OkaiCorne:
RIDDLE OF THE DAY

Four guys walk into a room and see an artwork hanging on the wall without the artist around;

The first guy says "Nice artwork, I really appreciate the artist for such a piece of beauty and inspiration"

The second guy says "Well I've heard a lot about the artist, and going by his reputation...I am not surprised if this is his artwork"

The third guy says "What nonsense! I cannot see any artist...and the artwork has a lot of flaws. Infact the artist does not exist! until I see him"

The fourth guy says "At the very least, an artwork cannot exist without an artist, I am not sure what he looks like and I've heard a lot of conflicting descriptions about him...but definitely, there should be an artist responsible for this artwork"


Dear all, out of these four guys...please tell me which of them is delusional??

PLEASE NO BEATING AROUND THE BUSH WITH UNNECESSARY QUESTIONS OR THEORIES...JUST A SIMPLE ANSWER IS NEEDED!

Cheers

Obviously the third person..
But let me add something.. A fifth person walks into the room and says I AM the artist.. And 1,2 and 4 believes him simply because the painting exists... They never saw him drawing or painting anything before but just because he says it, then he must be the artist... You'll then agree with me that 1, 2 and 4 are more foolish?

OkCornel:


1) If Energy cannot be created nor destroyed, please enlighten me...does energy have a designer?

That would imply that everything in the universe is eternal, including you and I, but just have different forms at different points in time because the energy of the universe is always transforming.

I don't know what your own definition of energy is, but I'll define mine as "existence can neither be created nor destroyed, only transformed", meaning non-existence is impossible, and things that never existed before CANNEVER come into existence, and things that already exist CANNEVER go out of existence, so the universe has always existed in one form or the other, and will always exist, and therefore there was never a time it didn't exist, and needed a designer to bring it into existence. This line of thinking destroys the Abrahamic God or any kind of God at all.

2) If Energy does not have a designer...does it mean God must also have a designer? Is energy the only exception to this norm?

What is energy? I believe the entire universe is energy and the transformation of energy. So it doesn't have a designer. It can neither be created nor destroyed only transformed.

I anticipate an intelligent response devoid of insults sir...thanks ...we're all observing and learning...

I don't insult people. I call them what they are.

Just to add...the Universe is beyond the limitations of time...the existence of which cannot be measured by time...even LIGHT has not covered all angles of the Universe...to show you how vast the Universe is...

We all exist in a planet within an insignificant fragment of the milky way galaxy...which is one of the quadrillions (or even more than that) of galaxies in existence in this ever expanding universe...not to even talk of the multiverse...

I don't get the point of these?

ReinaFarine:


Obviously the third person..
But let me add something.. A fifth person walks into the room and says I AM the artist.. And 1,2 and 4 believes him simply because the painting exists... They never saw him drawing or painting anything before but just because he says it, then he must be the artist... You'll then agree with me that 1, 2 and 4 are more foolish?

Bravo! Very intelligent response I must add...by bringing a fraudster into the equation

1, 2 and 4 are fools to believe if and only if they just believe straightaway without asking probing questions...and not silly questions...

However, we cannot invalidate the fact that...no artwork can exist without an artist... and for an impersonator to exist...surely the real artist also exists

That brings us to what religion calls... "God vs Satan" fights...

OkCornel:


If Energy does not have an origin...then why close your mind to the possibility that the Universe can be created out of nothing?

Why must energy have an origin? If everything must have an origin, then what is the origin of the origin of the origin of the origin of the origin of the origin........... of the origin of energy? Can't energy be eternal?

And what is nothing? How's NOTHINGNESS possible, and how can anything at all come out of nothing? Have you really contemplated NOTHING? Nothing is undefined and meanigless.

Note: I am not saying Energy and "the Eternal Creator" is one and the same thing...but definitely, one is a tool and the other is the manipulator of the tool...

Then what is the eternal creator made of? Did he CREATE ENERGY? Was there a time in which there was nothingness, and this energy didn't exist? Was the Eternal creator EXISTING IN AN OCEAN OF NOTHINGNESS at the time?

