About The Idea Of Heaven And Eternal Bliss - Religion - Nairaland
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| About The Idea Of Heaven And Eternal Bliss by johnydon22(m): 11:59am On Aug 07, 2017 |
At a point here on nairaland i had a signature on which states; If a perfect God with the ability to create a perfect world exists and wants you to be in a perfect world, you would have been in a perfect world, there wouldn't be a need for such bizarre cruel test results determined by virtue of all knowledge I would like you to mull over this and my proceeding points in this write-up, i aim to invoke deep thoughts about our beliefs and hopes. In very many religions of the world there are concepts of paradise, heaven, valhalla. A supposedly perfect world of eternal bliss, sinless and without any atom of corruption where you may end up to live an infinite life of joy, happiness and plenty. But there is a bizarre twist to this idea, this is where it gets strange. "You must live and die first before it can be determined if you are qualified to gain this eternal bliss" If we run our thoughts backwards in time, try to picture the state we were before birth then one can be exposed the bizarreness and cruelty of such unnecessary tests. We didn't exist - There were two choices before God, create these beings into a perfect world or create them into an imperfect world to test them over nothing. If there is a perfect God with the ability to make a perfect world and this perfect God wants you to be in a perfect world, he would have pulled you directly from in-existence into this perfect world. You didn't exist, so what exactly was the need for the test when you could be created exactly where God wills? So if heaven is perfect at last, and everyone in heaven will turn out perfect then this means God is fully capable of creating a perfect world with perfect beings in it, which now begs the question "Why didn't God create that perfect world in the first place?" Some persons that i know and talked about this issue with gave the answer that God initially created this world to be perfect but man's action ruined God's perfect plan. It is amazing how the perfect plan of an all knowing and all powerful being can be thwarted by tiny man. This answer calls into question the very purity of heaven, if man could ruin God's perfect world, what would change when man is now in heaven? won't man also be able to ruin that too? If you say that man cannot ruin heaven, the next question becomes - Why was man able to ruin this world but will be unable to ruin the next? Take again as a second instance the story of Lucifer in Christian mythology, he was once an angel of God, one of Gods sons and was the bringer of light, a high ranked angel but became corrupt of his own essence, envied God's position and rebelled against God thus culminating to heavenly civil war that led to him being cast out of heaven alongside his followers. Even heavenly beings in as this story goes are not immune to corruption, they are just as man still vulnerable to impurity and sin. What will God do differently in paradise to avoid the whole saga repeating itself all over again and thus it keeps going? cc. hahn, uyildredi, coolusername, plaetton, frank317 28 Likes 12 Shares |
| Re: About The Idea Of Heaven And Eternal Bliss by DeSepiero(m): 1:52pm On Aug 07, 2017 |
To the religious folks who would dare to think, just a very little bit devoid of religious sentiments, this is food for thought. Big time! 12 Likes 3 Shares |
| Re: About The Idea Of Heaven And Eternal Bliss by Martinez19(m): 1:53pm On Aug 07, 2017 |
The concepts of religion crumbles when passed through critical thinking, reasoning, logic, common sense and science. When people tell me that the things and ways of God are too hard to understand, I ask them how the authors of the bible understood the ways of God. I also ask that if a human is not thinking logically, critically, reasonably and respects evidence, how else will he know who is deceiving him or not? How else will he know the truth? Johnydon22, your questions are sufficient to debunk the claims of religious paradises. The problem is that if christians will focus on the topic and answer the questions. Perhaps they might attack the poster himself. 14 Likes 3 Shares |
| Re: About The Idea Of Heaven And Eternal Bliss by Martinez19(m): 2:32pm On Aug 07, 2017 |
Why christians skip faith shaking thread is something I don't understand. Atheists don't run from challenges or contests. 3 Likes 3 Shares |
| Re: About The Idea Of Heaven And Eternal Bliss by johnydon22(m): 2:43pm On Aug 07, 2017 |
Martinez19: Hahahahahaha I don't believe in taunting people anymore. Just a discussion would suffice 2 Likes 1 Share |
| Re: About The Idea Of Heaven And Eternal Bliss by Martinez19(m): 3:09pm On Aug 07, 2017 |
johnydon22:I doubt christians would engage in a meaningful discussion. They come their dogma trying to convince you during a discussion. |
| Re: About The Idea Of Heaven And Eternal Bliss by Nobody: 3:44pm On Aug 07, 2017 |
The truth is that true perfection cannot exist ,and that throws Every religion with its dogmas into question Making them wrong about the concept of life and existence 3 Likes 1 Share |
