Brotherly , there is no one verse that says "the church is for christians only", see

  1 Cor 14: So if the whole church comes together and everyone speaks in tongues, and some who do not understand or some unbelievers come in, will they not say that you are out of your mind? But if an unbeliever or someone who does not understand[h]comes in while everybody is prophesying, he will be convinced by all that he is a sinner and will be judged by all, and the secrets of his heart will be laid bare. So he will fall down and worship God, exclaiming, "God is really among you!"

So here we readily see the[b] church [/b] was the gathering of believers. However, this is not to say an unbeliever is banned completely from going in as indeed we see the above. But it is worthy to note that this is a sharp contrast from today where most "churches" are an all-purpose social gathering spot for pretty much everyone. Cheers!

JeSoul:

Brotherly , there is no one verse that says "the church is for christians only", see

  1 Cor 14: So if the whole church comes together and everyone speaks in tongues, and some who do not understand or some unbelievers come in, will they not say that you are out of your mind? But if an unbeliever or someone who does not understand[h]comes in while everybody is prophesying, he will be convinced by all that he is a sinner and will be judged by all, and the secrets of his heart will be laid bare. So he will fall down and worship God, exclaiming, "God is really among you!"

So here we readily see the[b] church [/b] was the gathering of believers. However, this is not to say an unbeliever is banned completely from going in as indeed we see the above. But it is worthy to note that this is a sharp contrast from today where most "churches" are an all-purpose social gathering spot for pretty much everyone. Cheers!

Sisterly, thanks, i do totally agree with you and am sure many christains desire a church that is worthy of our lord. But I have long ago learnt the church will not be a perfect place until our lord comes, with that in mind I am always slow to speak when it comes to some matters.

@ @ InesQor please if you still have any input please help, though Jesoul has explained clearly the rationale, so we really[b] cant [/b] say that the unsaved are meant to be reached outside the church.

It would help if when issues like these are being discussed add ons like its all because of 10% or its because of money are ommitted, it irritates me as a christain. I am in no way saying that opinions should not be stated but then create a thread on the relationship between tithe and church numbers and bash there. Its wrong to always chip such comments in, for those that do not understand or not met the Lord it can be a put off and that is not what we want, is it?

Analytical:

Folks,

Just to make some quick observations:

The scriptures made it clear that the early church not only met from house to house (smaller groups), they actually also met in large congregations using upper rooms (more like halls in the upper floor of buildings), Solomon’s Porch (a large space within the outer court of the temple) that can take a large gathering etc.  They all couldn’t have been living in Solomon’s Porch!

Acts 2:
46 And they, continuing daily with one accord in the temple, and breaking bread from house to house, did eat their meat with gladness and singleness of heart

47 praising God and having favor with all the people. And the Lord was adding to their number day by day those who were being saved.

Acts 5
11 And great fear came upon all the church, and upon as many as heard these things

12 And by the hands of the apostles were many signs and wonders wrought among the people; (and they were all with one accord in Solomon's porch.

14 And believers were the more added to the Lord, multitudes both of men and women.)

42 And every day, in the temple and from house to house, they kept right on teaching and preaching Jesus as the Christ.


As the number grew so did their needs and they continued to meet as a congregation and from house to house:

Acts 6

1 Now at this time while the disciples were increasing in number, a complaint arose on the part of the Hellenistic Jews against the native Hebrews, because their widows were being overlooked in the daily serving of food.

2 So the twelve summoned the congregation of the disciples and said, "It is not desirable for us to neglect the word of God in order to serve tables.

3 "Therefore, brethren, select from among you seven men of good reputation, full of the Spirit and of wisdom, whom we may put in charge of this task.

Then entered Stephen and the other deacons selected to take charge of the daily administration of needs etc.  There is nothing wrong in coming together as large congregation but care must also be taken that no one is neglected by also meeting from house to house and in smaller groups.  This was what the early church did.

Check the Church at Corinth below and notice how distinction is made between when they come together as congregation and when they are in their houses:

1 Cor 11
18 For first of all, when ye come together in the church, I hear that there be divisions among you; and I partly believe it.

