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How Corruption Works In Countries Like The USA! - Politics - Nairaland

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How Corruption Works In Countries Like The USA! by Seun(m): 8:04am On May 26, 2010
Source: http://www.reddit.com/r/Economics/comments/c84bp/how_realworld_corruption_works/

I'm a mid-career guy in a business that does a lot of work with governmental and quasi-governmental agencies. I've never ripped anyone off personally, but I have seen and occasionally been an incidental beneficiary of quite a bit of patronage, insider dealing, nepotism, misuse of taxpayer money, and outright corruption. While I have always been honest in my own dealings on a case-by-case basis, I have refrained from many opportunities to be a "whistleblower".

A lot of stuff on reddit misunderstands the relationships between wealth, power, and influence. For starters, all the above three are always and have always been inter-related, and probably always will be. And that might not always be a bad thing: those who have risen to high levels of wealth are often pretty smart, and surprisingly often exceptionally honest. Those who rise to high levels of influence usually have some pretty good insight and talent in their area of expertise. Those who have acquired a lot of power tend to be good at accomplishing things that lots of people want to see happen.

None of which is purely democratic, nor even purely meritocratic, but there is a certain dose of both kind of baked into the cake: stuff like wealth or family connections only gets you so far in modern, developed, and relatively open and transparent societies such as the US. And while that can be pretty far by normal standards, at some point sunlight does shine through any crack, and outright robbery or complete incompetence is difficult to sustain indefinitely.

But there is an awful lot of low-level waste, patronage, and corruption that happens both in the private and in the public sector.

Without going ideological, the private sector in a free-ish market has a more immediate system of checks and balances if only because you have to actually persuade the end users to keep buying your stuff for the price you're charging: if it's no good, or if you are grossly over-charging, your customers will tend to catch on sooner or later.

But in the public sector, the "consumer" often has little choice,  so-called "market discipline" is a lot more diffuse when you have a former-schoolteacher-or-real-estate-broker-turned city councilman whose job it is to disburse a multi-million-dollar street-paving contract or whatever. And neither the schoolteacher nor the real-estate broker has any clue how to write or evaluate a road-paving contract,

Let's say that there are three credible bidders for that street-paving contract:

[list][li]Bidder 1 is "Paver Joe", a local guy with a driveway-paving company and three trucks who sees this as a big opportunity to expand his business and get the city to pay for five new trucks. He puts in a dirt-cheap bid that he wrote up himself with the help of his estate attorney. The cost to taxpayers is very low, but the certainty that he will complete it on schedule and as specified is a little iffy. Paver Joe plans to work overtime and bust his tail on the job, not for profits, but to grow his business. He's offering the taxpayers a great deal, but a slightly risky one.[/li]

[li]Bidder 2 is "Muni Paver Inc", a company who has the experience and expertise to do the job, who knows what's involved and who has done this work before. They already have the trucks, their workers are all unionized and paid "prevailing wage", everything will be done by the book, all their EPA certifications are in place, etc,  The bid is a lot more expensive than Paver Joe, but it's credible and reliable. They are offering the taxpayers a degree of certainty and confidence that Paver Joe cannot match.[/li]

[li]Bidder 3 is me, "Corruptocorp". Instead of Paver Joe's 2-page contract with typos, or Muni-Paving's 20-page contract, I'm offering the city council a full package of videos, brochures, and a 40-page contract with a price just a tad higher than Paver Joe (my quoted price is meaningless, as we will see). Moreover, I'm inviting the city council to Corruptocorp-owned suites in a golf resort near my headquarters to give my presentation (all expenses paid, of course, and of course, bring your spouses). There the city council members will, after the first day of golf, dinner, dancing, and cocktails, see a slideshow and chorus-line of smiling multi-ethnic faces and working mothers talking about how much Corruptocorp's paving improved their town and their lives. I'll then stand up and tell a self-effacing joke about being one of those corporate guys trying to get their money, and then I'll wax a bit emotional about my small-town roots and how Corruptocorp was started by a man with a simple dream to make life better for everyone, and to do well by doing good in local communities, and that we actually plan to hire local contractors such as Joe's Paving to do the work, backed our economies of scale and reliability. I'll mention that paragraph 32 subsection B of our proposal mandates twice-yearly performance reviews by the city council, to of course be held at the golf resort, at Corruptocorp's expense, ("so I hope to see you all back here every February and August!"wink, and of course I make sure that each of them has my "personal" cell phone and home numbers in case they have any questions.[/li][/list]   

So needless to say I get the bid, and six months later it's time for our review at the golf resort. After dinner and cocktails I step up to the podium and announce that there is both good news and bad news:

"The bad news is that our subcontractor has found over 1,000 rocks in the road. And as I'm sure you know, paragraph 339 subsection D.12 specifies that any necessary rock removal will be done at prevailing wages, currently $1,500 per rock, for a total cost overrun of $1.5 million. But the good news is (and believe me, I had to fight long and hard for this with the board of directors), Corruptocorp has agreed to remove those rocks for only $1,000 apiece! So even though there have been some cost overruns, your smart decisions have saved your taxpayers [b]half a million dollar[/b]s! Give yourselves a round of applause!"

