Just being curious.

Without baptism u re not a christian.dont forget Jesus told nicodemus unles u r born of WATER n d spirit u can not enter d kingdom of God

Common now Chukwudi you know different.

What water baptism did the thief on the cross next to Jesus go through? yet Jesus promised him he would be with Him together in paradise that day.

The woman caught in adultery. Did Jesus tell her "go and be baptized in order to escape hell"? No. He simply said "go and sin no more". Water Baptism is a part of the faith, a symbolic act. It is by no means a requirement to be saved.

chukwudi44:

Without baptism u re not a christian.dont forget Jesus told nicodemus unles u r born of WATER n d spirit u can not enter d kingdom of God

The water there means the water from the amniotic sac, the thin innermost membranous sac enclosing the developing embryo of higher vertebrates (reptiles, birds and mammals). When a woman is about to go into labour, they say "her water broke". It's the amniotic sac.

Being born of water means to be born as a normal human being. Clones are not included.

In other words, what Jesus was saying is that after
1. Being born of water (i.e. born as a human being)
2. You also need to be born AGAIN i.e. born of the spirit as well (born from above i.e. live your life as a spiritual entity that has complete and worshipful respect and accord for God, and in tune with God)

As Jesoul said correctly, baptism is a symbolic act. Have a lovely week ahead, bro.

Water baptism is not merely symbolic,it is also salvific.why on earth did u think JESUS Was baptised? Althougt beign witout original sin never needed baptism yet got baptised 2 show us d way .matt 3:15 Jesus said "IN THIS WAY WE SHALL DO ALL THAT GOD REQUIRES" .Why on earth do u think people were baptised on behalf of d dead

Water baptism is important if you truly want to live a Christ-like life.

chukwudi44:

Water baptism is not merely symbolic,it is also salvific.why on earth did u think JESUS Was baptised? Althougt beign witout original sin never needed baptism yet got baptised 2 show us d way .matt 3:15 Jesus said "IN THIS WAY WE SHALL DO ALL THAT GOD REQUIRES" .Why on earth do u think people were baptised on behalf of d dead

Chuks the man, if you answer my first question, I promise to answer yours above.
 

JeSoul:

What water baptism did the thief on the cross next to Jesus go through? yet Jesus promised him he would be with Him together in paradise that day.

How can Jesus promise him entrance when its obvious he was not yet baptised?

Nope you dont go to hell for not being baptised with water.

JeSoul:

  How can Jesus promise him entrance when its obvious he was not yet baptised? 

1: Because i believe Jesus saw his heart, knew how determined and ready to accept Christ at that particular time.
2: Because Jesus knew there was no way he could have been allowed off the cross to have himself baptized before being crucified.


@topic

Going to hell? uhm, that i can't say, but not seeing the kingdom of God is certained said by Jesus himself.

honeric01:

1: Because i believe Jesus saw his heart, knew how determined and ready to accept Christ at that particular time.

the question was for Chukwudi now . . .

2: Because Jesus knew there was no way he could have been allowed off the cross to have himself baptized before being crucified.

You should've stopped at #1

@topic, Going to hell? uhm, that i can't say, but not seeing the kingdom of God is certained said by Jesus himself.

Can you post the relevant scripture verses? thanks.

Jesoul how come cornelius n his househould were baptised even after having received d holy spirit

JeSoul:

the question was for Chukwudi now . . .
You should've stopped at #1
Can you post the relevant scripture verses? thanks.

Read John 3 vs 1-6 or 10.

honeric01:

Read John 3 vs 1-6 or 10.

Ojoro. Post it here so we can all see and discuss now . . .

chukwudi44:

Jesoul how come cornelius n his househould were baptised even after having received d holy spirit

Oh don't get me wrong. Baptism is very important to the christian faith and is a symbolic act as you rightly noted even Jesus himself took part in.

What we're debating is whether baptism is a requirement to get into heaven. So again, how is that theif on the cross going to be with Jesus in paradise if indeed baptism is a requirement to be saved?

While d is no biblical proof d thief was never baptised.Even d dead stil had 2 b baptised as in 1 cor15:29

JeSoul:

Ojoro. Post it here so we can all see and discuss now . . .

How? which one bi ojoro again? don't you have a bible there?

In acts 19 :1-6 st paul still had 2 rebaptise some christians even though de already had d baptism of John ,why on earth was dat necessary ?

chukwudi44:

While d is no biblical proof d thief was never baptised.

