Inesqor  -

Please share with us your views on the salvation of non-christians - let us use the other great monotheistic religion - Islam - as a reference point.

Thank you.

I hate to think I am stalking DeepSight. . , . but why has he refused to answer my posers?

^^^ Haha. Let us not derail this thread. I will go back to that thread and respond to you shortly

Deep Sight:

Inesqor - (that i address you as "Inesqor" does not in any way mean that i am fooled into thinking you are not mavenbox - i know you are mavenbox).

Please share with us your views on the salvation of non-christians - let us use the other great monotheistic religion - Islam - as a reference point.

Thank you.

Deep Sight:

^^^ Haha. Let us not derail this thread. I will go back to that thread and respond to you shortly

DS why do u like to fight Argue with noetic, viaro, mavenbox and nuclearboy? i ve observed that for a while

^^^ Are you feeling left out?

Deep Sight:

Inesqor  - (that i address you as "Inesqor" does not in any way mean that i am fooled into thinking you are not mavenbox - i know you are mavenbox).

Field Marshall Deep Sight, I think this will only detract from the topic. I would treat mavenbox as mavenbox and InesQor as InesQor. Even if true, it would appear you and Tudor are accusing someone of being anonymous in an anonymous forum.

^^^ With reference to the admonition from MyJoe. . .I hereby withdraw that insinuation.

Inesqor - please i await you to address the topic.

Thanks.

MyJoe:

Field Marshall Deep Sight, I think this will only detract from the topic. I would treat mavenbox as mavenbox and InesQor as InesQor. Even if true, it would appear you and Tudor are accusing someone of being anonymous in an anonymous forum.

DeepSight is hereby pronounced guilty and sentenced to . . . .

Deep Sight:

^^^ Are you feeling left out?

Of what?

toba:

Of what?

Deep Sight:

Inesqor  - _{(that i address you as "Inesqor" does not in any way mean that i am fooled into thinking you are not mavenbox - i know you are mavenbox).}

Please share with us your views on the salvation of non-christians - let us use the other great monotheistic religion - Islam - as a reference point.

Thank you.

Wow I just discovered this thread! And how? I did a search on my name using the Yahoo search feature on NL.

@Deep Sight: Sorry I didn't see this on time. I will do a reply in some minutes if I can manage it or else in the morning. Cheers.

@MyJoe: I will keep saying that of the non-Christians I meet here on NL, the ones I respect the most for their wisdom seem to be You, Krayola and M_nwankwo. Thanks.

@Deep Sight: I need to be clear on this, if you're still in interested in pursuing the discussion.

What do you mean by "Salvation"? Please clarify so we can be on the same page before I can continue, thanks.

^^^^ Is the poster not referring to the christian definition of salvation? Why do you have to ask deep sight, who is not a christian, to define a word that is practically a christian logo? You, inesqor, as as christian, are supposed to go on the christian definition of salvation, so quit pussyfooting and answer the question.

@Jagunlabi: What's your problem exactly? Deep Sight is not a Christian, so I need to know what he means by salvation in this context. His understanding of God and spiritual things differs from mine, so I need to know about the salvation he refers to, and in that respect who the author of such salvation is, before I can speak of what the salvation entails!

I told you some hours ago. . . go and twiddle your thumbs.

^^^^ I am sure he was referring to the christian version of salvation or he wouldn't have directed the question at you. Thread was directed at christians who maintain that non-christians will not have what they(christians) think is salvation simply because they (the non-christians) are unbelievers of the christian faith. So, why are you still dragging ya feet? Answer the question from your own christian point of view. How deep sight understands the word is irrelevant at this point. The christian definition(s) that you and the rest of your brethrens hold firmly to is what counts for now. So, go for it.

Deep Sight, I will return when you explain what you mean by salvation because even dictionaries have various meanings. Narrow down your context.

Assumptions can prove odious.

InesQor:


@MyJoe: I will keep saying that of the non-Christians I meet here on NL, the ones I respect the most for their wisdom seem to be You, Krayola and M_nwankwo. Thanks.

Are you serious that MyJoe is not a Christian? Seems unfair He's out of it when I can think of a couple of pastors here who are better suited to paganism. And FYI, Krayola is just pretending (maybe MyJoe too) as far as I'm concerned. God is just biding His time

Commander Nuclear, Howdi?

