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Re: Why I Want To Quit Catholicism by Dnaz(m): 8:06pm On Mar 13, 2018 |
nwamehn:OK. Let's say u are right. The disciples were first called Christains in Antioch not in Jerusalem. That means Christianity began in Antioch and not Jerusalem. This is ur logic and that also means that Christ didn't establish Christianity either since it was some people that started using the term "Christianity" |
Re: Why I Want To Quit Catholicism by Ubenedictus(m): 8:12pm On Mar 13, 2018 |
richie44:Christianity from the beginning has always been understood to stand on a 3 legged stool... the Bible as the written word of God, the apostolic tradition as handed to the Church and lastly, the Church itself as the arbiter of Christian issues, teacher of the word and the pillar and ground of truth in which the gospel is rightly expanded. it is a bit similar to how countries are run with a written constitution, an arbiter in the courts etc. more importantly that is how the Bible tells us that authority is exercised for Christian. 1. the Bible 1 Tim tells us that scripture is inspired and profitable for rebuke, teaching, etc that that the Man of God may be equipped for every good work. 2. apostolic tradition, 2 thess tell us that we must hold to both the written word and the oral teaching of the apostles, in Titus we find that those oral teaching were committed to faithful men in the Church. and those men were given the responsibility of passing it to the next generation. 3. the Church itself is the Pilar and ground of truth, it is in the church that the truth is safeguarded and expounded for the benefit of all. by the church I'm not talking about the shops created 50 years ago, I mean the church formed by Jesus and the apostles and heir to his promises not the fruit of schisms and division which the Bible have already condemned. these 3 together in that order constitute the safeguard for truth and doctrine for Christians. t |
Re: Why I Want To Quit Catholicism by Ubenedictus(m): 8:44pm On Mar 13, 2018 |
richie44:objectively you don't need anyone at all, unless you suddenly remember the fact that Christian religion is a communal thing, you need a preacher, a community of believer, someone to baptise you etc...it is only then you'll realise that even though you can pray for yourself you have been blessed with the opportunity of having the whole Church pray for you and with you so far you remember to ask. for the early church and all ancient churches we recognise that the church is one body comprising of those in Christ and that in Christ things in heaven and on earth have been united so that we can ask the entire Church both in heaven and the church on earth to join in our prayers. you don't strictly need the prayers of others but it is profitable even the Bible Says the prayer of the righteous availeth much. 1 Like |
Re: Why I Want To Quit Catholicism by Ubenedictus(m): 8:49pm On Mar 13, 2018 |
richie44:because we are still been sanctified and even the Christian sometimes commit sin, the Bible says if we acknowledge those sins ie confess them we will obtain forgiveness. we acknowledge our sins so as to obtain mercy 1 Like |
Re: Why I Want To Quit Catholicism by nwamehn: 9:11pm On Mar 13, 2018 |
Dnaz: That's the point boss, Christ didn't establish any religion on earth whether Christianity or Judaism. It was outsiders that were even calling the followers Christians because they were behaving like Christ. And the so-called Christians have always adopted Christ as the person they follow. Christ has no church nor religion, that's why ur religion or church cannot take u to heaven but ur belief in Him and ur ability to keep His words. I can believe in Christ, follow His ways but not affiliate myself to any church nor religion. And u wouldn't say that everyone that believes in Christ must be called a Christian because the Bible never said I must be forced to answer the name Christian before I can follow Christ. |
Re: Why I Want To Quit Catholicism by Dnaz(m): 9:48pm On Mar 13, 2018 |
nwamehn:Christ said, on this Rock I ll build my CHURC. He established a church period. U said Christianity as a religion ll not take u to heaven, only a belief in Christ, but what u don't get is that Christianity is a belief in Christ so its the same thing and u have just subscribed to religion even though u try to deny it |
Re: Why I Want To Quit Catholicism by nwamehn: 11:29pm On Mar 13, 2018 |