20 When ye come together therefore into one place, this is not to eat the Lord's supper.

21 For in eating every one taketh before other his own supper: and one is hungry, and another is drunken.

22 What? have ye not houses to eat and to drink in? or despise ye the church of God, and shame them that have not? What shall I say to you? shall I praise you in this? I praise you not.


The early church was not a perfect one, just as ours is also not a perfect one.  They had their own Annanais and Saphirra etc  Even in the midst of the 12 small group close to Jesus, there was a Judas 'The Betrayer' Iscariot, a Peter 'The Denier' Simon and a Thomas 'The Doubter' Didymus!  Acts 6 sounds so familiar, especially when the church is growing, hence the wisdom in appointing deacons who attend to the needs of the congregation.


JeSoul and all who love His appearing, God bless you richly.

Your post is as usual spot on! But it is imperative to say this . . . no everyone here i'm sure believes in fellowship together whether in a large or small congregation . . .

however you shld also note one important thing in the verses you quoted, even though they met in large synagogues . . . one thing was not forgotten . . . fellowship from house to house! This is something that has virtually disappeared from our large empires today.

Gbam. Deboskky hit on the head. Mega churches are unavoidable. However, are we saying in the bible days there no people who had 'a form Godliness, but denied the power thereof'? Are we opining that tares and wheat are not to grow together till the 'day of harvest'? If in the days of Jesus people like these existed, how much less in these days? I think we need to understudy some these mega churches to realise that the 'serious ones' are known.

davidylan:

Your post is as usual spot on! But it is imperative to say this . . . no everyone here i'm sure believes in fellowship together whether in a large or small congregation . . .

however you shld also note one important thing in the verses you quoted, even though they met in large synagogues . . . one thing was not forgotten . . . fellowship from house to house! This is something that has virtually disappeared from our large empires today.

I dont know about empires, so I will assume you mean the "churches" today. I thought it was stated severally that the house to hose fellowship is what the house groups/cells/house fellowship/bible study groups (whatever name it is called) is meant to achieve.

Virtually all big church groups have smaller units, perhaps if you are in a place that has none, you can start one.

away4real:


Sisterly, thanks, i do totally agree with you and am sure many christains desire a church that is worthy of our lord. But I have long ago learnt the church will not be a perfect place until our lord comes, with that in mind I am always slow to speak when it comes to some matters.

Spoken like a wise man .

@ @ InesQor please if you still have any input please help, though Jesoul has explained clearly the rationale, so we really[b] cant [/b] say that the unsaved are meant to be reached outside the church.

Oh but we can Away.

If we've established that the church is primarily and mostly for believers, and it will be rare that unbelievers will be in their midst - then InesQor is not wrong in saying "the unsaved are meant to be reached outside the church". Meant - being the operative word.

Now if InesQor had said "the unsaved cannot or should not be reached inside of a church" then that will be wrong.

I have been away from this thread, and Wow JeSoul accurately spoke / replied away4real on my behalf twice or thrice. Thanks sis.

KunleOshob:

You ought to read his analysis on the tithing scam, i am sure you would appreciate his "pin point" analytical skills better. 

@KunleOshob, I am throwing you a challenge!  Please post the link to my analysis on any tithing thread (I deliberately refrained from them) for all to see.  Just one post apart from this, which is merely a comment on another post, if my memory serves me right.  Or you render an unreserved apology for your attempt at sarcasm. 

You know what?  You don't have to be so critical (almost tending to outright insultive) of any and everyone who happens not to share your opinion on any issue (in various threads) and I am not speaking of myself.  I speak to you in love and as a brother in Christ.  Ordinarily, I wouldn't even comment on your post.  So this is not an attack but a concern.  Take heed bro!

Cheers.

KunleOshob:

You ought to read his analysis on the tithing scam, i am sure you would appreciate his "pin point" analytical skills better.

toshmann:

give us the link to the tithe analysis

@KunleOshob, how long is it going to take you to locate analytical's tithe analysis as toshman requested? It's even more interesting that analytical has thrown in his challenge, will you respond as soon as possible? or remain an accuser of the brethren.