Seems this thread was abandoned. . . I had quite forgotten about it.

Thanks for bringing it back to life.

jagunlabi:

^^^^ I am sure he was referring to the christian version of salvation or he wouldn't have directed the question at you. Thread was directed at christians who maintain that non-christians will not have what they(christians) think is salvation simply because they (the non-christians) are unbelievers of the christian faith. So, why are you still dragging ya feet? Answer the question from your own christian point of view. How deep sight understands the word is irrelevant at this point. The christian definition(s) that you and the rest of your brethrens hold firmly to is what counts for now. So, go for it.

@ Inesqor - Jagunlabi is right here.

But if you insist, I will say that by "Salvation" I mean "a state after death resulting towards the continuous rise of the human spirit towards realms of LIGHT; HARMONY; PURITY & GOD."

I await your esteemed reversion.

Thank you, Deep Sight. I will make a reversion in some hours as I have a meeting in some minutes. Cheers

@nuclearboy: Big bros I don't really know about MyJoe but I used to think Krayola is pretending, however after a lot of interactions with him I'm not so sure any longer. Thanks

^^^, Ok. . . eagerly awaiting.

Errrmm. . . as an aside . . . let me just say that which I am already notorious for on this forum.

My favourite Poster-Boy. . .Mahatma Ghandi . . . Let us also use his life as a sample for this discussion.

Thanks.

Deep Sight:

^^^, Ok. . . eagerly awaiting.

Errrmm. . . as an aside . . . let me just say that which I am already notorious for on this forum.

My favourite Poster-Boy. . .Mahatma Ghandi . . . Let us also use his life as a sample for this discussion.

Thanks.

I am quite interested in this topic. what has Ghandi's life to do with salvation?

^^^ Well, Ghandi was not a Christian.

However he lived a most exemplary life. Preaching, advancing and furthering peace and human brotherhood to a degree that very few human beings have done throughout history.

Noetic has often told me that notwithstanding this fact, since he (Ghandi) did not "accept Jesus as his personal lord and savior", he (Ghandi) is going to perish in HELL.

What is your take on this?

Deep Sight:

^^^ Well, Ghandi was not a Christian.

However he lived a most exemplary life.

By whose standards? Well maybe you have room for him in your own personal heaven. Why shld you expect him to get into Christ's heaven?

Deep Sight:

Preaching

Preaching what? who sent him? Let that person reward him.

Deep Sight:

advancing and furthering peace and human brotherhood to a degree that very few human beings have done throughout history.

Well surely humans shld create a heaven for him then.

Deep Sight:

Noetic has often told me that notwithstanding this fact, since he (Ghandi) did not "accept Jesus as his personal lord and savior", he (Ghandi) is going to perish in HELL.

What is your take on this?

Quite simple - John 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

To enter Christ's heaven is not by force.

^^^ But what does it take to be called a follower of Christ, really.

I was of the impression that Christ said that many would be his Sheep without even knowing it.

This suggests that its the heart that counts?

2. Would Ghandi go to Hell?

Deep Sight:

^^^ But what does it take to be called a follower of Christ, really.

Did you read John 3:5 with your eyes closed? Or are you just deliberately dishonest?

Deep Sight:

I was of the impression that Christ said that many would be his Sheep without even knowing it.

John 10:14 I am the good shepherd, and know my sheep, and am known of mine. 16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd. 27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:

You must be reading the bible upside down.

Deep Sight:

This suggests that its the heart that counts?

Your premise is false.

Deep Sight:

2. Would Ghandi go to Hell?

Was he saved by the blood of Christ? If not then he can go wherever heaven he wished to create for himself. I see no reason why everyone feels they must enter Christ's heaven by force.

Ok, o.

I will revert later. But not much as I know i cannot change your mind.

Inesqor?

Over to you.

Deep Sight:

Ok, o.

I will revert later. But not much as I know i cannot change your mind.

Inesqor?

Over to you.

Pls feel free . . . heaven is not by force. You can always create your own.

I apologize for butting in between DeepSight and David. InesQor made some comments on this issue awhile back on another thread. I believed the submission brilliant but open to further debate. Please see https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-419596.0.html#msg5768324, https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-419596.0.html#msg5770416, https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-419596.0.html#msg5770546, and most of all https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-419596.0.html#msg5778294.

