YES most large/mega churches are biblical and they are not support to have limit to the strength of there membership.

i just can't conted to say some thing here, these so called institutional
churches, ain;t doing what christ ask us to do, "make deciples" i no longer
go to church because each time i go i here hereses, ranging from tithe and
offering to manner they conduct church services.i have my fellowship with
Full Gospel Business Men Fellowship still love NCCF it was nice experience
when i was a corp member. i can even put it to churches that they (all of them)
can't do 10% of what NCCF do. the worst of it now is that they now have
redeem corper, winners corper etc to reduce what God is using NCCF to do
if you know these so called GOs tell them to leave the corp members alone to serve in NCCF!

Any amount can be termed large. In 9ja many churches are crowded like market square

wyt:

i just can't conted to say some thing here, these so called institutional
churches, ain;t doing what christ ask us to do, "make deciples"  i no longer
go to church because each time i go i here hereses, ranging from tithe and
offering to manner they conduct church services.i have my fellowship with
Full Gospel Business Men Fellowship still love NCCF it was nice experience
when i was a corp member. i can even put it to churches that they (all of them)
can't do 10% of what NCCF do. the worst of it now is that they now have
redeem corper, winners corper etc to reduce what God is using NCCF to do
if you know these so called GOs tell them to leave the corp members alone to serve in  NCCF!

Most of those businesses Churches are run like Corporations and they are all about the NUMBERS so when  they see a youth corp thingy about to pour "sand sand" in their garri, they have to move to neutralize it and nip it in the bud. They are all about the BRAND my friends.

@davidylan, reading thru some of your posts,i think that you make God seem like a God who doesn't want us to be happy. Our goal as christians is to serve God with all we are.That includes all we have. I believe that having a better spiritual life as a christian means that we are serving the most high. God is a consuming fire but also a very loving God who wants the best for us all.
@Jesoul,you say you don't go to houses of strangers.Why is someone in your church a stranger?I take it that after service in church,you pick your bible,look for your friends,chat with them and off you go. If everyone in church does that,then we all remain strangers in the house of God. The problem is not the size of the church,it is the attitude of people in the church.
The bible does not in anyway condemn large congregations. We should stop trying to twist scriptures to fit our own ideologies.

N.I.Gboi:
@Jesoul,you say you don't go to houses of strangers.Why is someone in your church a stranger? I take it that after service in church,you pick your bible,look for your friends,chat with them and off you go. If everyone in church does that,then we all remain strangers in the house of God. The problem is not the size of the church,it is the attitude of people in the church.
The bible does not in anyway condemn large congregations. We should stop trying to twist scriptures to fit our own ideologies.

  Because I do not know them personally. People that claim to be christians are plenty everywhere. I'm not going to someone's house just because they have claimed to be a christian.

  You're absolutely right "atittude" matters but if you've read through the thread, you must've seen that it is the size of churches these days that brews a lot of the problems we have. Again I have continually challenged people to show me from the bible how large churches are profitable - when infact we see just the exact opposite.

---

N.I.Gboi:

@davidylan, reading thru some of your posts,i think that you make God seem like a God who doesn't want us to be happy. Our goal as christians is to serve God with all we are.That includes all we have. I believe that having a better spiritual life as a christian means that we are serving the most high. God is a consuming fire but also a very loving God who wants the best for us all.

I don't think David insinuated anywhere we should be living miserable lives as christians. What he is speaking against is the "prosperity movement" and "word of faith" crowd that preach blessing blessing blessing and no sacrifice. Yes we serve the Most High God, but nowhere are we promised we will live a fairy tale life - infact just the opposite again, we are told we should die to ourselves and pick up our cross.

U see. . .there's nothing wrong in having a big church but the main thing there is this: do u have a message for the people from God? I believe before u go out to preach to people, get a message from God cos you don't know who he wants to reach just like the case with Peter and d converted 3,000 but so unfortunate that many pastors prefer to preach an ear tickling message in order not to offend the so called big men in the church. . .they are biblical if people's hunger for christ are met spiritually

ogajim:

Most of those businesses Churches are run like Corporations and they are all about the NUMBERS so when  they see a youth corp thingy about to pour "sand sand" in their garri, they have to move to neutralize it and nip it in the bud. They are all about the BRAND my friends.