@JeSoul,

JeSoul:


Analytical,
 long time! how you dey? as always you have shed some good light on the topic. Few comments:
 Perhaps it got lost within the thread that the small-churchers are not against large meetings at all. Not at all. However the weekly gathering that we have come to call "church" is what we're saying the size should be as small and manageable as possible. There is plenty of room and examples of mass gatherings as we see Jesus and the apostles doing. And it not so much they must meet in a "house" but moreso the gathering of an intimate group. Hope this makes sense?

I have been around, mostly reading, but dropping a line once in a while!  Hope you are cool?  Keep loving the Lord.

I quite understand the points made by everyone as I went through all th e inputs.  Not, it's not lost.  Mine was to reiterate that the early church met as large congregation and also from house to house.  Moreso when some were saying the size of a church (note: believers not building) shouldn't be more than can meet in someone's house and citing it as the sole practice in the early church.  That is not the complete truth.

We will run into a problem when we try to put a figure on what the size should be.  How 'small' is your small?  However, the need for fellowship, intimacy, communion of believers, help etc is better met when the congregation is in smaller groups.  Then you know each other truly and can meet each others' needs.

I don't think the location or making a distinction between house and church is what Paul was going for here . . . but rather saying, "you can eat and drink to excess while at home alone, don't do it while in church" - and church being the operative word connoting "the gathering of believers", not insinuating the church cannot be at a house (as we indeed already know of several in the scriptures that were located at houses).

I hope I didn't misunderstand you , please correct me if I did. Thanks and Godbless!

It was when I read your comment I realized I probably gave that impression.  I was trying to draw attention to the fact that the early believers actually gathered together as single congregation as well as met in their houses, weekly.

Hope to shed more light on this . . .

away4real:

Quote from: KunleOshob on April 12, 2010, 04:44 PM
The large size of churches we have today actually don't have any scriptural basis, however i would not condem it as wrong but true fellowship is lacking in churches of such large size. In the early churches they used to share meals, there was always feasting which formed an essential part of the fellowship but today it is completely missing except for the occassional holy communion were tiny rations of bread and "wine"[as opposed to full meals] are given out in observation of Jesus commandment. The mordern church as tried to re-enact the close knit fellowship which the early church had through house fellowships and house cells but the sharing of meals is mostly missing in these fellowships and some of them still collect "offerings" which they re-mit to the church for what ever purpose. But large congregations [not churches] are not entirely unscriptural as Jesus used to have several open air sermons in which thousands were recorded to attend. A very obvious example was when Jesus fed 5,000 men after one of his sermons. In summary i won't condenm large church congregations as long as they provide a platform for true fellowship, but then again large congregations are unnecessary as i don't see any benefit in it for the congregation themselves apart from the intituitional church that stands to make more money from a larger congregation.


@ Kunle in the light of the scripture provided by Analytical below, please could you explain your comments in bold. It does appears the "modern" church approach is definately scriptural. I think the offering issue is very secondary most house groups are not in the habit of collecting money, and you rightly used "some" in your analysis, so lets leave the offetory issue out.

1 Cor 11
18 For first of all, when ye come together in the church, I hear that there be divisions among you; and I partly believe it.

20 When ye come together therefore into one place, this is not to eat the Lord's supper.

21 For in eating every one taketh before other his own supper: and one is hungry, and another is drunken.

22 What? have ye not houses to eat and to drink in? or despise ye the church of God, and shame them that have not? What shall I say to you? shall I praise you in this? I praise you not.

@ Kunle pls can you help throw more light on the question above.

@Davidylan,

davidylan:

Your post is as usual spot on! But it is imperative to say this . . . no everyone here i'm sure believes in fellowship together whether in a large or small congregation . . .

however you shld also note one important thing in the verses you quoted, even though they met in large synagogues . . . one thing was not forgotten . . . fellowship from house to house! This is something that has virtually disappeared from our large empires today.

This is my point, David.  However, I know of quite a lot of churches that do have vibrant house fellowships.  When the motive is not self but the Lord and building up a people for the Lord, then people will not so much depart from the pattern.