Common Chuks, he was on the cross ready to be killed for being a lifelong criminal. It is obvious he was not a "christian" and hence was never baptised.

Even d dead stil had 2 b baptised as in 1 cor15:29

 1 Cor 15:29 Now if there is no resurrection, what will those do who are baptized for the dead? If the dead are not raised at all, why are people baptized for them?
 
Paul was not endorsing the practice, and yes neither was he censuring it, he mentioned it while making another argument. It was being practised by that[i] particular[/i] audience and there is no evidence elsewhere in the scriptures that any other church was involved in it. Neither is there any evidence of any of the apostles or disciples or even Jesus Himself teaching such a practice.

But for kicks, even if you want to read that verse as an institution of the said practice, lets assume a christian dies and was never baptised, is it your position that if the living survivors do not perform the baptisimal rites on their behalf, they will not see heaven?

---

chukwudi44:

In acts 19 :1-6 st paul still had 2 rebaptise some christians even though de already had d baptism of John ,why on earth was dat necessary ?

Paul didn't just "re-baptize" them. He baptised them into the name of Jesus - they had previously been holding onto John the Baptists'. And again, I have not said that baptism is not important, I have said we're discussing whether it is a requirement to get into heaven.

honeric01:

How? which one bi ojoro again? don't you have a bible there?

  John 3:5 "Jesus answered, "I tell you the truth, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless he is born of water and the Spirit."

  ^"Born of water" - frequently used to support the "you must be baptised to be saved" doctrine. But what does "born of water" mean? In the entire paragraph Jesus is speaking to Nicodemus using allegorical and figurative terms - but suddenly when Jesus mentions "born of water" we want to flip from the context, and read only that particular part literally? ojoro now lol.

  Now its your turn to look up something. Use bible.com and check out any commentary you like and there'll be sufficient explanation on that verse.

@honeric01: You may want to read my earlier comment about being born of water.

InesQor:

The water there means the water from the amniotic sac, the thin innermost membranous sac enclosing the developing embryo of higher vertebrates (reptiles, birds and mammals). When a woman is about to go into labour, they say "her water broke". It's the amniotic sac.

Being born of water means to be born as a normal human being. Clones are not included.

In other words, what Jesus was saying is that after
1. Being born of water (i.e. born as a human being)
2. You also need to be born AGAIN i.e. born of the spirit as well (born from above i.e. live your life as a spiritual entity that has complete and worshipful respect and accord for God, and in tune with God)

As Jesoul said correctly, baptism is a symbolic act. Have a lovely week ahead, bro.

JeSoul:

  John 3:5 "Jesus answered, "I tell you the truth, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless he is born of water and the Spirit."

  ^"Born of water" - frequently used to support the "you must be baptised to be saved" doctrine. But what does "born of water" mean? In the entire paragraph Jesus is speaking to Nicodemus using allegorical and figurative terms - but suddenly when Jesus mentions "born of water" we want to flip from the context, and read only that particular part literally? ojoro now lol.

  Now its your turn to look up something. Use bible.com and check out any commentary you like and there'll be sufficient explanation on that verse.

so what did Jesus mean by born of water?. . . . . . ur assertions are FALSE.

1. it is a Christian requirement to get baptised by water. what u are preaching is a STRANGE gospel.

2. The thief on the cross had no chance of receiving baptism. . . .all he did was to ask for mercy which he received.

3. why should anyone call himself a christian if he/she cannot obey the simple instruction of Christ to get baptised?. . . why bother with the whole of christianity if u cannot get baptised?

JeSoul:

Common now Chukwudi you know different.

What water baptism did the thief on the cross next to Jesus go through? yet Jesus promised him he would be with Him together in paradise that day.

The woman caught in adultery. Did Jesus tell her "go and be baptized in order to escape hell"? No. He simply said "go and sin no more". Water Baptism is a part of the faith, a symbolic act. It is by no means a requirement to be saved.

thats another apparent contradiction in the bible. seems like goodwill can't save a faithful.

[size=15pt]Please can someone prove to me from the Bible how being born of water refers to water baptism? ?[/size]

Is that an assumption we are all making (I hear this is a fundamental Catholic belief)?