I'd love to read comments on this but advise some careful consideration of the submissions in the entire thread before making judgements.

@InesQor:

8 days more

@All: Thanks for your patience.

@Deep Sight:

Having understood that you refer to an eternal salvation, I proceed.

I understand that Jesus Christ is the only portal into Heaven. But that portal is not necessarily exclusive to Christians. In fact, if some Christians are not careful, they will miss out. The same portal can decide to choose the extra people to allow inside, but Christians have a direct pass via a covenant of agreement. i.e. only Christians are assured of heaven, but some non-Christians may still manage to get in edge-ways because some of the Christians didn't make it.

Mat 22:1  Jesus responded by telling still more stories.
Mat 22:2  "God's kingdom," he said, "is like a king who threw a wedding banquet for his son.
Mat 22:3  He sent out servants to call in all the invited guests. And they wouldn't come!
Mat 22:4  "He sent out another round of servants, instructing them to tell the guests, 'Look, everything is on the table, the prime rib is ready for carving. Come to the feast!'
Mat 22:5  "They only shrugged their shoulders and went off, one to weed his garden, another to work in his shop.
Mat 22:6  The rest, with nothing better to do, beat up on the messengers and then killed them.
Mat 22:7  The king was outraged and sent his soldiers to destroy those thugs and level their city.
Mat 22:8  "Then he told his servants, 'We have a wedding banquet all prepared but no guests. The ones I invited weren't up to it.
Mat 22:9  Go out into the busiest intersections in town and invite anyone you find to the banquet.'
Mat 22:10  The servants went out on the streets and rounded up everyone they laid eyes on, good and bad, regardless. And so the banquet was on--every place filled.

But just because there is an opportunity (like a U.S. VISA lottery) to get into heaven because some Christians who were meant to make it, missed out, does not mean that one should not accord Christ the respect he's meant to. See what happened to the anything-goes guy below.

Mat 22:11  "When the king entered and looked over the scene, he spotted a man who wasn't properly dressed.
Mat 22:12  He said to him, 'Friend, how dare you come in here looking like that!' The man was speechless
Mat 22:13  Then the king told his servants, 'Get him out of here--fast. Tie him up and ship him to hell. And make sure he doesn't get back in.'
Mat 22:14  "That's what I mean when I say, 'Many get invited; only a few make it.'" .

I will begin by saying that Ghandi was a "special case" in that he knew what Jesus taught, and he understood it, but YET he rejected some parts and took some parts to himself to do and say. It thus makes no sense for him to still expect to receive the same salvation of the one he rejected.

However, there MAY be some non-Christians who did not reject the Gospel of Christ; but either did not understand it, never heard it, or were faithful to it even without knowing it, and I believe these ones MAY be eternally saved based on the criteria of their heart.

God sees and judges every heart and motive, and there is a big difference between people like Deep Sight who take every opportunity to ridicule Christ, calling him the carpenter of Nazareth that was only deified in hero-worship, choosing which ones of his teachings he can adhere to; and of people who never really got to get the message of Christ. God sees every heart.

To push my points much further, I will render some explanations using Christ's profound teachings in Matthew 25.

Please stay with me as I expatiate my belief.

P.S> For easier reading, I quote from the Message Translation except when the KJV appears very different in meaning.

@nuclearboy: Ah my dear big bro. Thanks for linking to the former thread in which I discussed this. In my next post, I will be doing some heavy lifting from there to save time.

The Matthew 25 teachings

The ten virgins
Mat 25:1  "God's kingdom is like ten young virgins who took oil lamps and went out to greet the bridegroom.
Mat 25:2  Five were silly and five were smart.
Mat 25:3  The silly virgins took lamps, but no extra oil.
Mat 25:4  The smart virgins took jars of oil to feed their lamps.
Mat 25:5  The bridegroom didn't show up when they expected him, and they all fell asleep.
Mat 25:6  "In the middle of the night someone yelled out, 'He's here! The bridegroom's here! Go out and greet him!'
Mat 25:7  "The ten virgins got up and got their lamps ready.
Mat 25:8  The silly virgins said to the smart ones, 'Our lamps are going out; lend us some of your oil.'
Mat 25:9  "They answered, 'There might not be enough to go around; go buy your own.'
Mat 25:10  "They did, but while they were out buying oil, the bridegroom arrived. When everyone who was there to greet him had gone into the wedding feast, the door was locked.
Mat 25:11  "Much later, the other virgins, the silly ones, showed up and knocked on the door, saying, 'Master, we're here. Let us in.'
Mat 25:12  "He answered, 'Do I know you? I don't think I know you.'
Mat 25:13  "So stay alert. You have no idea when he might arrive.

