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MSc In UK Versus N183k Job Offer: Advice Please - Career (6) - Nairaland

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Re: MSc In UK Versus N183k Job Offer: Advice Please by haddernyke: 4:03pm On Sep 08
I left a Naija job of 275k monthly in 2014 for UK, I did a MSc with the same PTDF scholarship, I have no regret today. But my story is different from yours, as a medical doctor it was very easy for me to stay back and work in UK. Remember if you don't let go of what you have you might not get what you want. Go for your MSc, aim for a PhD and the rest would be stories. I wish you all the best.

2 Likes

Re: MSc In UK Versus N183k Job Offer: Advice Please by twoMcfemad: 4:12pm On Sep 08
DanXplore:
Thanks to you all, i have seen your mentions but could not reply all. You guys are the best!

I have decided to take the scholarship offer.

I hope that this thread would assist someone in future if faced with such 'good' dilemma.

one love
.

Good decision and Best Wishes.
Let nairalanders know when you resign at ur present place of work so that they can apply to fill your vacuum. There are lots of unemployed graduates at the Jobs/Vacancies section.

3 Likes

Re: MSc In UK Versus N183k Job Offer: Advice Please by julietm123: 4:19pm On Sep 08
OK, I wish him all the best, whatever he decides.
KappaJ1:


Did you forget that this is a scholarship worth more than 15m and you want to forgo it for a 183k a month job? Is the job guaranteed to be there forever? Can it still meet his needs in the next 5 years? Did you think about his chance of getting a better opportunity after his studies or returning to the job he left? Everybody's case can't be like your friend's.
I left my banking job for the same PTDF scholarship and I was better off afterwards.
Re: MSc In UK Versus N183k Job Offer: Advice Please by niyogeol(m): 4:20pm On Sep 08
Op, congratulations on this feat. It is not easy getting PTDF scholarship, especially on merit.

Just to let you know, nothing is certain in life. In short, nothing is guaranteed! This whole decision is yours to make. Opinions here can shape it a little though.

PTDF scholarship is arguably one of the best scholarship in the world with what is on offer. So finance should not be a concern to you. The career path you want is another thing that should inform whatever decision you reach. MSc from the UK no doubt will add value to you, but how soon is what I don't know/can't tell.

The angle I want you to look at it from is this: what will happen if your appointment is terminated on resuming at your desk in the office on a good day? With the present economic situation in the country, #183,000 no doubt is a fair take home. Note - this sum is what you can earn in about 10 days while working part time during your studies in the UK, aside the stipend you get from PTDF monthly. You can save up money and move to other countries. It is way easier moving around in developed countries; than from an underdeveloped one.

I will suggest you try out the study leave without pay with your present employer. If it works, its a win - win situation for you, if it doesn't, then brace up for the move. Don't compare yourself with others too because not everyone return to Nigeria after their studies. Some get jobs, while others don't get. Ori ya to so ori.

Let the thing that pushed you to applying for the scholarship in the first place finish the job it started.

Regards.

3 Likes 1 Share

Re: MSc In UK Versus N183k Job Offer: Advice Please by Mrbigman1(m): 4:21pm On Sep 08
DanXplore:


Lol! That was harsh,
But the msg was received nevertheless.

Thanks!

Ppl who dnt ve passport will tell u to stay back or ppl who ve never seen an airplane.

But one thing for sure is dat ur can never regret leaving nigeria.

U meat ppl over dia, on ur return, u ve applied for work in canny or aussie and I bet u, u'd regret being a Nigerian
Re: MSc In UK Versus N183k Job Offer: Advice Please by Pidgin2(f): 4:43pm On Sep 08
haddernyke:
I left a Naija job of 275k monthly in 2014 for UK, I did a MSc with the same PTDF scholarship, I have no regret today. But my story is different from yours, as a medical doctor it was very easy for me to stay back and work in UK. Remember if you don't let go of what you have you might not get what you want. Go for your MSc, aim for a PhD and the rest would be stories. I wish you all the best.

Why are you here?
Re: MSc In UK Versus N183k Job Offer: Advice Please by Pidgin2(f): 4:45pm On Sep 08
Mrbigman1:


Ppl who dnt ve passport will tell u to stay back or ppl who ve never seen an airplane.

But one thing for sure is dat ur can never regret leaving nigeria.