"Now, the other situation is that there has been some 'difficult terrain' as described in subsection 238b, which I'm sure you're all familiar with. And as you know, 'difficult terrain' is not covered by the contract, which is for paving, not for turning mountains into flat roads,  (wistful chuckle). Now, technically, according to the contract, we should be charging your town prevailing rates for these sections, but I've worked it so that you will be allowed to re-bid them, if you wish, since our contract doesn't specifically include terrain as described in subsection 238b."


Now the contract price has doubled, and Corruptocorp has completely sidestepped all of the difficult and costly work, taking profits only on the easy stuff. The city council members can either admit that they were duped and bought (political suicide), or can simply feed Corruptocorp's line to the voters. Which do you think will happen?

And it gets even worse on smaller scales: look up your local building or electrical inspector. Ten-to-one he is a relative, friend, or campaign donor to the mayor or city council. What's in it for him? Every single construction or home improvement project not only has to pay him a fee, it also has to pass his inspection. Guess which contractors are most likely to pass his inspection? His brothers, friends, family,  or the cheapest guy who for some reason has a hard time finding work in this town? Guess how the local inspector feels about homeowner self-improvements: does he think they are a great way for regular people to improve their wealth with a little elbow grease, or does he see them as stealing work from his friends and family?

The US military is by far the most wasteful customer I've ever had. I'll talk about that if this topic gets any interest.

Source: http://www.reddit.com/r/Economics/comments/c84bp/how_realworld_corruption_works/
Re: How Corruption Works In Countries Like The USA! by Seun(m): 8:15am On May 26, 2010
Source: http://www.reddit.com/r/Economics/comments/c84bp/how_realworld_corruption_works/c0qrt6i

So I said I would talk about the US Military if this got any interest. Here goes:

The US Department of Defense (hereafter DOD) has put in place a ton of procedural protections to stave off corruption. And God knows they need protection: only in the DOD can you find a 20-something purchasing officer who knows nothing about the stuff he's buying, who makes around $30k per year, and who is in charge of a half-billion-dollar budget.

For starters, low-paid people with large purchasing budgets are the easiest to corrupt outright. Find someone makes $30,000 per year but who has a $10m budget, and you have struck gold: it doesn't even require outright bribery.

Just show up at their office and mention that you might have some product for them to take a look at, "Can you spare some time this weekend? I have tickets to the playoffs if you're free, Whoa!? You're a fisherman? Let's forget about business: why not have the family come by the beach house? I just got a new boat and the stripers are running, we'll talk business later, "

Take a guy living in a military-base trailer out fishing on a yacht or to courtside seats, take him on a golf weekend, or to front-row seats at an A-list concert, hell, even just take him and his lady to a swank restaurant, and you've made a new best friend. And if he happens to be in charge of a $10m budget, that lavish night might be about to pay for itself 100,000 times over.

And all that assumes that you did not actually have a stripper with a cell-phone camera waiting in the car after the concert, we haven't even talked about blackmail, so why bring it up? Especially considering that these days, you don't even have to blackmail someone to blackmail them-- just linking your pics to their facebook, or setting up a "my party with Joe Blow" web page can ruin their life without malice or legal consequence, We're just posting our own party pics!

The DOD grades proposals with a color-grading system that is basically equivalent to letter grades.

The way it works is: the purchasing officer or whomever writes the spec ("request for quote"-- in normal business this called a "request for proposal" or "RFP". The DOD calls it an "RFQ". Whatever.). The spec is written as numbered sentences/paragraphs. Companies write bids that answer each number, with a bottom-line price.

A technical review committee sees the proposals with the price and supplier blacked out, and "grades" each proposal based on how well it meets the spec. The purchasing officer then sees the "grades" from the technical review, with the prices alongside (but not the complete proposals). Depending on his instructions, he may be required to either sign for the best overall value, highest overall grade, lowest acceptable cost, etc.

