701ecilana:

Was the Islamic incursion in the 8Century?

yes dear, Islamic military activities began as soon as the 7th century with Muhammad all into the 8 century.

701ecilana:

What was the name of the Church Persecuted by the Roman Empire?

Source pls.

the name is the Catholic church.


would you accept the testimony of those who were killed and their fellow Christian as valid source?

Ubenedictus:
the name is the Catholic church.


would you accept the testimony of those who were killed and their fellow Christian as valid source?

Source pls. because the last i know the Church didn't have a name until the Roman Empire adopted it as a state religion. So pls, Sourse. Pls don't tell me to believe testimonies of people.

When Nero was killing Christians, were those Christians Catholics?

701ecilana:


Source pls. because the last i know the Church didn't have a name until the Roman Empire adopted it as a state religion. So pls, Sourse. Pls don't tell me to believe testimonies of people.

When Nero was killing Christians, were those Christians Catholics?

It did according to history.. The Church was called Catholic long before Christianity was legalized as a permitted by the Constantine... Constantine legalised Christianity in the Roman empire with the edict of Milan in 313..
https://simple.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edict_of_Milan

But 200 years before that Ignatius of Antioch who was bishop of Antioch in the early 100s.. history holds that he was a disciple of John...
he called the Church Catholic in his letter to the Smyrnaeans

Wherever the bishop appears, there let the people be; as wherever Jesus Christ is, there is the Catholic Church. It is not lawful to baptize or give communion without the consent of the bishop. On the
other hand, whatever has his approval is pleasing to God.
Thus, whatever is done will be safe and valid. — Letter to the Smyrnaeans 8, J.R. Willis translation.

This was one of the seven letters he wrote on his way to Rome to be martyred in 107 AD
here are the seven letters
Seven Authentic Letters:
The Letter to the Ephesians ,
The Letter to the Magnesians ,
The Letter to the Trallians ,
The Letter to the Romans ,
The Letter to the Philadelphians ,
The Letter to the Smyrnaeans ,
The Letter to Polycarp, Bishop of Smyrna

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ignatius_of_Antioch

To those who said that the Catholic Church killed Paul, Peter, Jesus etc.. That's historically and even Biblically inaccurate..

1. The Jews instigated Pilate to kill Jesus Christ NEITHER THE JEWS NOR PILATE WAS A CATHOLIC.... read your Bible for That...

2. The Roman Empire is different from the Roman Church... The Roman Empire is the government and Region.. which is different from the Christians in Rome whom Paul wrote to in the book of romans... See Romans 1:7 To all God’s beloved in Rome, who are called to be saints:

3. the Roman empire persecuted Christians and the emperor who instigated such persecutions where not Catholic (Christians)
here are the emperors who persecuted Christians up until Constantine who legalized Christianity in 313 with the edict of Milan...

1. It started majorly under Nero in 64 AD in which Peter and Paul were killed and many other Christians in Rome...

2. Domitian 89- 96.. Persecuted Christians and Jews... The Book of Revelation , which mentions at least one instance of martyrdom (Rev 2:13; cf. 6:9), is thought by many scholars to have been
written during Domitian's reign.

3. Trajan (109-111)
4. Hadrian (117-138)

this went on and on until Diocletian and Constantine ended it in 313...

ALL THE ROMAN EMPERORS WERE PAGANS UNTIL CONSTANTINE...

4. The Fact that Romans persecuted Christians doesn't follow that the Christians in Rome also persecuted Christians.. THE JEWS PERSECUTED CHRISTIANS IN JERUSALEM TOO USING PAUL (see acts 7,8 and 9).. It doesnt follow from that, that because Jews persecuted Christians in Jerusalem that Christians in Jerusalem Persecuted Christians..

Lastly.. The catacombs in Rome shows where many Christians in Rome were buried and how they hid from persecution... could the catholic church persecute itself by itself...

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persecution_of_Christians_in_the_Roman_Empire

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catacombs

701ecilana:


Source pls. because the last i know the Church didn't have a name until the Roman Empire adopted it as a state religion. So pls, Sourse. Pls don't tell me to believe testimonies of people.

When Nero was killing Christians, were those Christians Catholics?

1. the Church was called the Way during the middle 1st century.

2. By the late 1st century and the early 2nd century it had a name it was called the Catholic Church as can be seen from the writing of Ignatius of Antioch which @easy already reference.


3.Christianity became a state religion in the 5th century but even before then all through the 2nd, 3rd and 4th century the Church has been called the Catholic Church. And as the Way is simply the early name for the Catholic Church it follows that the 1st century church is Catholic.


4. Nero persecuted the Church about AD 64, but he wasn't even the most grievous persecutor nor did he proclaim laws for the whole empire to do so like the emperor Desius 225AD.


5. As for source I will paste the martyrs and allow them bear testimony by themselves that they were Catholics.


Ignatius of Antioch was martyr in Rome abt 107 AD

he was Catholic since he wrote the following.
Wherever the bishop appears, there let the people be; as wherever Jesus Christ is, there is the Catholic Church. It is not lawful to baptize or
give communion without the consent of the bishop. On the other hand, whatever has his approval is pleasing to God.
Thus, whatever is done will be safe and valid. —
Letter to the Smyrnaeans


polycarp disciple of John the apostle AD 110

The Martyrdom of Polycarp
When finally he concluded his prayer, after
remembering all who had at any time come his
way – small folk and great folk, distinguished
and undistinguished, and the whole Catholic
Church throughout the world – the time for
departure came. So they placed him on an ass,
and brought him into the city on a great
Sabbath ( The Martyrdom of Polycarp 8 [A.D.
110]).

Ubenedictus:


1. the Church was called the Way during the middle 1st century.

2. By the late 1st century and the early 2nd century it had a name it was called the Catholic Church as can be seen from the writing of Ignatius of Antioch which @easy already reference.


