I was talking to a muslim brother sometimes ago and one thing led to another and he made a statement that Allah has predestined EVERYTHING and we are all just following his script, Tho, I disagreed with him back then until what i call "what if" episodes started then I know I have some serious decision to make concerning this... Any advise or insights?

keentola:
I was talking to a muslim brother sometimes ago and one thing led to another and he made a statement that Allah has predestined EVERYTHING and we are all just following his script, Tho, I disagreed with him back then until what i call "what if" episodes started then I know I have some serious decision to make concerning this... Any advise or insights?

# Kindly help ask the said brother: If Allah has predestined everything and everything (especially man) are only following His scripts (whether we like it or not), then:

* What's the essence of Paradise for good doers and hell fire for evil doers since He himself predestined their respective deeds and they must follow it robotically?

Then, where is His justice when He has predestined a particular man to an hired killer or armed robber, and he worked in line with that divine script; then God throw him inside hell?

* What's the essence of freewill and intellect He has given to man (according several verses of Qur'an)?

* What's the essence of 1000s of messengers and Prophets He has sent to guide mankind to the straight path and warn them from destructive path?

* What's the essence of divine books of guidance?


Qadar (Measure) and Qada (Divine Decree)
Each creature is a contingent being (mumkin al-wujud) and has a particular existential limit and extent. All things other than God exist in a particular way, are limited in differing degrees, take on different modes of existence (for example the shape and structure of man leaving out human deliberate or indeliberate tampering, design of man's environment to suit him, classification of animals etc).

This initial measuring out (taqdir) of all things comes from Him alone. Therefore this measuring out existence can be understood as an act of God: it is referred to as 'active determination and apportioning in act'. This, in turn, is to be understood in the light of the following: Before creating a thing, God already knows it in its unmanifest state of latency or potentiality; this being referred to as 'determination and apportioning in knowledge'.


Commentary on Qada

This is to be understood as the bestowal of definitive existence upon an entity. Naturally, the process by which this definitive existence is attained rests upon the operation of the law of cause and effect. A thing receives its existence as a result of the complete actualisation of the cause of its existence. This law of causality derives ultimately from God. There is an 'active qada' which operates at the level of creation, and an 'essential qada' which pertains to God's eternal knowledge of all things such as they are before they come into being.

Divine Predestination and Freewill
At an era in Muslim history, we have a group who believed in absolute predetermination (jabr), and therewith the negation of free will (ikhtiyar). On the other hand, at the same or other era, another Muslim group also preached absolute freewill.

Divine predestination is not in the least incompatible with human free will. Man has been ordained a free agent, capable of choosing to perform or abstain from his actions. The divine decree in regard to human action is that, once the will and desire to perform a given action are established, the action will follow decisively. In other words, the very creation of man inherently comprises freedom as regards human will, along with its capacity to evaluate and judge; in this respect, the divine decree is that whenever man decides upon an action, and possesses the necessary means to perform it, a divine power brings into effect the accomplishment of the action in question.

Man determines his destiny by means of his own decision, from intellectual point of view. From the religious point of view also, man is deemed to have the capacity to be either pious and grateful or impious and wicked, as Qur'an says:

" Verily, We have shown him the way, whether he be grateful or disbelieving" [Sura al-Insan: 3]


# In sha Allah, I promise to discuss more especially obscure verses of the Qur'an where Allah says "He forgives or lead astray whoever He wishes".

Wa salam alaykum.

^^^Albaqir,

You are kinda twisting Allah's words and contradicting.

Allah clearly said he's "All-knowing" he's has planned everything.

Do you not know that Allah knows what is in the heaven and earth? Indeed, that is in a Record. Indeed that, for Allah, is easy. (Quran 22:70)

Every action has been pre-ordained by an external agent/force e.g God.

Even one's Freewill has been planned by this God(the story of shaytan and Adam, Eve), whether you act independently or dependently Allah still pre-ordained it, he knows, one only depend on two options, go to paradise or go to hell.

You're talking as if Allah wait for an action or decision to be done before knowing what to do, limiting your God.

As for your last paragraph, I'm looking forward to it.

tintingz:
^^^Albaqir,

You are kinda twisting Allah's words and contradicting.

Allah clearly said he's "All-knowing" he's has planned everything.

Do you not know that Allah knows what is in the heaven and earth? Indeed, that is in a Record. Indeed that, for Allah, is easy. (Quran 22:70)

Every action has been pre-ordained by an external agent/force e.g God.

