That Diploma holders are having a tough time out there is no news. I want nairalanders to help tell us what's the probs with HND. Why the disparity even when a lot of lecturers claim they are at par.

Let the replies flow.

For a start BSc BEng are all honours degree, which, means someone, should honour you.  Coming from academic attainment HND students do not undergo a final year project or thesis in their area of study in the UK.  No placement program because they have not learnt sufficient skill to go for placement.  All their first year units are beginner guide to their course.  Second year when they are suppose to start learning stuff the course ends with a HND cert. I can tell you even in London most of HND students are lost. No skill, no solid background to any topic. 

HND/HNC is just a preparation for Bachelors Honours degree.  Like in the United Kingdom not that we have to follow what they do but as a reference to how they conduct their academic disposition.

If you did not get the required A-Levels for you chosen university and course, mostly 2-3 A-Level is sufficient to do any honours degree in the UK depending on the subject and course.  If you are an adult student with sufficient work history for a chosen course you are normally given a BSc B.Eng honour degree after a compulsory test.  Depend on the result outcome you could be offered a place on BSc, B.Eng, HND, HNC.

I remembered when I cam to UK I left ABU Zaria after completing year one.  I was on holidays actually and decide to stay, my dad was furious until I promised him I will continue with my education in the UK.  Anyway I meet a girl from ABU Zaria she came to study but either one of us had A-Level.  We were told to go to college and do A-Level or access course for two years but either of us is willing to do that.

To cut the story short, we physically when to see the Course Director of SCISM (School of Information System and Mathematics) and persuaded him to give us a chance with our Nigerian qualification, eventually out of luck he agreed but we will need to sit for a 2 hours test on Mathematics and Communication literature.  Anyway I passed both scoring above 60% but the girl did very badly at her mathematics and score very high marks on her communication literature scoring above 70%.  She was offered HND Computer Studies and I was offered a BSc Computer Science.  We both graduated the same year as I got a year out to work for Goldman Sachs as a placement year.  In Nigeria we call it NYSC.

Finally in here HND student only need 18 months to become BSc I don't know how this is arranged in Nigeria.  Making a total of 31/2 year compare to 3 years of BSc and 4 if you did placement year.
Conclusion, there is a fine difference between HND and Bachelors degree and should not be compared at all.  HND has is on value and place in the society  like vocational certificates and professional certs.

ohhh i get ur point...HND AND BSC r totally different. HND is like community colleges here dat gets diploma and BSC getz a degree and da length of study is alwayz higher..colleges here spend 2-3 yrs studying(more practical) and university students spend 4-5 yrs depending and ofcourse most cases u do a thesis or an internship(IT)...like in high skool, if u wanna go into uni., 4rom grade 9, u have 2 start taking wat we call ADVANCE OR UNIVERSITY courses but if u wanna go 2 college, u take college courses...until da year 2003 in Ontario Canada(which happened 2 be ma set), u have 2 go an extra one year after ur grade 12(SS3)(we call it OAC as per A-LEVELS) if you want to be go to university but ppl dat wanna go 2 college just stop in grade 12 and go but now everyone stops at grade 12 with specifications like: COLLEGE CANDIDATES(COLLEGE COURSES-KNOWN AS M COURSES) and UNIVERSITY CANDIDATES (UNIVERSITY COURSES KNOWN AS U COURSES). Canada's education is by age so when they have da OAC, da ppl dat wanna go 2 uni. were being cheated cuz we tend 2 enter at 19 unlike college ppl who enters at 18 but know with the removal of da OAC, everyone enters at 18... .oh and ppl taking college courses and ppl taking university courses uses different textbooks even though they r in da same grade so university courses r more advanced and intensed dan dat of college.

when da ppl dat went to college finish their program, they can transfer straight 2 university with their credits and can start either 4rom 2nd or 3rd year depending how well da person did or in most cases, some ppl don't even finish in college and transfer..here, some ppl go 2 college cuz they feel itz easier(which it is in most cases) and also 2 get off skool so fast.

As far as I'm concerned on this matter, it's only those folks who had passed through the Polytechnic system of education and then the University that can speak on this matter.

I have a friend who passed through both systems of education in flying colours - OND, Distinction, HND, Distinction and B.Eng, First Class Honours. I will email him and hear his view. All other views are useless, except they tow the line stated above.

Chikena.

Nigerian HND is a Five years serious academic work with praticals. 2years of ND with project reprt submited - 1year Practicals ( Placement) then 2years HND (with thesis )not the same as uk BTEC HND.  I have ND, HND and Msc in Engineering ++== so the HND problem in nigerian is Over.