3.Christianity became a state religion in the 5th century but even before then all through the 2nd, 3rd and 4th century the Church has been called the Catholic Church. And as the Way is simply the early name for the Catholic Church it follows that the 1st century church is Catholic.


4. Nero persecuted the Church about AD 64, but he wasn't even the most grievous persecutor nor did he proclaim laws for the whole empire to do so like the emperor Desius 225AD.


5. As for source I will paste the martyrs and allow them bear testimony by themselves that they were Catholics.


Ignatius of Antioch was martyr in Rome abt 107 AD

he was Catholic since he wrote the following.
Wherever the bishop appears, there let the people be; as wherever Jesus Christ is, there is the Catholic Church. It is not lawful to baptize or
give communion without the consent of the bishop. On the other hand, whatever has his approval is pleasing to God.
Thus, whatever is done will be safe and valid. —
Letter to the Smyrnaeans


polycarp disciple of John the apostle AD 110

The Martyrdom of Polycarp
When finally he concluded his prayer, after
remembering all who had at any time come his
way – small folk and great folk, distinguished
and undistinguished, and the whole Catholic
Church throughout the world – the time for
departure came. So they placed him on an ass,
and brought him into the city on a great
Sabbath ( The Martyrdom of Polycarp 8 [A.D.
110]).

Link?

701ecilana:
Link?

http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/0109.htm
that is the writing of Ignatius of Antioch

easymancfc:


It did according to history.. The Church was called Catholic long before Christianity was legalized as a permitted by the Constantine... Constantine legalised Christianity in the Roman empire with the edict of Milan in 313..
https://simple.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edict_of_Milan

But 200 years before that Ignatius of Antioch who was bishop of Antioch in the early 100s.. history holds that he was a disciple of John...
he called the Church Catholic in his letter to the Smyrnaeans

Wherever the bishop appears, there let the people be; as wherever Jesus Christ is, there is the Catholic Church. It is not lawful to baptize or give communion without the consent of the bishop. On the
other hand, whatever has his approval is pleasing to God.
Thus, whatever is done will be safe and valid. — Letter to the Smyrnaeans 8, J.R. Willis translation.

This was one of the seven letters he wrote on his way to Rome to be martyred in 107 AD
here are the seven letters
Seven Authentic Letters:
The Letter to the Ephesians ,
The Letter to the Magnesians ,
The Letter to the Trallians ,
The Letter to the Romans ,
The Letter to the Philadelphians ,
The Letter to the Smyrnaeans ,
The Letter to Polycarp, Bishop of Smyrna

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ignatius_of_Antioch

easymancfc:

It did according to history.. The Church was called Catholic long before Christianity was legalized as a permitted by the Constantine... Constantine legalised Christianity in the Roman empire with the edict of Milan in 313.

I hope you know there so many Churches back then known by their locations but not by names?

Before Constantine made the Church a state religion, had the Churches been made one by calling it by one unified name (Catholic Church) and no longer by the locations as they were known before then?
Source pls.

easymancfc:


But 200 years before that Ignatius of Antioch who was bishop of Antioch in the early 100s.. history holds that he was a disciple of John...
he called the Church Catholic in his letter to the Smyrnaeans

Apostle Paul planted Churches every where, in different cities and locations. Other Apostles also planted nameless Churches, but you are singling out Ignatius of Antioch who was a so called an Apostle of John, (not of Jesus) to give the honour of naming the Church of Jesus? Under whose mandate?

The Great Apostle Paul did not name the Church of Jesus Christ but Ignatius could?

Do you still remember that the Smyrnean Church wasn't given a name even by the Master, our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ? He, the head of the Church called that church 'The Church in Symna'. Apostls John did not name the Symnaen church.

Note pls, that the Apostle John did not establish the Churches in the Asia Minor then, Paul did. The Master only gave him revelations of warning for the Churches.

easymancfc:

Wherever the bishop appears, there let the people be; as wherever Jesus Christ is, there is the Catholic Church. It is not lawful to baptize or give communion without the consent of the bishop. On the
other hand, whatever has his approval is pleasing to God.

easymancfc:


It did according to history.. The Church was called Catholic long before Christianity was legalized as a permitted by the Constantine... Constantine legalised Christianity in the Roman empire with the edict of Milan in 313..
https://simple.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edict_of_Milan

But 200 years before that Ignatius of Antioch who was bishop of Antioch in the early 100s.. history holds that he was a disciple of John...
he called the Church Catholic in his letter to the Smyrnaeans

Wherever the bishop appears, there let the people be; as wherever Jesus Christ is, there is the Catholic Church. It is not lawful to baptize or give communion without the consent of the bishop. On the
other hand, whatever has his apporoval is pleasing to God.
Thus, whatever is done will be safe and valid. — Letter to the Smyrnaeans 8, J.R. Willis translation.

This was one of the seven letters he wrote on his way to Rome to be martyred in 107 AD
here are the seven letters
Seven Authentic Letters:
The Letter to the Ephesians ,
The Letter to the Magnesians ,
The Letter to the Trallians ,
The Letter to the Romans ,
The Letter to the Philadelphians ,
The Letter to the Smyrnaeans ,
The Letter to Polycarp, Bishop of Smyrna

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ignatius_of_Antioch

I hope you know there were so many Churches back then known by their locations but not by names?

Before Constantine made the Church a state religion, had the Churches been made one by calling it by one unified name (Catholic Church) and no longer by the locations as they were known before then?

If yes, Source pls.

easymancfc:

But 200 years before that Ignatius of Antioch who was bishop of Antioch in the early 100s.. history holds that he was a disciple of John...
he called the Church Catholic in his letter to the Smyrnaeans

Apostle Paul planted Churches every where, in different cities and locations. Other Apostles also planted nameless Churches, but you are singling out Ignatius of Antioch who was a so called an Apostle of John, (not of Jesus) to give the honour of naming the Church of Jesus? Under whose mandate?

The Great Apostle Paul did not name the Church of Jesus Christ but Ignatius could?