Tohzara:
That would imply that everything in the universe is eternal, including you and I, but just have different forms at different points in time because the energy of the universe is always transforming.

I don't know what your own definition of energy is, but I'll define mine as "existence can neither be created nor destroyed, only transformed", meaning non-existence is impossible, and things that never existed before CANNEVER come into existence, and things that already exist CANNEVER go out of existence, so the universe has always existed in one form or the other, and will always exist, and therefore there was never a time it didn't exist, and needed a designer to bring it into existence. This line of thinking destroys the Abrahamic God or any kind of God at all.

What is energy? I believe the entire universe is energy and the transformation of energy. So it doesn't have a designer. It can neither be created nor destroyed only transformed.


I don't insult people. I call them what they are.

I don't get the point of these?

I have further questions for you...

1) Is Energy all there is to the Universe in terms of creation? What of intellect and consciousness?

2) Can you mention any example where energy alone is responsible for the creation of conscious and intelligent (at different levels) life forms?


Per the bolded, I told you all that to let you know the Universe and Multiverse as a collective is a living being and our limited intellect as humans cannot rule out the existence of the Eternal Creator...rather, the Eternal Creator has done us a huge favor by coming down to our level to give us the gift of nature and also enlightened souls that would point us to the direction of the TRUTH...

OkCornel:


Bravo! Very intelligent response I must add...

1, 2 and 4 are fools to believe if and only if they just believe straightaway without asking probing questions...and not stupid questions...

That is why I called the Op stupid if his only argument for the existence of God is the universe.

ReinaFarine:


That is why I called the Op stupid if his only argument for the existence of God is the universe.

I'm not even bothered about anyone's point of view. However...TRUTH must surely prevail no matter how long deception takes hold...

I'm kinda curious, what is your argument for the existence or otherwise of this Eternal Creator called God or whatever His name is?

ReinaFarine:


That is why I called the Op stupid if his only argument for the existence of God is the universe.

hmm you have sense

OkCornel:


I have further questions for you...

1) Is Energy all there is to the Universe in terms of creation? What of intellect and consciousness?

Mind must be fundamental to the universe for it to exist in the first place. And consciousness and intellect are not the only forms of mind----mind can also be UNCONSCIOUS. If energy is all there is, and everything is its transformation, then everything that came about as a result of that transformation must already be present in energy in the first place, otherwise it wouldn't exist, since it is already stated that nothing can come out of the blue or nonexistence. If quantum particles are lifeless and mindless in absolute terms, then how could a certain complex arrangement of lifeless, mindless particles give rise to intellect and mind----something that allegedly doesn't exist in them? Surely those qualities were already present in some rudimentary form, and begin to become more obvious and explicit as the particles come together in the most complex possible ways. So mind must already be inherent in energy, otherwise it wouldn't exist.

2) Can you mention any example where energy alone is responsible for the creation of conscious and intelligent (at different levels) life forms?

Energy itself is infused with mind and "life" at the most rudimentary level, which is why it could "give rise" to them in the first place.

Is it possible for you to ISOLATE some chinese people in a town for a few decades, and come back later to find them all speaking English? That is less improbable, and in fact, impossible, than it is for mind and intellect that were already not implicit in energy to come into existence out of the blue.

Tohzara:
Mind must be fundamental to the universe for it to exist in the first place. And consciousness and intellect are not the only forms of mind----mind can also be UNCONSCIOUS. If energy is all there is, and everything is its transformation, then everything that came about as a result of that transformation must already be present in energy in the first place, otherwise it wouldn't exist, since it is already stated that nothing can come out of the blue or nonexistence. If quantum particles are lifeless and mindless in absolute terms, then how could a certain complex arrangement of lifeless, mindless particles give rise to intellect and mind----something that allegedly doesn't exist in them? Surely those qualities were already present in some rudimentary form, and begin to become more obvious and explicit as the particles come together in the most complex possible ways. So mind must already be inherent in energy, otherwise it wouldn't exist.

Energy itself is infused with mind and "life" at the most rudimentary level, which is why it could "give rise" to them in the first place.