U meat ppl over dia, on ur return, u ve applied for work in canny or aussie and I bet u, u'd regret being a Nigerian

Who told you this?
Re: MSc In UK Versus N183k Job Offer: Advice Please by Gamesmart: 4:45pm On Sep 08
DanXplore:
Please, i could use some career advice from great nairalanders. Please tag monikers that you think would be of great help, as i am at a crucial point in my career.

I am a graduate of chemcal engineering but for 2years now, have not gotten any engineering related job. The only job i got was at KPMG (audit), which i resigned after 3 months due to some personal reasons. I am currently an Area Sales Rep with a poultry feed production company that pays 183k per month (net take home after tax and other necessary deductions), though i could use up to 20 to 25k to fuel my car monthly.
Now, i just got a PTDF scholarship offer to study Advanced process integration and design in UK but not really sure if it is worth ditching my current job for it.

I am not very confident about securing a job once i finish msc because only a handful of opportunities come for chemical engineers. more also,UK rarely retains Nigerians.

Please what are your advices, especially from those who have done Msc in Uk.

I need your advices, i dont want to make a costly mistake.


Enquire from PTDF if they are willing to pay for the scholarship in another country like Holland or Sweden, where it is cheaper and easier for you to stay behind and appply for jobs, in case you can't get one in Nigeria.
Re: MSc In UK Versus N183k Job Offer: Advice Please by confluence: 4:54pm On Sep 08
Please go for the Msc programme, I sponsor my younger brother for an Msc programme in Ireland two years ago, he just rounded up few weeks ago, it was not funny because he was on a #60,000 job here in Nigeria before he left, it was not easy at all because I dispose off a property , Today he got two job offer ranging from €29,000 to €34,000 with experience on the job he could easily move around for better offer,
Please pray along for God's direction

4 Likes

Re: MSc In UK Versus N183k Job Offer: Advice Please by being(m): 5:35pm On Sep 08
Pls your decision analysis should not rest on the point view that just because the offer is not easy to get, you should take it.

To me it's very clear d odds are 70% against the ptdf UK masters!!

A lot of this stems from oil price crash.
Do you know that at a point in time ptdf scholars were not receiving regular stipends from ptdf?

U already know you have to come back for the two reasons of ptdf bond and UK labor policy. - so question is would you get a job on coming back? - in dose days (up to 2013) you come back from UK oil related msc, u get job with Halliburton, shell or at least some design firm or small drilling company. cos money was flowing very well at a pressure head of $120+ and as such there were a lot of opportunities and new projects.
At a head of $50 , not so many new job vacancies exist. Mobil recruited last for engr trainees in 2012. Total plc a very long while ago. Haliburton, schlum and chevron haven't recruited since 2013.
Now ur course is just one year its highly risky to think things would change drastically in a year.

You might really be passionate about chemical Engr. but I guess u need to find another interest that is more practicable in our current Nigerian society.

Another option if u r willing to become a foreigner is to go to Canada and some other ice freezing countries and do MS etc..

Another workable option is to go on a year's leave at your work place or determine if you can easily get jobs along your current line when you come back. (for sales , it should be) - this is in case you are not part of the lucky few that scale through shell recruitment day then. (Shell still recruits few trainees each year).

1 Like

Re: MSc In UK Versus N183k Job Offer: Advice Please by Erums(m): 5:43pm On Sep 08
234ng44uk:


Free educational advancement my foot. Go to this same UK, most of your classmates at postgraduate level will be international students. Majority of locals go to college or at 1st degree at best. What are you talking about?
Re: MSc In UK Versus N183k Job Offer: Advice Please by jackomagnus: 6:35pm On Sep 08
[fquote author=DanXplore post=60237853]Please, i could use some career advice from great nairalanders. Please tag monikers that you think would be of great help, as i am at a crucial point in my career.

I am a graduate of chemcal engineering but for 2years now, have not gotten any engineering related job. The only job i got was at KPMG (audit), which i resigned after 3 months due to some personal reasons. I am currently an Area Sales Rep with a poultry feed production company that pays 183k per month (net take home after tax and other necessary deductions), though i could use up to 20 to 25k to fuel my car monthly.
Now, i just got a PTDF scholarship offer to study Advanced process integration and design in UK but not really sure if it is worth ditching my current job for it.