You know what I did when I moved into an area where there was no house fellowship?  I approached the church leaders to have one located near me.  We (about 7 or so) met Sunday evenings and had great fellowships.  We could study the bible together, ask questions, pray (really pray) for each others mundane needs and help build each other up.  These were people that were there when we had a baby, will come to the house to help my wife at home and all sundry things.  We have such scattered all over the cities.

My take is that the people that do not believe in any fellowship together, small or large, are definitely missing on some important experience of being part of the household of God.  Hebrews 10:25 addressed that.

While it doesn't mean they are not Christians, it does however mean they will be lonely!  Let me draw an analogy here for some sport lovers.  Consider your favourite team playing against your main rivals, say Arsenal vs Man U.  Will you have the same experience watching the game:

1) alone in your bedroom in front of TV?

2) with a group of friends (say 8 ) in a friend's sitting-room or

3) being in the supporters stand in the stadium with 40,000 other fans at the Emirates Stadium?

Think about it!

JeSoul:

Spoken like a wise man .
Oh but we can Away.

If we've established that the church is primarily and mostly for believers, and it will be rare that unbelievers will be in their midst - then InesQor is not wrong in saying "the unsaved are meant to be reached outside the church". Meant - being the operative word.

Now if InesQor had said "the unsaved cannot or should not be reached inside of a church" then that will be wrong.

Sis, okay point taken, but I still have this question then "how and where do we reach the unsaved?". Lets note that if for example me, you and Kunle meet to go evangelising (then we the "church", ie people not building) are going to be in some way "fellowshiping" or let me use a less contentious word "talking" with the unbeliever, in my opinion thats the church meeting.

My point being then that the presence of the unconverted has nothing really to do with the church or our fellowships, their presence does nothing to hinder or dilute our gathering, for point of emphasis their presence does not turn my fellowship with you and Kunle to a social gathering, it does not. So why then are we somehow concerned that there are many of the unconverted in the big church gatherings, It does not make those gatherings in any way a club or social gathering.

Analytical:

@JeSoul,
I have been around, mostly reading, but dropping a line once in a while!  Hope you are cool?  Keep loving the Lord.

I am well oh my brother. You should post more you know your entries are always of great value.

I quite understand the points made by everyone as I went through all th e inputs.  Not, it's not lost.  Mine was to reiterate that the early church met as large congregation and also from house to house.  Moreso when some were saying the size of a church (note: believers not building) shouldn't be more than can meet in someone's house and citing it as the sole practice in the early church.  That is not the complete truth . . .
It was when I read your comment I realized I probably gave that impression.  I was trying to draw attention to the fact that the early believers actually gather together as single congregation as well as meet in their houses, weekly.

Awesome, thanks for highlighting that. I guess we weren't consistently stressing that. Thanks!

---

away4real:

Sis, okay point taken, but I still have this question then "how and where do we reach the unsaved?". Lets note that if for example me, you and Kunle meet to go evangelising (then we the "church", ie people not building) are going to be in some way "fellowshiping" or let me use a less contentious word "talking" with the unbeliever, in my opinion thats the church meeting.

  my brother, I think now we're getting too technical. Jesus said "go out and make disciples". We are witnessing every second to the people we're with at work, at school, at the grocery store, even here online by our words and actions. "Reaching the lost" does not have to take on the modern connotation of an organized group of people, heading out to the street to hand out tracts - and just because they are a group of christians - together - does not mean they are having "church" at that very moment. I hope this makes sense?

My point being then that the presence of the unconverted has nothing really to do with the church or our fellowships, their presence does nothing to hinder or dilute our gathering, for point of emphasis their presence does not turn my fellowship with you and Kunle to a social gathering, it does not. So why then are we somehow concerned that there are many of the unconverted in the big church gatherings, It does not make those gatherings in any way a club or social gathering.

Several points in there.
From the chapter in 1 Corinthians 14, we readily see that a gathering of "church" is a group of believers - an occasionally an unbeliever might come in curious

  ^this is very very different for a regular church goer, that hears the gospel(hopefully) every sunday, but yet remains unchanged, unsaved, but continues to participate in the religious ritual of "going to church". What purpose does that serve to the body of Christ? or to the unsaved man?

