ono:

Now, I've got questions for goodguy et al. Some people get boxed into unwanted marriages by family, peers etc. And they go into such marriages with their eyes wide open. Then after a some time they come complaining to all that they're regretting ever going into such a union and want out. What do you advice such one to do?

If the marriage was sanctioned by God, despite being boxed into it, the couple should work it out by all means.

However, if the reverse is the case, they should go their seperate ways because they were not meant to be together in the first place.  Even God will be glad at this.  Remember the case of Jesus and the Samaritan woman?  (John 4:16-18)

But now, the Big Question is -- How do we know for sure if a marriage is sanctioned by God or not?  I'll leave this to the greater minds to answer.

But one thing I know for sure is this:  ". . . all things work together for good to them that love God. . ."  (Rom 8:28).

Shalom.

goodguy:

If the marriage was sanctioned by God, despite being boxed into it, the couple should work it out by all means. However, if the reverse is the case, they should go their seperate ways because they were not meant to be together in the first place.

Instictively that just doesn't sound right! I find that wrong from so many perspectives.

When a couple (XT) take their vows, Who exactly is sanctioning the marriage. We have all heard testimonies from every end of the spectrum about how people met and the degree of divine intervention. But pray tell, how many people every said God said you must marry that man or woman?

The choice/decision to marry (although I personally consider marriage the norm), is ultimatley a personal one and in itself has no eternal bearing.
If God is in it? How would "boxing" occur? The mere fact that marriage is liived out in flesh & blood means there will always be issues. The difference is that in a proper XT relationship the dealing will be Word based, Spirit led, God fearing.

The "God did not sanction this union" clause sounds suspiciously like the "God asked me to divorce for ministry purposes" opt out as espoused by some.
_{Seems I have been overly influenced by PC, man-fearing XT's to stop calling a spade a spade. I'm going back to the old ways, the narrow path.}

One last thing Goodguy, previously we kind of paused on this, but as I was meditating a question came up. I didn't want to push it as I though the discussion had been good and more or less run it's course anyway, but let me ask you this.

You previously said divorce was only permitted under the law of Moses due to the "hardness of some mens hearts". Pursuant to this and under grace, it would appear that divorce even in cases of adutery were due to that same hardness (or unforgiveness). This seems quite plausible at first glance, but thinking about it, the penalty for adultery under the law was death. Therefore "divorce" would hardly have been necessary would it? How would you factor this into your thinking. i hope I haven't missascribed/quoted you, apologies if I have and please ignore me. it's how I seem to recall things.

Regards

God bless

TV01:

The choice/decision to marry (although I personally consider marriage the norm), is ultimatley a personal one and in itself has no eternal bearing.

While this is actually true, the ultimate personal choice/decision may still depend on other factors that do not totally suit the person making the choice/decision.

TV01:

You previously said divorce was only permitted under the law of Moses due to the "hardness of some mens hearts".

The Bible said so, I only made reference to it.

TV01:

Pursuant to this and under grace, it would appear that divorce even in cases of adutery were due to that same hardness (or unforgiveness). This seems quite plausible at first glance, but thinking about it, the penalty for adultery under the law was death. Therefore "divorce" would hardly have been necessary would it? How would you factor this into your thinking.

Lev 20:10 - Penalty for Adultery is Death
Deut 24: 1 - Spouse can be divorced on the basis of Adultery

First, it is important to note that while Leviticus 20 talks categorically about the Punishments for Sins committed by the people, Deuteronomy 24 only outlines Miscellaneous Laws to govern the people.  [That's how my NIV Bible describes both].

Also, we could look at this from a rational point of view, that since the Book of Leviticus was written before the Book of Deuteronomy, there is a possibility that some laws changed over time.

That's how I factor this into my thinking, and I am open to corrections on any perceived misconception on my part.

Shalom.

goodguy:

Lev 20:10 - Penalty for Adultery is Death
Deut 24: 1 - Spouse can be divorced on the basis of Adultery

The Leviticus verse most certainly refers to the law regards adultery, but the one from Deuteronomy does not. That is the addendum which specifically captures the "hardness of heart" condition of some men.