Dnaz: I didn't say only belief in Christ, I also said following His principles. U ar mistaking belief in Christ and following His footsteps with Christianity as a religion. Can u name one single church in ur so-called Christianity that follows completely Christ's footsteps and not add or subtract from it? Maybe, u have not understood that Christianity as a religion differs completely from belief in Christ and following His footsteps. Check the doctrines of several churches in the so-called Christian religion starting from Catholic church and check the teachings and life of Christ, u will realise that there ar a lot of differences between the two, plenty of them. If u think that being a Christian is a guarantee that u ar on good books with Christ, then who am I to discourage u? But the truth still remains that Christ didn't establish any religion nor church denomination on earth, and a man can go to heaven by just following Christ without having to identify with any religious affiliation. Or, ar u in anyway trying to say that Christ established Christianity? Hahahah. Can u show me the verse in the scripture where He established Christianity before He died pls? Anyway, that's by the way, it's not the bone of contention here, let me concentrate on the main issue. My argument still centres on the fact that Christ didn't establish any Catholic church or Anglican church or whatever and He didn't make any Peter or Paul pope of any Catholic or Anglican church. If u still want to convince me that Christ established Roman Catholic church as the first church and made Peter the pope, then answer me, who was the pope of the Roman Catholic church at Rome that was overseeing the activities of the Church at Antioch in Syria when the followers of Christ were first called Christians? I still have another question to ask u on this but it will be when u must have answered this one first. |
Re: Why I Want To Quit Catholicism by Dnaz(m): 7:03am On Mar 14, 2018 |
nwamehn:The disciples were first called Christains during the Pontificacy of Peter And Religion is all about Beliefs and following Principles , no difference |
Re: Why I Want To Quit Catholicism by Dnaz(m): 7:19am On Mar 14, 2018 |
U don't believe in Religion or the Church but u Believe the Bible which is a Product of the Church/Christains religion Let me ask you, Did Christ Establish the Bible? |
Re: Why I Want To Quit Catholicism by nwamehn: 8:19am On Mar 14, 2018 |
Dnaz: Boss, Christianity as a religion is much more than following beliefs and principles of Jesus, Christianity has now added so many other doctrines which Jesus never brought in. Even Catholic church recognise that some of their doctrines come from the traditions laid down by the fathers while some come from the Bible. If I must be a Christian, I must follow the doctrines of Christianity which not all stem from Christ in addition to the principles of Christ. Now if I decide not to add any doctrines of Christianity and just follow the principles of Christ alone as shown in the Bible, then I am automatically a follower of Christ but not a Christian cos I am even being disobedient to the doctrines of the Christian church I follow. U can check up Jesusism, it refers to the belief in and following the principles of Christ as against that of mainstream Christianity. There is no Christian church today that follows the doctrines of Jesusism. But no Jesusist can come out to claim that Jesus established Jesusism. So, Christianity as a religion and following the principles of Christ aren't the same. Some sects in the Christian religion remove from the principles of Christ while some add to the principles of Christ. Back to the point, ar u now saying that Jesus established Christianity and that Peter was the Pope of the Roman Catholic church at Rome who was overseeing the activities of the church at Antioch in Syria where the followers were first called Christians? |
Re: Why I Want To Quit Catholicism by nwamehn: 8:29am On Mar 14, 2018 |
Dnaz: Nnaa mehn, try as much as u can not to quote me wrongly. I never said I don't believe in religion, nor church nor whatever. Kindly go over my posts and reread pls. Christ never established Christianity irrespective of whether u and I believe in it or not. What I believe in has no bearing to whether Christ established it or not. I believe in Education, did Christ establish Education? That I believe in Christianity or Judaism or whatever doesn't mean that Christ established Christianity or Judaism. Ur religion cannot take u to heaven, only ur belief in and followership of Christ can. Christ never established any religion nor church on earth, if u say He established religion, which religion did He establish? If u say He established a church before He died, what is the name of that church? Catholic church? Hahahah. |