Do you still remember that the Smyrnean Church wasn't given a name even by the Master, our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ? He, the head of the Church called that church 'The Church in Smyrna'. Apostls John did not name the Smyrnaen church.

Note pls, that the Apostle John did not establish the Churches in the Asia Minor then, Paul did. The Master only gave him revelations of warning for the Churches.

easymancfc:

Wherever the bishop appears, there let the people be; as wherever Jesus Christ is, there is the Catholic Church. It is not lawful to baptize or give communion without the consent of the bishop. On the
other hand, whatever has his approval is pleasing to God.

Pls i will need Scriptural backing for this.

easymancfc:

Thus, whatever is done will be safe and valid. — Letter to the Smyrnaeans 8, J.R. Willis translation.

This seems to suggest that it was the Church in Smyrna that Ignatius named. Did he also name the other Churches?

easymancfc:


This was one of the seven letters he wrote on his way to Rome to be martyred in 107 AD
here are the seven letters
Seven Authentic Letters:
The Letter to the Ephesians ,
The Letter to the Magnesians ,
The Letter to the Trallians ,
The Letter to the Romans ,
The Letter to the Philadelphians ,
The Letter to the Smyrnaeans ,
The Letter to Polycarp, Bishop of Smyrna

Were the letters written on his way to Rome or in the Island of Patmos?

I'm seeing Letter to the Magnesians
The Letter to Trallians.
The Letter to Romans, and to Polycarp and you called them authentic. But, i can't find them in the Bible. What makes them authentic?

There's something here. Who do we go with? Apostle John who receive the revelations for the Churches or Ignatius his servant?

John received the visions to the churches, the Giver of the vision and the conveyor of the visions didn't name the church[ies], but Ignatius could? Who gave him that mandate?

Don't you think that if Ignatius received a Mandate from Christ to name His Church, that could have been recorded in the Scriptures?

There's still something here; Which Church did Ignatius name, the Smyrnian Church or the entire Churches both in Asia Minor and others locations? Was the Church in Jerusalem also called the Catholic Church because Ignatius said so?

Cc: BlueAgent.

Ubenedictus:

http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/0109.htm

that is the writing of Ignatius of Antioch

I have responded to your brother, pls refer.

701ecilana:

I have responded to your brother, pls refer.

sorry dear, that your response doesn't answer my post.


1. I gave you historic sources that clearly shows that even before Constantine the Church was called the Catholic church whatever the city it is located in, instead of addressing that fact you decided to regurgitate the lie that the name was given during the time of Constantine.

2.why do you like arguing against yourself? who told you that Ignatius named the Church? I certainly didn't say that, instead I showed that he clearly shows that the Catholic church was the named long before Constantine.

just to pick your brain, are you aware that the same Ignatius is the first Christian to call himself a Christian in any written form? the name Christian wasn't given by an apostle either. it was given in Antioch check your Bible.

3. John may not have started much in Asia minor but all historic sources from early Christian all agree he settled there. He settled in Ephesus and became leader of the Church there and appointed bishops to continue his ministry.




I don't know why you referred me to the post you made to @easy because it certainly hardly answers me post.

Ubenedictus:


sorry dear, that your response doesn't answer my post.


1. I gave you historic sources that clearly shows that even before Constantine the Church was called the Catholic church whatever the city it is located in, instead of addressing that fact you decided to regurgitate the lie that the name was given during the time of Constantine.

2.why do you like arguing against yourself? who told you that Ignatius named the Church? I certainly didn't say that, instead I showed that he clearly shows that the Catholic church was the named long before Constantine.

just to pick your brain, are you aware that the same Ignatius is the first Christian to call himself a Christian in any written form? the name Christian wasn't given by an apostle either. it was given in Antioch check your Bible.

3. John may not have started much in Asia minor but all historic sources from early Christian all agree he settled there. He settled in Ephesus and became leader of the Church there and appointed bishops to continue his ministry.




I don't know why you referred me to the post you made to @easy because it certainly hardly answers me post.

Ubenedictus:

1. I gave you historic sources that clearly shows that even before Constantine the Church was called the Catholic church whatever the city it is located in, instead of addressing that fact you decided to regurgitate the lie that the name was given during the time of Constantine.

Why do you say I have not answered your question? Isn't the link you posted the same with the one your brother posted?

You talk about Ignatius of Antioch naming the Church as Catholic, exactly what he said.

Ubenedictus:

why do you like arguing against yourself? who told you that Ignatius named the Church? I certainly didn't say that, instead I showed that he clearly shows that the Catholic church was the named long before Constantine.

I think you shd direct that question to your brother, because his link says exactly that.
You can try telling me who named the Church of Jesus Christ Catholic.

Ubenedictus:


sorry dear, that your response doesn't answer my post.


1. I gave you historic sources that clearly shows that even before Constantine the Church was called the Catholic church whatever the city it is located in, instead of addressing that fact you decided to regurgitate the lie that the name was given during the time of Constantine.

2.why do you like arguing against yourself? who told you that Ignatius named the Church? I certainly didn't say that, instead I showed that he clearly shows that the Catholic church was the named long before Constantine.

just to pick your brain, are you aware that the same Ignatius is the first Christian to call himself a Christian in any written form? the name Christian wasn't given by an apostle either. it was given in Antioch check your Bible.

3. John may not have started much in Asia minor but all historic sources from early Christian all agree he settled there. He settled in Ephesus and became leader of the Church there and appointed bishops to continue his ministry.




I don't know why you referred me to the post you made to @easy because it certainly hardly answers me post.

Apostle John settled in Asia Minor and became the leader of which church?

Remember the 7Churches renown Churches The Master wrote warnings and commendations to?

The Church in Smyrna
Thyatira
Ephesus
Sadis
Pergamum
Philedelphia etc.
Which was Apostle John head over? Was it the Ephesian Church? Or all the Churches? We are not even talking about all the other churches o.

