whatever  your thoughts about hell, but the fact  exist

Jenwitemi:

A different teaching? At the worst, a false teaching. But according to you guys, any teaching that have in it's core the saving of the entire humanity, is from the pit of hell?

That is NOT true - and this is where the likes of Ray Smith are getting it wrong. The saving of the entire humanity is the core of the Gospel - that much we know from Scripture: John 3:16, 2 Pet. 3:9 and 1 Timothy 2:4.

However, the Gospel does not present the claim that Ray Smith and his allies make - that "the whole of humanity" will ultimately be saved even if many persist in sin and are unrepentant. This is why Ray denies Scripture so he could create grounds for his own beliefs that can't be defended. And if you want to take that as "false teaching", what is the problem with other Christians recognizing and not adhering to such 'false teaching'?

Jenwitemi:

I just can't fathom that. A group of humanity clamouring for the eternal burning of their fellow humans. . . absolutely sick! sick to the core!

I think it is rather sick to jump to conclusions on unfounded excuses. The questions we are asking are specific -

1.  what happens to the devil and his angels?

2.  what is the ultimate end of all the ungodly, unregenerate and unrepentant?

3.  what then is the need for anyone at all to repent, since everyone would ultimately be saved after persisting in sin?

those are specific questions to be addressed - and it does not make any sense to just jump to conclusion as if anyone here is "clamouring" for the whole of humanity to be burnt.

Jenwitemi:

You folks are totally messed up, and the tragedy of it all is that you all don't even know it.

In other words, because some of us disagree with your own summaries, we could be written off as sick. Thanks - you can go clean up your acts and check how messed up you are.

viaro:

So, the death of the rich and poor were in their minds, and only to be taken symbolically?

Typical! You have misinterpreted like a true literalist. What i and the parable itself meant was, "in their minds while they are still living!". After one is dead, that is the end of it all, end of the show. Every drama happens here on earth, in this physical existence. Dying is like logging out of existence the way you log out of the internet. The whole drama of existence takes place inside this physical reality. Nothing is taken out of it with the exception of the soul loaded with all the experiences of each individual souls in their physical lifetime.

It is all about data collecting through of our individual experiences, as well as the collective. When we die, as in log out, our souls are amptied and made ready for another round trip of data collecting or experiencing in this universe or in some other universe or dimensions or planes, or whatever. It is an eternal process of data collecting done via many lives. The central archive being what we call, GOD. That is why God is all knowing.

THERE IS NO JUDGEMENT DRAMA AFTER DEATH, FOLKS. THERE IS NO ETERNAL BURNING PLACE AFTER DEATH, EITHER. It is a tragedy for christians, i know, but worse sh.i.t can and does happen. Sheesh!

nuclearboy:

You're not making sense here Bro and God knows there is NO insult in that. None of us wrote the Bible - we're just discussing what it says. Seems you would prefer we all gang up against God and tell Him to go jump cos we want to support ourselves; that so?

What the Word says is sinners go to Hell, whether we like it or not; whether we're messed up or not; whether we plan to burn or not!

How can i make sense to you residing inside such a train of thought? You are way too far gone for me to make any sense to you. Abeg keep your hell to yourself. It is your right to have it.

nuclearboy:

@Jenwitemi:

Sorry but I disagree with you. Death is a state where you know not much (if anything). Would you then state that after you die, (even if metaphorically), your wahala is what has happened to your earthly possessions? For if you say "IN HIS MIND", that supposes his mind is still conscoiuos of the wealth he left behind and what happens/happened to it.

Remember the context was in respect to a "passed away" individual

The parable was meant for the living, and not for the dead. All parables are directed to the living, in this reality, while they are still alive.

Jenwitemi:

Typical! You have misinterpreted like a true literalist.

Lol, that's quite typical of you! I asked a question based on your previous interpretation. The parable of the rich man and Lazarus mentions their deaths clearly enough - and what I wanted to know from you is whether that also was symbolic - yes or no. It has nothing to do with labelling me a literalist, unless you're beginning to be unsure of your own assumptions.

Jenwitemi:

What i and the parable itself meant was,

Speak about what you are interpreting, not what the parable means as if you and the parable have a signed contract of meaning or agreement. The parable certainly did not mean what you assumed, and here's why:

Jenwitemi:
"in their minds while they are still living!". After one is dead, that is the end of it all, end of the show.