Re: Why I Want To Quit Catholicism by Dnaz(m): 10:09am On Mar 14, 2018 |
nwamehn:You are peter and on this Rock , I will build my church. Argue with ur village ppl |
Re: Why I Want To Quit Catholicism by nwamehn: 12:16pm On Mar 14, 2018 |
Dnaz: Hahahah. E don reach insults? I never quoted u, u quoted me to begin ur argument yet u can't defend what u have been saying since. The first churches that existed which were the churches at Antioch and Jerusalem were never Catholic before or after the schism but they were both Orthodox after the schism and I guess u don't know that one. Google it, bro. U claim that Catholic was the first church and Peter was the Pope, I asked u who was the Pope of the Catholic church at Rome overseeing the activities of the church at Antioch in Syria where the followers were first called Christians but up till now u couldn't answer, and now u have resorted to insults. Pls, don't quote me next time oga. I don't do insults. I know why I chose to respond to u after ignoring ur mention before. Have a nice day. |
Re: Why I Want To Quit Catholicism by Dnaz(m): 12:58pm On Mar 14, 2018 |
nwamehn:Nobody insulted you. You are looking to score Cheap points. Ur questions were duely answered but u obviously don't like the truth |
Re: Why I Want To Quit Catholicism by Ubenedictus(m): 8:48am On Mar 15, 2018 |
BluntTheApostle:the Catholic Church isn't a sect it is the Church... the sects are those who broke away in schism. |
Re: Why I Want To Quit Catholicism by Ubenedictus(m): 8:52am On Mar 15, 2018 |
nwamehn:the Greek Orthodox are not before the Catholic Church, the Greek Orthodox churches were part of the Catholic Church, they broke away about 1000 years ago in a schism. |
Re: Why I Want To Quit Catholicism by BluntTheApostle(m): 9:36am On Mar 15, 2018 |
Ubenedictus: Don't make it look like churches broke away from you. The split produced what is today known as the Catholic Church. You always make it look like there was a Catholic church and the churches split from it during the schism but that is not the truth. |
Re: Why I Want To Quit Catholicism by Ubenedictus(m): 9:48am On Mar 15, 2018 |
nwamehn:all those Eastern churches were all part of the Catholic Church until the schism, they were all in communion with the Pope of Rome. this ancient writings of eastern bishops proves my case. ALEXANDRIA St. Athanasius (362 A.D.): Rome is called "the Apostolic throne." (Athanasius, Hist. Arian, ad Monach. n. 35). The Council of Sardica (342 A.D.) ...A Council presided over by St. Athanasius of Alexandria: "If any bishop looses the judgment in some case [decided by his fellow bishops] and still believes that he has not a bad but a good case, in order that the case may be judged anew ...***let us honor the memory of the Apostle Peter by having those who have given the judgment write to Julius, Bishop of Rome***, so that if it seem proper ***he may himself send arbiters*** and the judgment may be made again by the bishops of a neighboring province." (Council of Sardica, Canon 3, 342 A.D.) in Alexandria the Pope of Rome was the final arbiter in cases relating to bishops, he was the Court of appeal. ANTIOCH the church founded by Paul Theodoret, Bishop of Cyrus in Syria (450): "I therefore beseech your holiness to persuade the most holy and blessed bishop (Pope Leo) to use his Apostolic power, and to order me to hasten to your Council. For that most holy throne (Rome) has the sovereignty over the churches throughout the universe on many grounds." (Theodoret, Tom. iv. Epist. cxvi. Renato, p. 1197). "If Paul, the herald of the truth, the trumpet of the Holy Spirit, hastened to the great Peter, to convey from him the solution to those in Antioch, who were at issue about living under the law, how much more do we, poor and humble, run to the Apostolic Throne (Rome) to receive from you (Pope Leo) healing for wounds of the the Churches. For it pertains to you to have primacy in all things; for your throne is adorned with many prerogatives." (Theodoret Ibid, Epistle Leoni) "For that all holy throne has the office of heading the Churches of the whole world, for many reasons; and, above all others, because it has remained free of the communion of heretical taint, and no one holding heterodox sentiments ever sat in it, but it has preserved the Apostolic grace unsullied." (Theodoret, Epist Renato) "Hasten to your Apostolic See in order to receive from you a cure for the wounds of the Church. For every reason it is fitting for you to hold the first place, inasmuch as your