When the Catholic Church try to create History, they forget to cover lapses.

Was the Church in Jerusalem called the Catholic Church? Who called it thus?

701ecilana:

I hope you know there were so many Churches back then known by their locations but not by names?

Before Constantine made the Church a state religion, had the Churches been made one by calling it by one unified name (Catholic Church) and no longer by the locations as they were known before then?

If yes, Source pls.


Apostle Paul planted Churches every where, in different cities and locations. Other Apostles also planted nameless Churches, but you are singling out Ignatius of Antioch who was a so called an Apostle of John, (not of Jesus) to give the honour of naming the Church of Jesus? Under whose mandate?

The Great Apostle Paul did not name the Church of Jesus Christ but Ignatius could?

Do you still remember that the Smyrnean Church wasn't given a name even by the Master, our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ? He, the head of the Church called that church 'The Church in Smyrna'. Apostls John did not name the Smyrnaen church.

Note pls, that the Apostle John did not establish the Churches in the Asia Minor then, Paul did. The Master only gave him revelations of warning for the Churches.


Pls i will need Scriptural backing for this.


This seems to suggest that it was the Church in Smyrna that Ignatius named. Did he also name the other Churches?



Were the letters written on his way to Rome or in the Island of Patmos?

I'm seeing Letter to the Magnesians
The Letter to Trallians.
The Letter to Romans, and to Polycarp and you called them authentic. But, i can't find them in the Bible. What makes them authentic?

There's something here. Who do we go with? Apostle John who receive the revelations for the Churches or Ignatius his servant?

John received the visions to the churches, the Giver of the vision and the conveyor of the visions didn't name the church[ies], but Ignatius could? Who gave him that mandate?

Don't you think that if Ignatius received a Mandate from Christ to name His Church, that could have been recorded in the Scriptures?

There's still something here; Which Church did Ignatius name, the Smyrnian Church or the entire Churches both in Asia Minor and others locations? Was the Church in Jerusalem also called the Catholic Church because Ignatius said so?

Cc: BlueAgent.

First of all Ignatius didn't "name" the Church... He is just the first person recorded to "call" it by that name according to history way before Constantine which was your original question...

2. The Church was known by their location... yes. but it was one Church... one Universal Church.. the Location was just used to emphasize where they were located..

3. The Church was always one before and after Constantine legalized Christianity... because the apostles and their successors taught ONE DOCTRINE.. PROFESSED ONE FAITH.. It was always Catholic because it is Universal ... which is what the word catholic means..The word catholic (with lowercase c ; derived
via Late Latin catholicus , from the Greek
adjective καθολικός ( katholikos ), meaning "universal" [1][2] ) comes from the Greek phrase καθόλου ( katholou), meaning "on the whole", "according to the whole" or "in general", and is a combination of the Greek words κατά meaning "about" and ὅλος meaning "whole". [3][4] The term Catholic (usually written with uppercase C in English) was first used to describe the Christian Church in the early 2nd century to emphasize..
its universal scope.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catholic_(term)..

3. Like I said earlier.. Ignatius didn't name the Church but your argument does not follow.... The Church has been called "catholic" because that is what it is, "universal".. Ignatius was the first written record of the church called catholic...

4. On your point about Ignatius not being a disciple of Jesus... that is laughable..

Any disciple of an apostle is a disciple of Jesus too.. The apostles had successors who headed the Church after they were no more... John died in AD 100, and he was the last apostle... after the apostles, the next are those who they ordained to be their successors... and Ignatius and Polycarp are historically disciples of John... and hence Jesus...
Paul said to Timothy..

2 Tim 2: 2 and what you have heard from me before many witnesses entrust to faithful men who will be able to teach others also.
And how was Timothy to pass it on... Paul laid hands on him and taught him
2 Tim 1:6 Hence I remind you to rekindle the gift of God that is within you through the laying on of my hands;

John taught Ignatius and Polycarp historically...
you already have the link for Ignatius
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polycarp

SO ANYONE JOHN OR ANY OTHER APOSTLE ORDAINS HAS THE MANDATE OF CHRIST..

701ecilana:

I hope you know there were so many Churches back then known by their locations but not by names?

Before Constantine made the Church a state religion, had the Churches been made one by calling it by one unified name (Catholic Church) and no longer by the locations as they were known before then?

If yes, Source pls.


Apostle Paul planted Churches every where, in different cities and locations. Other Apostles also planted nameless Churches, but you are singling out Ignatius of Antioch who was a so called an Apostle of John, (not of Jesus) to give the honour of naming the Church of Jesus? Under whose mandate?

The Great Apostle Paul did not name the Church of Jesus Christ but Ignatius could?

Do you still remember that the Smyrnean Church wasn't given a name even by the Master, our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ? He, the head of the Church called that church 'The Church in Smyrna'. Apostls John did not name the Smyrnaen church.

Note pls, that the Apostle John did not establish the Churches in the Asia Minor then, Paul did. The Master only gave him revelations of warning for the Churches.


Pls i will need Scriptural backing for this.


This seems to suggest that it was the Church in Smyrna that Ignatius named. Did he also name the other Churches?



Were the letters written on his way to Rome or in the Island of Patmos?

I'm seeing Letter to the Magnesians
The Letter to Trallians.
The Letter to Romans, and to Polycarp and you called them authentic.

Don't you think that if Ignatius received a Mandate from Christ to name His Church, that could have been recorded in the Scriptures?

There's still something here; Which Church did Ignatius name, the Smyrnian Church or the entire Churches both in Asia Minor and others locations? Was the Church in Jerusalem also called the Catholic Church because Ignatius said so?

Cc: BlueAgent.

1. Like I said in my earlier post.. the word catholic means universal meaning that Ignatius wasn't just talking about the Smyrnaean Church.. He was talking about the "whole universal" church...