Sorry dude, go and read Luke 16:19-31 carefully. Nothing is said about any 'hell' while either the rich man or Lazarus was still living. The mention of "hell" in verse 23 was after their deaths, not while they were still alive. This is why the parable does not mean what you are trying to mean!

Jenwitemi:

Every drama happens here on earth, in this physical existence. Dying is like logging out of existence the way you log out of the internet. The whole drama of existence takes place inside this physical reality. Nothing is taken out of it with the exception of the soul loaded with all the experiences of each individual souls in their physical lifetime.

So, okay - when was "hell" mentioned in the parable: while they were still living or AFTER their deaths?

Jenwitemi:

It is all about data collecting through of our individual experiences, as well as the collective. When we die, as in log out, our souls are amptied and made ready for another round trip of data collecting or experiencing in this universe or in some other universe or dimensions or planes, or whatever. It is an eternal process of data collecting done via many lives. The central archive being what we call, GOD. That is why God is all knowing.

That is just unnecessary detraction from our basic point. Pls attend to my question above ("when was "hell" mentioned in the parable: while they were still living or AFTER their deaths?"

Jenwitemi:
THERE IS NO JUDGEMENT DRAMA AFTER DEATH, FOLKS. THERE IS NO ETERNAL BURNING PLACE AFTER DEATH, EITHER. It is a tragedy for christians, i know, but worse sh.i.t can and does happen. Sheesh!

Sad. If you knew what you were talking about, then your readers could pay you some attention. But seeing you just bend backwards to go through so much emotion to confuse issues for yourself, no one can take you seriously.

viaro:

@ttalks,

The article is faulty. It takes too many things for granted and excuses very important issues under the guise of what the author assumes falls under 'symbolic' language. That is an escape hatch that is not even half-clever, especially because Ray Smith is known to be too busy condemning others rather than delving into the Word for whetever he wants to say on any subject.

Okay, let's assume for his (and your) sake that hell is a hoax. The implication is that the whole world would be saved - which was what you wanted to lead us to believe. Good for you, but is that indeed what Scripture teaches? If you feel so, then please think carefully on these:

1.  what happens to the devil and his angels?

2.  what is the ultimate end of all the ungodly, unregenerate and unrepentant?

3.  what then is the need for anyone at all to repent, since everyone would ultimately be saved after persisting in sin?

I would not like to assuage the thread, so let's take these few questions initially - more as we progress.

Question 1. The simple fact that they end up in the Lake of Fire.
But the question that ought to be asked is : what is this Lake of fire?

Question 2. They will learn righteousness and be saved.

Isaiah 26:9
(9)  With my soul have I desired thee in the night; yea, with my spirit within me will I seek thee early: for when thy judgments are in the earth, the inhabitants of the world will learn righteousness.

Question 3. To escape the second death/Lake of fire experience at the time of judgement; to escape the painful experience of being purged and refined to
get rid of anything sin or unrighteousness. That's what this whole hell/second death/lake of fire thing is; a period or age of going through God's refining to be purged of all wrong and element of sin. It is not the fabrication of endless torture and torment forever.

As regards the parable of the rich man and Lazarus, the point I'm trying to pull out with that is the fact that this "hell" which is being debated;
whether it's a geographical location or a state which some people would go through, nobody is there or going through it right now; not even the
rich man.

Luk 16:19-24
(19) There was a certain rich man who [habitually] clothed himself in purple and fine linen and reveled and feasted and made merry in splendor every day.
(20) And at his gate there was [carelessly] dropped down and left a certain utterly destitute man named Lazarus, [reduced to begging alms and] covered with [ulcerated] sores.
(21) He [eagerly] desired to be satisfied with what fell from the rich man's table; moreover, the dogs even came and licked his sores.
(22) And it occurred that the man [reduced to] begging died and was carried by the angels to Abraham's bosom. The rich man also died and was buried.
(23) And in Hades (the realm of the dead), being in torment, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham far away, and Lazarus in his bosom.
(24) And he cried out and said, Father Abraham, have pity and mercy on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, for I am in anguish in this flame.