see is adorned with many priviledges. I have been condemned without trial. But I await the sentence of your Apostolic See. I beseech and implore Your Holiness to succor me in my appeal to your fair and righteous tribunal. Bid me hasten to you and prove to you that my teaching follows in the footsteps of the Apostles." (Theodoret to Pope Leo, Ep. 113). St. Eusebius of Doryleum (450): ...writing to Pope Leo: "The Apostolic throne has been wont from the beginning to defend those who are suffering injustice. I entreat Your Blessedness, give me back the dignity of my episcopate and communion with yourself, by letters from you to my lowliness bestowing on me my rank and communion." (Eusebius of Doryleum to Pope Leo) as you can see, the Pope of Rome is responsible for ordering bishops even in Antioch, to judge their cases and grant communion in the church. JERUSALEM St. Sophronius, Patriarch of Jerusalem (c. 638): "Teaching us all orthodoxy and destroying all heresy and driving it away from the God-protected halls of our holy Catholic Church. And together with these inspired syllables and characters, I accept all his (the Pope's) letters and teachings as proceeding from the mouth of Peter the Coryphaeus, and I kiss them and salute them and embrace them with all my soul ... I recognize the latter as definitions of Peter and the former as those of Mark, and besides, all the heaven-taught teachings of all the chosen mystagogues of our Catholic Church." (Sophronius, Mansi, xi. 461) "Transverse quickly all the world from one end to the other until you come to the Apostolic See (Rome), where are the foundations of the orthodox doctrine. Make clearly known to the most holy personages of that throne the questions agitated among us. Cease not to pray and to beg them until their apostolic and Divine wisdom shall have pronounced the victorious judgment and destroyed from the foundation ...the new heresy." (Sophronius,[quoted by Bishop Stephen of Dora to Pope Martin I at the Lateran Council], Mansi, x., 893) Stephen, Bishop of Dora in Palestine (645): The disciple of Patriarch Sophronius, .... "And for this cause, sometimes we ask for water to our head and to our eyes a fountain of tears, sometimes the wings of a dove, according to holy Hugh, that we might fly away and announce these things to the Chair (the Chair of Peter at Rome) which rules and presides over all, I mean to yours, the head and highest, for the healing of the whole wound. For this it has been accustomed to do from old and from the beginning with power by its canonical or apostolic authority, because the truly great Peter, head of the Apostles, was clearly thought worthy not only to be trusted with the keys of heaven, alone apart from the rest, to open it worthily to believers, or to close it justly to those who disbelieve the Gospel of grace, but because he was also commissioned to feed the sheep of the whole Catholic Church; for 'Peter,' saith He, 'lovest thou Me? Feed My sheep.' And again, because he had in a manner peculiar and special, a faith in the Lord stronger than all and unchangeable, to be converted and to confirm his fellows and spiritual brethren when tossed about, as having been adorned by God Himself incarnate for us with power and sacerdotal authority .....And Sophronius of blessed memory, who was Patriarch of the holy city of Christ our God, and under whom I was bishop, conferring not with flesh and blood, but caring only for the things of Christ with respect to your Holiness, hastened to send my nothingness without delay about this matter alone to this Apostolic see, where are the foundations of holy doctrine." (Sophronius, to Pope Martin I at the Lateran Council, Mansi, x., 893) CONSTANTINOPLE: St. John Chrysostom, Patriarch of Constantinople (c. 387): "For this is the one great privilege of our city, Antioch, that it received the leader of the Apostles (Peter) as its teacher in the beginning. For it was right that she who was first adorned with the name of Christians, before the whole world, should receive the first of the apostles as her pastor. But though we received him as teacher, we did not retain him to the end, but gave him up to royal Rome." (Chrysostom, On the Inscription of the Acts, II. Taken from Documents Illustrating Papal Authority (London: SPCK, 1952), E. Giles, Ed., p. 168. Cf. Chapman, Studies on the Early Papacy, p. 96). "And why, then, passing by the others, does He converse with Peter on these things? (John 21:15). He was the chosen one of the Apostles, and the mouth of the disciples, and the leader of the choir. On this account, Paul also went