InesQor:
I dont believe any single gathering of believers is meant to be larger than can fit in a house, where great fellowship can be shared and all parts grow. My 2 cents, sir.

JeSoul:

InesQor, I find this quote most, most interesting. Can you defend this biblically?

InesQor:

@JeSoul: sorry im mobile now, so my response is delayed. The Greek word "ekklesia" is used to define church, and means "the called out ones", a word that was used for the first church: Moses and the Israelites in the wilderness (Acts 7:38).

Read v39-47 to see how such a large company of called out ones erred because they cooperated in their large numbers to deliver evil counsel. Finish the chapter and see why they killed Stephen in the discourse.

As to fellowship and administration, recall Jethro's advice in Exo 18:21 to break up the group into chunks for better fellowship. Each chunk of 5, 10 as suggested is a Household, so to speak.

Fellowship is, in the Greek, koinonia, a partnership and social intercourse. The definition makes it clear that its not a very large unwieldy body, and the reason I personally say a house, is that, I can see various Biblical patterns of believers meeting in their houses.

I am not excluding meetings larger than houses, though, but each functional unit within the gathering, delivering the power of the gospel and sharing communion must not be larger than a household that is receiving guests. I am not a fan of crusades a la Benny Hinn. Only been to one in my life: Bonnke in 2000 or so. Make it a maximum of 50 to 100 depending on size of available space.

The key thing is that, like parts of the human body must not atrophy, no one should be able to transparently slip by in the meeting and not BOTH gain AND contribute. More questions?

Pastor Adeboye tried to do in his "100 fold returns" scam which he wrote in his "open heavens" devotional of march 17 2010.

bawomolo:

most large churches typically have small groups. i know redeem does.

KunleOshob:

The large size of churches we have today actually don't have any scriptural basis, however i would not condem it as wrong but true fellowship is lacking in churches of such large size. In the early churches they used to share meals, there was always feasting which formed an essential part of the fellowship but today it is completely missing except for the occassional holy communion were tiny rations of bread and "wine"[as opposed to full meals] are given out in observation of Jesus commandment. The mordern church as tried to re-enact the close knit fellowship which the early church had through house fellowships and house cells but the sharing of meals is mostly missing in these fellowships and some of them still collect "offerings" which they re-mit to the church for what ever purpose. But large congregations [not churches] are not entirely unscriptural as Jesus used to have several open air sermons in which thousands were recorded to attend. A very obvious example was when Jesus fed 5,000 men after one of his sermons. In summary i won't condenm large church congregations as long as they provide a platform for true fellowship, but then again large congregations are unnecessary as i don't see any benefit in it for the congregation themselves apart from the intituitional church that stands to make more money from a larger congregation.

bawomolo:

why do u consider them strangers?

aisha2:

I believe that is what Home cells and Care groups are meant to address. If we say Churches should not have more than 5o members then we will have many more churches than we have now crowding the place

davidylan:

This is one of the reasons i now attend my church quite infrequently.

Large churches make close-knit christian fellowships and bible studies impossible. Large churches today are no different from movie theatres . . . you go in, watch a 30 min concert that you dont participate in, listen to a 20 min motivational speech where you're not required to own a bible as the verses are put up on a screen for your convenience. Pay your usual gate fee (tithes and offerings) then leave.

Where is the place for searching the scriptures? What if you had burning questions to ask? where is the place for exhorting one another? Where is the opportunity to share testimonies that bolster the faith of others?

InesQor:

Housefellowships are mainly a devious ploy to extend church services (roughly 3 or 4 per week already) further, and to generate more offerings and tithes even in the people's comfort zones. They know it will be hard to be absent. Its not done right, IMHO.

InesQor:

Housefellowships are mainly a devious ploy to extend church services (roughly 3 or 4 per week already) further, and to generate more offerings and tithes even in the people's comfort zones. They know it will be hard to be absent. Its not done right, IMHO.

davidylan:

lol even in the bible study i attend they have offering time too. Amazing.

JeSoul:

Kai are you guys serious? offerings at house fellowships too? what the heck?

InesQor:

Lol spot on, Davidylan. NCCF often gets it right. Men! I enjoyed those NYSC days! But to be fair, some NCCF families turn out to be AS indoctrinated with traditions AS their current Papa is. Some that I came across were power-drunk and no different from some conservative churches that KunleOshob detracts very often. but the few ones where the leadership gave way to the Holy Spirit, they were awesome. Mine, and I guess yours too from your comment, were like that.