Even one's Freewill has been planned by this God(the story of shaytan and Adam, Eve), whether you act independently or dependently Allah still pre-ordained it, he knows, one only depend on two options, go to paradise or go to hell.

You're talking as if Allah wait for an action or decision to be done before knowing what to do, limiting your God.

As for your last paragraph, I'm looking forward to it.

Really its tiring and fruitless open a chain of debate with you since you've rigidly and stubbornly chose a path (Atheism). Besides, we are discussing God here, and the last time I check, you no longer believe in Him nor His attributes. Be a gentleman, kindly let those who believe in Him be. Is there no freedom of though and belief in your atheism?


# Anyway, to those who believe in God, all-knowing knowledge of God is not synonymous to forcing His creature to do according to His plan. You can have pre-knowledge of the outcome of something while you leave it to take its normal course. Man has ability to to choose, to decide, to abide and to alter.

# There are some preordained cause and effect that man has no say on it, for example, Qadar (Measure) of all things as explained earlier (above). Our natural environment (seasons, day, night, etc) is chosen for us. Yet man still has ability to alter the state to some extent.

However, as per Qada (divine decree), there is nothing like God has chosen Paradise or hell for each individual and that he has no choice over it. That's why there is nothing like that in the Qur'an. To the contrary, Qur'an says:


Surah Al-Zalzala, Verse 7 - 8:

So. he who has done an atom's weight of good shall see it

And he who has done an atom's weight of evil shall see it.

In another verse, we read: "God does not do injustice of a thing to man, it is he who do zulm upon himself".


# It is man's God-given intellect and freewill that will lead man to his destination: paradise or hell. In fact, His ordainment is such a way that if you follow the right course (via your freewill), your inner self will be at ease; and should you follow the evil way (via your freewill), life will be difficult. Hence, Qur'an further says:

" By the soul, and the proportion and order given to it;

And its enlightenment as to its wrong and it's right;

Truly he succeeds (he) that purifies it

And he fails (he) that corrupts it" [surah ash-shams: 7 - 10]


# For your info, I do not believe in God that has forcefully by His Power and wish chose paradise and hell for man before man is even created or perform any action.

AlBaqir:



Really its tiring and fruitless open a chain of debate with you since you've rigidly and stubbornly chose a path (Atheism). Besides, we are discussing God here, and the last time I check, you no longer believe in Him nor His attributes. Be a gentleman, kindly let those who believe in Him be. Is there no freedom of though and belief in your atheism?

Criticism is open to any discussion especially when it comes to a public matter.

This thread is not only about God but about predestination and freewill.

# Anyway, to those who believe in God, all-knowing knowledge of God is not synonymous to forcing His creature to do according to His plan. You can have pre-knowledge of the outcome of something while you leave it to take its normal course. Man has ability to to choose, to decide, to abide and to alter.

Thank you for the bolded, you just accept humans can alter Allah's plan or knowledge, does this means Allah is not all knowing?

If Allah have pre-knowledge of his creation then he knows each end of his creation, it's just like a movie when you know the beginning and end of an actor as scripted, no freewill.

If I can know the beginning and end of the robot I invented, I can record down every event the robot will go through and how it will end, my robot will act "necessarily" on what I knew beforehand, is there freewill here?

And the worst part is, God get angry when his creation do wrong when he already knows what will happen.

# There are some preordained cause and effect that man has no say on it, for example, Qadar (Measure) of all things as explained earlier (above). Our natural environment (seasons, day, night, etc) is chosen for us. Yet man still has ability to alter the state to some extent.

Does Allah have knowledge of what we're about to alter, is it as planned?

However, as per Qada (divine decree), there is nothing like God has chosen Paradise or hell for each individual and that he has no choice over it. That's why there is nothing like that in the Qur'an. To the contrary, Qur'an says:


Surah Al-Zalzala, Verse 7 - 8:

So. he who has done an atom's weight of good shall see it

And he who has done an atom's weight of evil shall see it.

In another verse, we read: "God does not do injustice of a thing to man, it is he who do zulm upon himself".


# It is man's God-given intellect and freewill that will lead man to his destination: paradise or hell. In fact, His ordainment is such a way that if you follow the right course (via your freewill), your inner self will be at ease; and should you follow the evil way (via your freewill), life will be difficult. Hence, Qur'an further says:

" By the soul, and the proportion and order given to it;

And its enlightenment as to its wrong and it's right;

Truly he succeeds (he) that purifies it

And he fails (he) that corrupts it" [surah ash-shams: 7 - 10]

Majority people in China are not Muslims, they are raised/indoctrinated to believe Islam to be false religion, is Allah aware of this? Don't forget Allah said those who reject him will be thrown to hell fire forever, now as a good and kind Chinese man that reject Allah where is he going, paradise or hell?