Is it possible for you to ISOLATE some chinese people in a town for a few decades, and come back later to find them all speaking English? That is less improbable, and in fact, impossible, than it is for mind and intellect that were already not implicit in energy to come into existence out of the blue.

If I get to understand your point of view correctly...are you saying energy precedes and supercedes intellect and consciousness?

Is energy the tool or is it the creator?


Ride on bro...I find discussions such as ours more intellectually stimulating rather than the boring fights I usually see between theists and atheists... I'm eagerly awaiting your response...

chemystery:


And why did you use the word evolution up there? Are you not suppose to be using the word creation?

Since you atheist evolutionist don't believe the universe was created but evolved I see no reason why you should think this website was created.

chemystery:


And nobody in Africa, Europe, North America and South America saw him

And yet you use A.D. as a term of reference for whatever happened after Him.

chemystery:


Is it not the same god that claimed "the whole world" was sinful, then have Noah preach only in the towns of Israel and eventually destroyed "the whole world" with flood for not changing in their ways. Hmmmmn, isn't it ridiculous how the creator of the universe regard Israel as "the whole world" ?

This is why you atheists should ask questions if you don't know what you are arguing about.

OkCornel:


Per the bolded, I told you all that to let you know the Universe and Multiverse as a collective is a living being and our limited intellect as humans cannot rule out the existence of the Eternal Creator...rather, the Eternal Creator has done us a huge favor by coming down to our level to give us the gift of nature and also enlightened souls that would point us to the direction of the TRUTH...

The universe has probably always existed and probably has no creator. Why do you insist that it must have one? After making such claims, you'll then turn around to tell us that the Creator has no creator and has existed forever (destroying the premise of your argument). Must everything have a creator simply because it exists?

If a God that is yet to be proved can be eternal, why can't I argue the same thing for the universe that I'm already sure exists 100%?

Moreover, creation as we understand it on earth is different from the kind of outrageous and impossible creation you guys are advocating. Humans "create" things from pre-existing materials. No one creates something that didn't exist before. Everything is a derivation.

But a cosmic magician pulled an entire universe out of a hat? In fact, out of ABSOLUTE NOTHINGNESS? For real?

budaatum:

'My friend' has not said what I posted is not what was meant. However, please post the meaning you mean. People will learn from it.

natural has a much broader meaning. Within science, the term natural refers to any element of the physical universe — whether made by humans or not. This includes matter, the forces that act on matter, energy, the constituents of the biological world, humans, human society, and the products of that society.this what we are debating

OkCornel:


If I get to understand your point of view correctly...are you saying energy precedes and supercedes intellect and consciousness?

Is energy the tool or is it the creator?

Mind itself is energy, and energy is mind. It becomes more obvious and higher in quality the more complex it becomes. It is self-creating and self-optimizing.

And you need to stop talking about "consciousness". Not only conscious beings have minds. There are unconscious minds too. Like I said, mind must be present in the fabrics of reality for it to emerge in form of consciousness at the high point of physical complexity.

Tohzara:
Mind itself is energy, and energy is mind. It becomes more obvious and higher in quality the more complex it becomes. It is self-creating and self-optimizing.

And you need to stop talking about "consciousness". Not only conscious beings have minds. There are unconscious minds too. Like I said, mind must be present in the fabrics of reality for it to emerge in form of consciousness at the high point of physical complexity.

Per the bolded, you might be mistaking a part to be the whole....the mind is a bundle of energy, consciousness and intelligence. Take away one of these three...then your mind does not exist...these three things are interdependent on each other for the mind to function optimally...

And please don't fall for the error of limiting consciousness to this physical realm...

You can be unconscious or sub-conscious in the physical world...but you are definitely conscious to an extent in your dreamworld or meta-physical realm...

Are you also implying that energy on its own is intelligent? Or are you stating intellect and energy are the same thing?? or that intellect is a subset of energy?


Please and please...I do not mean any insults...thanks

I anticipate your response...

Tohzara:
The universe has probably always existed and probably has no creator. Why do you insist that it must have one? After making such claims, you'll then turn around to tell us that the Creator has no creator and has existed forever (destroying the premise of your argument). Must everything have a creator simply because it exists?