JeSoul:

   . . . until I remembered a church website I stumbled on a year ago. They actually meet at a movie theatre on sundays and encourage coffee and popcorn while the service goes on. They "preach/teach" using mostly videos so it's all movie-themed. I'll try to search and see if I can find that website.

  Its a growing trend of "Alternative Churches" that are popping up all over the place. If I tell you of some of the places I've been to and stuff I've seen/heard, you will weep for American churches.

"Its naturally different because we meet in a huge theater," he said, adding that the setting, "actually helps people to see God as part of their every day lives"

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 Attendees are told that there will be no assigned times to stand or sit at this service; they should feel free to do whatever moves them at the moment

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Congregation member Karen Hart puts one more in mind of an entrant in a karaoke contest than a choir director as she leads the crowd in contempoary pop hymns

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As for Drent, he does not so much preach as talk to those in attendance about what they can do to make their spiritual lives better and happier

noetic16:

@ OP

Small churches bring about[b] unnecessary familiarity[/b].

Big churches have several doctrine problems. . , but it helps to just worship and disappear without anyone noticing.

KunleOshob:

Aside from my comments in the previous thread, i believe large churches deny the congregation the opportuiny of close fellowship which i believe was the pupose of the initial church. There is evidence in the bible that people discussed issues at church gatherings but today the focus is on one man[pastor] who does all the talking and there is no room for contributions or questions you just have to accept everything preached wether it is right or wrong and wether you understand it or not. I believe if there was opportunity for questions in churches a lot of fallacies that pastors preach like tithes, first fruits e.t.c would be question and the faults in them would be expose before the whole church, this would discourage preachers from adding their own doctrines to scriptures like Pastor Adeboye tried to do in his "100 fold returns" scam which he wrote in his "open heavens" devotional of march 17 2010.

JeSoul:

The early church that met in each others homes and shared their properties and dedicated their lives to one another - uneccesary familiarity? Jesus told us to bear one another's burdens and love each other - how can we do that if we don't know each other?
   

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Noetic, you may want to re-read what you just wrote, hopefully you may recognize that it appears you do not know the purpose for gathering together and having church in the first place.

JeSoul:

Oh David here's the link if you want it http://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=1129&dat=20031015&id=tKokAAAAIBAJ&sjid=jHADAAAAIBAJ&pg=6493,4315061

"Its naturally different because we meet in a huge theater," he said, adding that the setting, "actually helps people to see God as part of their every day lives"

As for Drent, he does not so much preach as talk to those in attendance about what they can do to make their spiritual lives better and happier

noetic16:

how then do u measure growth?. . ,  .what happens if u minister to people and they get saved. . . .would u tell them to go and worship somewhere else because u dont want to be a big church?.

Biblical churches actually grew FYI, and there was no restriction to their sizes. What u should be mostly concerned about is the ingenuity of the sermons and doctrines and not about the church size.

noetic16:

The early church SOLD and GAVE ALL THEY HAD. They lived in harmony and were their brothers keepers. This implies that as a member of the church u could expose your vulnerability to another member and would not be ridiculed.
How is that possible in the present constitution of churches? when egoism and materialism are the centre of the "gospel". . .where u must be suffering from an evil spirit if u are broke . . . .or some demons are pursuing u, if as a lady u are not married early. The present churches are IMO not worth bonding with.

davidylan:

this is precisely JeSoul's point . . . how can i be my brothers keeper when i dont even know my brother?

noetic16:

Jesoul, unless we reconstruct the early church, there is no point of a small fellowship gathering.

Jesoul, I tried to and on two occasions got my fingers burnt.

noetic16:

how then do u measure growth?

what happens if u minister to people and they get saved. . . .would u tell them to go and worship somewhere else because u dont want to be a big church?.

Biblical churches actually grew FYI, and there was no restriction to their sizes.

noetic16:

u would be shocked to find out that there are more unsaved persons in the church than the saved. That explains why knowing them would bring about negative influences IMO.

noetic16:

u would be shocked to find out that there are more unsaved persons in the church than the saved. That explains why knowing them would bring about negative influences IMO.

I was once worshipping in a RCCG parish here in london. I so liked the messages from the alter (as they were undiluted truths) that I decided to become a church worker. my experience was disgusting.