This definitely is a parable as the bible let's us know. It was pointing to some message rather than a lie that people are in "hell" right now or are going through
"hell"

G3850
παραβολή
parabolē
par-ab-ol-ay'
From G3846; a similitude (“parable”), that is, (symbolically) fictitious narrative (of common life conveying a moral), apoth gm or adage: - comparison, figure, parable, proverb.

A parable is a work of fiction with the aim of conveying a moral. The parable was not in anyway suggesting that the rich man was in "hell fire" or going through "hell".

Besides, the passage above told us that it was in Hades(the place or state of departed souls[righteous/unrighteous]) that the rich man was in.

Thank you, ttalks. I like your outline - succinct and straight to the point.

ttalks:

Question 1. The simple fact that they end up in the Lake of Fire.
But the question that ought to be asked is : what is this Lake of fire?

Glad to read this. But then, first thing is this: if they end up in the lake of fire, that is acknowledging that such a reality exists, no? Second, if that reality does not exist, why then acknowledge that anyone is going to end up there?

See why we have these concerns? However, what do you make out to be the Lake of Fire?

ttalks:

Question 2. They will learn righteousness and be saved.

Isaiah 26:9
(9)  With my soul have I desired thee in the night; yea, with my spirit within me will I seek thee early: for when thy judgments are in the earth, the inhabitants of the world will learn righteousness.

Nice - but sad inference. Verse 10 (the very next verse after Isaiah 26:9) says of the wicked (emphasis added):

         Let favour be shewed to the wicked, yet will he NOT LEARN righteousness:
         in the land of uprightness WILL he DEAL UNJUSTLY,
         and WILL NOT behold the majesty of the LORD.

At what point is the wicked going to be saved if he WILL NOT learn righteousness, sir?

ttalks:

Question 3. To escape the second death/Lake of fire experience at the time of judgement; to escape the painful experience of being purged and refined to
get rid of anything sin or unrighteousness. That's what this whole hell/second death/lake of fire thing is; a period or age of going through God's refining to be purged of all wrong and element of sin. It is not the fabrication of endless torture and torment forever.

No sir - Revelation that mentions the Lake of fire and second death does not show us anything about your conclusion - unless you have pointers in specific verses that say so. The second death is NOWHERE said to be a purging of wrong elements of sin - care to show us where it is otherwise taught so in Revelation?

Lazarus and the Rich Man

"And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried" (Luke 16:22).

Many scholars believe that the episode reported in Luke 16:19-31 actually happened; that it is a true story.  If it is a parable, it is not identified as such, and it is the only one in which the name of a participant is given.  Christ related the story as if it were true.  But whether history or parable, we can learn much from the contrast between these two dramatically different men, their deaths and destinies.

The rich man, of course, surrounded himself with luxury (v.19) while Lazarus struggled each day just to survive until the next poverty-filled and pain-wracked day (vv.20-21).

No one can escape the grave, however, and in the passage of time, both died.  But, rather than reducing those two different individuals to the commonality of death, their differences actually are heightened.  The rich man, "being in torments" (v.23), was aware of the comfort of Lazarus in "Abraham's bosom" (v.22).  The interchange between the rich man and Abraham, and the timeless instruction Christ gave, are well known.

Note also the contrast between  and "buried" in our text.  The beggar's body was no doubt unceremoniously dumped into a pauper's grave, while the rich man's corpse was placed in a costly sepulcher, and his funeral attended by many friends and mourners.  But look beyond the earthly spectrum.  While the rich man begs for mercy and relief from torment, the poor man's eternal spirit is "carried" (literally, "carried off" or "borne away" by a convoy of angelic beings into the presence of God, where "now he is comforted" (v.25).  For Lazarus, and indeed for all who die in the Lord, "Death is swallowed up in victory" (I Corinthians 15:54). JDM

This may come as a surprise but I have to be honest in saying that I too have toyed/flirted with "universalism" for some time ---- but I am not yet convinced of it fully because of certain passages in the Bible. There is some, but not by any means, conclusive (at least yet for me) support in the Bible for the idea that not only all mankind but indeed the whole of creation will be saved.

Rationally (i.e. extra-biblically), I think this position accords far more with the view of God as an all loving omnipotent God who always knew what He wanted to do.