# For your info, I do not believe in God that has forcefully by His Power and wish chose paradise and hell for man before man is even created or perform any action.

God has already chosen paradise and hell for humans the moment he created this imaginary places.

If God does not have knowledge of where his creation will end up, that God is imperfect.

tintingz:


This thread is not only about God but about predestination and freewill.

[s]Thank you for the bolded, you just accept humans can alter Allah's plan or knowledge, does this means Allah is not all knowing?[/s]

Yeah, the thread is about predestination and freewill; as an Atheist, do you believe in the concept?

Why are you feeling insecure and uncomfortable on religious issues you do not believe in - concept of God, His attributes, predestination etc?

You should be free and not bother your head with those subject matter. Like I said earlier don't be a jerk, leave the matter to the religious.

AlBaqir:


Yeah, the thread is about predestination and freewill; as an Atheist, do you believe in the concept?

Why are you feeling insecure and uncomfortable on religious issues you do not believe in - concept of God, His attributes, predestination etc?

You should be free and not bother your head with those subject matter. Like I said earlier don't be a jerk, leave the matter to the religious.

Like I said earlier criticism is open to any discussion especially when it comes to public matters e.g religion, politics, tradition etc.

So when you talk about things concerning philosophical ideology or any other discussion and i find some irrationality and absurdity in it, I shouldn't debate it, question it or criticize it? It means I'm insecure? So people who engage in debates or criticism discussion are insecure?

You need to read more about philosophy.

tintingz:

So when you talk about things concerning philosophical ideology or any other discussion and i find some irrationality and absurdity in it, I shouldn't debate it, question it or criticize it? It means I'm insecure? So people who engage in debates or criticism discussion are insecure?

# Do you believe in predestination? Kindly answer that simple question without story.

AlBaqir:


# Do you believe in predestination? Kindly answer that simple question without story.

No, so?

# In sha Allah, I promise to discuss more especially obscure verses of the Qur'an where Allah says "He forgives or lead astray whoever He wishes".

Wa salam alaykum.


[/quote]
Hi, are you trying to say there are certain things Allah doesn't know about..
He knows all (ALL)..the ppl that we go to hell he knows already...
I stand to be corrected

Well my stance as a Muslim is not to care about what has been destined for me,since I've been made aware by his messenger that working and praying hard is the closest to success...

I then made up my mind to work and pray hard to achieve success in this life( by pursing a career,learning a skill,working for money) and the hereafter ( religious duties)

AlBaqir:


Yeah, the thread is about predestination and freewill; as an Atheist, do you believe in the concept?

Why are you feeling insecure and uncomfortable on religious issues you do not believe in - concept of God, His attributes, predestination etc?

You should be free and not bother your head with those subject matter. Like I said earlier don't be a jerk, leave the matter to the religious.

Why are you fidgety? A discussion is open to all provided it's based on intellectual and devoid of name calling.....
The op raised a serious discussion, a very troubling one at that...give you opinion as per your understanding and let others do theirs.....
If God is all knowing then there is no freewill and if there is freewill then He is not all-knowing...it's simple and direct

I believe that in one of the Prophet hadith, he said,
"... Every man while in our mother's womb. He is commanded to issue four decrees: to record his sustenance, his life span, his deeds and [whether he will be] unhappy [by entering Hell] or happy [by entering Paradise]. I swear by Allah, other than whom there is no God, certainly one of you will perform the deeds of the people of Paradise until there is between him and Paradise except an arm’s length, and then what has been recorded will overtake him and he shall perform the deeds of the people of Hell and enter it. And, certainly, one of you will definitely perform the acts of the people of Hell until there is not between him and Hell except an arm’s length and then what has been recorded for him will overtake him and he shall perform the deeds of the people of Paradise and enter it.” (Recorded in Bukhari and Muslim).

Given the above, just like what Albaqir said, there are events in ones life which are pretty much ordained. However, this does not mean that every action we took are already predetermined.

FroshPapie:



# In sha Allah, I promise to discuss more especially obscure verses of the Qur'an where Allah says "He forgives or lead astray whoever He wishes".

Wa salam alaykum.