up on a time to see him rather than the others (Galatians 1:18). And withal, to show him that he must thenceforward have confidence, as the denial was done away with, He puts into his hands the presidency over the brethren. And He brings not forward the denial, nor reproches him with what had past, but says, 'If you love me, preside over the brethren, ...and the third time He gives him the same injunction, showing what a price He sets the presidency over His own sheep. And if one should say, 'How then did James receive the throne of Jerusalem?,' this I would answer that He appointed this man (Peter) teacher, not of that throne, but of the whole world." (Chrysostom, In Joan. Hom. 1xxxviii. n. 1, tom. viii) Eutyches the Monophysite (448): ....writing to Pope Leo the Great: "I take refuge, therefore, with you, the defender of religion and abhorrer of such factions. ...I beseech you not to be prejudiced against me by their insidious designs about me, but to pronounce the sentence which shall seem to you right upon the Faith." (Eutyches to Pope Leo, Ep. 21. ) Flavian, Patriarch of Constantinople (449): ...writing to Pope Leo: "When I began to appeal to the throne of the Apostolic See of Peter, the Prince of the Apostles, and to the whole sacred synod, which is obedient to Your Holiness, at once a crowd of soldiers surrounded me and barred my way when I wished to take refuge at the holy altar. ...Therefore, I beseech Your Holiness not to permit these things to be treated with indifference ...but to rise up first on behalf of the cause of our orthodox Faith, now destroyed by unlawful acts. ...Further to issue an authoritative instruction ...so that a like faith may everywhere be preached by the assembly of an united synod of fathers, both Eastern and Western. Thus the laws of the fathers may prevail and all that has been done amiss be rendered null and void. Bring healing to this ghastly wound. (Patriarch Flavian of Constantinople to Pope Leo, 449). The Council of Chalcedon (451) --composed of 600 Eastern bishops, to Pope Leo: "For if 'where two or three are gathered together in His name' He has said that 'there He is in the midst of them," must He not have been much more particularly present with 520 priests, who preferred the spread of knowledge concerning Him ...Of whom you were Chief, as Head to the members, showing your good will." ---Chalcedon to Pope Leo (Repletum est Gaudio), November 451. "You are set as an interpreter to all of the voice of blessed Peter, and to all you impart the blessings of that Faith." --- Chalcedon to Pope Leo, Ep. 98 all those churches were Catholic and the Pope presided until they broke away |
Re: Why I Want To Quit Catholicism by Ubenedictus(m): 9:55am On Mar 15, 2018 |
BluntTheApostle:actually there was a Catholic church even before others broke away, Constantinople, Antioch, Alexandria, Corinth etc were all regarded as Catholic and the Pope was presider over the church until some started to break away in schism. that is the truth and I just posted several ancient bishop all across the world showing that it was 1 Catholic church before the schism. |
Re: Why I Want To Quit Catholicism by Ubenedictus(m): 10:14am On Mar 15, 2018 |
BluntTheApostle:even before the council of chalcedon the church was already called the Catholic church since 107, at the council of chalcedon the church excommunicated the bishops of Alexandria because of the miaphyte heresy they teaching, those bishops form a faction called the Oriental Orthodox church, around 11th century the patriarch of Constantinople was excommunicated and that led to him forming the Greek Orthodox church. |
Re: Why I Want To Quit Catholicism by nwamehn: 11:58am On Mar 15, 2018 |
Ubenedictus: |
Re: Why I Want To Quit Catholicism by nwamehn: 11:59am On Mar 15, 2018 |
Ubenedictus: Lol. Boss, u didn't have to post all those literatures to prove ur point because ur points ar very clear. U mean that those churches were in communion with the Pope of Rome and for that were Catholics. I don't wish to enter that area of argument for now. My argument is that Catholic was not the first church and Peter wasn't the first Pope not whether the churches were in communion with Catholic at any point in time in their existence as u claim. Now my questions are these: 1. Before the church at Antioch began paying allegiance to the Pope of Rome according to u, what was it? Was it a Catholic church? 2. Before the church at Jerusalem were brought under the Pope of Rome according to u, what was the church at Jerusalem, was it a Catholic church? 3. Who was the Pope of the Roman Catholic church then overseeing the activities of the church at Antioch in Syria where the followers of Christ were first called Christians? |