I am not very confident about securing a job once i finish msc because only a handful of opportunities come for chemical engineers. more also,UK rarely retains Nigerians.

Please what are your advices, especially from those who have done Msc in Uk.

I need your advices, i dont want to make a costly mistake.

[/quote]
Re: MSc In UK Versus N183k Job Offer: Advice Please by Genea(f): 6:59pm On Sep 08
DanXplore:
Please, i could use some career advice from great nairalanders. Please tag monikers that you think would be of great help, as i am at a crucial point in my career.

I am a graduate of chemcal engineering but for 2years now, have not gotten any engineering related job. The only job i got was at KPMG (audit), which i resigned after 3 months due to some personal reasons. I am currently an Area Sales Rep with a poultry feed production company that pays 183k per month (net take home after tax and other necessary deductions), though i could use up to 20 to 25k to fuel my car monthly.
Now, i just got a PTDF scholarship offer to study Advanced process integration and design in UK but not really sure if it is worth ditching my current job for it.

I am not very confident about securing a job once i finish msc because only a handful of opportunities come for chemical engineers. more also,UK rarely retains Nigerians.

Please what are your advices, especially from those who have done Msc in Uk.

I need your advices, i dont want to make a costly mistake.

I would give you my very candid advice.. Go for that masters, God that brought you this job would give you another.. What f you take the job and the worst happens? Sweetie, take that scholarship, don't miss this opportunity. While you are there, u can try interning voluntarily at any firm there during vacation, to help u gain experience.. In summary, don't let this opportunity slip past you..
Re: MSc In UK Versus N183k Job Offer: Advice Please by nonix22(m): 9:00pm On Sep 08
IamRespected:
Sorry op if I sound rude or harsh but I must state it here, better bomb is in your head, how the hell can you be comparing a scholarship abroad with a work of a net pay of 183? Mr man, it's as if your village people are dancing with your destiny, better dump that silly job and grab that opportunity asap
If you know the living condition in the UK for a foreigner, u no go talk like this. UK ain't everything man, studying there maybe regarded as a waste of time. Cos at the end, Na ur body go tell you. I'm talking from experience, no say person tell me.
Re: MSc In UK Versus N183k Job Offer: Advice Please by majekdom2: 9:27pm On Sep 08
DanXplore:
Thanks guys, i am gradually zeroing towards a decision. You guys are the best!
Oga, go for your masters!!!! This is one opportunity you will regret if you don't for the following reasons:
1. It's a scholarship- it's a boost to your profile
2. You are still young
3. The course is worth it
4. Yes, agriculture is making waves but is it your passion
5. If you do your homework and research well, opportunity abounds. Know yourself!!
6. The labour market is getting competitive by the day. There are individuals with Ph.d that are applying to same jobs you are. Your experience and a masters degree is a boost. I was at a recruiting event sometime ago and more than 90 percent of the candidates there were masters degree holder.
Finally bro, there is nothing bad in coming back to Nigeria if you truly know what you are doing. Never see an opportunity to study abroad as an escape from the country. You won't be able to make the impact you ought to. Don't ever go with a mindset of not coming back whether US or Canada. You have limited your impact already by doing so. There are individuals that have relocated back to Nigeria and are running successful businesses i.e Tayo oviosu of paga, Andela iyinioluwa and so many that are not even in the dailies. You are a great guy and the sky is only a starting point
Re: MSc In UK Versus N183k Job Offer: Advice Please by Nobody: 10:17pm On Sep 08
I'll go for MSc in UK without blinking or having a thought but it's harder to stay behind in UK after Masters or such programs unlike Canada and USA when you can still influence your stay.

1 Like

Re: MSc In UK Versus N183k Job Offer: Advice Please by rinzaugustine: 10:57pm On Sep 08
heo88:


Guy first and foremost, well done on getting the scholarship offer.

Secondly, you definitely have a dilemma on your hands, but on the balance of things I'd recommend you go to the UK and study the MSc.

From reading your write-up, I'm personally confident you could get similar jobs in Nigeria to what you currently have, upon graduation. Furthermore, you may even secure a better position, courtesy of your additional degree.