Hi, are you trying to say there are certain things Allah doesn't know about..
He knows all (ALL)..the ppl that we go to hell he knows already...
I stand to be corrected

DO NOT MAKE MISTAKE, ALLAH KNOWS ALL BUT EVERYBODY HAS FREEWILL TO DO ANYTHING( THAT IS THE REASON WHY WE ARE RECITE GUIDE US TO THE RIGHT PATH IN OUR DAILY PRAYERS).

Yeah, absolutely He has predestined everything. We are playing in tandem with His script.

tintingz:
Criticism is open to any discussion especially when it comes to a public matter.

This thread is not only about God but about predestination and freewill.

Thank you for the bolded, you just accept humans can alter Allah's plan or knowledge, does this means Allah is not all knowing?

If Allah have pre-knowledge of his creation then he knows each end of his creation, it's just like a movie when you know the beginning and end of an actor as scripted, no freewill.

If I can know the beginning and end of the robot I invented, I can record down every event the robot will go through and how it will end, my robot will act "necessarily" on what I knew beforehand, is there freewill here?

And the worst part is, God get angry when his creation do wrong when he already knows what will happen.

Does Allah have knowledge of what we're about to alter, is it as planned?

Majority people in China are not Muslims, they are raised/indoctrinated to believe Islam to be false religion, is Allah aware of this? Don't forget Allah said those who reject him will be thrown to hell fire forever, now as a good and kind Chinese man that reject Allah where is he going, paradise or hell?

God has already chosen paradise and hell for humans the moment he created this imaginary places.

If God does not have knowledge of where his creation will end up, that God is imperfect.

Dude your understanding is less than adequate. Educated Muslims know the difference between Qadr and Qadar.

Go do something more productive with your time like sleeping

AlBaqir:



Really its tiring and fruitless open a chain of debate with you since you've rigidly and stubbornly chose a path (Atheism). Besides, we are discussing God here, and the last time I check, you no longer believe in Him nor His attributes. Be a gentleman, kindly let those who believe in Him be. Is there no freedom of though and belief in your atheism?


# Anyway, to those who believe in God, all-knowing knowledge of God is not synonymous to forcing His creature to do according to His plan. You can have pre-knowledge of the outcome of something while you leave it to take its normal course. Man has ability to to choose, to decide, to abide and to alter.

# There are some preordained cause and effect that man has no say on it, for example, Qadar (Measure) of all things as explained earlier (above). Our natural environment (seasons, day, night, etc) is chosen for us. Yet man still has ability to alter the state to some extent.

However, as per Qada (divine decree), there is nothing like God has chosen Paradise or hell for each individual and that he has no choice over it. That's why there is nothing like that in the Qur'an. To the contrary, Qur'an says:


Surah Al-Zalzala, Verse 7 - 8:

So. he who has done an atom's weight of good shall see it

And he who has done an atom's weight of evil shall see it.

In another verse, we read: "God does not do injustice of a thing to man, it is he who do zulm upon himself".


# It is man's God-given intellect and freewill that will lead man to his destination: paradise or hell. In fact, His ordainment is such a way that if you follow the right course (via your freewill), your inner self will be at ease; and should you follow the evil way (via your freewill), life will be difficult. Hence, Qur'an further says:

" By the soul, and the proportion and order given to it;

And its enlightenment as to its wrong and it's right;

Truly he succeeds (he) that purifies it

And he fails (he) that corrupts it" [surah ash-shams: 7 - 10]


# For your info, I do not believe in God that has forcefully by His Power and wish chose paradise and hell for man before man is even created or perform any action.

Bro you are far too noble and intelligent to be arguing with a riff raff. Don't allow him to sully your image. Such people enjoy fighting dirty.

Truth is clear from falsehood. Your anecdotal breakdown is truly intact, mashaAllah.

walex25:
I believe that in one of the Prophet hadith, he said,
"... Every man while in our mother's womb. He is commanded to issue four decrees: to record his sustenance, his life span, his deeds and [whether he will be] unhappy [by entering Hell] or happy [by entering Paradise]. I swear by Allah, other than whom there is no God, certainly one of you will perform the deeds of the people of Paradise until there is between him and Paradise except an arm’s length, and then what has been recorded will overtake him and he shall perform the deeds of the people of Hell and enter it. And, certainly, one of you will definitely perform the acts of the people of Hell until there is not between him and Hell except an arm’s length and then what has been recorded for him will overtake him and he shall perform the deeds of the people of Paradise and enter it.” (Recorded in Bukhari and Muslim).

Given the above, just like what Albaqir said, there are events in ones life which are pretty much ordained. However, this does not mean that every action we took are already predetermined.