I see the lamps as religions. They were not the most important thing, and neither was it the various belief systems / worldviews (oil) attached to fuel the religions. There were 5 wise virgins who had extra oil for their lamps (you can liken this to Christianity because they had an assurance that the lamps would burn far into the night, no matter when the groom arrives; the same way you have an assurance of making heaven if you are a Christian indeed) and there were 5 foolish virgins who had lamps with not enough oil. The groom came after their oil had expired. But theey eventually missed out.

Why did the five foolish virgins miss out? It was not because they did not have enough oil (worldviews) BECAUSE if they had waited for the bridegroom to arrive, the oil lamps were not a pass into the marriage hall (otherwise they would get in when they got more oil).

What was a pass was their AVAILABILITY when he arrives. Agreed, if they had enough oil they won't have left, but if they had waited for the bridegroom rather than paying attention to the oil, they would have gotten in.

v6 says someone shouted that the Bridegroom had arrived, and in the frenzy the foolish ones tried to look for oil. By the time the bridegroom ACTUALLY arrived, they were outside buying oil. And that's where what Davidylan quoted comes in

John 10:14 I am the good shepherd, and know my sheep, and am known of mine. 16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd. 27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:

If they KNEW his voice, they would have waited for him, oil or no oil, rather than follow the noise of a stranger who caused the frenzy. The road is narrow.

---

The Talents

Mat 25:14  "It's also like a man going off on an extended trip. He called his servants together and delegated responsibilities.
Mat 25:15  To one he gave five thousand dollars, to another two thousand, to a third one thousand, depending on their abilities. Then he left.
Mat 25:16  Right off, the first servant went to work and doubled his master's investment.
Mat 25:17  The second did the same.
Mat 25:18  But the man with the single thousand dug a hole and carefully buried his master's money.
Mat 25:19  "After a long absence, the master of those three servants came back and settled up with them.
Mat 25:20  The one given five thousand dollars showed him how he had doubled his investment.
Mat 25:21  His master commended him: 'Good work! You did your job well. From now on be my partner.'
Mat 25:22  "The servant with the two thousand showed how he also had doubled his master's investment.
Mat 25:23  His master commended him: 'Good work! You did your job well. From now on be my partner.'
Mat 25:24  "The servant given one thousand said, 'Master, I know you have high standards and hate careless ways, that you demand the best and make no allowances for error.
Mat 25:25  I was afraid I might disappoint you, so I found a good hiding place and secured your money. Here it is, safe and sound down to the last cent.'
Mat 25:26  "The master was furious. 'That's a terrible way to live! It's criminal to live cautiously like that! If you knew I was after the best, why did you do less than the least?
Mat 25:27  The least you could have done would have been to invest the sum with the bankers, where at least I would have gotten a little interest.
Mat 25:28  "'Take the thousand and give it to the one who risked the most. And get rid of this "play-it-safe" who won't go out on a limb.
Mat 25:29  (SEE 25:28)
Mat 25:30  Throw him out into utter darkness.'

Jesus said the Kingdom is like this parable of the talents above. I believe this buttresses my point that God knows the ABILITY of each man, and he knows the ones that worked with what they got, and he knows the complacent ones that refused to do anything. e.g. the guy who hid his talent (or $1000 in the translation above) is the guy who KNEW of investments that would have brought gain but he PLAINLY and STUBBORNLY refused to use them. Once again, one size does not fit all.