On the subject of the UK, I am a janded Nigerian, born and mostly bred there. If you want to be able to stay in the UK through a sponsored-visa after your degree, you will absolutely have to use style:

If I was you, I'd search on different companies that work in chemical engineering. I would then contact them and offer to work for them for free. You use the opportunity to increase your exposure to the work, even if you have to do some errands that you'd rather not do, like making tea, grabbing lunch for Oga etc. If your attitude is good, they may offer part-time paid employment after a short while during your course, and at which point they are pretty likely to sponsor you. Furthermore, once you find a gig initially, whether paid or unpaid, you can simultaneously seek paid work with other firms, as you're not just bringing them experience, but you're also demonstrating commitment and integrity by working for the first employer for free.

My advice will be to really analyse their operations in depth, understand the processes, and if possible, identify some shortcomings. This will likely result in them seeing you as a valuable member of their team. When you gist with them on lunch/recreational breaks, ensure you build a rapport; ask questions about 'UK' culture, find common ground subjects to discuss. Initially you may want to eavesdrop on casual conversations and this will help you in building healthy relationships with your colleagues. The reason I say this is because 'Brexit' is an ongoing issue, and the main reason for it is white poor and average people are angry with the UK powers, they feel marginalised, and so their vote last June was like a collective tantrum; just one done by adults. They are irrational scared of black people 'stealing' non-existent jobs (to believe this is true requires real imagination) and by you expressing an interest in their 'culture', they'll begin to see you as one of them. When it comes to seeking visa sponsorship after graduation, it becomes easier when you have a number of colleagues, particularly oyibo ones, rooting for you.

If you gain the exposure from working paid or unpaid, depending on how hard you work, you may be able to build a consultancy service for potential clients, producing reports/research and being paid fees in a self-employed capacity. This is another potential way of securing an entrepreneur visa.


I hope you can see the potential from what I've shared. Trust me either approach you take may be valuable, but it's the manner in which you approach either opportunity which is what counts most.

I wish you well with your eventual decision and if you want to ask any further questions, feel free to PM me etc.
I learnt something new today.You are a genuis bro.I am now following you ,so that i can read your posts

1 Like

Re: MSc In UK Versus N183k Job Offer: Advice Please by Rogosa(m): 12:05am On Sep 09
DanXplore:
Please, i could use some career advice from great nairalanders. Please tag monikers that you think would be of great help, as i am at a crucial point in my career.

I am a graduate of chemcal engineering but for 2years now, have not gotten any engineering related job. The only job i got was at KPMG (audit), which i resigned after 3 months due to some personal reasons. I am currently an Area Sales Rep with a poultry feed production company that pays 183k per month (net take home after tax and other necessary deductions), though i could use up to 20 to 25k to fuel my car monthly.
Now, i just got a PTDF scholarship offer to study Advanced process integration and design in UK but not really sure if it is worth ditching my current job for it.

I am not very confident about securing a job once i finish msc because only a handful of opportunities come for chemical engineers. more also,UK rarely retains Nigerians.

Please what are your advices, especially from those who have done Msc in Uk.

I need your advices, i dont want to make a costly mistake.


The best thing is to travel abroad and add that certificate to your feather. You will still get a better job!
Re: MSc In UK Versus N183k Job Offer: Advice Please by Michealforever: 12:56am On Sep 09
DanXplore:
Please, i could use some career advice from great nairalanders. Please tag monikers that you think would be of great help, as i am at a crucial point in my career.

I am a graduate of chemcal engineering but for 2years now, have not gotten any engineering related job. The only job i got was at KPMG (audit), which i resigned after 3 months due to some personal reasons. I am currently an Area Sales Rep with a poultry feed production company that pays 183k per month (net take home after tax and other necessary deductions), though i could use up to 20 to 25k to fuel my car monthly.
Now, i just got a PTDF scholarship offer to study Advanced process integration and design in UK but not really sure if it is worth ditching my current job for it.

I am not very confident about securing a job once i finish msc because only a handful of opportunities come for chemical engineers. more also,UK rarely retains Nigerians.

Please what are your advices, especially from those who have done Msc in Uk.

I need your advices, i dont want to make a costly mistake.

Go do the UK masters, since it's a scholarship and find your way to USA easily...you will not regret it. UK just carry name for head. Within two years you would get a green card if you're smart in the USA.