If a God that is yet to be proved can be eternal, why can't I argue the same thing for the universe that I'm already sure exists 100%?

Moreover, creation as we understand it on earth is different from the kind of outrageous and impossible creation you guys are advocating. Humans "create" things from pre-existing materials. No one creates something that didn't exist before. Everything is a derivation.

But a cosmic magician pulled an entire universe out of a hat? In fact, out of ABSOLUTE NOTHINGNESS? For real?

Per the bolded...if you agree energy does not have a creator...but plays a key role in creation of things...then why are you having a problem accepting the existence of an Uncreated Creator?

The argument is still a valid one...

Can Science also explain the origin of intellect and consciousness on earth and in the Universe?

OkCornel:


Per the bolded, you might be mistaking a part to be the whole....the mind is a bundle of energy, consciousness and intelligence. Take away one of these three...then your mind does not exist...these three things depend solely one each other for the mind to function optimally...

I defined energy as the basic, fundamental form of existence. Therefore everything that exists is "energy". I do not know what YOU mean by energy. Is matter energy?

I'll repeat myself. Energy must have all the basic ingredients in it----of everything we see in the universe today. Otherwise, where did they come from? If they're not part of the fundamental form of existence, did they come out of NOTHINGNESS.

Mind can exist without being conscious and intelligent, I hope you know that?

And please don't fall for the error of limiting consciousness to this physical realm...

You can be unconscious or sub-conscious in the physical world...but you are definitely conscious to an extent in your dreamworld or meta-physical realm...

You're mostly unconsious in your dreams, and mostly conscious in your waking moments.

Are you also implying that energy on its own is intelligent? Or are stating intellect and energy are the same thing?? or that intellect is a subset of energy?

Intellect is derived from energy, implicit in energy, and is a subset of energy. Because everything is derived from energy.

OkCornel:


I'm not even bothered about anyone's point of view. However...TRUTH must surely prevail no matter how long deception takes hold...

I'm kinda curious, what is your argument for the existence or otherwise of this Eternal Creator called God or whatever His name is?

Personally, I feel better leaving my origin story to an Abstract being.. And concentrate more on what I can do(purpose). Obsessing over a creator doesn't change my existence or ability. I believe in a God becausenof what he has DONE and is DOING for me. And until science can prove otherwise... I know he exist and appreciate him for that... It is something I see... And atheist are free to continue to disbelieve Him until He reveals himself to them in a way science or logic can never explain..

Religion is a great mystery... It cannot and should not tried to be explained with letters and analogies... The Spirit himself is the only one that can explain it.

OkCornel:


Per the bolded...if you agree energy does not have a creator...but plays a key role in creation of things...then why are you having a problem accepting the existence of an Uncreated Creator?

Energy doesn't "create" things, it transforms itself into those things. Those things are also energy----different forms of energy.

If all of existence is made of energy, and is self-replicating and self-optimizing, what is the creator God made of, if not energy, in which case he won't be the creator God anymore?

And are you arguing for a God that DIDN'T CREATE energy but is only responsible for transforming it?

The argument is still a valid one...

Can Science also explain the origin of intellect and consciousness on earth and in the Universe?

If we're limiting ourselves to science, then this discussion is meaningless, since there's nothing empirical about the ideas exchanged.

OkCornel:



However, we cannot invalidate the fact that...no artwork can exist without an artist... and for an impersonator to exist...surely the real artist also exists

I'll never call the fifth man a fraudster.. Calling him a fraudster simply because he says he is the artist is also stupid.

And going by your logic.. A God cannot exist without the rays of my eyesight which I choose to call KWASTERIS...

bennyann:



I can't believe à time will come when you an atheist will sound so unintelligent to me. Really, the thread doesn't make sense but what baffles me is that it doesn't prove the intelligence you claim you solely possess. How else can you describe one that doesn't sound intelligent in a seemingly senseless thread. If I can't perceive your intelligence on a senseless thread, then I should question myself for ever thinking you were one. If you're behaving like this over a human being, then imagine how you would have represented God. Na wa o.

I'm wondering where I SUPPORTED nairaland owner doesn't exist apart from implying the same measure you give is what you're getting.