God knows who deliberately rejected the truth after getting it, and those who didn't get it. EACH ONE ACCORDING TO THE ABILITY and OPPORTUNITY THAT GOD CAN READ IN THEM

---

The Judgment

Mat 25:31  "When he finally arrives, blazing in beauty and all his angels with him, the Son of Man will take his place on his glorious throne.
Mat 25:32  Then all the nations will be arranged before him and he will sort the people out, much as a shepherd sorts out sheep and goats,
Mat 25:33  putting sheep to his right and goats to his left.
Mat 25:34  "Then the King will say to those on his right, 'Enter, you who are blessed by my Father! Take what's coming to you in this kingdom. It's been ready for you since the world's foundation.
Mat 25:35  And here's why: I was hungry and you fed me, I was thirsty and you gave me a drink, I was homeless and you gave me a room,
Mat 25:36  I was shivering and you gave me clothes, I was sick and you stopped to visit, I was in prison and you came to me.'
Mat 25:37  "Then those 'sheep' are going to say, 'Master, what are you talking about? When did we ever see you hungry and feed you, thirsty and give you a drink?
Mat 25:38  And when did we ever see you sick or in prison and come to you?'
Mat 25:39  (SEE 25:38)
Mat 25:40  Then the King will say, 'I'm telling the solemn truth: Whenever you did one of these things to someone overlooked or ignored, that was me--you did it to me.'
Mat 25:41  "Then he will turn to the 'goats,' the ones on his left, and say, 'Get out, worthless goats! You're good for nothing but the fires of hell.
Mat 25:42  And why? Because-- I was hungry and you gave me no meal, I was thirsty and you gave me no drink,
Mat 25:43  I was homeless and you gave me no bed, I was shivering and you gave me no clothes, Sick and in prison, and you never visited.'
Mat 25:44  "Then those 'goats' are going to say, 'Master, what are you talking about? When did we ever see you hungry or thirsty or homeless or shivering or sick or in prison and didn't help?'
Mat 25:45  "He will answer them, 'I'm telling the solemn truth: Whenever you failed to do one of these things to someone who was being overlooked or ignored, that was me--you failed to do it to me.'
Mat 25:46  "Then those 'goats' will be herded to their eternal doom, but the 'sheep' to their eternal reward."

KunleOshob and some other folk here on NL have done a lot of justice to this particular scripture emphasizing LOVE as the Gospel we are to deliver, but I will also emphasize that the great commission from Christ was

[list]
[li]Mat 28:19  Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
Mat 28:20  Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen. [/li]
[li][/li]
[/list]

and we all know the things that Christ taught and commanded. It was all centred on love. Note the caveat: "baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost". Whoever denigrates the trinity deliberately, cannot expect to receive the same salvation from them.

In the next post, I will insert some posts from my previous conversation on the other thread and that will be all until questions have to be answered.

Really long post, I apologize in advance.

In the thread referenced by nuclearboy, I said and here I repeat: I may be in error, but this is my understanding. In fact, I attempted to discuss this with a well-respected (to me at least) NL Christian off Nairaland but all that the person said was "You are in error" but did not pursue the discussion further and has not replied my messages since then.  Therefore, unless I see credible evidence that this is not so, it remains my belief for now.

I said:

I think I agree with Graham and the OP here, and here is something Jesus said

Mat 21:28  What do you think? There was a man who had two sons. He came to the first and said, Son, go and work today in the vineyard.
Mat 21:29  And he answered, I will not; but afterward he changed his mind and went.
Mat 21:30  Then the man came to the second and said the same [thing]. And he replied, I will [go], sir; but he did not go.
Mat 21:31  Which of the two did the will of the father? They replied, The first one. Jesus said to them, Truly I tell you, the tax collectors and the harlots will get into the kingdom of heaven before you.

So, I believe it is possible to do the will of God and be a member of the body of Christ even if one is a non-believer.

Unfortunately, there is a really thin line between the person of Christ and the message that he preached.

MANY people do not even know the distinction, and that's why we keep hearing words such as "that Israelite carpenter", and there are also many people who reject the message of Christ because they reject Christianity. There are however, many others who do not even know that they are strong adherents of the message of Christ, while they will adamantly say they are non-Christians!

In such an identification with the Christ, they have fulfilled a necessary pre-requisite for heaven, but they do not know this. Such will be in heaven, I believe.

What do you guys think about this?

then I said:

I believe this thread is not in any way negating Christianity, but I believe it answers questions like

"what happens to those who are truly ignorant and never heard of Christ because they live in the Amazon jungle and nobody ever reached them? Would they go to hell?"