| Re: About The Idea Of Heaven And Eternal Bliss by DoctorAlien(m): 4:01pm On Aug 07, 2017 |
"You must live and die first before it can be determined if you are qualified to gain this eternal bliss" If we run our thoughts backwards in time, try to picture the state we were before birth then one can be exposed the bizarreness and cruelty of such unnecessary tests. We didn't exist - There were two choices before God, create these beings into a perfect world or create them into an imperfect world to test them over nothing. If there is a perfect God with the ability to make a perfect world and this perfect God wants you to be in a perfect world, he would have pulled you directly from in-existence into this perfect world. You didn't exist, so what exactly was the need for the test when you could be created exactly where God wills? For you to be a man, you must be born of man, and live on earth. Being created in any other world means you're no longer man. That was why Jesus had to be born of a woman. |
| Re: About The Idea Of Heaven And Eternal Bliss by johnydon22(m): 4:07pm On Aug 07, 2017 |
Martinez19:You may also try to convince me during a discussion, that is totally allowed. in what way do we grow if we do not learn? 1 Like 1 Share |
| Re: About The Idea Of Heaven And Eternal Bliss by johnydon22(m): 4:08pm On Aug 07, 2017 |
DoctorAlien: So when you get to this unman stage, you become incorruptible? You become an approximation of a perfect being? 2 Likes 1 Share |
| Re: About The Idea Of Heaven And Eternal Bliss by DoctorAlien(m): 4:09pm On Aug 07, 2017 |
So if heaven is perfect at last, and everyone in heaven will turn out perfect then this means God is fully capable of creating a perfect world with perfect beings in it, which now begs the question "Why didn't God create that perfect world in the first place?" This is where you miss it. Why do you think everybody won't be in Heaven? It is because only those who have cultivated a character of holiness would be able to dwell in Heaven's sinless company(Heb. 12:14). Heaven is for only those who have shown on earth that come what may, they would never disobey GOD. These loved GOD(Jn. 14:15) to the extent that they would die rather than disobey GOD(Rev. 12:11). Can't you see that even in Heaven, nothing would make them disobey GOD, if they were willing to give up their lives on earth rather than disobey GOD? |
| Re: About The Idea Of Heaven And Eternal Bliss by johnydon22(m): 4:09pm On Aug 07, 2017 |
stephenmorris: Only a loop can be perfect. A loop in the sense that it is wrapped around itself and this perfection is limited in a certain way. 1 Like 1 Share |
| Re: About The Idea Of Heaven And Eternal Bliss by DeSepiero(m): 4:10pm On Aug 07, 2017 |
Martinez19: I know a handful of them on this forum that would discuss but they're apparently too delusional and egoistic to admit whenever the flaws of their faith is put to them. 3 Likes 1 Share |
| Re: About The Idea Of Heaven And Eternal Bliss by DoctorAlien(m): 4:12pm On Aug 07, 2017 |
It is amazing how the perfect plan of an all knowing and all How can man's disobedience call into question Heaven's purity? That's meaningless. Man could choose to sin because he was created with freewill, just like angels. |
| Re: About The Idea Of Heaven And Eternal Bliss by johnydon22(m): 4:17pm On Aug 07, 2017 |
DoctorAlien:I don't get this line brother, the first and last sentences seem to contradict by implication, mind reviewing?
this is exactly what my point was hitting: we could still love God if he created us directly into the promised perfect world... 4 Likes 2 Shares |
| Re: About The Idea Of Heaven And Eternal Bliss by DoctorAlien(m): 4:18pm On Aug 07, 2017 |
johnydon22: In heaven we would still be men, okay?(Rev. 21:3). GOD actually values man more than angels(Jn. 3:16). Jesus Christ will, throughout eternity, bear the form of man. That's a privilege. GOD created man in His own image, but He did not create angels in His own image. It's a privilege to be a man. And I would rather be a man, than be an angel. Man is the crown of GOD's creation. Heaven would simply be a place of restoring man to his original position, and only then can we begin to know the glorious destiny which GOD prepared for man. |
| Re: About The Idea Of Heaven And Eternal Bliss by johnydon22(m): 4:19pm On Aug 07, 2017 |
DoctorAlien: And this further buttresses my point, if the earth was perfectly done in the first place and man's fall corrupted it - Man's fall due to his freewill as you have put it here. What then stops man from exercising this freewill when he gets to the promised paradise? Wouldn't that still lead man to sin/fall/disobey and thus we are back to where we started once more? 14 Likes 2 Shares |
| Re: About The Idea Of Heaven And Eternal Bliss by johnydon22(m): 4:21pm On Aug 07, 2017 |
DoctorAlien: Good so which then brings the final question of the article into light; How then could man avoid being man in heaven, how will man not fall/sin/disobey again in this paradise? what will God do differently in paradise to avoid the whole saga repeating itself all over again and thus it keeps going? 1 Like 1 Share |
| Re: About The Idea Of Heaven And Eternal Bliss by DoctorAlien(m): 4:21pm On Aug 07, 2017 |