Rev 3:14"To the angel of the church in Laodicea write:
      These are the words of the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the ruler of God's creation. I know your deeds, that[b] you are neither cold nor hot. I wish you were either one or the other! So, because you are lukewarm—neither hot nor cold—I am about to spit you out of my mouth[/b]
 
  We see how God feels about those who are lukewarm, aka the church goer who has not committed himself to Christ but yet maintains an outward form of righteousness by "going to church". Furthermore, the chances are high that that church he is attending does NOT preach the unadulterated gospel of Christ. When Jesus spoke - people had 2 reactions to Him, they turned to Him or they turned away from Him. If the true gospel is being preached, they will either be convicted and turn to God, or be angry (just like the crowds Jesus spoke to) and walk away. Not just sit on the fence. Anyways I don talk tire Godbless!

JeSoul:

my brother, I think now we're getting too technical. Jesus said "go out and make disciples". We are witnessing every second to the people we're with at work, at school, at the grocery store, even here online by our words and actions. "Reaching the lost" does not have to take on the modern connotation of an organized group of people, heading out to the street to hand out tracts - and just because they are a group of christians - together - does not mean they are having "church" at that very moment. I hope this makes sense?
of God's creation. I know your deeds, that[b] you are neither cold nor hot. I wish you were either one or the other! So, because you are lukewarm—neither hot nor cold—I am about to spit you out of my mouth[/b][/color]

Sis, thanks again as a final input, i think we need to be careful on how we perceive this concept of "modern connotation", this model of going out in 2's or 3's was introduced by Jesus, see Luke 10 below. It is a very scriptural practise through out the NT.

In summary my take is that issues like "mega church" where the unconverted should be reached are really non-issues a distraction, a close look on most practises of the so-called modern church suggest they have scriptural leanings.

God bless you richly.

Luke 10: 1. After this the Lord appointed seventy-twoa others and sent them two by two ahead of him to every town and place where he was about to go. 2He told them, “The harvest is plentiful, but the workers are few. Ask the Lord of the harvest, therefore, to send out workers into his harvest field. 3Go! I am sending you out like lambs among wolves

I have not read all the posts , but heres is my contribution. Having a Mega church is a sign of grace and ability. Biblically , God use people according to their abilities. The size of a man's crowd is a sign of ability and should be commended rather than condemned. If your ability is fifty , no matter how much you try, you cant have more than fifty. Until grace and ability increase. God is a God of increase. He commeds the man that increased his talents.
God gives leadership to people according to their abilities. Moses gave leadrship to people bases on their abilities

Exodus 18:25
And Moses chose able men out of all Israel, and made them heads over the people, rulers of thousands, rulers of hundreds, rulers of fifties, and rulers of tens.

Matthew 25:15
And unto one he gave five talents, to another two, and to another one; to every man according to his several ability; and straightway took his journey.

.It is based on the grace of leadership. To condemn a church or a man of God for having large crowd is unreasonable. How can a man condemn what God has approved?

Joagbaje:

God is a God of increase. He commeds the man that increased his talents.

What talent? fleecing the flocks abi?

Joagbaje:

I have not read all the posts , but heres is my contribution. Having a Mega church is a sign of grace and ability. Biblically , God use people according to their abilities. The size of a man's crowd is a sign of ability and should be commended rather than condemned. If your ability is fifty , no matter how much you try, you cant have more than fifty.

Size is not everything. In this case, its the quality of the congregation that matters to the Almighty, not the number of people in church. We can begin to talk about size and ability after you make christians out of the members. You will be correct if the focus is revenue generation.

Why is it a problem when some churches grow and others do not,

Jesus had twelve disciples; sometimes he had a gathjering of Above 50 men excluding children and women; sometimes Ten cities will run to hear him talk, I think it s not about the numbers but about what God has called you to do!!!!!

Size is not everything. In this case, its the quality of the congregation that matters to the Almighty, not the number of people in church. We can begin to talk about size and ability after you make christians out of the members. You will be correct if the focus is revenue generation.