"What of new born babies who are relatively exhibiting rational inagency and they die?"

"What happens to one who heard of Christianity but he didn't quite understand the message before he died?"

and other such questions with which people decry Christianity; because I believe God can see each heart, and if Christ is essentially there, whether they know him or not, they will be deemed righteous and go to heaven.

This is at variance from those who knew of Christ essentially and yet denied anything to do with his Gospel (not necessarily Christianity. I believe the gospel of Christ is much more than, and far greater than, Christianity).

More well-advised comments, please! I may be erring here.

and also

@babaearly:

babaearly:

<snip> Maybe you've seen your faults and you kindly just dodge me.</snip>

Nice one. This is about no faults, because I have never claimed to know it all. In fact, I already said on this thread and elsewhere that "I may be erring". i.e. I may be in the wrong. I would not have asked for an invitation to correct me if I didn't want you to, but I didn't want to respond initially because I do not like having discussions with people who have made up their minds about me already, and that is what it looks like you have done. However, I will go ahead and respond. It's a long post, though. Sit tight!

---

babaearly:
I guess the stress should be on accept. Dont you think anyone that accepts the gospel of Christ accepts Christianity (whatever true Christianity there is)? Then what do you make of the Buddhist, and the Pagans? Are they Part of Christianity? Except you want to tell me Christianity, true Christianity i.e accepting Jesus Christ as your Lord and Personal Saviour is not the only Way, the narrow and difficult way that leads to eternal life and God? Buddhist and Pagans/Non-believers also have Jesus Christ?
Well it will be ok now to ask if you are a Christian so i know where to end this.

You said anyone who accepts the gospel of Christ accepts Christianity but that is not true. The converse is true, though. i.e. everyone who accepts Christianity has definitely accepted the gospel of Christ. For example, Mahatma Gandhi accepted the gospel of Christ but said he would have nothing to do with Christianity. I cannot speak for his eternal future, though, that's for God to decide.

Christianity is just an aspect of the Gospel of Christ, and Jesus is more concerned with your acceptance of His Gospel than of you being called a "little Christ" or "mock Christ" (that's what Christianity means) in word only. There are many people called Christians who will be shocked at the end of time. And there are many who live according to God's will and they are not Christians and will be shocked as well to find themselves rewarded.

The tricky part is that most times, vehemently rejecting the simple and rather harmless message of Christianity also shows a hardened heart that will not be able to yield lovingly to God in other respects. So, definitely most non-believers won't make it either. But then, many Christians won't make it as well.

---

Jesus said the road is really narrow and few find it. It's so narrow that it's an individual race! The road itself is the Christ, but we are not all on the same spot. Paul's experience on that road is not John's experience, and it's not yours, it's not mine.

On his return from the grave,
Mat 28:18  Jesus approached and, breaking the silence, said to them, All authority (all power of rule) in heaven and on earth has been given to Me.
Mat 28:19  Go then and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them into the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,
Mat 28:20  [size=18pt]Teaching them to observe everything that I have commanded you[/size], and behold, I am with you all the days (perpetually, uniformly, and on every occasion), to the [very] close and consummation of the age. Amen (so let it be).

For the record, to my knowledge Jesus never said anything about "accepting him as Lord and Personal Saviour", but as the Way, Truth and Life and that nobody comes to the Father except by Him. Most of what Christian people practise today is what Paul taught, because Apostle Paul was really aggressive back in those days. It was Paul's own experience. That does not make it wrong, but I believe more exegesis ought to be given to Christ's teachings over Paul's teachings.

---

The question then is, WHAT are the things that Jesus had commanded the disciples to observe? What is the TRUE message of the Christ?

As for pre-requisites, He told Nicodemus "You must be born from above". What does it mean?
Joh 3:5  Jesus answered, I assure you, most solemnly I tell you, unless a man is born of water and [even] the Spirit, he cannot [ever] enter the kingdom of God. [Ezek. 36:25-27.]
Joh 3:6 What is born of [from] the flesh is flesh [of the physical is physical]; and what is born of the Spirit is spirit.
Joh 3:7  Marvel not [do not be surprised, astonished] at My telling you, You must all be born anew (from above).
Joh 3:8  The wind blows (breathes) where it wills; and though you hear its sound, yet you neither know where it comes from nor where it is going. So it is with everyone who is born of the Spirit.