If Christians start threatening you with the powers of their God, your tears and scream will be everywhere. Isn't it amazing how you've been served your own coin? And it's not even over a spirit but a fellow human...

See the way you express how to prove a human being exist..
See dear, Calling for a ban proves nairaland exist and anything, anyone or any moniker carry out the ban. Even if I'm banned now, it can be a coincidence or just by an antispambot as usual. How does that prove the particular human we're talking about exist? Take that to court and find out if you'd win.

Whether everything here seems senseless to you or not, it is an undeniable fact you've been found where wanted. I repeat the table has been turned.

But you know what? I'm highly disappointed in you. You've always been above my level but for how you've quoted me thus far, you've gone way below my level and I can't really reply you here anymore.

I've learnt something here: when you feel anything is senseless, there's actually a sense in it but we need humility and insight for that sense to be revealed. The "intelligent" can get drowned easily in a pool of senselessness.

If you can't make a human with principles and self imposed decision techniques do whatever you want him to do, why Castigating the God idea over the same issue? It's their choice, it's their principles and they can decide to favour you if you win their heart or if they just simply decide to. If no one gets that simple message then I know not any simplest way to break it down.

We've really exchanged shoes.

Hi "about to wed girl"

You are being very brutal though extremely honest here. It's like this thread opened your eyes in ways you never imagined possible. How are you doing?

On one side, you have a group comfortable with 'I dont know. I wont jump to conclusions without evidence.'

On another, is a group that believes they breathe special oxygen and relate with the Creator of the Universe. If only nairaland operated by faith and prayers too.....

Energy is a property of matter... All matter are created at the big bang.....therefore we can assume energy has a source and its source is the big bang....... Even energy we consume on earth today mostly come from the sun..... But the question is what trancend the big bang? What power the big bang? Am sure any logical person will not say its energy......

Seun:
You think this is equivalent to the atheist position on God, right?

Seun, you will use Nairaland to promote the gospel of Christ very soon, if you don't, God will flog you into obedience

sonofluc1fer:
On one side, you have a group comfortable with 'I dont know. I wont jump to conclusions without evidence.'

On another, is a group that believes they breathe special oxygen and relate with the Creator of the Universe. If only nairaland operated by faith and prayers too.....

On one side we have a group with evidence defined in faith. " FAITH IS THE SUBSTANCE OF THINGS HOPED FOR, THE EVIDENCE OF THINGS NOT SEEN"

faith to that side is tangible and evident and isn't based on jumping to conclusions. While on the other side is a group that believes that because they are unsure and cannot see what the first group sees then everyone else must be like them.

How i wish nairaland just happened and even as deliberately compartmentalised and intelligently programmed as it is, it just appeared and wasn't designed .....

Shukusheka:
My oh my, what have you done to Jackbizzle again, Ishi? You and LB have a history, must you make the poor guy go through Nairaland's Guantanamo every time before finally accepting him as your love? Things we do for love..... Poor LB


No worry, I prophesy into your life, before the end of 2020 you and Jackbizzle will be having a grand wedding somewhere in Iffurun in Jesus name. Fire!

*mumbles some incantations speaks in tongues and moves around hysterically after being possessed by the spirits*



Ishilove the Lord said he has a message for you. Aaaaaaah! Elijah!

Smh

vaxx:
Energy is a property of matter... All matter are created at the big bang.....therefore we can assume energy has a source and its source is the big bang....... Even energy we consume on earth today mostly come from the sun..... But the question is what trancend the big bang? What power the big bang? Am sure any logical person will not say its energy......

I once opened a thread where I posted a video. Take a look at it vaxx. I think your answer is there and has always been there for those who are honest to themselves. Watch the video and comment on it. And by the way, the video is a scientifically based one.



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eQVm8RokoBA

Tohzara:
It really baffles me how you could even think you're making any sense.

1) We KNOW computers are human inventions, that websites are programmed and created by humans. Only a lunatic would contest this. So there's no question of websites programming themselves or coming out of the blue.