[quote][/quote]
I think we are mixing followership and discipleship together. Jesus commanded great followership but few disciples. Remember in John 6, the bible records that after a hard sermon many of His disciples left Him, i want to believe followers, because the 'real' disciples stayed for the word of life. In Hebrews 4v2, it recorded that several heard word but did not profit some for lack of faith, so in every congregration, there are disciples for the word of life and followers in search of miracles.

e no matter how big or large church dey, as far as dem dey go there to praise and worship God. but di reason why some people dey say e no too good na because nowadays church don become money matter, and buisness. people dey start church to gain popularity and get fast money.
but the Bible no take say na only certain amount fit correct for Church,

I think no problem with having large churches. We have to pray that the churches grow larger and larger for the glory of God!

I agree that WITHOUT these small small groups there can be a problem of brotherly love in a big church AS WELL AS in a small church.

We can not stop evangelizing in order to maintain small churches! I think most of the large churches have the system of cell groups or house churches where members  know each other, pray,help,discuss, visit, burry each other, eat together, and various practices of brotherly love. These cell groups or home churches are composed of a limited number of members. They meet during the weekdays near their homes on certain days as arranged by the church leadership.
On Sundays all members of these home churches do meet together in the large church. And so the large church runs smoothly.

soooo, are u saying that we should start stopping people from coming to church just because 'a church should be small?'

There is nothing biblical or unbiblical about a mega-church. The main thing is that those churches usually grow from the founder's ambition to build his own little kingdom instead of following the call of the ministry:

Eph 4:12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:
Eph 4:13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:
Eph 4:14 That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;


It is the founder's motivation that leads to growth in numbers and not much spiritually (through worldly attractions). That motivation is driven by pride. Otherwise the pastor could develop other pastors and other members will attend at a more local church.

But the pastor is too proud of his large congregation. The message is so watered down that other members cannot grow spiritually to a level where they can also pastor. Pastor dies and son takes over and the people keep coming to listen to their idol's son,

I think it really depends upon the church itself. I do attend a mega church in Dallas, Texas---The Potters House. I have also attended smaller churches when I resided in another city. Truthfully, I feel like my mega church has more of a connected, loving feeling than the smaller church. Yes, there are preachers draining people of their last dollar EVERYWHERE. On the other hand, I don't give above my tithes unless I am moved by God concerning the amount. Meaning, I don't give by guilt or by the compulsion or pressure of man; I give because I love the Lord and directs me.

The good thing about my church is that Bishop TD Jakes and the church ministries, teaches and inspires us to use our talents and gifts to bring more economic to our lives. Meaning he believes in helping us in every area of our lives. The knowledge---spiritual, economic, business, relationship,etc-he has and imparts to us is IMPECCABLE AND PRACTICAL. My life has not been the same!!!

Now, concerning how big a church should be, If a church restricted itself to 500 members then where would the 501, 503, 700th member go? Would they be directed to a place where they are not fed or cared for properly? The thing that helps staying connected for me is getting involved. We are not supposed to sit at church every week but we are equipped to do the work of the ministry,

Now these are the gifts Christ gave to the church: the apostles, the prophets, the evangelists, and the pastors and teachers. Their responsibility is to equip God's people to do his work and build up the church, the body of Christ.
Ephesians 4:11-12[b][/b]

@away4real
So here we readily see the church was the gathering of believers. However, this is not to say an unbeliever is banned completely from going in as indeed we see the above. But it is worthy to note that this is a sharp contrast from today where most "churches" are an all-purpose social gathering spot for pretty much everyone. Cheers!

Yes, I agree the churches are struggling with being holy and righteous. They seemed to be overpowered by worldiness. I am sometimes appalled to see what women wear, I believe we should come as we are but as long as it doesn't hinder another. It doesn't take much for a woman to cover her breast and if she doesn't have something we have a clothing bank at our church.
Being that the church is made up of members, each member should respectfully acknowledge a person in the above instance, reinforcing what the Bishop or Pastor preachers and God's Word. For some reason we are afraid to teach people the proper way. If I'm doing something wrong I WANT SOMEONE TO TELL ME