The interesting thing is that Paul's teachings were fail-safe, and I adhere to them as well. They were fail-safe in that if a Christian follows them, he would most likely stay on the right path, because they were written by a man who had experienced God's power first-hand, and written TO people that he "pastored" over i.e his proteges. Even then, whatever Paul taught can only pale when compared to what Jesus Himself ever said!!!

[size=16pt]However, saying that those who don't follow those teachings of Paul would be in the wrong is like saying that whoever does not attend remedial classes for JAMB would definitely fail? 'Cos Paul was like a remedial coach, a lesson-teacher! [/size]

---

Joh 14:6  Jesus said to him, I am the Way and the Truth and the Life; no one comes to the Father except by (through) Me.

Coming through Jesus to the Father is like writing JAMB to gain admission to a Nigerian University.  Jesus was the embodiment of God in human form, and there are many who indeed serve him without even knowing Him. He did not establish any religion called "Christianity".

Rather, he taught us unconditional love, died for us and took away our sins and then sent us to teach the same to everyone else, but with the assistance of the Holy Spirit as our guide.

Do you see all those red phrases and words above? The red phrases above are not only indicating Christians, but EVERYBODY! Jesus sent everyone to proclaim his message, His Gospel, but not everyone is going. Some said they are Christians, but they are not going. Some said they will not go, but they are going all the same.

Mat 21:28  What do you think? There was a man who had two sons. He came to the first and said, Son, go and work today in the vineyard.
Mat 21:29  And he answered, I will not; but afterward he changed his mind and went.
Mat 21:30  Then the man came to the second and said the same [thing]. And he replied, I will [go], sir; but he did not go.
Mat 21:31  Which of the two did the will of the father? They replied, The first one. Jesus said to them, Truly I tell you, the tax collectors and the harlots will get into the kingdom of heaven before you.

He is more concerned with the going than the nomenclature called "Christianity". If you are a Christian and you did not go, you just wasted your time. Simple!

---

Did you read what KunleOshob wrote on this thread? Let me quote him as he quotes the Bible in turn. See Christ talking about the final day.

Matthew 25:31-40:
The Final Judgment

   31 “But when the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit upon his glorious throne. 32 All the nations will be gathered in his presence, and he will separate the people as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33 He will place the sheep at his right hand and the goats at his left.

   34 “Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father, inherit the Kingdom prepared for you from the creation of the world. 35 For I was hungry, and you fed me. I was thirsty, and you gave me a drink. I was a stranger, and you invited me into your home. 36 I was unclothed, and you gave me clothing. I was sick, and you cared for me. I was in prison, and you visited me.’

   37 “Then these righteous ones will reply, ‘Lord, when did we ever see you hungry and feed you? Or thirsty and give you something to drink? 38 Or a stranger and show you hospitality? Or unclothed and give you clothing? 39 When did we ever see you sick or in prison and visit you?’

   40 “And the King will say, ‘I tell you the truth, when you did it to one of the least of these my brothers and sisters, you were doing it to me!’

We are often too bothered with words like "Body of Christ", "Christian", etc. when the real substance is still there! 

If you are a Christian (I guess you are), you better hold on to your own faith and not be bothered about how others are getting to heaven or not!

Let me leave you with something else that Jesus said about that. I quote the MESSAGE version for easy reading.