All of this seems very official and corruption-proof, until you realize that the original request for proposal came from, say, a 65-year-old Naval Admiral who knows everything about Oceanic warfare but nothing at all about computers, who assigned his 20-something first mate to write the spec and request for funding, who knows nothing about purchasing and who in turn wrote a spec (two years ago) that required Core2duo computers with 2GB ram and Windows XP and who required computers that meet the spec,

By the time Congress approves the funding, the spec is obsolete, and it costs far more to buy a bunch of obsolete Core2Duo machines with 2GB RAM than it would have cost to buy more-powerful computers at Costco.

The over-technicality and protectiveness of the DOD actually makes it one of the most vulnerable purchasing systems anywhere. As a technical officer who was interested in my product told me: "Don't worry about the review process, we'll just let you guys write the spec". If the military wants a Mercedes, they just issue a spec that requires a hood ornament with three lines trisecting a circle, and see whichever car company meets the spec at the best price-- surprise! They get the contract. Which means that the DOD is probably the only buyer in the world paying sticker price.

Source: http://www.reddit.com/r/Economics/comments/c84bp/how_realworld_corruption_works/c0qrt6i
Re: How Corruption Works In Countries Like The USA! by PapaBrowne(m): 9:45am On May 26, 2010
Shows that all humans have tendencies for corruption, whether in Africa or USA, Europe or Asia.
The difference however is that some countries have in place systems that effectively check corrupt practices.

In the USA, CorruptoCorp and the council officials would get away with their deeds for the first, second and maybe third time, however sooner than later Paver Joe and Muni Paver would begin to raise eyebrows. In the nick of time Corruptocorp and council officers would have their day in court and probably end up behind bars.
In Nigeria on the other hand, Corruptocorp is king. In the nick of time everybody would be on his payroll including the judge and the law enforcers.

Bottomline is that the incentive for corruption in Nigeria is extremely rewarding with no risks attached. In the USA, the risks far outweigh the benefits.


Another thing this article brings out is the role of contracts in corruption., Why must projects be done via conventional bidding contracts? Can't we find another more reliable system?? Maybe contract prices should be determined before they are given out and afterwards the selected contractor would be allowed to put a percentage as profits. Or something else. Just not conventional bidding!
Re: How Corruption Works In Countries Like The USA! by Nobody: 10:13am On May 26, 2010
PapaBrowne:

Shows that all humans have tendencies for corruption, whether in Africa or USA, Europe or Asia.
The difference however is that some countries have in place systems that effectively check corrupt practices.

Exactly! Wish the gullible masses knew that. It makes no sense to rejoice over dubious tokenisms such as the Ibori charade and Ogbulafor soap opera. Instead, let them FIGHT for the entrenchment of institutional mechanisms for an effective and impartial war on corruption. All humans have the natural tendency to gain competitive advantage via illegal/corrupt means. Only an institutionalized system can neutralize these innate proclivities on a mass scale - thereby ensuring collective 'good behaviour'.
Re: How Corruption Works In Countries Like The USA! by Nobody: 10:20am On May 26, 2010
pro01:

Exactly! Wish the gullible masses knew that. It makes no sense to rejoice over dubious tokenisms such as the Ibori charade and Ogbulafor soap opera. Instead, let them FIGHT for the entrenchment of institutional mechanisms for an effective and impartial war on corruption. All humans have the natural tendency to gain competitive advantage via illegal/corrupt means. Only an institutionalized system can neutralize these innate proclivities on a mass scale - thereby ensuring collective 'good behaviour'.

The institutionalization you are talking about is a gradual process. One that cannot be acheived without making an example of the conspicously corrupt individuals! If you weren't so daft, you'd know that! tongue
Re: How Corruption Works In Countries Like The USA! by deebsman1(m): 12:46pm On May 26, 2010
Hmm, thoughtful thread.
Re: How Corruption Works In Countries Like The USA! by lagerwhenindoubt(m): 1:21pm On May 26, 2010
Ujujoan:

The institutionalization you are talking about is a gradual process. One that cannot be achieved without making an example of the[b] conspicuously corrupt individuals![/b] If you weren't so daft, you'd know that!  tongue


True, True and True that, but institutions are simply the foundation that determine how the system should work. It requires a strong POLITICAL WILL to ensure that the same penalties for working outside the institution is met on all and sundry. Yes make an example of Ibori and also put Tinubu, Odili, PHCN Officials, Ajaokuta Steel Committees, Obasanjo etc. I agree it is a gradual process but if the process of corruption is moving faster than the process of de-corruption, then there will hardly be a time when the levels of corruption will become insignificant enough to allow the institutional framework work the way it is supposed to
Re: How Corruption Works In Countries Like The USA! by marvix(m): 1:52pm On May 26, 2010
This article has indeed put corruption in the proper perspective, like in the case of corruptorich corp if the project was easy he cld have gone ahead to complete and make beautiful profits and still share to the council officials as a gift or appreciation which may not be taken for bribes.