Joh 3:4  Nicodemus said to Him, How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter his mother's womb again and be born?
Joh 3:5  Jesus answered, I assure you, most solemnly I tell you, unless a man is born of water and [even] the Spirit, he cannot [ever] enter the kingdom of God. [Ezek. 36:25-27.]
Joh 3:6  What is born of [from] the flesh is flesh [of the physical is physical]; and what is born of the Spirit is spirit.

Why would Jesus be replying Nicodemus' question about answering the womb AGAIN to be born, and then Jesus says unless a man is born of the water and the spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God? Doesn't this show that Jesus' reply was with reference to being born when you are already old?

Why would Jesus continue verse 5 by saying whatever is born of FLESH is FLESH and what is born of Spirit is spirit, unless the water refers to the first birth and the Spirit to the second birth?

Is it convenient for us all to ignore verses 4 and 6 and just assume that verse 5 can be isolated and given a private interpretation?



The other place where being born again is mentioned, it lends more credence also to the physical THEN spiritual birth complex. I don't believe this has anything to do with baptism!

1Pe 1:23  You have been regenerated (born again), not from a mortal origin (seed, spermatozoa), but from one that is immortal by the ever living and lasting Word of God.

So, here's a question: is John's Baptism of water of the same spiritual relevance as the Christian Baptism of water e.g. as done by Paul (for a couple of people) and by Peter?

If it is not, then how could Jesus be referring to the Christian Baptism to Nicodemus when it had not yet been instituted since the sacrifice was not yet done?

Without baptism if u like pray 4rm now 2 d end of d world .u r not . Xtian.That baptism actually saves is echoed by 1 pet 3:20-21", THE FEW PEOPLE IN D BOAT 8 IN ALL WERE SAVED BY WATER WHICH WAS A SYMBOL POINTING 2 BAPTISM WHICH NOW SAVES U

Water baptism is to be done by every christian. If It was not important the bible would have said so, even Jesus got baptized in water. There was no time for that man that was crusified with Jesus to be baptized, he was already dying. Every living christian that has the all the time now, should get baptized and stop asking foolish questions.
1 Peter 3:21
    The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:
Matthew 28:19
    Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:

Mark 16:16
    He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

Baptism is only a symbol of the death, burial, and resurrection of Christ.

InesQor:



[size=15pt]Please can someone prove to me from the Bible how being born of water refers to water baptism? ?[/size]

Is that an assumption we are all making (I hear this is a fundamental Catholic belief)?

Joh 3:4  Nicodemus said to Him, How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter his mother's womb again and be born?
Joh 3:5  Jesus answered, I assure you, most solemnly I tell you, unless a man is born of water and [even] the Spirit, he cannot [ever] enter the kingdom of God. [Ezek. 36:25-27.]
Joh 3:6  What is born of [from] the flesh is flesh [of the physical is physical]; and what is born of the Spirit is spirit.

Why would Jesus be replying Nicodemus' question about answering the womb AGAIN to be born, and then Jesus says unless a man is born of the water and the spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God? Doesn't this show that Jesus' reply was with reference to being born when you are already old?

Why would Jesus continue verse 5 by saying whatever is born of FLESH is FLESH and what is born of Spirit is spirit, unless the water refers to the first birth and the Spirit to the second birth?

You could as well answer ur own question urself.

1. if being born of water does not imply water baptism. . . . . .what then does it imply?

2. he that is born of flesh does NOT know God. . . . .he that knows God must worship Him in spirit and in truth (john 4:24). . , . . .how do u worship God in spirit and in truth? there are two ways . . . . , (b) and (c) . . . .but (a) comes first
a. repent, believe and be saved
b. faith. . . . . .for without faith it is impossible to please God (hebrews 11:6)
c. holiness . . . . . , without which no man shall see God (hebrews 12:14)

. . , .he that is born of spirit worships God through faith . . . .now ur faith in God requires u to get baptised by water as a mark of salvation. disobedience to this creed is simply FAITHLESSNESS.

3. Jesus was not teaching Nicodemus how to get saved when u are old. but was teaching us all . . . . .how to get saved at any age of our lives.

Is it convenient for us all to ignore verses 4 and 6 and just assume that verse 5 can be isolated and given a private interpretation?

verse 3 says: 3In reply Jesus declared, "I tell you the truth, no one can see the kingdom of God unless he is born again."

what does born-again mean? . . , .is the definition of born-again exempt from baptism?. . .No.
Remember that Jesus commanded that the gospel be preached and that whosoever accepts the gift of salvation be baptised IMMEDIATELY . . . Jesus also attaches believing the gospel to water baptism saying that whosoever believes and is baptised will be saved(mark 16:15-16). . . . .this my dear is a step of faith that shows a significant leap into the family of God.

verse 6 says: 6Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit[b] gives birth to spirit.