So would we not conclude that adultery is still grounds for divorce, and cross-testament at that?

goodguy:

If the marriage was sanctioned by God, despite being boxed into it, the couple should work it out by all means.However, if the reverse is the case, they should go their seperate ways because they were not meant to be together in the first place. Even God will be glad at this. Remember the case of Jesus and the Samaritan woman? (John 4:16-18)

Could you please expound more on this portion you posted previously. Earlier in the thread, you seemed to be insistent that divorce (even in the case of adultery is not permitted). You then appear to be saying thet "if the marriage was not sanctioned by God", it is. I'd appreciate your reconciling what appear to be divergent positions. Also, I'd really appreciate a fuller expatiation regards your take on the "Samaritan woman by the well", as you seem top be suggesting that the Lord was endorsing seperation/divorce?

Thanks again.

God bless

Yes He does.

God's word does not allow divorce in any aspect.

Therefore shall a man leave his mother and be joined to his wife and they two shall be one flesh.
Divorce is a great sin before God. It leads to self destruction and judgment.
We are not indulge in divorce, it is irresponsibility, it's not right.

We are to live as one, Husband and Wife. We are to love eachother even as Christ loves the church.

Marriages should not be seen as a means of battering, making money or something else. It is a sacred thing and must be kept holy.

If God wanted dovorce He wouldn't have allowed marriage that is why he made Eve for Adam.

Christ died on the cross of calvary for us and through this has broken every curse including the curse of divorce.

Lets live in peace and harmony, trust and love.

Yes He does.

prove it.

God's word does not allow divorce.

goodguy:

If the marriage was sanctioned by God, despite being boxed into it, the couple should work it out by all means.

However, if the reverse is the case, they should go their seperate ways because they were not meant to be together in the first place.  Even God will be glad at this.  Remember the case of Jesus and the Samaritan woman?  (John 4:16-18)

But now, the Big Question is -- How do we know for sure if a marriage is sanctioned by God or not?  I'll leave this to the greater minds to answer.

But one thing I know for sure is this:  ". . . all things work together for good to them that love God. . ."  (Rom 8:28).

Shalom.

More rubbish from the Orthodox jeuvenile of the dead letter church. No one should be "boxed into" marrying anyone else under any circumstance. Marriage is a free will agreement.

"Meant to be together" is an immature notion and a product of a youthful imagination.

The mature way to approach marriage is that when you see someone you believe you can spend the rest of your life with according to what your looking for, once it's mutual, you seek God's blessing and move into the marriage agreement.

It's up to you and your walk with Christ to know if he says, if you marry this person you will be happy or not.

But he will never tell you NOT to marry someone. He never interferes with your free will. In some rare cases, men have gotten clear word from God that this woman is going to be your wife. I met someone like that, and even though they are married, they still have challenges and problems like any other couple.

TV01:

The Leviticus verse most certainly refers to the law regards adultery, but the one from Deuteronomy does not. That is the addendum which specifically captures the "hardness of heart" condition of some men.

So would we not conclude that adultery is still grounds for divorce, and cross-testament at that?

I think there are some important things you may be missing out here.

Note that the Leviticus verse refers to the punishment for the sins of both parties if found guilty of Adultery.  Punishment there, is the penalty inflicted for the offense of both parties.  But the Deuteronomy verse talks about the Laws given to govern the people, of which one of them is the Law concerning Divorce.  Note that in this case, the divorce is even one-sided, that is, only the man is allowed to divorce, not the other way round.

TV01:

Could you please expound more on this portion you posted previously. Earlier in the thread, you seemed to be insistent that divorce (even in the case of adultery is not permitted). You then appear to be saying thet "if the marriage was not sanctioned by God", it is. I'd appreciate your reconciling what appear to be divergent positions.

I guess I should have cleared this up earlier.  Anyway, my stance on this issue of divorce has been concerning the Believers.  Since a true believer is expected to have the Spirit of God for guidance in everything he/she does, that means whomever he/she chooses to marry is indeed the right person.  (That's why I've been emphasizing on "marriages based on proper foundation", "marriages with God's consent", etc).  Therefore, if they eventually get married and begin to have problems, they should not divorce under any circumstances because once a man and his wife are joined together by God, they are now ONE flesh (Mark 10:7-, and are meant to be together forever (Mark 10:9).

But as for the marriages not sanctioned by God, would the divorce even mean anything at all to God?  Afterall, it didn't have His consent in the first place.

TV01:

Also, I'd really appreciate a fuller expatiation regards your take on the "Samaritan woman by the well", as you seem top be suggesting that the Lord was endorsing seperation/divorce?

Thanks again.