President Olusegun Obasanjo yesterday approved a new policy which reversed the existing policy that restricts holders of the Higher National Diploma (HND) from rising above Level 14 in the civil service.


The new policy brings to an end the bitter dichotomy that has pitched HND graduates against their more favoured graduates from the universities and made the HND subjects of discriminations in promotion and job prospects.


President Obasanjo, at a meeting with members of the House of Representatives Committeee on Education and Minister of Education, Mrs. Chinwe Obaji, directed his Chief of Staff (Maj Gen Mohammed Abdullahi) and Head of Service (Alhaji Yayale Ahmed) to immediately prepare a position paper reflecting the new position so that the Executive can put it into effect.


Chairman of the House Committee, Alhaji Ahmad Lawan later told journalists after the meeting that Obasanjo accepted to end the discrimination of HND holders because he was convinced that they could also be more useful to the nation without the Level 14 restriction placed on them.


According to him, "so many HND holders have contributed or are contributing very meaningfully to the development of Nigeria but the discrimination that is put on them that if you reach Level 14, you cannot go any further than that, places some kind of disadvantage not only the holders but on the country as well. Because these people ordinarily should have much more contributed to our development and we feel that the federal government should review this policy and the President accepted. In fact, he said that a position will be presented and he asked the Chief of Staff to look into that issue and to handle the documents that are needed in conjunction with the Head of Service."

Now, that should put an end to all the hullabaloo on HND and degree people in Nigeria, at least.

Furher more no DIPLOMA run in the University is valid for any job in Nigeria. All Diplomas are for the Polytechnic. University of London use diploma instead of degree as a matter of pride.
What else.

Some in " TORONTO" university that can not be called university .
Some degrees from other lands are not acceptable in Nigeria.

NIGERIAN HND HOLDERS TODAY

Nigerian firms demand skilled workers, Nigeria needs skilled manual workers as never before. Some young Nigerians refuse to become bricklayers, Fiona Ledger a BBC reporter in Lagos saw it all, he knew that Communications, electricity and power are crying out for upgrading and better maintenance.
But the idea of a vocational education is looked down upon by many young people just because of discriminations against these group of professionals which was dedicated to putting young Nigerians through vocational courses and preparing them for jobs in the office and on the building site. Today polytechnic and Technical graduates feel discriminated against, the Higher National Diploma (HND), will not be enough if they are to compete effectively in the market place for jobs.

The polytechnic created was a Middle-level disaster no wonder parent do not want their children in there "Parents will come and tell you they just want their children to be there for one year because they missed university admission for that year and don't want their children sitting around at home." Says a Rector of a Polytechnic.

In the public service despite all efforts to ensure pay parity and equal recognition to HND and B.sc graduates, the situation still remains the same.
For instance HND holders are employed on GL 07 (except HND in Engineering with the entry point of 08) the limit to an HND accountancy holder in the bursary or accounts department of an organization is level 13. Whereas a University degree can rise far above that, the Grade Level bar placed on the HND holders who are Civil Servants needs urgent attention.
The division of labour was not to make one cadre superior to the other but discrimination in labor market continues, can this be justified?
It is bad.
Many holders of HND today took Joint Admissions and Matriculations Board (JAMB) exams. Some in fact have eight credits at a single sitting but resorted to the Polytechnic for known reasons, besides each HND program is a five years program at the polytechnic against the 4 years of the University which is now preferred and promoted above level 14 bar placed on the HND.
The bar was removed on papers only yesterday by Chief Obasanjo.

Salary-wise, they are now equal:




http://odili.net/news/source/2006/jan/6/610.html

Hotstepper:

ohhh i get your point...HND AND BSC r totally different. HND  is like community colleges here that  gets diploma and BSC getz a degree and da length of study is alwayz higher..colleges here spend 2-3 years studying(more practical) and university students spend 4-5 years depending and ofcourse most cases u do a thesis or an internship(IT)...like in high skool, if u want to go into uni., 4rom grade 9, u have 2 start taking what we call ADVANCE OR UNIVERSITY courses but if u want to go 2 college, u take college courses...until da year 2003 in Ontario Canada(which happened 2 be ma set), u have 2 go an extra one year after your grade 12(SS3)(we call it OAC as per A-LEVELS) if you want to be go to university but people that want to go 2 college just stop in grade 12 and go but now everyone stops at grade 12 with specifications like: COLLEGE CANDIDATES(COLLEGE COURSES-KNOWN AS M COURSES) and UNIVERSITY CANDIDATES (UNIVERSITY COURSES KNOWN AS U COURSES). Canada's education is by age so when they have da OAC, da people that want to go 2 uni. were being cheated because we tend 2 enter at 19 unlike college people who enters at 18 but know with the removal of da OAC, everyone enters at 18... .oh and people taking college courses and people taking university courses uses different textbooks even though they r in da same grade so university courses r more advanced and intensed dan that of college.