Re: Why I Want To Quit Catholicism by Ubenedictus(m): 1:34pm On Mar 15, 2018 |
nwamehn:the Christian church both in Rome, Jerusalem, Antioch, Alexandria etc was always one, no denominations just one church, by 100 AD the church called itself "the Catholic church" to differentiate the Christians from the gnostic heretics. so all the church whether in Antioch or Alexandria or Rome were the Catholic church. 1. the head of the church was Peter while he was alive the headship of the church was once in Antioch but he Left for Rome and died there that is how church headship remained with the see of Rome as the cathedra of peter and the church of Paul. the church of Antioch was always the Catholic church, it always respected the Pope st Peter and from AD 60 when Peter was in Rome it has had all evidence to Rome. 2. the church in Jerusalem was the Catholic church, it was earlier under James, it was of course in communion with Peter, in 70AD the temple was destroyed and the church fled to the hills during the war and banishment of Jews, it was from here that the gospel spread, Jerusalem always had communion with Rome. 3. at that period the Pope was Peter, he wasn't yet in Rome. |
Re: Why I Want To Quit Catholicism by Nobody: 1:36pm On Mar 15, 2018 |
T5741418]I have been a Catholic all my life but studying my bible in my quest to know God more something happened that made me want to leavd the sect. I just want to ask some questions to Catholic Anybody who sincerely studies the Scriptures will evidently see the contradiction between it and roman catholism. 1. What is the highest authority in Christianity where doctrines can be gotten? The Bilble or the experience of our leadersthe highest authority is the scripture even the devil knows it. 2. Why do we need the Vrigin Mary and other saints to intercede for us when holy spirit Romans 8 vs 26 and Jesus Christ Romans 8 vs 34? Does Jesus love his mother more than us? I thought he said those that do his works are his brethren? Don't you think we are undermining the love God has for us?You don't need virgin Mary or any other apart from Jesus Christ of Nazareth. 3. Why do we refer to ourselves as sinners but the Bible in Colossians 1vs 13-14 and Ephesian 1vs 7 said we have been redeemed from sin?roman catholism makes men twice as hell as a sinner 4. Why do we undermine the ministry of the holy spirit? We were made to believe that the gift of the spirit like speaking in touges, word of knowledge and so on are for some set of people who had the grace?mary, saints, angels, popes, and priest have replaced the holy Spirit. Please I need answers. The answer is roman catholism is not Christianity it is a satanic organization set to lead people to hell. 1 Like |
Re: Why I Want To Quit Catholicism by BluntTheApostle(m): 1:54pm On Mar 15, 2018 |
Ubenedictus: The Roman Catholic Church was not the first Church. The term "Catholic" had been used by the Christian Church as referral to her universality. There was one Church and when it split, the earliest churches such as the Roman Catholic Church came to be. All the cities had Bishops who were called Popes but all the churches were regarded collectively as the Christian Church. |
Re: Why I Want To Quit Catholicism by nwamehn: 3:10pm On Mar 15, 2018 |
Ubenedictus: So, my man, u mean that the headquarters of the Catholic church was at Antioch before it was moved to Rome when Peter went there, am I right? 2. The first time or times that the churches at Antioch, Jerusalem, Corinth, etc decided to be called Catholic church according to u, did they all agree in a meeting to be called Catholic church or did they decide to be called Catholic churches at different times in their separate histories? 3. U rightly said that the name Catholic church came into existence in 100 AD when they chose to be called Catholic church to distinguish from heretics, and that before then, they were just Christian church, so, what u mean is that there was Christian church before the name Catholic church came into existence, isn't it? |
Re: Why I Want To Quit Catholicism by Ubenedictus(m): 5:24pm On Mar 15, 2018 |