The biggest problem here in Nigeria is the outright stealing, thats why people like Ibori can and should be dealt with without following any rules because in their corrupt acts they followed no rules, but at the end of the day you realise that u cant solve corruption with corruption just like two wrongs dont make anything right.

This brings me to Yaraduas modus operandi in fighting crime, his idea is that if u must fight corruption you must fight it in a transparent manner, he was trying to lay a foundation for an institutionalised way to fighting corruption, that means he doesnt directly or indirectly interfer in the prosecution as could be seen in the Iboris case when he was alive, even Alams told us that Yaradua told him give them what you want I will give you Pardon, that is where his power is!!! not shielding anyone from trial Ibori went to court and insisted that his trial be moved to delta where the crimes were supposed to have been commited he won that and went ahead and got a favor from his chief judge friend and how do u blame him for that now EFCc has d right and power to appeal and the truth be said Ibori may not have the powers to promise any Judge anything anymore.

If we must solve corruption we need to bring it into the right perspective, Obj was corrupt because the system allowed him to, the cabal under Yaradua was corrupt because d system allows them to and Jonathan could end up corrupt because of the system. We should actually define corruption, If an officer takes his time and does his job searching all necessary papers of my vehicle and does not find me wanting and asks me Sir what do u have for your boys and I give him 500 naira can that be said to be a corrupt act, what if my licence expired 2 days ago and I plead with him to let me go that i would renew it by next week because of my busy schedule and give him 1000 naira for his understanding would that be hurting the system and should it be classified the same as failing to search a suspected vehicle by just collecting 1000 naira or finding guns in a vehicle and deciding to settle?
Re: How Corruption Works In Countries Like The USA! by marvix(m): 1:59pm On May 26, 2010
Seun the truth be said we need corruption to work that way in Nigeria first then we can start solving it.

As it stands now the entire country survives on corruption
Re: How Corruption Works In Countries Like The USA! by Nobody: 2:09pm On May 26, 2010
Ujujoan:

The institutionalization you are talking about is a gradual process. One that cannot be acheived without making an example of the conspicously corrupt individuals! If you weren't so daft, you'd know that!  tongue


I thought I warned you to stop stalking me like a star-struck lunatic; I can't stand the obnoxious stench emanating from your putrid womanliness (which, by the way no number of sanitary pads can conceal). Please go find a (doubtful) cure for your terminal venereal disease and let me be. In the likely event that you do not find a cure, save yourself the misery: hang yourself.
Re: How Corruption Works In Countries Like The USA! by SkyBlue1: 2:16pm On May 26, 2010
pro01:

Exactly! Wish the gullible masses knew that. It makes no sense to rejoice over dubious tokenisms such as the Ibori charade and Ogbulafor soap opera. Instead, let them FIGHT for the entrenchment of institutional mechanisms for an effective and impartial war on corruption. All humans have the natural tendency to gain competitive advantage via illegal/corrupt means. Only an institutionalized system can neutralize these innate proclivities on a mass scale - thereby ensuring collective 'good behaviour'.

How pathetic. Americans don't suffer from eppileptic power supply, poor infrastructure, and the myraid of basic problems still affecting Nigeria, yet you think it makes sense to to even attempt a justification of the trite that happens in a nation where people still die from polio? Una no dey shame?
Re: How Corruption Works In Countries Like The USA! by Nobody: 2:29pm On May 26, 2010
lagerwhenindoubt:

True, True and True that, but[b] institutions are simply the foundation that determine how the system should work[/b]. It requires a strong POLITICAL WILL to ensure that the same penalties for working outside the institution is met on all and sundry. Yes make an example of Ibori and also put Tinubu, Odili, PHCN Officials, Ajaokuta Steel Committees, Obasanjo etc. I agree it is a gradual process but if the process of corruption is moving faster than the process of de-corruption, then there will hardly be a time when the levels of corruption will become insignificant enough to allow the institutional framework work the way it is supposed to