At this moment, however, I cannot honestly argue "universalism" with absolute certainty or conviction.

viaro:

Thank you, ttalks. I like your outline - succinct and straight to the point.

Glad to read this. But then, first thing is this: if they end up in the lake of fire, that is acknowledging that such a reality exists, no? Second, if that reality does not exist, why then acknowledge that anyone is going to end up there?

See why we have these concerns? However, what do you make out to be the Lake of Fire?

I didn't say the reality does not exist.rather I meant that the perception about it is wrong;hence the title:"Hell is a Christian Hoax".
Maybe it should have read: "The Christian perception of hell is wrong".

Nice - but sad inference. Verse 10 (the very next verse after Isaiah 26:9) says of the wicked (emphasis added):

Let favour be shewed to the wicked, yet will he NOT LEARN righteousness:
in the land of uprightness WILL he DEAL UNJUSTLY,
and WILL NOT behold the majesty of the LORD.

At what point is the wicked going to be saved if he WILL NOT learn righteousness, sir?

Verse 9 talks about judgement bringing righteousness.
verse 10 talks about favour; . . two diferent things.

No sir - Revelation that mentions the Lake of fire and second death does not show us anything about your conclusion - unless you have pointers in specific verses that say so. The second death is NOWHERE said to be a purging of wrong elements of sin - care to show us where it is otherwise taught so in Revelation?

I will have to get back to you on this.I have been swamped with
a whole load of work at the moment and will not be able to continue today.
I will have to continue tomorrow(my personal internet is down at the moment; I'm currently using
the one at work).

But let the discussion go on even without my inputs; I'll join tomorrow.

Hmmm I just don't get it when some Christians go about preaching that hell is not a place of eternal torment. The bible very clearly says it is.

There is no need trying to turn or twist a bizarre and ridiculous doctrine by giving it a meaning of its own just because it doesn't sit well with you. . . . .I have noticed that most christians in the west are now trying to change what the bible says about hell because the doctrine does not look tenable to them, so like everything else with christianity they change it and say it means something else form what the bible says.

ttalks:

I didn't say the reality does not exist.rather I meant that the perception about it is wrong;hence the title:"Hell is a Christian Hoax".
Maybe it should have read: "The Christian perception of hell is wrong".

Fair enough. The one thing that seems to be inferred in Ray Smith's argument generally is that hell does not exist - or, that such a reality does not exist. That it may exist but the perception is wrong are two different things.

ttalks:

Verse 9 talks about judgement bringing righteousness.
verse 10 talks about favour; . . two diferent things.

So again: at what point does the wicked learn righteousness since verse 10 says he WILL NOT LEARN righteousness even if favour was showed? The initial question was about such a person persisting in his wickedness ('the ultimate end of all the ungodly, unregenerate and unrepentant') - and if the wicked will not learn righteousness even if favour was shown, what then?

ttalks:

I will have to get back to you on this.I have been swamped with
a whole load of work at the moment and will not be able to continue today.
I will have to continue tomorrow(my personal internet is down at the moment; I'm currently using
the one at work).

Okay, no rush. I'll wait. . . and thanks for providing answers to my queries.

FMK:

whatever  your thoughts about hell, but the fact  exist  

The existence of hell seems to mean far more to christians than satanists. Christians will expend vastly more energy to prove the existence of hell than satanists would. How can this strange obsession with eternal torture of fellow humans be explained? That is a topic that merits it's own separate thread. Strange, very strange. And the tragedy of it all is that hell does not make the christian religion any more appealing, but quite on the contrary.

Jenwitemi:

The existence of hell seems to mean far more to christians than satanists. Christians will expend vastly more energy to prove the existence of hell than satanists would. How can this strange obsession with eternal torture of fellow humans be explained? That is a topic that merits it's own separate thread. Strange, very strange. And the tragedy of it all is that hell does not make the christian religion any more appealing, but quite on the contrary.

When TV adverts show the effects of alcohol and smoking on lungs or how babies are aborted only shocks people into reality.  It wakes people up to reality but a lot of folks have no problem with such shock tactics but will begin to cry foul when Christian warns them of the eternal Judgment to come.