johnydon22: How could you be a man without being born of men? You begin to wonder, why didn't GOD create 7 billion people on earth? It is because He has designed for our first parents to be the parents of all men. GOD created our first parents, and commanded them to procreate. Creating you directly into Heaven means you'd be an angel or any other being, but not a man. Don't you get it? |
| Re: About The Idea Of Heaven And Eternal Bliss by DoctorAlien(m): 4:26pm On Aug 07, 2017 |
johnydon22: It is not about what GOD would do in heaven; it is about what the dwellers in Heaven have done while they were on earth. They had cultivated a character of holiness and obedience to GOD while they were on earth. The fact that even death, which is the ultimate price, could not change their character of obedience to GOD(Rev. 12:11) tells you that such a character is permanent, and they would dwell with it forever. So, Heaven is safe, and sin will never arise again(Nahum 1:9). |
| Re: About The Idea Of Heaven And Eternal Bliss by johnydon22(m): 4:30pm On Aug 07, 2017 |
DoctorAlien: I get it perfectly well my brother and that still remains my point, If we are to end up in a perfect world for eternity, why weren't we (our ancestors) however you chose for it to be done created in a perfect world? is God incapable of creating a perfect world? If such blissful world is possible, why aren't we there? why do we need to be tested in order to gain a perfect world? And if this perfect world was possible, why weren't it the first port of creation if God had the intention of putting man in such a world? 10 Likes 2 Shares |
| Re: About The Idea Of Heaven And Eternal Bliss by johnydon22(m): 4:36pm On Aug 07, 2017 |
DoctorAlien: A permanent character in freewill, that is highly unlikely. If us as beings in heaven can be sinless then it means that perfection of beings is attainable therefore creatable - God could have easily made man in that innate state of holiness that is permanent. But if man goes up to heaven as man fully with freewill, how so can man not still sin/disobey/fall as Adam or Lucifer did 11 Likes 2 Shares |
| Re: About The Idea Of Heaven And Eternal Bliss by DoctorAlien(m): 4:38pm On Aug 07, 2017 |
johnydon22: Man was created in a perfect world, but with freewill! That means that he could choose to obey or disobey GOD. Unfortunately he chose to disobey GOD. Creating man without the ability to choose voluntarily to love and obey GOD makes him a robot/machine. However, those who would be in Heaven are those who have shown that they would permanently obey GOD with their freewill, come what may.(Rev. 12:11) |
| Re: About The Idea Of Heaven And Eternal Bliss by DoctorAlien(m): 4:38pm On Aug 07, 2017 |
johnydon22: Refer to my answer above. |
| Re: About The Idea Of Heaven And Eternal Bliss by frank317: 4:52pm On Aug 07, 2017 |
johnydon22: ... and why didnt he do it in the fist place? Perhaps he is also on a learning process like humans... I mean, a trial and error thing 7 Likes 1 Share |
| Re: About The Idea Of Heaven And Eternal Bliss by DoctorAlien(m): 4:56pm On Aug 07, 2017 |
frank317: DoctorAlien: |
| Re: About The Idea Of Heaven And Eternal Bliss by Martinez19(m): 5:00pm On Aug 07, 2017 |
johnydon22:Convincing people while being open minded is allowed but convincing while being close minded to dogma is unacceptable. Christians and Muslims are never open minded. |
| Re: About The Idea Of Heaven And Eternal Bliss by Martinez19(m): 5:11pm On Aug 07, 2017 |
... god created an infinite universe and out of thousands and millions of galaxies, he chose to be concerned with a particular specie on a tiny spot.... - SAM HARRIS (paraphrased) |
| Re: About The Idea Of Heaven And Eternal Bliss by winner01(m): 5:50pm On Aug 07, 2017 |
johnydon22:I find faulty the very basics of your whole argument. The argument seems to be built on the following premises; 1. A perfect God intends to create a perfect world (To humans, perfect would mean all things Good) 2. A perfect God wants to create you (His creation) to be in a perfect good world. 3. A perfect God and a perfect good world can contain no evil (No place for “bizzare cruel tests” in a perfect good world) 4. Therefore a perfect God does not exist It’s interesting we get to pick what our Creator can/should or can not/should not do. Makes me wonder who the creator is here.  While I will not be making my points with the Bible, it is important to note the following objections: 1. Genesis 1:2 runs contrary to premise 1 above. 2. Isaiah 45:7 argues against premise 2 3. The chapter of Job in its entirety, argues against premise 3 According to the Christian worldview, God created a perfect world (earth), but did not create man in a perfect world (earth). The space between genesis 1:1 and 1:2 explains this clearly. The earlier verse speaks of God creating a perfect earth, the latter verse speaks of “tohu” which means wasteness and “bohu” which means emptiness. Today, it is generally referred to as “formless” and “void”. What would make the Almighty God’s perfect creation this way, we are not told but thankfully it is briefly mentioned in Isaiah 14 and Ezekiel 28:12-19. johnydon22: A place called paradise seems to be unique to almost every generation of humanity, and why wouldn’t it be? Every soul seems to longs