God bless

I was using it to emphasize my point about couples that are not meant to be together in the first place.  But then, what do you really think Jesus was insinuating by making her realise that she was not supposed to be with the person she was with at that moment?  That seems to me like He was asking her to leave the marriage.  Or maybe I'm wrong?

trini_girl:

No one should be "boxed into" marrying anyone else under any circumstance.

I agree.  But the question posed at us was in the "What if" format.  No one here is in support of people being boxed into marriages.

trini_girl:

"Meant to be together" is an immature notion and a product of a youthful imagination.

I wouldn't think so.  Otherwise, why do you think Jesus told the Samaritan woman that her present man she was with is not even her husband?  Don't you think it's more like a "Both of you are not meant to be together" statement?  Note that Jesus didn't even call him her husband.  He simply referred to Him as "the one whom you now have".

Hi Goodguy, Thanks for taking the time to post, I can see you are besieged  .

I won't bother pursuing the point about the law, as I think we can progress without it. I have quite a few points of difference with regard to your stated positions.

goodguy:

I guess I should have cleared this up earlier.  Anyway, my stance on this issue of divorce has been concerning the Believers.  Since a true believer is expected to have the Spirit of God for guidance in everything he/she does, that means whomever he/she chooses to marry is indeed the right person.  (That's why I've been emphasizing on "marriages based on proper foundation", "marriages with God's consent", etc).  Therefore, if they eventually get married and begin to have problems, they should not divorce under any circumstances because once a man and his wife are joined together by God, they are now ONE flesh (Mark 10:7-, and are meant to be together forever (Mark 10:9).

I believe we are all discussing this in relation to being professing XTians. However, in a universal sense, marriage in itself has Gods sanction. The institution/covenant/sacremant _{(take your pick)} of marriage was given to man before religion and before the law. One can consider it "creational". It is in and of itself a Godly estate.

That's not to say that there isn't a XTian way to go about it. The blessing of XTity is to marry with His guidance, and to work out your union with His grace. Lots of believers fail to do this, that is not an excuse to opt out using worldly notions like "meant to be together" or scricturally flawed ones like " it was without Gods consent". Not to mention plain blasphemous ones like "God's calling on my life as a pastor means I have to leave my wife  " (TayoD  are you listening?)

The logical conclusion of your position is that any marriage covenanted outside XTianity is (a) not of God (b) invalid if one or both partner s become XTians. Again this is wrong as the Bible says not to leave the unbelievers if they are willing to remain married (1 Corinthians 7:12).

Being that marriage is in the flesh, there will always be problems. Again, the Bible states exactly that (1 Corinthians 7:28). And being in the flesh, one has to apply sound XT judgment in one's choice of spouse. The proper foundation is to understand the essence/import of marriage. To God, to society, to family and to the couple and then to commit to it. All this being done via committal to God. Being XT means we have a higher wisdom available to us with which to understand, address and resolve any problems.

I'm sorry, I for one see myriad flaws in that particular statement no matter how I look at it. You may choose to disagree or shed more light on how you reached your conclusions.

goodguy:

But as for the marriages not sanctioned by God, would the divorce even mean anything at all to God?  Afterall, it didn't have His consent in the first place.

I repeat, marriage already has Gods imprimatur. God has given us this already. The only marriages not sanctioned would be those that are not lawful for some reason. Primarily the fact that one of the parties was already betrothed/married to someone else, as the marriage union is till death do part. As marriage is a universal given, God's hatred of divorce is likewise universal.

There's a religion that teaches something akin to that and it's not XTianity. I don't want to digress, but I've noted your belief that another religion can be reconciled with XTianity at least in terms of their Deity. Not so, that may go someway to explaining the error here.

goodguy:

I was using it to emphasize my point about couples that are not meant to be together in the first place.  But then, what do you really think Jesus was insinuating by making her realise that she was not supposed to be with the person she was with at that moment?  That seems to me like He was asking her to leave the marriage.  Or maybe I'm wrong?

I have stated that I don't see scripturally (or agree with) the "meant to be together notion".

She was not supposed to be with the person she was with at the moment as she was legally married to another.

He wasn't so much asking her to leave it, as to point out that legally she couldn't be in it. It was a sinful/adulterous union.

There are at least two examples of this in scripture.