Some of these churches we see as big churches today also have these cell fellowship structures in place. In fact, the leadership of one that i attend always emphasizes on the importance of being a member of the house fellowship as its virtually impossible for him to know the state of the flock (members), but the house fellowship structure provides that platform, and you can exhort, ask questions etc. In the old testament, when Moses was leading the entire people of Israel, his father in-law told him to appoint leaders over the people (leaders of ten, leaders of hundreds, of thousands and so on), it all makes the job easier and allows for easy leadership-followership experience.

sleekymag:

Some of these churches we see as big churches today also have these cell fellowship structures in place. In fact, the leadership of one that i attend always emphasizes on the importance of being a member of the house fellowship as its virtually impossible for him to know the state of the flock (members), but the house fellowship structure provides that platform, and you can exhort, ask questions etc. In the old testament, when Moses was leading the entire people of Israel, his father in-law told him to appoint leaders over the people (leaders of ten, leaders of hundreds, of thousands and so on), it all makes the job easier and allows for easy leadership-followership experience.

Sleekymag, you obviously didn't read the first page. House fellowships have been discussed throughout the thread in fact

KunleOshob:

The large size of churches we have today actually don't have any scriptural basis, however i would not condem it as wrong but true fellowship is lacking in churches of such large size. In the early churches they used to share meals, there was always feasting which formed an essential part of the fellowship but today it is completely missing except for the occassional holy communion were tiny rations of bread and "wine"[as opposed to full meals] are given out in observation of Jesus commandment. The mordern church as tried to re-enact the close knit fellowship which the early church had through house fellowships and house cells but the sharing of meals is mostly missing in these fellowships and some of them still collect "offerings" which they re-mit to the church for what ever purpose. But large congregations [not churches] are not entirely unscriptural as Jesus used to have several open air sermons in which thousands were recorded to attend. A very obvious example was when Jesus fed 5,000 men after one of his sermons. In summary i won't condenm large church congregations as long as they provide a platform for true fellowship, but then again large congregations are unnecessary as i don't see any benefit in it for the congregation themselves apart from the intituitional church that stands to make more money from a larger congregation.

JeSoul:

Sleekymag, you obviously didn't read the first page. House fellowships have been discussed throughout the thread in fact

JeSoul, i actually went through the whole thread though i must have skipped KunleOshob's analysis which u just posted. However, his conclusion (first highlighted bold below) appear to answer the question while his own personal thoughts (second highlighted bold below) is contradictory. It appears he just wants to justify his normal bias against large churches,

The large size of churches we have today actually don't have any scriptural basis, however i would not condem it as wrong but true fellowship is lacking in churches of such large size. In the early churches they used to share meals, there was always feasting which formed an essential part of the fellowship but today it is completely missing except for the occassional holy communion were tiny rations of bread and "wine"[as opposed to full meals] are given out in observation of Jesus commandment. The mordern church as tried to re-enact the close knit fellowship which the early church had through house fellowships and house cells but the sharing of meals is mostly missing in these fellowships and some of them still collect "offerings" which they re-mit to the church for what ever purpose. But large congregations [not churches] are not entirely unscriptural as Jesus used to have several open air sermons in which thousands were recorded to attend. A very obvious example was when Jesus fed 5,000 men after one of his sermons. In summary i won't condenm large church congregations as long as they provide a platform for true fellowship, but then again large congregations are unnecessary as i don't see any benefit in it for the congregation themselves apart from the intituitional church that stands to make more money from a larger congregation.

@sleekymag: Can you please tell me the benefits of a large organization church to the church members? List only benefits that can not be obtained in a church of a smaller size, say one-third the size of the large church.

JeSoul:


  Because I do not know them personally. People that claim to be christians are plenty everywhere. I'm not going to someone's house just because they have claimed to be a christian.

  You're absolutely right "atittude" matters but if you've read through the thread, you must've seen that it is the size of churches these days that brews a lot of the problems we have. Again I have continually challenged people to show me from the bible how large churches are profitable - when infact we see just the exact opposite.

---

 I don't think David insinuated anywhere we should be living miserable lives as christians. What he is speaking against is the "prosperity movement" and "word of faith" crowd that preach blessing blessing blessing and no sacrifice. Yes we serve the Most High God, but nowhere are we promised we will live a fairy tale life - infact just the opposite again, we are told we should die to ourselves and pick up our cross.

@jesoul,my question is why you don't know them personally?We are talking of true christianity here,right?Jesus went to the house of publicans,tax collectors and other 'wrong' people.did he know them personally?Yes there are many sinners in church today,but what makes you think the other person is an unbeliever when you've made no move to know them?
Maybe i misjudged what david said,but correct me if am wrong,he seemingly down played God being a loving God when talking about God being a consuming fire.(think it was somewhere about the cinema church)

Sorry guys, i kind of agree with the small group or house fellowship tin, i tink dis is y i am mostly lost in thought in church but grabs alot in bible study. however, this is also subject to who is delivery the sermon. so if the sunday school teacher for the day doesnt have a message for the day am left hungry and dry.