nwamehn: 1. yes first in Jerusalem, later Antioch then Rome. 2. I don't know if they had a meeting, the first written documents that refer to the church as the Catholic church was written by Ignatius bishop of Antioch about 107 AD he wrote it as if everybody already knew that the church was called Catholic church... he wrote several letters one to Rome, one the the church in Smyrna the other to the Ephesians etc he was killed by the empire by been fed to beasts. all the Christian writings from around and after him from all over simply use the same Catholic church like every one already knew it not necessary at different times but more like they all knew it was the name of the church. 3. not true, I was called baby until 2 days after I was born the my parents named me ubenedictus does that mean the person called baby before is different from the person called ubenedictus? or are they different titles for the same person? I believe it is the same me first called baby now called ubenedictus. the church used to called the way, then when it followers were called Christians in Antioch it started to be called the Christian church the same church was finally called the Catholic church, it doesn't mean the Catholic church came after the Christian church, rather the same church previously called the way was called Christian and later Catholic. |
Re: Why I Want To Quit Catholicism by Ubenedictus(m): 5:35pm On Mar 15, 2018 |
BluntTheApostle:not true either, the term Catholic was actually first used to distinguish the church from the heretics and schismatic who hadn't valid bishops. the entire church in communion with Rome was Catholic excluding the heretics and schismatics. even before the split the church was already called Catholic and the bishop of Rome presided over the church. even after the heretics at chalcedon were excommunicated, the church was still called Catholic, the excommunicated people called themselves Oriental, after the patriarch of Constantinople was excommunicated the church was still called Catholic, the excommunicated ones started to call themselves Greek Orthodox. before the split the church was already called the Catholic church. |
Re: Why I Want To Quit Catholicism by BluntTheApostle(m): 6:41pm On Mar 15, 2018 |
Ubenedictus: SMH... Before the split, we had the Bishops of Constantinople and those of western Rome. There was no Roman Catholic Church (Perhaps, I ought to include "Roman" ) until 1054. The popes in western Rome got powerful over time but that was all about it, it had nothing to do with divinity, and the bishops of Constantinople were always in constant frictions with them. It was when the Church split in 1054, that we had the eastern half becoming the Orthodox Church and the western half becoming the Roman Catholic Church. My argument is that before the split, there was no "Roman" Catholic Church (or what we know as the Catholic Church today). |
Re: Why I Want To Quit Catholicism by Ubenedictus(m): 7:04pm On Mar 15, 2018 |
BluntTheApostle:there was the Catholic church, the "Roman" thing was an adjective the Anglicans started to use when they wanted to call themselves Catholics. it was always the Catholic church and even before the schism was presided by the bishop of Rome. before the split there was already the Catholic church presided by the bishop of Rome... if that is what you mean by "Roman" Catholic church... then it certainly existed before the schism. |
Re: Why I Want To Quit Catholicism by BluntTheApostle(m): 7:16pm On Mar 15, 2018 |
Ubenedictus: I employed the word "Roman" to clarify a point. It is not to create a debate. My point is, there was no "Roman" Catholic Church until after the split. The Catholic Church (the "Roman" ) did not happen until after the split. Before the split, there was a single church which would split into two. If you have materials supporting the claim that there had been a conscious Catholic Church (as of today) before the split, I would like to read it. Until then, my argument remains that the word "Catholic" identified a single assembly which would later split into the Orthodox Church and the Roman Catholic Church. Even today, just as the Catholic Church claims to be the Church that Christ established in Jerusalem, the Orthodox churches do too. |
Re: Why I Want To Quit Catholicism by nwamehn: 10:03pm On Mar 15, 2018 |