Flesh here denotes Sin (life without God) . . .while the spirit denotes fellowship with God (a life with God)

The other place where being born again is mentioned, it lends more credence also to the physical THEN spiritual birth complex. I don't believe this has anything to do with baptism!

1Pe 1:23  You have been regenerated (born again), not from a mortal origin (seed, spermatozoa), but from one that is immortal by the ever living and lasting Word of God.

u are simply isolating this verse , . . .the question is how did this person become born-again in the first place?. . . , by simply believing the gospel?. . . .what steps did he/she take?

So, here's a question: is John's Baptism of water of the same spiritual relevance as the Christian Baptism of water e.g. as done by Paul (for a couple of people) and by Peter?

John's baptism was a call to REPENTANCE. the baptism of peter and paul was a call to SALVATION through JC.

If it is not, then how could Jesus be referring to the Christian Baptism to Nicodemus when it had not yet been instituted since the sacrifice was not yet done?

should Jesus preach the gospel before the sacrifice or after the sacrifice? . . , the things recorded in the bible about Jesus, were they before or after the sacrifice?

noetic16:

so what did Jesus mean by born of water?. . . . . . your assertions are FALSE.

1. it is a Christian requirement to get baptised by water. what u are preaching is a STRANGE gospel.

2. The thief on the cross had no chance of receiving baptism. . . .all he did was to ask for mercy which he received.

3. why should anyone call himself a christian if he/she cannot obey the simple instruction of Christ to get baptised?. . . why bother with the whole of christianity if u cannot get baptised?

  Noetic, I'll ask you the same question I asked Chukwudi who hasn't had the chance to respond yet:

Lets assume a christian dies and was never baptised, is it your position that he/she will not see heaven? but will instead go to hell? (this is the question of the topic) Your response to this question will help in furthering this debate. Cheers.

Jesoul ur question is irrelevant since one is not a xtian unless baptised.in acts 2:37-38 d multitude asked peter wat must we do 2 b saved? Peter replied all of u must repent n b BAPTISED ,God ll 4gv ur sins n u ll rc d HS

I'll try to keep my response concise so its easy for others to follow and understand. Noetic this is to you as well.

1. Christian doctrine is usually not derived from just one verse. Scriptures work hand in hand with other scriptures and we take the bible as a total body of work - not plucking single scriptures and basing entire doctrines on it - especially doctrines of this magnitude.
Now countless times when Jesus teaches, admonishes He said "go and sin no more" "give up all your possessions" "leave your father and mother and follow me". In all this the underlying point is to turn away from the world and to God - in order to be saved. So it is not the giving up of possessions that saves - but the turning to God.

In the same way baptism is an act of obedience to Christ who commanded that we be baptised - hence it is important. However, it is not the act of baptism itself that saves - but instead the repentance. The physical act of baptism is simply the manifestation of the repentance. I will explain . . .


2. Acts 2:38 "Peter replied, "Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit." So what was Peter saying here? that baptism is a requirement to get into heaven? All thru the subsequent books - Romans, Corinthians, Phillipians, Hebrews, James - we hear Paul and the other writers endlessly harp on Faith, that results in good works.

  We all know that we are saved first to last by Faith (Rm 1:17). So why did Peter not mention Faith at all? we know faith is the foundation not baptism. Or are they all preaching different gospels from each other? Infact the scriptures say "if you believe in your heart and confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord, you will be saved" - where is the mention of you must be baptized?

---

The bottomline is that all of scripture should be read and understood and applied evenly. Not basing entire doctrines pertaining to salvation on single verses while ignoring other verses that contradict your conclusion. Or else we have this problem of different methods and means of salvation: Jesus said simply believe, Paul says its faith, James - works, now Peter repent and be baptized. Is there confusion in the word? or is it our poor grasp of it?

Without faith, it is impossible to please God!

Where is ur faith if u refuse 2 obey a simple biblical injunction?

Nezan:

Without faithbaptism, it is impossible to please God!

chukwudi44:

Where is your faith if u refuse 2 obey a simple biblical injunction?

So is it the Faith that saves? or the baptism? is the baptism not merely a response to the faith that is already there? and not infact the requirement for salvation?