Jenwitemi:

The existence of hell seems to mean far more to christians than satanists. Christians will expend vastly more energy to prove the existence of hell than satanists would.

I'm sure you're quite aware that satanists (ala Anton LaVey's satanism) glory in hell - whether they try to 'prove' anything about the existence of a 'hell' they speak about is not so much as energetic as the fact that they find it attractive at some level.

Jenwitemi:
How can this strange obsession with eternal torture of fellow humans be explained? That is a topic that merits it's own separate thread. Strange, very strange.

The stranger thing yet is that you don't seem to understand where to aim your piffling at. Strange? Obsession? Perhaps you need once again to look more closely at satanism and see the strange obsession it has with 'hell', viz:

[list][li]what does Anton LaVey's Satanic Bible mean by "The flames of
Hell burn fierce . . . and purify!"?[/li][/list]

[list][li]LaVey's Satanic Bible proclaims that "There is no heaven of glory bright, and no hell where sinners roast. Here and now is our day of torment! Here and now is our day of joy!" Although he denies any "hell" for sinners, he infact asserts that there's indeed "torment" - here and now. That sounds attractive to you, yes?[/li][/list]

[list][li]In the "THE THIRTEEN STEPS - Devices Used in a Satanic Ritual" of LaVey's Satanic Bible, you will find recommendations for satanic ritual, among which is this:
"7. Turning counter-clockwise, the priest points with the sword to each cardinal point of
the compass and calls forth the respective Princes of Hell: Satan from the south, Lucifer from the east, Belial from the north, and Leviathan from the west."[/li][/list]

No, you may argue anything for satanism's "strange" case of obssession on 'hell', blah-blah. . . but I guess you find this ritual quite appealing for your own concerns, yes?

Jenwitemi:

And the tragedy of it all is that hell does not make the christian religion any more appealing, but quite on the contrary.

Then your satanism would be appealing - your calling forth the 'Prince of Hell' is more appealing - your satanism of "no redeemer" sounds quite appealing - and your utter confusion about what you don't know really deserves an award! There's no need going into the point that those who come to Christ as their Redeemer know why they would rather find a Redeemer than one who denies any redeemer and still asks you to make yourself your own redeemer.

^^^ It is quite understandable that satanists should have affinity for hell, afterall it is supposed to be the abode of their lord, but what is the logical reason for christians' obsession? No matter how obsessed satanist are with hell, their obsession cannot match that of christians. Without the doctrine of hell, christianity is nothing in the eyes of christians. Satanists and christians sharing the same affinity for the dark place of burning fire. Bizarre!


Are christians mainstream satanists?

Even though I won't be making any finte submission becos I truely don't know, I have learnt enough to know that the concept of hell presented to us is very faulty and mostly derived from poorly translated text. That aside a person is only a true christian becos he has renewed his soul (born again) and he seeks genuine love for God and his fellow human beings. If a person adheres to the christian religion becos he believes it is an escape route from eternal damnation and he does not have the christian fruit of genuine love for others, the person is only wasting his/her time and is not really a genuine christian. Christianity is based on genuine love and not inspired by fear. Unfortunately the church is to blame for all this poisonous teachings distorting eternal truths.

What is the christian doctrine without the concept of hell? It is absolutely meaningless, hence hell is the life force of the christian doctrine. Without the concept of hell, the doctrine falls apart. No wonder christians keep on visiting their most fav tourism sport. Christians would lose faith in their religion if hell was excluded from their doctrine. Bizarre!


Are christians mainstream satanists?

Is the christian religion satanism in disguise? That is the big question here. Judging how big the population of the religion is, it is quite possible that the devil has pulled a fast one on this poor folks. When you find yourself vehemently defending the existence of a place of damnation like hell, then it is time to start taking a very critical look at yourself and what you believe in.





Are christians mainstream satanists?

Are christians devilworshipers in disguise? Is christianity a religion of devilworshiping? Have over 2 billion of them been deceived by the sneeky devil? Remember the gate of hell is veeeery wide! Wide enough to take in 2 billion christians, i guess.





Are christians the mainstream devilworshipers?

@Kunle:

While you freely admit that you don't know, yet you know that some have missed it. Your posts on this forum also show condemnation for the mis-interpreters of God's Word (especially concerning tithes ). Would you then find it logical that scammer/scammed and truly righteous end up together?