Ubenedictus: Boss, that the body of Christ can be referred to as the Christian church doesn’t mean that the churches didn’t have their distinct identifications and values. The churches at Jerusalem and Antioch were clearly called the churches at Jerusalem and Antioch respectively in the Bible and the Bible never said that the church at Antioch was not the church at Antioch but Christian church and should always be referred to as so. Some of those early churches still had distinct beliefs just as Catholic, Anglican, Winners, Deeper Life etc today have their distinct beliefs but they were/are all part of the body of Christ. Catholic, Anglican, Winners, Deeper Life are all part of the Christian church, what make them different are their other beliefs in addition to the belief in Christ and who directs each of them. I mean, they all believe in one true God – Christ but have other beliefs they also attach as part of their doctrines and also follow the directives of different people, these ar all that differentiate them. For example, Catholics believe that Mary should mediate between them and Jesus, but Anglicans don’t. Anglicans and Catholics believe in child baptism but Winners and Deeper Life don’t. Winners believe that women can wear trousers to church but Deeper Life don’t even believe that women can wear trousers anywhere; and many more. So also the church at Antioch, the church at Jerusalem both believed in one true God – Christ, but also had other distinct beliefs in their practices. For example, the church at Antioch under Barnabas and Paul believed that once you received Christ u were ok, but the church at Jerusalem under James believed that even after receiving Christ u must be circumcised and if not circumcised, they wouldn’t have anything to do with u – Acts 11 vs 2, that’s why they questioned Peter after he went to meet the gentiles, they also preached the word of God to the Jews only – Acts 11 vs 19, but the church at Antioch didn’t follow that rule. Peter was torn between following the doctrines of the church at Antioch and those of the church at Jerusalem. Even Paul rebuked him in Antioch – Gal 2 vs 11-12, when Peter started dissociating himself from the uncircumcised gentiles immediately he saw the members of the church at Jerusalem led by James approaching. There were also another group of Christians called Judaizers who were fellowshipping in Jerusalem but were of the belief that even after receiving Jesus, u must also follow the laws of Moses. Some churches founded recently still follow the old doctrines of Judaizing eg Seventh-day Adventist church. The church at Antioch was not under the church at Jerusalem and they didn’t have any general overseer or bishop or pope at Jerusalem whose command must be obeyed by the church at Antioch, worst still, the leader of the church at Antioch openly challenged some doctrines of the church at Jerusalem – Gal 2 vs 14. The church at Antioch still gave the followers of Christ in Judaea some gifts at a point in time, same as how the general overseer of Winners pays tithe to Redeemed Christian Church of God at times and other men of God give gifts and offering to Winners during Shiloh. It doesn’t change the fact that they ar separate churches with distinct beliefs and who they follow directives from. U see the clear distinctions, yet they professed the same Christ. If it were to be now, we would have easily called them denominations since they had some different doctrines and were never answerable to each other. The entire body of Christ has always been one with many distinct groups under just as the body of Christ is still one today with many distinct groups like Catholic, Anglican, Winners, Deeper Life, etc. If u think that there is any other thing that differentiates Deeper Life and Winners or Catholic aside their beliefs, doctrines and whose directives they follow, then u can tell me. So, the original name of the church at Antioch was simply The Church at Antioch – Acts 13, the Christian church is just a name for the entire body of Christ which all churches irrespective of where they ar situated are part of. If u say that in the early days there was nothing like church at Antioch or church at Jerusalem but just Christian church, then we can also say that today, there is nothing like Catholic church or Anglican church but just Christian church. 2. I believe u know the roles Barnabas and Paul played in the church at Antioch, they set the church up, nurtured it and the church followed their directives – Acts 11 vs 26. If u say that the church at Antioch was Roman Catholic because they began having communion with and paying allegiance to the Pope of the Roman Catholic church at a point in time in their history, in that case we will also say that the church at Antioch was first Barnabas and Paul’s church before they became Catholic church because they had been having communion with and following directives from Barnabas and Paul and their successors years before they switched allegiance to the Pope of Rome. Or do u suggest we eliminate that part of history and just start from when they began paying allegiance to the Pope? |
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