I agree with the bolded parts. Indeed, the idea of "gradual process" in the fight against corruption does not hold water. There will never be sufficient political will to bring about an institutionalization of processes - no society has ever 'gradually' evolved to a state of development. Development is almost always ignited by a revolution, not an evolution. The USA and other Western/developed societies went through the phase of massive corruption and underdevelopment that we are in now, true, but they transcended that phase through the revolutionary efforts of both the masses and a courageous set of selfless leaders. In the case of Nigeria, since there is an acute shortage of courageous leaders that are willing to commit 'class suicide' by selflessly fighting corruption and institutionalizing good governance, the masses SHOULD AS A MATTER OF NECESSITY take the bull by the horns and force a peoples' revolution. ONLY this can root out corruption and set us on the path of development. All this 'gradual process' nonsense would never work; at least not in our life time. We can only talk of 'gradual process' to development AFTER the institutionalization of systems and process has been instituted. Examples like Singapore and Malaysia readily come to mind: how many years of "gradual process" did it take them to achieve First World status and virtually eradicate corruption? Less than a decade. Only the lazy, timid and gullible Nigerian masses would accept "gradual process" and prefer to wallow in their suffering.
Re: How Corruption Works In Countries Like The USA! by agitator: 3:04pm On May 26, 2010
pro01:

I agree with the bolded parts. Indeed, the idea of "gradual process" in the fight against corruption does not hold water. There will never be sufficient political will to bring about an institutionalization of processes - no society has ever 'gradually' evolved to a state of development. Development is almost always ignited by a revolution, not an evolution. The USA and other Western/developed societies went through the phase of massive corruption and underdevelopment that we are in now, true, but they transcended that phase through the revolutionary efforts of both the masses and a courageous set of selfless leaders. In the case of Nigeria, since there is an acute shortage of courageous leaders that are willing to commit 'class suicide' by selflessly fighting corruption and institutionalizing good governance, the masses SHOULD AS A MATTER OF NECESSITY take the bull by the horns and force a peoples' revolution. ONLY this can root out corruption and set us on the path of development. All this 'gradual process' nonsense would never work; at least not in our life time. We can only talk of 'gradual process' to development AFTER the institutionalization of systems and process has been instituted. Examples like Singapore and Malaysia readily come to mind: how many years of "gradual process" did it take them to achieve First World status and virtually eradicate corruption? Less than a decade. Only the lazy, timid and gullible Nigerian masses would accept "gradual process" and prefer to wallow in their suffering.

"Who will bell the cat"
Even the police and military men/women, especially the junior officers suffering the same fate are the people a few officers will order and they will start killing the masses.  Most times I don't know if to feel pity or hatred for them, while overhearing their complains.
Re: How Corruption Works In Countries Like The USA! by Nobody: 3:46pm On May 26, 2010
agitator:

"Who will bell the cat"
Even the police and military men/women, especially the junior officers suffering the same fate are the people a few officers will order and they will start killing the masses.  Most times I don't know if to feel pity or hatred for them, while overhearing their complains.

That's the unfortunate situation. I do not pity the masses at all; after all, every country has the leadership it deserves. All the lazy and gullible masses know how to do is to sheepishly join the orchestrated, hare-brained, and ultimately short-lived jubilation anytime a random Tafa or Alams or Ibori or Lucky Igbinedion gets a 'slap on the wrist' for falling out with the powers that be. Little do they know that the joke is on them (i.e. the masses). When they are ready to end corruption and bring about good government they know EXACTLY what to do. Pitiable lot; maybe Angel Gabriel will come down from Heaven to 'bell the cat' for them.
Re: How Corruption Works In Countries Like The USA! by OAM4J: 4:26pm On May 26, 2010
pro01:

That's the unfortunate situation. I do not pity the masses at all; after all, every country has the leadership it deserves. All the lazy and gullible masses know how to do is to sheepishly join the orchestrated, hare-brained, and ultimately short-lived jubilation anytime a random Tafa or Alams or Ibori or Lucky Igbinedion gets a 'slap on the wrist' for falling out with the powers that be. Little do they know that the joke is on them (i.e. the masses). When they are ready to end corruption and bring about good government they know EXACTLY what to do. Pitiable lot; maybe Angel Gabriel will come down from Heaven to 'bell the cat' for them.

So the leadership is corrupt, the followers are lazy, gullible, may be more corrupt than the leadership. Hence the people revolution you advocated for is unrealistic and you have no room for gradual process; what other option do you have or is Nigeria doomed?
Re: How Corruption Works In Countries Like The USA! by Nobody: 4:40pm On May 26, 2010
pro01:

I thought I warned you to stop stalking me like a star-struck lunatic; I can't stand the obnoxious stench emanating from your putrid womanliness (which, by the way no number of sanitary pads can conceal). Please go find a (doubtful) cure for your terminal venereal disease and let me be. In the likely event that you do not find a cure, save yourself the misery: hang yourself.