I think ttalks has concluded the issue by admitting that the Lake of fire exists. Its purpose, duration and tenants are the issue ought to be discussed here.

@jenwitemi:

You seem to have misconstrued me as insulting you. I wasn't. What I meant was simply that it is written there (not metaphorically) as a final resting place for some (say, satan, at least). That makes it literal and REAL. So saying it is not real seems "unreal" for want of another word. And the afterlife is not the only reason for Christianity - many find the life "on this side" very fulfilling!

nuclearboy:

@jenwitemi:

You seem to have misconstrued me as insulting you. I wasn't. What I meant was simply that it is written there (not metaphorically) as a final resting place for some (say, satan, at least). That makes it literal and REAL. So saying it is not real seems "unreal" for want of another word. And the afterlife is not the only reason for Christianity - many find the life "on this side" very fulfilling!

Would you know that there is no "you" or "me" or billions of other souls on the other side? None. Not a single one with the exception of only "one being", and that being is what we all refer to as GOD. God is the only being in existence "on the other side". That is why IT (God) is the alpha and omega, translated to "ALONE".
What "we" are are just temporal expressions of the same God, having billions of diverse experiences all to serve the one same being. When we die, we merely blend back into the one single being in existence, and that is that. That there are billions of souls after death, on the other side waiting to be judged, is a lie from the pit of hell.
There will be no me, no you, no noetic, no mazaye, no olaadegbu, no viaro, no kunleoshob, nobody on the other side but the one single being called God because we're all just temporal expressions of that one single being having temporal experiences here in this physical existence. It is an eternal cycle of manifestations and blendings back into the only entity in existence, GOD.

@nuclearboy
It is my belief that what would happen in the afterlife is beyond human comprhesion, that aside I have always maintained that bible writers wrote the bible the way they understood it and some of the things God revealed to them they couldn't comprehend or have have the vocabulary to put it down accurately hence the parables and coded prophecies. As I stated earlier I can't with certainity say I know the truth as per the reality and nature of hell but I know enough to know that there a lot of loop holes and inconsistencies in the church definition of hell.

What a lot of people here do not know is that proclamations of the existence of hell as a belief, is a form of mind virus that are used to hack the collective mind of mankind, or atleast a large chunk of it. We need to understand that there is a deeply held secret that the consciousness of sentients like us creates our physical reality as we go.

What we strongly believe in can be made to manifest here on earth if we hold on tightly to that belief(be careful what you wish for). Now a certain group of people can use the deeply held beliefs of many unsuspecting folks to create a certain desired reality for themselves, by simply planting the belief of the existence of something/anything in their minds and that something will manifest in the physical world due to that belief. This ancient technology is called in the modern times, "mind hacking". It is done at all levels, most especially by advertising firms on their targeted consumers.

If some people want to create a pit of hell to throw in a massive number of people for the sake of population culling, all they have to do is hack the collective minds of mankind by planting a belief of the existence of a fictitious place like hell, and such a place can manifest in this physical reality to be used by nefarious few to oppress humanity. This is what i think is going on right now with this hell business. Our collective mind is being hacked into to manifest a place like hell for oppressing us in the future and culling of world population. THERE IS NO PLACE LIKE HELL ON THE OTHER SIDE! Stop believing this dangerous mind virus if you don't want to experience such a place in your lifetime.

Remember one thing, the more you hold on very strongly to a belief, the more you affect the physical reality in which you live. If you keep on believing in a place like hell, you will cause the manifestation of such a place around yourself for only you to experience. That is how reality works. Now if the same thing is done on a massive scale by a very large number of people, like 2 billion christians believing in hell, what they are being made to do, without them knowing, is helping create such a place of damnation(undergroud dungeons for rebels against the ruling elite) for themselves and the rest of mankind.

This is esoteric truth that everyone must know. It has absolutely nothing to do with who loves God and who does not. Who was a born again and who was not. Who accepted jesus and who did not. If you firmly believe in a place of damnation, then you are helping to bring such a place into manifestation and thereby condemning yourself and the entire humanity.