2. Paul or Peter didn't need to name the Church because their mandate from Christ was to make the Church universal.. to go in to the "whole" to spread Christ's ONE church... that Church even though located in different areas was universal and because it is universal.. it was called "Catholic...

3. Ignatius's letters are different from John's revelation.. Ignatius wrote on his way to be martyred in Rome... John wrote while on exile in Patmos...

They are authentic because they have been verified by historians to be actually written by Ignatius...
DON'T MISTAKE IGNATIUS LETTERS FOR THOSE IN JOHN'S REVELATION..

4. You can't have scriptural backing for Ignatius's letter to the Smyrnaeans because it is not part of the new testament writings.. just like many other early Christian writings... But that doesn't take away from it because it has been verified historically to be true..
AND P.S. THE CHURCH CONTINUE AFTER THE CLOSE OF THE NEW TESTAMENT..

5. Ignatius didn't name the Church in Smyrna. He made a statement.. that where you find a Bishop which in his time are direct successors of the Apostles.. there you also find the church which the apostles found.. which was universal or "Catholic"..The whole church is catholic if you find a bishop there that has apostolic ordination...

Wherever the bishop appears,
there let the people be; as
wherever Jesus Christ is, there
is the Catholic Church. It is
not lawful to baptize or give
communion without the
consent of the bishop. On the
other hand, whatever has his
approval is pleasing to God.
Thus, whatever is done will be
safe and valid. — Letter to the
Smyrnaeans 8, J.R. Willis
translation.

701ecilana:


Why do you say I have not answered your question? Isn't the link you posted the same with the one your brother posted?

You talk about Ignatius of Antioch naming the Church as Catholic, exactly what he said.


I think you shd direct that question to your brother, because his link says exactly that.
You can try telling me who named the Church of Jesus Christ Catholic.

you're back to arguing with yourself, @easy didn't say Ignatius "named" the Church, he simply showed that Ignatius clearly shows that the name Catholic church predates Constantine by over 200years

701ecilana:

Apostle John settled in Asia Minor and became the leader of which church?

Remember the 7Churches renown Churches The Master wrote warnings and commendations to?

The Church in Smyrna
Thyatira
Ephesus
Sadis
Pergamum
Philedelphia etc.
Which was Apostle John head over? Was it the Ephesian Church? Or all the Churches? We are not even talking about all the other churches o.

When the Catholic Church try to create History, they forget to cover lapses.

Was the Church in Jerusalem called the Catholic Church? Who called it thus?

John was in Ephesus after Jerusalem, every early Christian account puts him there... he was also an apostle which puts him above most Church leaders in Asia minor hence his vision in revelation from the island addresses them specifically.


since you seem ignorant of this ask your pastor. or read up.

www.newworldencyclopedia.org/entry/John_the_Apostle

701ecilana:


Why do you say I have not answered your question? Isn't the link you posted the same with the one your brother posted?

You talk about Ignatius of Antioch naming the Church as Catholic, exactly what he said.


I think you shd direct that question to your brother, because his link says exactly that.
You can try telling me who named the Church of Jesus Christ Catholic.

My dear can you show me where my link says that...
Show me where it says Ignatius named the Church "catholic"

701ecilana:


Why do you say I have not answered your question? Isn't the link you posted the same with the one your brother posted?

You talk about Ignatius of Antioch naming the Church as Catholic, exactly what he said.


I think you shd direct that question to your brother, because his link says exactly that.
You can try telling me who named the Church of Jesus Christ Catholic.

Let's even assume for the sake of it.. that Ignatius named the church catholic... He has apostolic pedigree...
1. Because He was taught the faith by the apostles themselves...

2. He was a bishop of the Church of Antioch where believers were first called Christians (acts 11:26)...

3.. He clearly had apostolic connections because he was the Third Bishop of Antioch After Evodius who according to history succeeded Peter who founded the Church in Antioch and He was active in John the last apostle's lifetime..
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patriarch_of_Antioch

here's a little excerpt for you...
It was in the city of Antioch (modern day
Antakya in southeast Turkey ) that Christians were first so called ( Acts 11:26 ). According to church tradition, Saint Peter established the church in Antioch, and was the city's first bishop, [1] :92 [2] before going to Rome to found the Church there. [1] :95 Ignatius of Antioch (martyred c. 110), counted as the third bishop of the city, was a prominent apostolic father.
GO TO THE LINK FOR THE REST...
Compare him with the Many "Men of God" of nowadays who go about creating and naming Churches...

Kumuyi - Deeper Life
Oyakhilome - Christ Embassy..
Oyedepo - Living Faith...
Odukoya - Mountain of Fire
Suleiman - Omega Fire...
etc..

I'm sure you think these Men have greater authority and mandate to "name" Churches that a man who directly learned from the apostles and was third Bishop of one of the first Christian communities in history...

easymancfc:

Let's even assume for the sake of it.. that Ignatius named the church catholic... He has apostolic pedigree...

Pls let's not work on assumptions. As Christians assumptions are dangerous because they will breed heresy. Pls, who named the Church of Jesus Christ 'The Catholic Church?'

easymancfc:

. Because He was taught the faith by the apostles themselves...

Who crowned Ignatius an Apostle? John? Do you mean 'Disciple or an Apostle?', the only person who can call anyone into the office of Apostleship is Christ Himself.

It may interest you to note that Barnabas, Silas, Timothy, Titus, Luke, Mark, these men where the immediate contemporaries of the Apostles, most of them Jews and saw Jesus in their younger days even if they didn't believe he was who he said he was at the time, yet none of them was called Apostles, they were disciples.

Pls who made Ignatious of Antioc an Apostle? Was he an Apostle of John or a disciple of Christ?


[quote author=easymancfc post=60329682]
He is a bishop of the Church of Antioch where believers were first called Christians (acts 11:26)...

You mean Apostle Paul planted the Churches in this region and did not ordain any bishop over them, not even his immediate fellow servants in the Vineyard like Timothy, Silas, and Luke (who gave us the accounts of what happened in Antioch), but John had an Apostle he made a Bishop over the Church Paul established? Or, was it John who made Ignatius an Apostle?