for eternity even if a few deny it. Here’s what the ex-atheist writer C. S. Lewis had to say on this topic. It’s popularly called “the argument from joy”. www.nairaland.com/attachments/5777292_img7054_jpegfbb49b0f3da99592ae42ab0a4a00026b www.nairaland.com/attachments/5777293_img7053_jpegf5c998b3ce120689f66a6eb53adcdebe Seems to me like a rational decision. johnydon22:The only strange I see here is the assertion above, especially with respect to the Christian worldview. "I eagerly expect and hope that I will in no way be ashamed, but will have complete boldness, so that now as always Christ will be exalted in my body, whether by life or by death. For to me, to live is Christ, and to die is gain. But if I go on living in the body, this will mean fruitful labor for me. So what shall I choose? I do not know..." - Apostle Paul It seems to me that every Christian hopes to live and die in Christ. This is why death is usually referred to by Christians as a transition into glory. We do not have to wait till death to qualify. Elijah didn’t have to wait for instance. johnydon22:www.nairaland.com/attachments/5777298_img7032_jpeg27fd8e3d9196a592e5b40908f0eeff03 According to the Christian worldview, this is inaccurate. 1. The preexistence of the human soul is well argued in many christian circles 2. As earlier explained, God created a perfect world but humans were not created into a world that still retained this initially perfect state(to humans, perfect would mean all good). A dictionary defines per·fect-ˈpərfikt/ having all the required or desirable elements, qualities, or characteristics; as good as it is possible to be. 3. God could easily create robotic beings that would obey His every command, completely unaware of his environment. But God chose to create beings that could freely choose to obey, disobey or even question his command. This is regarded as the single most basic God-given right of every human. Freewill. It would eventually lead to the fall of man. Note: Man could never be affected or “infected” any contrary force, except through this freedom to choose. Amos 3:3 4. The fall of man spelt destruction but God would later find a way to redeem man. As far as I know, in the things of God, rules are meant to be obeyed. Failure to do so comes with its consequences. Humans have also been striving to imitate this basic model especially in a bid to sustain a sane community. johnydon22:A test of loyality seems to be the only proof that a being has the ability to freely live. It’s the only proof of free will. In Yoruba land for instance, those who pass the test of loyalty in apprenticeship are celebrated in a function popularly called “FREEDOM”. Loyalty seems to be a very important determinant in the topic of freedom. johnydon22:Of course God did. You claim to be ex-christian c’mon. it’s in Genesis 1:1. God created the heavens and the earth. Even by human standards, you can’t curb the creative power of man. How much more mans Creator. johnydon22: Man’s action did not ruin God’s perfect world, but rather God’s will for man. Man is not tiny to God. That little spec of dust has a special place in God a while we are told in Psalm 8:4-8. Regrettably, man can choose to accept or reject God’s love. johnydon22:As earlier explained, Man could not ruin a perfect world. As far as I know, a few things will change in heaven. 1. Revelation 21:4 reveals that there is unlikely to be evil in heaven. Man will live as robots, knowing only good. 2. Revelation 12:8 concedes that is no place for evil in heaven. 3. There will be neither freewill nor the abuse of it. "I think it will be appropriate for those who intend to criticize the beliefs of others, to take some time to get more knowledge on what they wish to criticize. Majority of believers especially in this part of the world are neither well groomed in Christian apologetics nor the rational defense of the gospel. It's laughable when's non-believers criticize a belief based on the ideas they once had about their former beliefs without realizing that they sound exactly like the people they wish to criticize." I believe the video below will give us an insight on the fall of man. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Eo1qvXY7S8M Bless you. 6 Likes 2 Shares |
| Re: About The Idea Of Heaven And Eternal Bliss by frank317: 6:14pm On Aug 07, 2017 |
DoctorAlien: Lol... You can pretend or lie just to prove a point that we know is not reasonable but the fact remains that we have seen so called Christians, even bornagains repent, backslide and repent again. None, I mean no human has shown that he can permanently obey God. Even humans who will make heaven are those who will be lucky not to have backslided or who are not caught up in sin by the time rapture takes place. So if Christians can backslide on earth why cant they backslide in heaven? 1 Like |
| Re: About The Idea Of Heaven And Eternal Bliss by winner01(m): 6:50pm On Aug 07, 2017 |
Martinez19:is this what you believe? |
| Re: About The Idea Of Heaven And Eternal Bliss by winner01(m): 6:53pm On Aug 07, 2017 |
johnydon22:And because God did not make man in the state in which we feel man should be made, then it makes God non-existent. Great logic.  |
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