adultery had already been perpetrated? This implies that divorce itself is a sin.

When a spouse divorces because of adultery, he/she has not committed any sin for divorcing, because the basis of the divorce is on adultery perpetrated by the offending party [the adulterer(ess)]. Moreso, the spouse is not responsible for the adultery of the offending party if they remarry, as you rightly put it. This therefore makes the "divorcer" free of two sins.

TV01:

3. What then is the situation if adultery is committed, divorce ensues, but neither party remarries?

If the offending party is truly repentant, but the spouse is not willing to forgive, then the spouse may be to blame and likely to face to music -- not for the sin of divorce, nor for the sins of the offending party, but for the unwillingness to forgive (Matthew 6:14-15; Matthew 18:21-35; Mark 11:24-25; Ephesians 4:26,31-32; Hebrews 12:15). Remember Jesus said that the reason why Moses gave the law for divorce on the basis of adultery in Deut 24 was because of the hardness of the heart of men (Mark 10:5). But he further admonished them on the fact that a man and his wife are meant to be together forever (Mark 10:9), because once they are joined together by God, they are now ONE flesh (Mark 10:7-.

TV01:

Would you also disagree with a rendering of Matthew 5:32 in two parts? Being

1.Divorce for any reason except sexual immorality is a causing the divorced party to commit adultery if they remarry.

2. Remarriage by a divorced spouse is adultry, because as I have mentioned (and bourne out by both Romans & Corinthians 7, remarriage apart from death is always adultery.

I do not disagree. These are my point exactly!

God bless.

@Goodguy, nicely put. I see your point, can't say I disagree with anything and you've helped me see the same position from a slightly different view, adding depth. Thank you & God bless.

The only solution is to prayerfully marry a believer with the same values as you do and discuss those values at courtship to know if you really stand in the same boat.
Bear in mind that someone from a divorced home is more likely to want divorce when the unpalatable side of marriage shows up.

Again we seem to be hammering on just adultery,there are many Christians that have divorced for other reasons like extreme physical and mental abuse,as a woman,I advise any woman in that situation to get out before she is killed or she goes mental.
What do you people say?Should the woman(or man) remain unmarried?

Well stated goodguy!

babyosisi:

Again we seem to be hammering on just adultery,there are many Christians that have divorced for other reasons like extreme physical and mental abuse,as a woman,I advise any woman in that situation to get out before she is killed or she goes mental.
What do you people say?Should the woman(or man) remain unmarried?

Not really, adultery and forgiveness appear to be the the two crux issues.

I don't deny spousal abuse is real, but the truth is, it is not essential to an understanding of the scriptures, is it? For a start, like you mentioned it's "extreme", and again like you mentioned, the foundation should be right. If it is, abuse should be very rare. And where it does occur, the "shared values" (and proper Christian intervention) should convict and help the errant partner revert to that foundation (which is Christ).

Again, on a basis of marriage being a lifelong bond, the suffering party may have to seperate, but it is always with a view towards healing and reconciliation (on that same basis). I think the error is to see seperation/divorce as a pre-cursor to re-marriage. No, no, no. 

I think most points have been covered and well articulated. I'd be interested to see if anyone can bring additional insight or nuance to the discussion.

God bless.

In all of these religious sanctimonies, where is God's purpose for marriage?
Can there ever be God's purpose in Divorce?
Which one is supreme: The plan to bring you to an expected end or an expected spouse?
Until u know the purpose of a thing abuse is inevitable.
Until you know the value of your patner, divorce is an option
What you dont value, you will eventually abuse
PRIDE and abuse is the root cause of all divorce.
This is my layman's understanding.

TV01:

Not really, adultery and forgiveness appear to be the the two crux issues.

I don't deny spousal abuse is real, but the truth is, it is not essential to an understanding of the scriptures, is it? For a start, like you mentioned it's "extreme", and again like you mentioned, the foundation should be right. If it is, abuse should be very rare. And where it does occur, the "shared values" (and proper Christian intervention) should convict and help the errant partner revert to that foundation (which is Christ).

Again, on a basis of marriage being a lifelong bond, the suffering party may have to seperate, but it is always with a view towards healing and reconciliation (on that same basis). I think the error is to see seperation/divorce as a pre-cursor to re-marriage. No, no, no. 

I think most points have been covered and well articulated. I'd be interested to see if anyone can bring additional insight or nuance to the discussion.

God bless.

True. All the juicy points have been covered by the likes of goodguy, lafile and others. Similar attempts at dissuading the minds of some divorced folks from living in unholy unions in the past fell on deaf ears and blind eyes. These indeed are the last days.

boladonas:

In all of these religious sanctimonies, where is God's purpose for marriage?
Can there ever be God's purpose in Divorce?
Which one is supreme: The plan to bring you to an expected end or an expected spouse?
Until u know the purpose of a thing abuse is inevitable.
Until you know the value of your patner, divorce is an option
What you don't value, you will eventually abuse
PRIDE and abuse is the root cause of all divorce.
This is my layman's understanding.

Note the points highlighted.

1. There's a wide gap between God bringing you to an expected end and His leading you to an expected spouse. Although, the type of woman/man you marry will, to a large extent, determine where you will spend eternity. But let it be known to you that God will not choose your spouse for you. You've got to go out there and look for one that is compatible with you. And there's no room for mistakes. Once you get one and you went all the way to the altar with that man/woman, in the presence of all concerned parties and with their consent, then you stick with him/her through thick and thin.

2. I agree with you that Pride and abuse (Selfishness) are at the root of almost all divorce cases.

Now, I've got questions for goodguy et al. Some people get boxed into unwanted marriages by family, peers etc. And they go into such marriages with their eyes wide open. Then after a some time they come complaining to all that they're regretting ever going into such a union and want out. What do you advice such one to do? 


I see this is my 1000th post. I think I need a break.

What happened to for better we stay and for worse we depart? I honestly don't see any reason why somebody should stay in a relationship when it is not favaourable? I personally don't want to subject any one to both mental, emotional or psychological torture. Marriage should not be a do or die affair and no one should see it as such.

Am I even making sence? Please, do pardonme. I seem to be off my Hinges.

Is it still me?

matthew 5 v 31 - 32, matthew 19.9, mark10. 11 - 12, luke16.18

the only reason you can divorce your wife is if she is unfaithful to you.

[color=#000099]

babyosisi:

Amen.
Hi Enugu you always have some great contributions,I love reading from you but you're scarce to find
Bless you.

[/color]

Nwannem,

I dey o! But I'm trying to be 'swift to hear and slow to speak'  I have been in the position of pontification and I've also been in the position of seeing it happen and all my pontification flew out of the window! I have seen men and women of God pontificate and fall into the same sin they preached against!!!

It's always easy to sit on a high chair and point out one's holiness but when trials and tribulations come, that is when we will know who really is a vessel of honour.

I don't know if you read christian fiction but that's what ministers to me more than study books; if you do, I recommend RESCUED by Tommy Bevere and Matthew Olsen. I read it last night and I tell you, I am reviewing my walk with God.

Again, let he that thinkest he standeth take heed lest he fall. For those who consider themselves holy, the Lord knoweth them that are His; may we continue to operate in His favour and like David seek after His heart. Check out the Pharisee who gave tithes etc and the sinner who couldn't even lift his eyes to God; who was most forgiven?

Nne nwannem, continually renew and review your relationship with the Most High and do not become complacent in your faith. Hapu ndi holy nweje a; so Chukwu ma ndi bu ndi nkeya.

Otito dili Chukwu