And, you got one thing here wrong. There Antiochans didn't call 'A Church' Christians, they called the people who where everywhere declaring Christ Christians.

easymancfc:

3.. [b]He clearly had apostolic connections[/b]because he was the Third Bishop of Antioch After Evodius who according to history succeeded Peter who founded the Church in Antioch and He was active in John the last apostle's lifetime..

I never Knew Apostleship is now by connection and no more by ordination or calling. Hmmm.
The third Bishop of Antioch? Who was the First and sexond? Pls note that, if he was the third Bishop of Antioch, John the Apostle would have passed on before that time, yeah?
In your first post you said Ignatius wrote Letters to the churches or was it Apostle John who did? The point i'm trying to make here is that, if Ignatius was made an Apostle by John, he(Ignatius) whd ve been the first Bishop of the Church in Antioch in John's time or a little afterwards, not the third.

According to Acts of Apostles, Churches met in small groups in peoples homes becos of persecution, when did all the home Churches in Antioch merged together to have one Central Bishop called Ignatius, who determined the name?

Who were the first and second Bishops? Pls bare in mind that, that this period there was still fierce persecution against the body of Christ.

easymancfc:

Antakya in southeast Turkey ) that Christians were first so called ( Acts 11:26 ). According to church tradition, Saint Peter established the church in Antioch, and was the city's first bishop, [1] :92 [2] before going to Rome to found the Church there. [1] :95 Ignatius of Antioch (martyred c. 110), counted as the third bishop of the city, was a prominent apostolic father.

Should we believe this account or the account of the Acts of The Apostles which says Apostle Paul established the Churches in Antioch?

You have to give the Scriptural backing showing Peter ever stepped his feet in Rome. The Acts of the Apostle didn't say anything about that.

easymancfc:

Antakya in southeast Turkey ) that Christians were first so called ( Acts 11:26 ). According to church tradition, Saint Peter established the church in Antioch, and was the city's first bishop, [1] :92 [2] before going to Rome to found the Church there. [1] :95 Ignatius of Antioch (martyred c. 110), counted as the third bishop of the city, was a prominent apostolic father.

Pls try not to shift the goal post here. This is not about these people, this is about the Church being called 'The Catholic Church by the early Christians'. This has been about the Catholic Church and when the Church was named and by whom, not about any Pentecostal.
Let's focus pls.

easymancfc:

My dear can you show me where my link says that...
Show me where it says Ignatius named the Church "catholic"

Here is where you said he called the Church of Jesus Christ 'Catholic'.

easymancfc:

It did according to history.. The Church was called Catholic long before Christianity was legalized as a permitted by the Constantine... Constantine legalised Christianity in the Roman empire with the edict of Milan in 313..
https://simple.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edict_of_Milan

But 200 years before that Ignatius of Antioch who was bishop of Antioch in the early 100s. history holds that he was a disciple of John...
he called the Church Catholic in his letter to the Smyrnaeans

Oh, he was the Apostle who wrote Letters to the Churches not John yeah?

Ubenedictus:

John was in Ephesus after Jerusalem, every early Christian account puts him there... he was also an apostle which puts him above most Church leaders in Asia minor hence his vision in revelation from the island addresses them specifically.

No one removed Apostle John from Ephesus. He was there but he never planted any Church there.

Listen, this is not about Apostle John and if he were in Ephesus or not or whether or not he was a Church leader there.
This is about the naming of the Church 'Catholic?'
Who named the Church Catholic Church? And when?

Ubenedictus:

since you seem ignorant of this ask your pastor. or read up.

Pls, do not insult my intelligence. Gone are the days i wait for my priest to tell me what the Pope approves for me to know and believe. I have a mind of my own and i read. I have 4 different Bible Translations, i read them. I read everything printed in English, so don't think i'm still a Catholic.

[quote author=Ubenedictus post=60329223]

Ubenedictus:
you're back to arguing with yourself, @easy didn't say Ignatius "named" the Church, he simply showed that Ignatius clearly shows that the name Catholic church predates Constantine by over 200years

He did and here is where.[/quote]

easymancfc:

But 200 years before that Ignatius of Antioch who was bishop of Antioch in the early 100s.. history holds that he was a disciple of John...
he called the Church Catholic in his letter to the Smyrnaeans
[quote author=Ubenedictus post=60328948]

he simply showed that Ignatius clearly shows that the name Catholic church predates Constantine by over 200years

He did and here is where.[/qoute]
His post says Ignatius of Antioch called the Church 'Catholic'. But if you say the name predates Ignatius, and Ignatius was a contemporary of Apostle John, shouldn't the name Catholic be mentioned in the Bible?
If Apostle John knew the Church as Catholic, shouldn't it be called thus rather than the 'The Church?'

John wrote letters to the different Churches and never called any of them by name, yet you claim the name Catholic predated Ignatius a man who lived when John lived. What you are saying is that, the Church in Jerusalem was called the Catholic Church.

Source pls.

easymancfc:


1. Like I said in my earlier post.. the word catholic means universal meaning that Ignatius wasn't just talking about the Smyrnaean Church.. He was talking about the "whole universal" church...

2. Paul or Peter didn't need to name the Church because their mandate from Christ was to make the Church universal.. to go in to the "whole" to spread Christ's ONE church... that Church even though located in different areas was universal and because it is universal.. it was called "Catholic...

3. Ignatius's letters are different from John's revelation.. Ignatius wrote on his way to be martyred in Rome... John wrote while on exile in Patmos...

They are authentic because they have been verified by historians to be actually written by Ignatius...
DON'T MISTAKE IGNATIUS LETTERS FOR THOSE IN JOHN'S REVELATION..