# Am afraid what the above hadith seems to be saying is that Paradise and hell had been fixed for every individual before he was even born into this world; therefore, whatever he did does not really matter since his destiny will eventually overrule him.

# For a fact, I do not believe in such.


# Our discussion here is: Does God knows our destination - paradise or Hell, since we claim He is All-Knowing?

Our reply is simple and that is: Yes God is All-Knowing and He knows our end. But this knowledge does not translate to Him choosing our destination of either paradise or hell for us. Man choose that by the freewill and intellect given to him and there is always the grace of God.

Bimpe29:
Yeah, absolutely He has predestined everything. We are playing in tandem with His script.

# So if that is it, He is an unjust God for promising to punish evil doers.

# If that is it, then why would you seek for "justice" if for example, you are raped or your properties stolen? Are those criminals not playing according to His scripts like you have said?!

Fkhalifa:
Well my stance as a Muslim is not to care about what has been destined for me,since I've been made aware by his messenger that working and praying hard is the closest to success...

I then made up my mind to work and pray hard to achieve success in this life( by pursing a career,learning a skill,working for money) and the hereafter ( religious duties)

# That should simply reveal to you that destiny is created to be flexible whereby our actions (via freewill and intellect) can alter and have effect on it.

FroshPapie:


Hi, are you trying to say there are certain things Allah doesn't know about..
He knows all (ALL)..the ppl that we go to hell he knows already...
I stand to be corrected

# Kindly help me fish it out where I said such that there are certain things Allah doesn't know

# My point is crystal clear if you read carefully. Allah being All-Knowing does not translate to He has destined paradise and hell fire to everybody.

I am a Muslim , but I don't know why Muslim runs from arguing with an atheist, but if it had to be with Christain we will be forming paparazi.. forget about if he believes in God or not, he is arguing base on common sense, base on normal reasoning... Convince us with quranic chapter why he is not right, not rejecting his point.

AlBaqir:


# So if that is it, He is an unjust God for promising to punish evil doers.

# If that is it, then why would you seek for "justice" if for example, you are raped or your properties stolen? Are those criminals not playing according to His scripts like you have said?!

Blasphemous statement you spewed.

Al-qadar is a very complicated topic that requires a deep religious knowledge to be understood...using common sense would only lead one astray

peace unto u all(muslims/atheists alike)
i didnt want to comment on this but why wasting your time on islam?even saudis know today that islam is a Culture not a Religion.
Allah was madeup by muhammed
muhammed made several abrogations in the quran(in Allahs words ofcourse)
then the errors from an allknowing Allah that
#earth is flat
#humans become bloodclots b4 birth
#sun sets in a muddy stream of water
#zurqarnain held yajuj n majuj in an iron prison (that cant be located on earth)
#prophet shld marry as many wives
#permssion to indulge in slavery
#having sex wt male/female slaves
i can continue till eternity
#holding the skies withot pillers
etc....my brother islam is fake and its dieing,i dnt mean to offend anyone im talking about islam if anyone insults me ill take my pound of flesh from him.think well.

Bimpe29:


Blasphemous statement you spewed.

Haa. You should have think deep before you comment. Your comment is rather blasphemous.

AlBaqir:


Haa. You should have think deep before you comment. Your comment is rather blasphemous.

I can feel your misunderstanding.

Bimpe29:
I can feel your misunderstanding.

# Toor

Bimpe29:


Blasphemous statement you spewed.

Check the previous posts before jumping to accuse one of blasphemy

AlBaqir:


Haa. You should have think deep before you comment. Your comment is rather blasphemous.

I think he didn't read your previous replies.

beejaay:

Why are you fidgety? A discussion is open to all provided it's based on intellectual and devoid of name calling.....
The op raised a serious discussion, a very troubling one at that...give you opinion as per your understanding and let others do theirs.....
If God is all knowing then there is no freewill and if there is freewill then He is not all-knowing...it's simple and direct

Thank you for the bolded part.

That's the absurdity I'm trying to point out, one can't tell me Allah knows everything and yet there's freewill, that is illogical and crap.

Just take a look at Satan, it's either Allah doesn't know Satan will become evil or he knows but decided not to do anything like a malevolent god or he's not "all-powerful" god like he's said to be.

NotComplaining:



Dude your understanding is less than adequate. Educated Muslims know the difference between Qadr and Qadar.

Go do something more productive with your time like sleeping

Wrong, maybe your educated Muslims doesn't see the absurdity in putting together freewill and predestination, in a nutshell they don't understand what they means.