You should only speak when asked to! undecided
Re: How Corruption Works In Countries Like The USA! by Nobody: 4:48pm On May 26, 2010
lagerwhenindoubt:

True, True and True that, but institutions are simply the foundation that determine how the system should work. It requires a strong POLITICAL WILL to ensure that the same penalties for working outside the institution is met on all and sundry. Yes make an example of Ibori and also put Tinubu, Odili, PHCN Officials, Ajaokuta Steel Committees, Obasanjo etc. I agree it is a gradual process but if the process of corruption is moving faster than the process of de-corruption, then there will hardly be a time when the levels of corruption will become insignificant enough to allow the institutional framework work the way it is supposed to

While the istitutionalization of best practices against corruption is no doubt what this country needs, there's no denying the fact that Nigeria simply lacks the political will to ensure/sustain it. But that doesn't mean that we'll NEVER get there. Nor does is mean that bringing people, no matter how few, to justice is a bad move! undecided
Re: How Corruption Works In Countries Like The USA! by Kobojunkie: 5:16pm On May 26, 2010
Seun:

A lot of stuff on reddit misunderstands the relationships between wealth, power, and influence. For starters, all the above three are always and have always been inter-related, and probably always will be. And that might not always be a bad thing: those who have risen to high levels of wealth are often pretty smart, and surprisingly often exceptionally honest. Those who rise to high levels of influence usually have some pretty good insight and talent in their area of expertise. Those who have acquired a lot of power tend to be good at accomplishing things that lots of people want to see happen.

None of which is purely democratic, nor even purely meritocratic, but there is a certain dose of both kind of baked into the cake: stuff like wealth or family connections only gets you so far in modern, developed, and relatively open and transparent societies such as the US. And while that can be pretty far by normal standards, at some point sunlight does shine through any crack, and outright robbery or complete incompetence is difficult to sustain indefinitely.

But there is an awful lot of low-level waste, patronage, and corruption that happens both in the private and in the public sector.

Without going ideological, the private sector in a free-ish market has a more immediate system of checks and balances if only because you have to actually persuade the end users to keep buying your stuff for the price you're charging: if it's no good, or if you are grossly over-charging, your customers will tend to catch on sooner or later.


Loved the piece~
Re: How Corruption Works In Countries Like The USA! by sjeezy8: 5:54pm On May 26, 2010
Corruption isnt really a bad thing but you have to be good at what you do.
Just like Aganga said about banks- there are bad banks in Every country and not Nigeria alone.

Its the style in which most Nigerian politicians do things, just slow and archaic- stealing money directly from the treasury/ Government funds- Why do that?

As a politician there is already priority and connections over common people. That should be enough to get an Oil deal, Lime, Gold, Cement, private electric company, or steel factories and such. Theres so much money to be made in Nigeria without stealing from government funds.
Re: How Corruption Works In Countries Like The USA! by Nobody: 6:03pm On May 26, 2010
OAM4J:

So the leadership is corrupt, the followers are lazy, gullible, may be more corrupt than the leadership. Hence the people revolution you advocated for is unrealistic and you have no room for gradual process; what other option do you have or is Nigeria doomed?

My brother, it does seem to me that Nigeria is doomed. There is a trite cliché that says 'power belongs to be people'. Throughout history 'the people' have exercised this power in so many ways and in so many societies. In all my years of studying politics, law and history, I have never come across a people as docile and cowardly as Nigerians. No known socio-political theory seems fit. JFK Famously said that "those who make peaceful evolution impossible will make violent revolution inevitable". This hasn't been the case in Nigeria. Bertolt Brecht said that "when the present is intolerable, the unknown harbours no risk". For the Nigerian masses, this is not the case: the present is intolerable for them, yet they are too timid to venture into the unknown without fear. Or maybe things are not that bad yet. Maybe we have to believe Umaru Dikko who notoriously said that Nigerians cannot be said to be suffering until they start eating out of refuse dumps!

When they are ready for good governance, they know what to do (that is if their cowardice and docility will ever allow). Otherwise, let them continue to mock themselves in 'celebrating' the padi-padi 'war' on corruption. Like I said before, the joke is on them.
Re: How Corruption Works In Countries Like The USA! by paddylo1(m): 9:20pm On May 26, 2010
Corruption isnt really a bad thing but you have to be good at what you do.
Just like Aganga said about banks- there are bad banks in Every country and not Nigeria alone.

Its the style in which most  Nigerian politicians do things, just slow and archaic- stealing money directly from the treasury/ Government funds- Why do that?

As a politician there is already priority and connections over common people. That should be enough to get an Oil deal, Lime, Gold, Cement, private electric company, or steel factories and such. Theres so much money to be made in Nigeria without stealing from government funds.