So stop believing in the existence of such a dark place and get it out of your mind. Stop opening your mind up for hacking, because our minds can be hacked just like a computer can be hacked. Think of things of light, paradise, peace, love, tranquility for all mankind and hold that belief firmly in your mind. That is how to make a better world. That was what jesus wanted you to do.

KunleOshob:

Even though I won't be making any finte submission becos I truely don't know, I have learnt enough to know that the concept of hell presented to us is very faulty and mostly derived from poorly translated text. That aside a person is only a true christian becos he has renewed his soul (born again) and he seeks genuine love for God and his fellow human beings. If a person adheres to the christian religion becos he believes it is an escape route from eternal damnation and he does not have the christian fruit of genuine love for others, the person is only wasting his/her time and is not really a genuine christian. Christianity is based on genuine love and not inspired by fear. Unfortunately the church is to blame for all this poisonous teachings distorting eternal truths.

This is one of the saddest reality of this age . . .men who dismiss their lack of knowledge for convenience.

1. You claim to be a Christian with a personal relationship with God. Every relationship is defined by communication, implying that you and God have an appropriate means of communicating.

2. The scriptures (God's revealed word) affirm that there is eternal damnation called hell fire.

3. You do not subscribe to this teaching for perceived translation errors

4. what stops you from asking God for a personal message of revelation of hell fire? what are u afraid of, since u claim to be a Christian full of "genuine love"?

Jenwitemi:

^^^ It is quite understandable that satanists should have affinity for hell, afterall it is supposed to be the abode of their lord, but what is the logical reason for christians' obsession? No matter how obsessed satanist are with hell, their obsession cannot match that of christians. Without the doctrine of hell, christianity is nothing in the eyes of christians. Satanists and christians sharing the same affinity for the dark place of burning fire. Bizarre!

Christians are not obsessed with hell - and to make that cheap interpolation is quite laughable. It shows you're a desperate fellow seeking to confuse issues all the more so that you won't have to face up to the fact that you're throwing words carelessly around. Satanists (as far as I know) do not share hell as an affinity with Christians - that Christians (or any other theist) talks about hell does not mean they 'share' an affinity with satanists for dark places. Your conclusions are more than bizzarre indeed.

Jenwitemi:

What we strongly believe in can be made to manifest here on earth if we hold on tightly to that belief. Now a certain group of people can use the deeply held beliefs of many unsuspecting folks to create a certain desired reality for themselves, by simply planting the belief of the existence of something/anything in their minds and that something will manifest in the physical world due to that belief. This ancient technology is called in the modern times, "mind hacking". It is done at all levels, most especially by advertising firms on their targeted consumers.

Since you admit that mind hacking occurs at all levels, it is easy to see you have been busy trying to market your own belief at your perceived targeted consumers. The problem is that your virus is a most serious one indeed, especially because you tend to confuse what you perceive as your own interpretation of the subject (e.g., the interpretation you gave about hell being symbolic in the case of the rich man while he was still living, no?).

@noetic
Na you know, Mr know all I have stated my own position.

viaro:

Since you admit that mind hacking occurs at all levels, it is easy to see you have been busy trying to market your own belief at your perceived targeted consumers. The problem is that your virus is a most serious one indeed, especially because you tend to confuse what you perceive as your own interpretation of the subject (e.g., the interpretation you gave about hell being symbolic in the case of the rich man while he was still living, no?).

You say i am trying to hack your mind by telling you to be positive in what you hold in your mind? Well, maybe i am, but what is wrong with that? Which one is more fruitful? Holding positive thoughts in your mind or holding negative ones?

Jenwitemi:

You say i am trying to hack your mind by telling you to be positive in what you hold in your mind? Well, maybe i am, but what is wrong with that?

Sorry dude - it's not my mind you can hack, try ever so much as you are able to. The one thing you're missing here is that your attempts are far too weak, especially because your arguments are flying in the face of what we read in Scripture. If you make sense and not confuse issues for yourself, who would be speaking of mind hacking at all?

Jenwitemi:

Which one is more fruitful? Holding positive thoughts in your mind or holding negative ones?

I don't see how your own hacking is positive, so don't try clapping for yourself. What would be positive is not mixing up issues and passing very cheap arguments as you do around - that is not fruitful at all.