Anyway can someone advise on any good family or house fellowship i can meet real born again brethren? Because even though 3,000 got converted from Peter's message, not all of them will remain dedicated unless noctured by a close and reliable person in a decipleship training.

sleekymag:

JeSoul, i actually went through the whole thread

oh okay my bad sawwrry

though i must have skipped KunleOshob's analysis which u just posted. However, his conclusion (first highlighted bold below) appear to answer the question while his own personal thoughts (second highlighted bold below) is contradictory. It appears he just wants to justify his normal bias against large churches,

  I see what you mean and I understand. I believe what Kunle (and many others including myself) are trying to say is that large churches in and of themselves are not wrong - but - in large churches it is almost impossible to fulfill the very purpose for church in the first place - which is intimate fellowship between believers. Not for crusades, praises and worship, offerings etc.

  But the very purpose of church as we see in the very examples of the early church was coming together, sharing in communion and meals, building each other up, serving each other, discussing the bible in depth, and using our gifts to help each other.

The whole point of this thread is that the above ^^ is almost impossible to do effectively in a large church setting. And in light of that, what is the point of having a big church in the first place? I hope this makes sense. Thanks!

N.I.Gboi:

@jesoul,my question is why you don't know them personally?

  Because I only see them on sundays? its not possible for me to know 1000+ people intimately. I haven't even finished knowing my own big family well self, talk less of others.

We are talking of true christianity here,right? Jesus went to the house of publicans,tax collectors and other 'wrong' people.did he know them personally? Yes there are many sinners in church today,but what makes you think the other person is an unbeliever when you've made no move to know them?

  My brother, you're mixing several things here.

-Church is not for the unsaved. The scriptures are so clear about this. Church is for believers to come together in fellowship and build each other up. It is the modernization of church that has turned it into an all-purpose social gathering for all kinds of people.

-Outside of church, I have zero problem associating with whomever. We are afterall to live like Jesus and be a friend to the destitute and hopeless. We are called to make disciples of all men. And after they are saved - this is when they should be going to church.

Maybe i misjudged what david said,but correct me if am wrong,he seemingly down played God being a loving God when talking about God being a consuming fire.(think it was somewhere about the cinema church)

  Okay I think I know where you're refering to now. He said that in response to an article of a church that meets at a movie theater and all they were talking about was "God loves us and wants us to have a good, comfortable life etc etc" the typical prosperity gospel type of mentality. And David was simply trying to show the other side of God - that He is also a consuming fire. Hope that makes sense? thanks!

The unsaved are meant to be reached OUTSIDE the church, not brought into church to increase attendance, and then cajoled with an altar call and threatened with hell fire into making a decision, and then told to keep paying 10% of their income to guarantee their continuity in God.

It's putting the cart before the horse. I pity the horse, I guess.

InesQor:

The unsaved are meant to be reached OUTSIDE the church,   

True but the church can also serve the purpose if done with sincerity.

@J-SOUL,

I dont know what you would define as large or mega church, but i do believe you can make a family out church of say 400 members, the problem is more of attitude like somebody noted above. True the bigger an organisation the more difficult it is to co-ordinate, but that is why you have clusters or cell group. I do not support my view with reference from the bible cos its just personal. I believe there is so much more to gain if one have access to a larger and more diverese body of christians than an isolated group of say 10-20 people. Agreed the smaller the church, the stronger the bonding and sharing.

InesQor:

The unsaved are meant to be reached OUTSIDE the church, not brought into church to increase attendance, and then cajoled with an altar call and threatened with hell fire into making a decision, and then told to keep paying 10% of their income to guarantee their continuity in God.

It's putting the cart before the horse. I pity the horse, I guess.

Absolutely correct !

N.I.Gboi:

@davidylan, reading thru some of your posts,i think that you make God seem like a God who doesn't want us to be happy. Our goal as christians is to serve God with all we are.That includes all we have. I believe that having a better spiritual life as a christian means that we are serving the most high. God is a consuming fire but also a very loving God who wants the best for us all.

JeSoul has already done justice to this but let me add a few things.

1. There is NO WHERE in the bible where God promises you "happiness" . . . rather He promised you joy. You must note though that so many men in the bible had "joy" even in difficult circumstances such as Joseph and the early christians.

2. The "God" portrayed today in our churches is one to whom we owe no responsibility. Rather He seems to exist simply to give us "happiness", wealth, fame and a good life. The same God who is love is also one who did not spare liars like ananias and saphira.