[b]u hit the nail right on the head. . .thats why i cannot stand the likes of ogbulafor,who will form fake companies and award fake contracts to steal from govt

Why not form a real company,use your influence to get real contracts,execute it well
in the process hire Nigerians. . and before u know it your company will grow,u list it on the stock exchange and make more ppl rich

Thats how countries like india,indonesia south korea and so on did it
and thats why i have always liked obasanjos style. .

Under Obasanjo
Refineries were sold to cronies yes,today they would have been producing at full capacity
but it was cancelled by the inept yar a dull

Power companies were to be privatized and sold to cronies yes,now we would have been moving forward
but it was again stalled by the inept yar adull
NIPP same thing,NITEL sale same thing,Transcorp,Same thing
so we move around in circles,while other nations move ahead. .

Also Nigerians cant seem to understand that the more u keep these companies under govt control,the less money Govt will allocate to education,health or security
because they will have to keep spending money on power,NITEL salaries,TAM for refineries every yr with nothing to show. .

so yes our ppl are clueless,The lazy crooks that prefer to steal with no work deceive them and they say alleluyah
[/b]
Re: How Corruption Works In Countries Like The USA! by mbulela: 6:33am On May 27, 2010
I spoke to a few foreigners who were very curious about Africa and i told them that the biggest problem with the African continent (you can narrow it to Nigeria) is not poverty, it is not corruption and it is not a lack of democracy.
It is a lack of systems and institutions.
These things we think are problems are merely products of a lack of systems and institutions.
That is my problem with western aid.it attempts to eradicate poverty and provide healthcare.
The problem is that their are no systems or framworks to safeguard the aid, so it is business as usual.
Like a few posters above mentioned, establishment of these systems and frameworks can never materialise via a gradual process.There has to be an eruption that will dislodge the powers that be.A revolution not an evolution.
The crux of the matter is while we await a Pharoah that does not know Joseph, what do we do?
Is it not better to catch the Iboris, Bode George and Ogbulafors in the interim?
Me thinks it is better than doing absolutely nothing.
It will not solve the problem but ,
Re: How Corruption Works In Countries Like The USA! by mbulela: 6:40am On May 27, 2010
one more thing, you do not and cannot eradicate corruption.
You make it extremely risky and expensive for participants.
Irrespective of the risk, their will always be participants but the size of risk makes it unappealing for a huge majority of the people.
The only way we can make it very risky and expensive for participants is to have systems and frameworks that are agile,fluid and effective.
This is not about individuals but systems.
At present the only risk to stealing in Nigeria is not being in the right books of the powers that be.
Even then, the cost of falling out with the powers that be is very little compared to the loot available.
So the bazaar continues unabated.
Re: How Corruption Works In Countries Like The USA! by wazobiang: 7:28am On May 27, 2010
nobody said there is no corruption in every country. it is not blatant, irresponsible and stupid as in naija where you don't even get to know that a contract was awarded in the first place. where people who have worked for govt eventually are persecuted because they stepped on toes. no it cannot be like naija where we do not even know how much we are truly losing from oil bunkering. where the state owns the land and yet u hear that some funny, so called rich people, own oil wells or rigs or whatever they call them. where u can stash away 20 billion in a blink of an eye and nobody will be the wiser except your political friends turn to foes or u fall out with some other political thugs who have a string around your neck as they all do on each other (where it depends on who can tighten and has reason to tighten the rope around your neck)

please don't bother yourself exposing us, uk, china bla bla bla. we remain astonishingly worse than them.
Re: How Corruption Works In Countries Like The USA! by spearman(m): 7:37am On May 27, 2010
.
Re: How Corruption Works In Countries Like The USA! by agitator: 8:43am On May 27, 2010
pro01:

. When they are ready to end corruption and bring about good government they know EXACTLY what to do. Pitiable lot; maybe Angel Gabriel will come down from Heaven to 'bell the cat' for them.

That's why we are told to pray and fast everyday for the betterment of our country, and for God to expedite the sending of Angel Gabriel to rescue us.

paddy_lo:

[b]u hit the nail right on the head. . .thats why i cannot stand the likes of ogbulafor,who will form fake companies and award fake contracts to steal from govt

Why not form a real company,use your influence to get real contracts,execute it well
in the process hire Nigerians. . and before u know it your company will grow,u list it on the stock exchange and make more ppl rich

Thats how countries like india,indonesia south korea and so on did it
and thats why i have always liked obasanjos style. .

Under Obasanjo
Refineries were sold to cronies yes,today they would have been producing at full capacity
but it was cancelled by the inept yar a dull

Power companies were to be privatized and sold to cronies yes,now we would have been moving forward
but it was again stalled by the inept yar adull
NIPP same thing,NITEL sale same thing,Transcorp,Same thing
so we move around in circles,while other nations move ahead. .