2) So even if the Seun commenting on this thread is a robot (and that means you might be a robot too----in fact everyone on this thread), or just another person who is not the real owner or creator of nairaland, the fact still remains that nairaland must have a creator----because websites don't design themselves---even if you never get to meet him.

3) The OP is not particular about the "seun" commenting on this thread (as that might be anybody or a robot), but THE CREATOR OF NAIRALAND. We know nairaland MUST have a creator, therefore, the OP is an idiot, and all of you dancing all over the thread in support of his stupidity are equally retãrded.

The Universe and nairaland are not in equivalent positions in terms of their origins and design, so the same kind of arguments DO NOT & CAN NEVER apply.

Unlike nairaland which MUST have a creator, the universe is different. It might be eternal. It might have no creator. And while human creations are designed and made from PRE-EXISTING MATERIALS, creationist theists contend that God created the Universe OUT OF NOTHING, not OUT OF THINGS THAT ALREADY EXISTED. But we have never observed anyone creating or designing anything out of thin air, out of the blue, out of nonexistence, so you can't compare this kind of outrageous idea of design with the kind of design associated with humans.

We know websites are created, but do not know whether universes are!

I have one simple question for you. Based on your knowledge of web design and building, and also based on your knowledge of the universe, which do you think is much more complex than the other? I do not have the strength for lengthy talk this morning. I am a bit busy while on here so I would like you to go straight to the point with the answer to my question.

butterflyl1on:


One one side we have a group with evidence defined in faith. " FAITH IS THE SUBSTANCE OF THINGS HOPED FOR, THE EVIDENCE OF THINGS NOT SEEN"

Evidence based in faith. 1/0. Wearing shoe before socks. It can be a wonderful feeling, doesn't make it right.

But FAITH isn't about being right. BELIEF is right. Anyone who doesn't BELIEVE is wrong.

FAITH is the drug that keeps you sane. I mean imagine a world without God. That'd be chaos..men would be killing themselves, open to all manner of perverse thoughts and utterances? Who would control the animal in man? Man needs a God to tame the beast within.

That's all good and nice. And that's what matters. You need to be tamed, like a proper slave. A life without the Cross has no meaning for you. No hope without Christ. This earth is not your own.. Heaven. These ideas are too powerful to let go.. and I really really feel for you too.

sonofluc1fer:


Evidence based in faith. 1/0. Wearing shoe before socks. It can be a wonderful feeling, doesn't make it right.

But FAITH isn't about being right. BELIEF is right. Anyone who doesn't BELIEVE is wrong.

FAITH is the drug that keeps you sane. I mean imagine a world without God. That'd be chaos..men would be killing themselves, open to all manner of perverse thoughts and utterances? Who would control the animal in man? Man needs a God to tame the beast within.

That's all good and nice. And that's what matters. You need to be tamed, like a proper slave. A life without the Cross has no meaning for you. No hope without Christ. This earth is not your own.. Heaven. These ideas are too powerful to let go.. and I really really feel for you too.

You are always rambling on like a drunk so I never take you seriously. Notice that I always Chuck your junk back at you? That's how I see you.

To some of us who rely so much on scientific truth about the origin of the universe.....

Science is incapable of telling us the truth.....why?

science work with how and not why ?

science observe phenomenon
In science, how questions are easier than why ones
science make theories and do experiments to determine how it works and not why it work
science settle on the best model that predicts the phenomenon accurately.
science keep refining the model of how it works. keep testing it but not why it works....

this is the simple reason why science will failed to tell us the simple truth about the origin of the universe...... Why is lacking from scientific method........

ReinaFarine:


Personally, I feel better leaving my origin story to an Abstract being.. And concentrate more on what I can do(purpose). Obsessing over a creator doesn't change my existence or ability. I believe in a God becausenof what he has DONE and is DOING for me. And until science can prove otherwise... I know he exist and appreciate him for that... It is something I see... And atheist are free to continue to disbelieve Him until He reveals himself to them in a way science or logic can never explain..

Religion is a great mystery... It cannot and should not tried to be explained with letters and analogies... The Spirit himself is the only one that can explain it.

Bulls eye!!! You're spot on...even words are limitations to explaining the pure form of truth!