3. You imply that having a "better spiritual life" means we are serving the most high . . . i hope you understand that Paul and co had better spiritual lives and yet suffered want, suffered severe persecution even unto death and were imperilled severally.

^^^ Your profile picture is really cool, Davidylan. Thumbs up!

JeSoul:

  Because I only see them on sundays? its not possible for me to know 1000+ people intimately. I haven't even finished knowing my own big family well self, talk less of others.
  My brother, you're mixing several things here.

-Church is not for the unsaved. The scriptures are so clear about this. Church is for believers to come together in fellowship and build each other up. It is the modernization of church that has turned it into an all-purpose social gathering for all kinds of people.

-Outside of church, I have zero problem associating with whomever. We are afterall to live like Jesus and be a friend to the destitute and hopeless. We are called to make disciples of all men. And after they are saved - this is when they should be going to church.
  Okay I think I know where you're refering to now. He said that in response to an article of a church that meets at a movie theater and all they were talking about was "God loves us and wants us to have a good, comfortable life etc etc" the typical prosperity gospel type of mentality. And David was simply trying to show the other side of God - that He is also a consuming fire. Hope that makes sense? thanks!

you don't have to know all the folks in ur church,what of the few who may be around you at times?They may live around you,work around or do other stuff around.That they come to church only on sundays don't matter.You can encourage to grow their christian life,invite them to bible study,and stuff. Who knows you might be the person who they need. IMO
true church isn't for the sinners because it's supposed to be d body of christ.But if a sinner happens to be in church,it is our duty to help lead him to christ.
There have always been sinners in and around the church even in d time of paul.
It is not because of modernization that unbelievers are in church,it is because we the church are not doing what we ought to do.
I do agree that small fellowships are necessary,but i also believe that larger gatherings are also good and the bible doesn't say anything against it.

lol thanks inesQor

N.I.Gboi:

true church isn't for the sinners because it's supposed to be d body of christ.But if a sinner happens to be in church,it is our duty to help lead him to christ.
There have always been sinners in and around the church even in d time of paul.
It is not because of modernization that unbelievers are in church,it is because we the church are not doing what we ought to do.

Actually it is. We have largely redefined the church not as a gathering of believers but as a social watering hole for the "moral". What do you think all the "church building" gimmicks are about? Drawing the saved to the church or scamming the unsaved so they can part with their money?

Christ preached to 5000 but when He came back to fellowship it was with just 12.

@david, i get what you are saying. In our walk with God ,He doesn't promise us problem free lives,true.What i meant when i said 'happy' is indeed joy. I think you're just trying to use english to make your point. True happiness stems from joy.
2) let me say that i have been to many churches at one point or the other.Even in the so-called prosperity churches,i've listened to messages that portray God as a consuming fire so many times. They do not only preach prosperity.
3)your third point misses the target very widely.Yes,i believe having a better spiritual life means serving God better.How can it not mean that?Paul had a good spiritual life and was working towards improving it daily so as to serve God better. Having a God spiritual life doesn't mean you won't suffer. You point is rather moot.
Let me also say that prosperity is very essential in propagating the gospel in these times.
We as christians should stop debating issues like this and work towards buildin the body of christ.

@N.I.Gboi, did I hear you say prosperity is essential in the propagation of the gospel in these times? How exactly? And whose prosperity, the prosperity of the Pastor, the Congregation or the Church? I hope you are not supporting the prosperity gospel alone being bandied about by some pastors. The gospel is a timeless message so I find the distinction between "those times" and "these times" irrelevant. What is of paramount importance is that the message of salvation and not prosperity alone is passed.

We as Christians should discuss issues like this because they can help us find our feet in the Christian faith. Through this discussion, some may have found that the reason they feel disconnected in Church is because there is a large congregation in which they can't ask questions bothering them and seek counsel directly from the source of the message. Iron sharpeneth iron, the Bible says. Discussions like this enlighten us on how to fellowship better and be more functional members of the body of Christ.

@david i don't support one sided teachings be it prosperity,the holy spirit or others.We should take the gospel as a whole.
In zechariah 1.17,God says thru prosperity shall my kingdom be spread abroad.
We as christians,ought to be well rounded financially,physically,spiritually and all others.
Your concept about time is interesting. Why do you use the internet to spread d gospel?Christ didn't use it so you shouldn't use it also.Thats wat you are saying.
I believe christianity is timeless truth but timely methods

Do you know Paul Yonggi Cho,

His ministry has over 800,000 members

to the initiators of this discuss,i find the whole thing a bit uncomfortable especially with the usage of bible verses to show how badly we reason out every day situations.let me start by asking how many people really go to church on a sunday in england,not in all the 'shires' but in london,birmingham or liverpool.