Opportunities are endless in the USA for STEM courses.
Re: MSc In UK Versus N183k Job Offer: Advice Please by Gamesmart: 1:16am On Sep 09
saajus:
Too easy. Don't be confused.. Go for your Masters - 2yrs. After your Masters, move to US or Canada for PhD in Petroleum Engineering or similar field of your interest - 3yrs. You will surely get scholarship/assistantship for that too. After your PhD in Canada, permanent resident permit is 100% sure.After your PhD in USA, permanent resident is not 100% sure but smart guys know how to use their PhD research papers get permanent resident..

Assuming you get $80k/annum job after your PhD which I believe with your qualifications, that shouldn't be difficult. If you are not extravagant, let's say you have $50k left after paying bills.You will have 36million Naira in savings after 2 yrs of work. 7 Yrs working in Poultry feed mill, you will make 15m Naira if you don't spend a dime from your salary.

Boy, take this 7 yrs journey to change your life. If you are so patriotic and you decide to return to Nigeria after 7 yrs, you will have PhD, international exposure, Canada/USA resident permit and 36million in your bank.


How the hell are you going to save $50K from a $80K salary after paying all bills?
Re: MSc In UK Versus N183k Job Offer: Advice Please by Profandie(m): 5:45am On Sep 09
Prec1ous:
You applied for the scholarship with the sole aim of winning and getting the grant to study abroad, so why are you now confused?

The situation of the country is dire but you alone know yourself and as an engineer working as a sales representative, then there is space for everyone but not everywhere.

It is better you go since your tuition is covered it you have to start thinking ahead from hence because if you come back to this country with nothing, you may be DOOMED!

Use the opportunity abroad to expand and grow, come back with a new orientation and create jobs or leave there after your study to another country.

I wish you success and shall be well with you.

PS: It is not a prayer, it is what I know, GO WELL!

For those looking for same opportunity as the OP.

Scholarships to study abroad for Nigerians and Africans
I am not looking for scholarship opportunities yet. Am interested in a good paying job, I am a masters of education student ,having a first degree in Education/Accounting.
Pls anyone with info or wanting to help, it would be really appreciated.
Thabks .
Otike Andrew
Re: MSc In UK Versus N183k Job Offer: Advice Please by Prec1ous(m): 7:03am On Sep 09
Profandie:

I am not looking for scholarship opportunities yet. Am interested in a good paying job, I am a masters of education student ,having a first degree in Education/Accounting.
Pls anyone with info or wanting to help, it would be really appreciated.
Thabks .
Otike Andrew

Okay, I guess I will create a job update thread then.

I will search for current listings and update you
Re: MSc In UK Versus N183k Job Offer: Advice Please by Profandie(m): 7:14am On Sep 09
Prec1ous:


Okay, I guess I will create a job update thread then.

I will search for current listings and update you
Thanks so much.
I will be monitoring your posts.
I appreciate
Re: MSc In UK Versus N183k Job Offer: Advice Please by Jascon4: 8:19am On Sep 09
heo88:


Guy first and foremost, well done on getting the scholarship offer.

Secondly, you definitely have a dilemma on your hands, but on the balance of things I'd recommend you go to the UK and study the MSc.

From reading your write-up, I'm personally confident you could get similar jobs in Nigeria to what you currently have, upon graduation. Furthermore, you may even secure a better position, courtesy of your additional degree.

On the subject of the UK, I am a janded Nigerian, born and mostly bred there. If you want to be able to stay in the UK through a sponsored-visa after your degree, you will absolutely have to use style:

If I was you, I'd search on different companies that work in chemical engineering. I would then contact them and offer to work for them for free. You use the opportunity to increase your exposure to the work, even if you have to do some errands that you'd rather not do, like making tea, grabbing lunch for Oga etc. If your attitude is good, they may offer part-time paid employment after a short while during your course, and at which point they are pretty likely to sponsor you. Furthermore, once you find a gig initially, whether paid or unpaid, you can simultaneously seek paid work with other firms, as you're not just bringing them experience, but you're also demonstrating commitment and integrity by working for the first employer for free.

My advice will be to really analyse their operations in depth, understand the processes, and if possible, identify some shortcomings. This will likely result in them seeing you as a valuable member of their team. When you gist with them on lunch/recreational breaks, ensure you build a rapport; ask questions about 'UK' culture, find common ground subjects to discuss. Initially you may want to eavesdrop on casual conversations and this will help you in building healthy relationships with your colleagues. The reason I say this is because 'Brexit' is an ongoing issue, and the main reason for it is white poor and average people are angry with the UK powers, they feel marginalised, and so their vote last June was like a collective tantrum; just one done by adults. They are irrational scared of black people 'stealing' non-existent jobs (to believe this is true requires real imagination) and by you expressing an interest in their 'culture', they'll begin to see you as one of them. When it comes to seeking visa sponsorship after graduation, it becomes easier when you have a number of colleagues, particularly oyibo ones, rooting for you.