Also Nigerians cant seem to understand that the more u keep these companies under govt control,the less money Govt will allocate to education,health or security
because they will have to keep spending money on power,NITEL salaries,TAM for refineries every yr with nothing to show. .

so yes our ppl are clueless,The lazy crooks that prefer to steal with no work deceive them and they say alleluyah
[/b]


I will disagree with you on some points
1. the 'yar adull' only reversed it after more than six years of inaction. Licenses were approved for so many refineries and yet not was done, not less than 10 (can't remember the actual number)
2. Most Nigerian will appreciate the companies to be privatized, but antecedents have proved that they end up milking the people without any improvements.  If PHCN is privatized be rest assured that the one and only Agitator will sue them to bankruptcy  cool
3. Nitel bought by Transcorp wasn't functional, in fact it was even going down with all their already existing base stations and infrastructure.  Are you aware that when cable tv license was approved in UK, BT (British Telecom) was not allowed to roll out services for about 5years just to give a head start to the new companies.  Argument was that BT already have the infrastructures on ground (existing telephone cabling all over UK) so it will be unfair to the new companies, who have to start from scratch to lay cables.  BT would charge less to kill of competition which is not healthy as it will end up being a monopoly.
Re: How Corruption Works In Countries Like The USA! by Kobojunkie: 9:47am On May 27, 2010
agitator:

I will disagree with you on some points
1. the 'yar adull' only reversed it after more than six years of inaction. Licenses were approved for so many refineries and yet not was done, not less than 10 (can't remember the actual number)

2. Most Nigerian will appreciate the companies to be privatized, but antecedents have proved that they end up milking the people without any improvements.  If PHCN is privatized be rest assured that the one and only Agitator will sue them to bankruptcy  cool

3. Nitel bought by Transcorp wasn't functional, in fact it was even going down with all their already existing base stations and infrastructure.

grin
Re: How Corruption Works In Countries Like The USA! by Nobody: 10:07am On May 27, 2010
Since it is a known fact that there exists a level of corruption in every country,but in developed countries or countries that are clearly developing we dont read of state governors looting the state coffers with frends and family and walking free, everybody in Nigeria knows justice is selective but does that now mean in the interim daylight robbery should be tolerated.??
Re: How Corruption Works In Countries Like The USA! by oweniwe(m): 10:13am On May 27, 2010
i posted a reply earlieq and didnt find it. just want to thank u all 4 ur educative and point blank posts. i learnt a lot here and i must confess the posts here are far better than the cold garbages our lecturers fart out of their ugly mouths in lecture. that does not include d foul words used by pro01 to castigate ujujoan. posts like dat should not b allowed on the forum
Re: How Corruption Works In Countries Like The USA! by ayo84(m): 10:23am On May 27, 2010
corruption is everywhere,in the us,its so much more sophisticate,and infact it is legalized, they have lobbyist whose primary job is to use monetary means to make congressmen to pass laws that are detrimental to the people of america
Re: How Corruption Works In Countries Like The USA! by paddylo1(m): 1:06pm On May 27, 2010
1. the 'yar adull' only reversed it after more than six years of inaction. Licenses were approved for so many refineries and yet not was done, not less than 10 (can't remember the actual number)

I am talking about the 4 refineries sold to Femi Otedola and Dangote. . .
Now u may dis-agree with the sale,but what has happened since then?

Billions of dollars spent by NNPC,still the refineries are operating below capacity
what this means is corrupt NNPC officials are feeding fat,while that money that could have been used to build schools or hospitals goes to private accounts

If those Refineries had been sold like planned. . then NNPC would not have spent those monies,and another avenue for GOVT officials to steal your money would have been closed
I dont know why this is so hard for Nigerians to understand. . 

PS Multiply it to other areas i raised
Re: How Corruption Works In Countries Like The USA! by agitator: 2:25pm On May 27, 2010
paddy_lo:

[color=#000099][b]I am talking about the 4 refineries sold to Femi Otedola and Dangote. . .
Now u may dis-agree with the sale,but what has happened since then?

The argument was that the refineries were sold far less than real worth.

Personally I'm not for government to run concerns that should be in private hands.

for instance take the GSM operators, since their networks are making money for them, they work around the clock to make sure its up and running. That's how they make their money. Subscribers don't look for a way to repair damaged or faulty base stations as is applicable to NEPA/PHCN.

I have always been an advocate for private ownership of business, but with regulation/control by the government, not only when they want to collect revenues.

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