God is the same yesterday ,today and forever but he also created a humanity in evolution.the world population in the time of the apostles was probably just a percentage of what it is now and therefore with numerical and societal or cultural change should come an evolution in the way churches meet and are administered.the summary of your opinions are almost cultish[i didn't say occultish] or sectlike and these are the group of christians that always go ahead and do stupid stuff like the ones recently arrested in the us for wanting to wage war against the state.

for believers in the acts of the apostles you shouldnt even be on the internet where unimaginable things and the obscene are only a click away.why cant christians just serve God in their own way  and leave Joel Osteen,T.D Jakes,Eddie Long,Paula White,David Oyedepo and co alone.some people have actually formed successful ministries out of pulling down this folks.

this people talk about a relationship with God in a world where our lives have crowded Him out and even if we may not accept their methods at least he is still preached.we overanalyse only to make ourselves comfortable with the decisions we have taken like not attend a kicc anymore etc.

do you honestly think pastors of mega churches are devoid of the call of God.please dont be a bunch of jokers.multimedia themed worship is simply indicative of the year we are in and which is 2010 by the way and so you dont need a massive bible or the ncccf to truly love God.i would actually love a church situated in a theatre and my church in london is actually a refurbished theatre i.e newwine and it doesnt come better than dr tayo adeyemi delivering a well researced,intellectual discuss from the bible.

meet nigerian christians in london and they hav prolly gone to kicc,jesus house,new wine and now hillsong.very soon the australian worship theme will tire them and they will hane an excuse to move again.

my point,maybe the problem is actually us and not the church the pastors or their message.a selfish person cannot fathom giving 10% of his hard earned money either in a congregation of 100 or a million.a heart that is not totally repentant will make it into ushering and sleep with a dozen sisters in the choir be it a small or mega church.

lastly

@ Jesoul: I can understand your apprehension of meeting at the home of "strangers" as you put it. Now of course you feel comfortable with the friends you already hang out with. May I ask if these friends share the same spiritual beliefs as you? Being a part of a church body affords you the opportunity to meet other belivers who share your faith. Iron sharpens Iron, so you may begin the step towards closer relationship by suggesting that there be small group meetings at the church premises. At least that way, you are on neutral ground and then go from there.

kushe:

my point,maybe the problem is actually us and not the church the pastors or their message.a selfish person cannot fathom giving 10% of his hard earned money either in a congregation of 100 or a million.a heart that is not totally repentant will make it into ushering and sleep with a dozen sisters in the choir be it a small or mega church.
lastly

I soo agree with your point here.

kushe:
let me start by asking how many people really go to church on a sunday in england,not in all the 'shires' but in london,birmingham or liverpool.

Why don't you tell us and also tell us what point you are trying to make?

why cant christians just serve God in their own way  and leave Joel Osteen,T.D Jakes,Eddie Long,Paula White,David Oyedepo and co alone.

Because any person with sound Christian doctrine can see that these folks often make a mockery of Christianity with their false doctrines driven by the fact that the god of these fellows is their belly. We don't like them misrepresenting our faith. As just one example maybe you should search the Net on how your Paula White uses Psalm 68:19 as an attempt to fleece the flock into committing themselves to giving $68.19 per month to her partners in crime.

we overanalyse only to make ourselves comfortable with the decisions we have taken like not attend a kicc anymore etc.

Perhaps somebody who chooses to stop attending KICC is actually using God-given intellect and has awakened to biblical truths and sound doctrine?

please dont be a bunch of jokers.

Johnny just come to thread insulting people who had been discussing reasonably cordially; is that what they teach you at New Wine?

a selfish person cannot fathom giving 10% of his hard earned money either in a congregation of 100 or a million.

If you are biblically ignorant and foolish enough to part with 10% of your monthly income to your "church" instead of doing as Jesus taught, which is to help the needy around you, don't worsen the ignorance and folly by insulting those who know and follow Jesus' teaching!

my church in london is actually a refurbished theatre i.e newwine

So what? By the way, I know New Wine and I have been there a couple of times, what's your point? Is the issue being discussed whether a group meets in a former cinema? Or rather is the discussion about formats of meeting and whether the mega-church format in particular is desirable?

@Enigma: Phew. I'm glad you replied kushe o. I was just exhausted when i saw his post, I didn't know where to start!

Edit: I think we know one another. **?

Inesqor bros, it is very tiresome; interestingly, this thread had not been that antagonistic (though I haven't seen each and every post) and it is right to examine our praxis along our doctrine.

Hmmmm TC? No, I think not as I don't get the reference, sorry.