If you gain the exposure from working paid or unpaid, depending on how hard you work, you may be able to build a consultancy service for potential clients, producing reports/research and being paid fees in a self-employed capacity. This is another potential way of securing an entrepreneur visa.


I hope you can see the potential from what I've shared. Trust me either approach you take may be valuable, but it's the manner in which you approach either opportunity which is what counts most.

I wish you well with your eventual decision and if you want to ask any further questions, feel free to PM me etc.

Very sensible!
Re: MSc In UK Versus N183k Job Offer: Advice Please by jobbers: 10:29am On Sep 09
183k
Re: MSc In UK Versus N183k Job Offer: Advice Please by Mixty: 11:07am On Sep 09
DanXplore:
Thanks to you all, i have seen your mentions but could not reply all. You guys are the best!

I have decided to take the scholarship offer.

I hope that this thread would assist someone in future if faced with such 'good' dilemma.

one love
Nice. I would dropped my advice but since you have made the obviously right choice, no need for that anymore.
Re: MSc In UK Versus N183k Job Offer: Advice Please by SpeedGod: 12:28pm On Sep 09
Acidosis:
I'm not a "career" kind of person, but I think you should consider what you're passionate about -- (M.Sc.) oversea. I'm also not experienced or old enough to advise you but trust me 183k is not really much (no amount of money is ever enough anyway).

Even after you must have obtained your M.Sc, and hopefully get an increased pay at work or on a new job, your new salary would still not be enough.
It is not a curse or something, but a reality that has played out in the lives of many out there.

So, money should not be a driving force in the pursuit of fulfilment cos no amount of it will ever be ENOUGH.

Whether UK or Nigeria, don't let money be the driving force. I'd rather you move to the UK because your passion tilts towards a postgraduate study/process engineering. This will help curb any feeling of frustration, just in the event that you come back without any meaningful or immediate job offer.


Best advise in my opinion. I did my MSc In UK. I am living in Nigeria now.
Re: MSc In UK Versus N183k Job Offer: Advice Please by heo88(m): 3:01pm On Sep 09
rinzaugustine:
I learnt something new today.You are a genuis bro.I am now following you ,so that i can read your posts

Thank you for your kind words, God bless.

2 Likes

Re: MSc In UK Versus N183k Job Offer: Advice Please by geobukky(m): 6:20pm On Sep 09
mrbyron:
My friend. People are telling you that you can from the UK, apply to Canada to live and study. That is not true. You have to first return to your home country before you can travel to Canada. Please take note of that
That's not true, my uncle went from UK to Canada directly.

1 Like

Re: MSc In UK Versus N183k Job Offer: Advice Please by geobukky(m): 7:06pm On Sep 09
Mr OP... Congrats.

Nothing is certain; things change. But, you'll regret never daring to see what's at the back of the scholarship.

If I may, don't take all nairalanders seriously. Some people are here to mislead you on purpose. Ask people that have been in similar situations.

But if money is the chief factor

183k? Like seriously?

Your yearly allowance as a ptdf scholar is over #7.5m... and am sure you'll have upto 9m at the end of the year in savings if you use your 20hrs per week. Except you decide to live luxurious like some.
Minimum you'll earn per hour in the UK should be like £7. And you do 40hrs during hols etc.
I don't really know your interests so I won't want to bore you. But if it's money, can you save 5m on your current job in a year??
You need to ask the right questions and ask the right people for advise

And am not asking you to take it o, if you wanna reject it be quick so someone else can pick it up.

1 Like

Re: MSc In UK Versus N183k Job Offer: Advice Please by pooozeee: 9:03am On Sep 10
Msc in UK is better
Re: MSc In UK Versus N183k Job Offer: Advice Please by CaraJewel(f): 8:59am On Sep 14
DanXplore:
look at them viewing without commenting grin

Viewing this topic: sizzlingcold (m), CaraJewel(f),
nellybadas, AutumnSpring (f), madjnr,
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its not a must to do so

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