Mat 20:1  "God's kingdom is like an estate manager who went out early in the morning to hire workers for his vineyard.
Mat 20:2  They agreed on a wage of a dollar a day, and went to work.
Mat 20:3  "Later, about nine o'clock, the manager saw some other men hanging around the town square unemployed.
Mat 20:4 He told them to go to work in his vineyard and he would pay them a fair wage.
Mat 20:5  They went. "He did the same thing at noon, and again at three o'clock.
Mat 20:6  At five o'clock he went back and found still others standing around. He said, 'Why are you standing around all day doing nothing?
Mat 20:7  ' "They said, 'Because no one hired us.' "He told them to go to work in his vineyard.
Mat 20:8  "When the day's work was over, the owner of the vineyard instructed his foreman, 'Call the workers in and pay them their wages. Start with the last hired and go on to the first.'
Mat 20:9  "Those hired at five o'clock came up and were each given a dollar.
Mat 20:10  [size=18pt]When those who were hired first saw that, they assumed they would get far more[/size]. But they got the same, each of them one dollar.
Mat 20:11  Taking the dollar, they groused angrily to the manager,
Mat 20:12 '[size=20pt]These last workers put in only one easy hour, and you just made them equal to us, who slaved all day under a scorching sun[/size].'
Mat 20:13  "He replied to the one speaking for the rest, [size=20pt]'Friend, I haven't been unfair. We agreed on the wage of a dollar, didn't we?[/size]
Mat 20:14  So take it and go. I decided to give to the one who came last the same as you.
Mat 20:15  [size=18pt]Can't I do what I want with my own money?[/size] Are you going to get stingy because I am generous?'
[size=24pt]Mat 20:16  "Here it is again, the Great Reversal: many of the first ending up last, and the last first." [/size]

babaearly: God, it's not fair that I lived as a Christian and you are rewarding me the same way with these filthy guys? 

Meditate on those scriptures very well and see if it is your business how others get to heaven, or otherwise whether you were there when God was working his way into their hearts regardless of their worldview because they had a heart for Christ, or otherwise maybe you should only hold fast to the INDIVIDUAL agreement that you had with God in the name of Christianity, and run your own race.

If you have more to say, babaearly, I will return.

and some addenda are

Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?' Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!'
  (Matthew 7: 21-23)

Enigma:

Good piece, InesQor. Also, Jesus said:

. . . whoever does the will of my Father in heaven is my brother and sister and mother

(Matthew 12:50)

True, bro! That one did not even come to mind very quickly. Thanks!!

God is more concerned with your heart's orientation than all these religions that people are bandying around. I am afraid for many Christians on the judgment day, they won't be condemned for their past sin (because it's all wiped away) but because they did not have a heart for Christ. 

Mat 20:16  "Here it is again, the Great Reversal: many of the first ending up last, and the last first."

P.S. Everybody, I apologize for the Large RED letters in my previous post. I was a little exasperated as I typed.

and finally this is a very explanatory piece by Enigma

Enigma:

Hi Petres_007

I understand your concern about this topic; in fact, you will notice that the opening post mentioned that Billy Graham's statement has been controversial (actually, that is an understatement because many have vilified and even condemned Graham for it).

However, the interesting thing is that this view point is actually quite common in traditional christianity. In fact it is the doctrine of the Catholic church, as far as I understand it; it is also a wide held view in the Anglican tradition. I have also read that people like C S Lewis and John Wesley held this view.

Before going on, I need to make a clarification: this view, for which we may use the broad term 'inclusivism' is different from 'universalism' --- which is another kettle of fish altogether.

Now back to the point: there are many ways to look at it BUT[/B] always remember that as Christians we hold that Jesus is the [b]only way. There is no other way!. Having established that, let us look at a couple of scenarios:

[size=14pt]1. Jesus is the door ---- everyone must go through that door.
2. Jesus is the gatekeeper --- everyone must get the approval of that gatekeeper to go in.
2(a) You are going to a party; they have a tough bouncer at the gate; but he is your friend; therefore before you leave home you are assured of entry. Mr. A is not a friend of the bouncer; he has no IV; he goes along nonetheless; for some reason the bouncer lets him in - telling him, "yesterday I saw you giving that blind man N100, I thought that was sweet of you"; or Miss C goes along, the bouncer says "oh I saw you smile nicely at an old lady yesterday, I thought that was nice, do come in".

3. Nobody comes to the Father except through Jesus: looked at another way, nobody comes to the Father except on Jesus' say-so; so supposing Jesus says to a chap who was a Moslem on this earth, "you can come in"! Compare this to the parable of the wedding feast ----- all those who were then invited from the street, after some of the original guests had messed up, were they originally invited? Were they in the "inner circle".[/size]

The summary: as Christians, we know, at least should know, that we are certainly of the "inner circle"; we have assurance of salvation. That is all we can say ------ as for those in the "outer circle", we trust the Judge of all the earth to do right. That is all we are saying.

I thank you Inesqor.

There is much that you have written that is of immense value.

Is there more?

I will like you to be done before I revert with my thoughts.

Cheers.

Really.