1. Bathsheba could not become Davids wife until Uriah was dead. Even then, the Bible alludes to the initial illicitness of that relationship by the reference in Matthew 1:6. Also pertinent to note, is that when Michal was forcibly taken from David and given to another man, he took her back, no shaking, she was his wife.

2. Herod took Herodias his brother Philips wife. This was unlawful and JTB was unambiguous in telling him so.

goodguy:

Or maybe I'm wrong?

I would say so, but let us allow scripture to drive this discussion, with a willinglness to hear God's truth. You have really helped me crystalise my thoughts on quite a few aspects of this issue. not to say that I have attained.

Thanks again for responding.

God bless

_{**smiles approvingly at goodguy and TV**} 

I think TV has covered it.

What else can I say?

May God continue to increase your wisdom and understanding, bro.

God bless you too.

@all

There is no Divorce once you are married correctly.

To the options in the introduction to this question or topic of divorce, none of the above.

Jesus made reference to the Old Testament in the Matthew Gospel, that for adultery, stoning to death was the penalty.
Jesus said that a man can divorce his wife on grounds of fornication, that is, if she is not a virgin. But if one marries her that is divorced or put away commits adultery. So you see, there is no grounds for divorce, in essence.

Moses allowed divorce for the hardness of their heart, for every cause. This refers to petty issues like nagging. Moses wrote a bill of divorcement so that she cannot go away empty handed. She must be provided when she leaves.

In the book of Corinthians, a man or woman can leave the matrimonial home, but cannot marry again until the spouse dies. In Malachi, God hates divorce.

Jesus fulfills the law and teaches us the Beatitudes or attitudes to be and the Sermon on the Mount for christian conduct. To deal with petty issues like nagging? we must love our enemies, forgive, turn the other cheek etc,

So divorce is not scriptural. If one can't live with one, can he or she lives with another? Can't be.

Bump!

The word of God is clear on the subject of divorce.(only in the case of adultery by man or woman),and if the man is a minister he must step down from the pulpit,

goodguy: There are actually no grounds for divorce, Biblically.

I believe every Christian bases their justification of divorce on Matt 5:32.  But a proper scrutiny of that text shows that Jesus was actually not justifying divorce, but was simply against adultery. 

"But I say unto you, That whosoever shall put away his wife, saving for the cause of fornication, causeth her to commit adultery: and whosoever shall marry her that is divorced committeth adultery."  (Matt 5:32, KJV)

"But I say to you that every one who divorces his wife, except on the ground of unchastity, makes her an adulteress; and whoever marries a divorced woman commits adultery."  (Matt 5:32, RSV)

Those underlined words are what confuse people, thereby making them interprete the verse completely out of context.

Before I try explaining what Jesus meant here, note that adultery has always been frowned upon, and divorce allowed even right from the days of Moses (Deut 24:1); and Jesus himself acknowledged that in verse 31 of that text.

But in verse 32, it does seem like Jesus was 'permitting' divorce (not commanding it though) if one partner is caught in the act of adultery.  But was he really?  We'll find out now.

Since Jesus himself frowns on adultery (Matt 5:27-28), it therefore implies that his message actually is (paraphrasing now):

"Every one who divorces his wife, makes her an adulteress and whoever marries a divorced woman commits adultery.  You only become innocent of this offense (. . of making someone else commit sin), if and only if it was on the grounds of adultery that you divorced her, afterall, she was already committing the sin itself before you left her anyway."

Here, Jesus is saying that the only situation in which divorce and remarriage are possible, without breaking the seventh commandment, is when it has already been broken by some serious sexual sin.  Clearly, he was against adultery, and adultery alone, and was in no way advocating divorce.

This is a correction to the widely misinterpreted statement of Jesus that "one is free to divorce if one finds one's partner guilty of adultery".  No, this is not what Jesus was saying.  If Jesus actually meant this, then he would be contradicting himself in Mark 10:2-6,9:

"And the Pharisees came to him, and asked him, Is it lawful for a man to put away his wife? tempting him.  And he answered and said unto them, What did Moses command you?  And they said, Moses suffered to write a bill of divorcement, and to put her away.  And Jesus answered and said unto them, For the hardness of your heart he wrote you this precept.  But from the beginning of the creation God made them male and female. . . What therefore God hath joined together, let not man put asunder."

The two links below explain my position better.

http://www.jesus-is-savior.com/Family/Marriage/grounds.htm
http://www.pbcc.org/sermons/vanderet/1090.html

I am open to corrections anyway.

well said!