4. You can't have scriptural backing for Ignatius's letter to the Smyrnaeans because it is not part of the new testament writings.. just like many other early Christian writings... But that doesn't take away from it because it has been verified historically to be true..
AND P.S. THE CHURCH CONTINUE AFTER THE CLOSE OF THE NEW TESTAMENT..

5. Ignatius didn't name the Church in Smyrna. He made a statement.. that where you find a Bishop which in his time are direct successors of the Apostles.. there you also find the church which the apostles found.. which was universal or "Catholic"..The whole church is catholic if you find a bishop there that has apostolic ordination...

Wherever the bishop appears,
there let the people be; as
wherever Jesus Christ is, there
is the Catholic Church. It is
not lawful to baptize or give
communion without the
consent of the bishop. On the
other hand, whatever has his
approval is pleasing to God.
Thus, whatever is done will be
safe and valid. — Letter to the
Smyrnaeans 8, J.R. Willis
translation.

Lol. You're trying to wriggle yourself out of what you had said before.

This has been about whether the Catholic Church existed before the Roman Church was made a state religion, you said yes. You insisted the Catholic Church was persecuted by the Roman Empire before Constantine made it the state religion, and i said no.

I asked for prove, you took me back to Ignatius, and him being the contemporary of Apostle John and him being killed by the Roman Government.

I asked how we know he was a Catholic, you posted where he called the Church 'Catholic' in his Letter to the Smyrnean Church.

I asked why Jesus referred to his Churches as Church, and no Apostle named any church. They were all identified by their locations, when were the Churches merged into one and called Catholic?

You threw in a post where Ignatius of Antioch in his letter to the Church in Smyrna called it thus. Again, you said he had the connection from or with John to name the Church you ementioned todays pentecostals who did.

Now, you are trying to shift from that.
Now i just got to know that After Jesus gave visions to Apostle John about the churches, Ignatius wrote his own letters to the same Churches. Did the Master gave him revelations too?

easymancfc:

. Ignatius didn't name the Church in Smyrna. He made a statement.. that where you find a Bishop which in his time are direct successors of the Apostles.. there you also find the church which the apostles found.. which was universal or "Catholic"..The whole church is catholic if you find a bishop there that has apostolic ordination...

Your post didn't say that, it says he called the church Catholic What does that mean? Before him, had anyone else called it thus?

How come the Bible didn't mention this all important Ignatius of Antioch? The antecedents of John the Apostle are here, why not Ignatius'?

easymancfc:

Wherever the bishop appears,
there let the people be; as
wherever Jesus Christ is, there
is the Catholic Church. It is
not lawful to baptize or give
communion without the
consent of the bishop. On the
other hand, whatever has his
approval is pleasing to God.
Thus, whatever is done will be
safe and valid. — Letter to the
Smyrnaeans 8, J.R. Willis

The bolded seems to suggest a replacement of the divine presence of Christ(Which indwells every believer) with that of one particular person, the Bishop.

Jesus says 'where two or three are gathered in MY NAME, I AM there WITH THEM'.
Who is J.R. Willis to change that?

MykOnyxo:


even all the seven churches mentioned in book of revelation were located in modern Turkey.... the biggest church then is now a mosque.......

Yea. Islam is peace they would say

701ecilana:

Here is where you said he called the Church of Jesus Christ 'Catholic'.

Am sorry to say.. but I think comprehension is the problem.. there is a difference between naming something and calling it by Its name... HISTORY SHOWS THE CHURCH TO BE CALLED CATHOLIC... WHOEVER NAMES IT DOESN'T MATTER.. WHAT MATTERS IS THAT IT WAS CALLED WHICH ANSWERS YOUR QUESTION DIRECTLY

701ecilana:


Oh, he was the Apostle who wrote Letters to the Churches not John yeah?

Stop being Silly... like I pointed out earlier, John's letters in Revelation are different from Ignatius letters... Ignatius wrote to the Churches and his friend Polycarp in a different scenario than John did... John wrote to seven Churches

Ignatius's letters are
The Letter to the Ephesians ,
The Letter to the Magnesians ,
The Letter to the Trallians ,
The Letter to the Romans ,
The Letter to the Philadelphians ,
The Letter to the Smyrnaeans ,
The Letter to Polycarp, Bishop of Smyrna

John's Letters are to the Churches in
Ephesus
Smyrna
Thyatira
Pergamum
Sardis
Philadelphia
Laodicea

So the letters are different... The content were different... they were written at different times... the Occasion was different

And for your information... Any ordained bishop can write to any Church... Paul wrote to Ephesus... so did John in revelation... Paul wrote to Galatia.. so did Peter in his Epistles.. what matters is for the Churches to recognize you as a Leader of any of the Churches...

Secondly after the apostles died their successors also wrote letters to churches they could not go to...

701ecilana:

Hahahahahahahahahaha. No. Rome didn't kill Christ. No one could kill Christ even if they wanted to.

The Master gave them himself. He offered Himself for his mission on earth to be accomplished.

John:10:17-18
Therefore doth my Father love me, because I lay down my life, that I might take it again.

No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I received of my Father.

This is why He asked his father to forgive them all.

And, again, pls, the Catholic church or any church for that matter was not inexistence when Christ Sacrificed His life. So pls stop okay?

Perfect.

701ecilana:


Source pls. because the last i know the Church didn't have a name until the Roman Empire adopted it as a state religion. So pls, Sourse. Pls don't tell me to believe testimonies of people.

When Nero was killing Christians, were those Christians Catholics?

True.

A look at The Book of Revelations chapter 1, shows that Jesus addressed the Churchs by their different names and location.

Paul also addressed his letters to the different Churches using their locations as their names.

701ecilana:

I hope you know there were so many Churches back then known by their locations but not by names?

Before Constantine made the Church a state religion, had the Churches been made one by calling it by one unified name (Catholic Church) and no longer by the locations as they were known before then?

If yes, Source pls.


Apostle Paul planted Churches every where, in different cities and locations. Other Apostles also planted nameless Churches, but you are singling out Ignatius of Antioch who was a so called an Apostle of John, (not of Jesus) to give the honour of naming the Church of Jesus? Under whose mandate?

The Great Apostle Paul did not name the Church of Jesus Christ but Ignatius could?

Do you still remember that the Smyrnean Church wasn't given a name even by the Master, our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ? He, the head of the Church called that church 'The Church in Smyrna'. Apostls John did not name the Smyrnaen church.

Note pls, that the Apostle John did not establish the Churches in the Asia Minor then, Paul did. The Master only gave him revelations of warning for the Churches.


Pls i will need Scriptural backing for this.


This seems to suggest that it was the Church in Smyrna that Ignatius named. Did he also name the other Churches?



Were the letters written on his way to Rome or in the Island of Patmos?

I'm seeing Letter to the Magnesians
The Letter to Trallians.
The Letter to Romans, and to Polycarp and you called them authentic. But, i can't find them in the Bible. What makes them authentic?

There's something here. Who do we go with? Apostle John who receive the revelations for the Churches or Ignatius his servant?

John received the visions to the churches, the Giver of the vision and the conveyor of the visions didn't name the church[ies], but Ignatius could? Who gave him that mandate?

Don't you think that if Ignatius received a Mandate from Christ to name His Church, that could have been recorded in the Scriptures?

There's still something here; Which Church did Ignatius name, the Smyrnian Church or the entire Churches both in Asia Minor and others locations? Was the Church in Jerusalem also called the Catholic Church because Ignatius said so?

Cc: BlueAgent.

I Concur 100%,They are desperate to prove ther genuity as a true church by atrributing the origin of church to themselves.

[quote author=easymancfc post=60328122

The Church was known by their location... yes. but it was one Church... one Universal Church.. the Location was just used to emphasize where they were located..

The Church was always one before and after Constantine legalized Christianity... because the apostles and their successors taught ONE DOCTRINE.. PROFESSED ONE FAITH.. It was always Catholic because it is Universal ... which is what the word catholic means..The word catholic (with lowercase c ; derived
uote]



If the Church was always one as you say?
How come Catholic doctrines differ from those of the apostles?
eg. Like keep of the Sabbath day,the ten commandments, and other doctrines.

701ecilana:

Lol. You're trying to wriggle yourself out of what you had said before.

My dear either comprehension is
problem for you or you didn't read anything I posted.. read to understand not to reply

701ecilana:

This has been about whether the Catholic Church existed before the Roman Church was made a state religion, you said yes. You insisted the Catholic Church was persecuted by the Roman Empire before Constantine made it the state religion, and i said no.

I asked for prove, you took me back to Ignatius, and him being the contemporary of Apostle John and him being killed by the Roman Government.

I asked how we know he was a Catholic, you posted where he called the Church 'Catholic' in his Letter to the Smyrnean Church.

I asked why Jesus referred to his Churches as Church, and no Apostle named any church. They were all identified by their locations, when were the Churches merged into one and called Catholic?

Yes they were identified by their location to specify which Church was being addressed.. The Church of Jesus Christ on earth is UNIVERSAL and that is what catholic means... so to specify which of the universal church is being spoken about.. you use the location...
Catholic Church can be any of the millions of catholic churches all over the world... but I say the EDO Catholic Church.. It is clearer... catholic means universal.. the location is used for specificity

701ecilana:


You threw in a post where Ignatius of Antioch in his letter to the Church in Smyrna called it thus. Again, you said he had the connection from or with John to name the Church you ementioned todays pentecostals who did.

Because you assume that A successor of the apostles cannot "name" a church but Nigerian "Men of God" can...

701ecilana:

Now, you are trying to shift from that.
Now i just got to know that After Jesus gave visions to Apostle John about the churches, Ignatius wrote his own letters to the same Churches. Did the Master gave him revelations too?

because you don't know church history.. Go and read early Church historian EUSEBIUS OF CAESAREA'S HISTORY OF THE EARLY CHURCH... WHICH RECORDS LETTER WRITTEN BY SUCCESSORS OF THE APOSTLES TO VARIOUS CHURCHES

LIKE I HAVE POINTED OUT.. John's seven letters are different from Ignatius's letters to the Churches and his friend and Bishop of Smyrna.. Polycarp

701ecilana:

Your post didn't say that, it says he called the church Catholic What does that mean? Before him, had anyone else called it thus?

He called the church catholic because according to Jesus, his church was to spread throughout the whole world among all the nations, meaning universal, catholic means universal, according to the whole.
Yes Jesus did and anyone else who refers to the church as universal or for all nations

701ecilana:


How come the Bible didn't mention this all important Ignatius of Antioch? The antecedents of John the Apostle are here, why not Ignatius'?
Ignatius is not all important.. The Bible didn't mention him just like it doesn't talk about the activities of many other apostles after Pentecost (Mathew, Thomas etc), Another reason is that Ignatius was not made Bishop in biblical times.. or that he was not active during the periods the new testament records there are many reasons that can be provided...

[quote author=701ecilana post=60347757]
The bolded seems to suggest a replacement of the divine presence of Christ(Which indwells every believer) with that of one particular person, the Bishop.

Jesus says 'where two or three are gathered in MY NAME, I AM there WITH THEM'.
Who is J.R. Willis to change that?

the Bishop is to be the head of the Churches... It does not replace the indwelling of Christ.. what it means is that a bishop who heads a church (people) cannot be present where The people are not.. and besides the Bishops as successors of the apostles build or govern Churches that are for Christ.. so if you find a bishop there Christ is also there and the people by virtue of the bishop who brings Christ to them and shepherds them... then they have Christ within them.
. ITS NOt AN EITHER OR.. IT CAN GO BOTH WAYS..

OH AND JR WILLIS DIDN'T CHANGE ANYTHING.. HE IS JUST THE PERSON WHO TRANSLATED THE LETTER TO ENGLISH... AGAIN.. COMPREHENSION..