when da people that went to college finish their program, they can transfer straight 2 university with their credits and can start either 4rom 2nd or 3rd year depending how well da person did or in most cases, some people don't even finish in college and transfer..here, some people go 2 college because they feel itz easier(which it is in most cases) and also 2 get off skool so fast.

@hotstepper i just wanted to ask u if u r in canada,if u r do they accept british a-levels if u want to go directly into uni there for medicine cos i have a friend who's thinking abt transferring to canada after her a-levels for uni...wud be grateful if u hit me back as soon as possible..thanks!

rasheedah, ur friend cannot enter 2 read medicine in any skool in Canada cuz A-LEVEL is wat we used 2 call OAC/GRADE 13 which i personally did and itz high skool. if u want 2 do medicine here, u must have done an undergrad. course and den write med. skool exam, den if u pass, u den go 2 med. skool just as law also(u do an undergrd. den write LASAT which is law exam and den go 2 law skool if u pass)...da same goes in america as well cuz we have da same system..i will assume dat britain and nigeria gat da same system where by they enter immediately..happy new year

Some in " TORONTO" university that can not be called university .
Some degrees from other lands are not acceptable in Nigeria.

wat do u mean by dat @HND-HOLDER

thanks hotstepper 4 clearing that up..i'm going to tell her not to go anywhere cause according to law a medical degree is a medical degree irrespective of where you get it ..uk.the states or canada...and a happy new year to you too...!

Hotstepper:

Some in " TORONTO" university that can not be called university .
Some degrees from other lands are not acceptable in Nigeria.

what do u mean by that @HND-HOLDER

If you are a Nigerian you should know what " toronto" university means.

Degrees in Engineering from East Bloc translated as B.Sc in Engineering.
B. Tech in Engineering from some accredited American Universities as contained in ABET List. are below Nigerian degrees

I know most of those Bsc guys dont know this!!. HND is gradually fading out or has been made to be inferior to university degrees around the world, especially in the UK. This is because u now spend just 2 years to get HND in UK and 3 years to get a Bsc. But in nigeria HND is equivalent or even more than a BSc because u spend 5 years (4 academic years and 1 year industrial training) before u graduate with HND. Take a look at the course curriculum for HND programs u will find out that the credit hours is equal or greater than that of so many degree programs in nigeria. I think we should be talking of credit load now and not Bsc /HND or university/polytechnic. In the UK and america most HND courses are 2 years programs while degree courses are 3 years, that is why holders of HND there go into the 2nd or 3rd year of a degree program before going to do a postgraduate course. But here in Nigeria the difference is obvious, HND is a 5 years program while most degree programs are less than 5 years. The credit load is what we should be talking about now, and not just the HND or Bsc. I was able to get admission into a postgraduate school in one of the UK universities with my HND certificate. I was asked to send my transcript which i did. they went through it and discovered that i had done more than they expected,my credit load was equivalent to that of a Bsc program so i was given the course. Those who hold Bsc should not look down at those with HND, i bet you, if you meet or work with some people with HND you will see the technical skills in them. Finally if HND is inferior to BSc the number of years spent to acquire it should be reduced from 5 years to 2 or 3 years in nigeria, else HND is equivalent or greater than a BSC in nigeria. Be aware!!!

I have HND in statistics and have been opportuned to discuss with guys that hold BSc in statistics or mathematics and computer science. I discovered that there were so many courses and their applications that they did not do in school (university). I made fun of them during my NYSC orientation in Lagos. I told many of them to go back to school and complete the course. I called them unqualified and incompetent statisticians and mathematicians. Yes! some of them did not use computers in their Bsc maths, stats and computer courses, yet they claim they are mathematicians,statisticians and computer scientists. Tell me any where in the world where u get a Bsc in mathematics or statistics or comp science without good computing knowledge and skills? It is only in Nigerian universities. The polytechnics are trying in nigeria. They give u full computer practicals in computer science and statistics(ND/HND). That is why i,m able to work as a system administrator in one of the biggest companies in the country, but i hold HND in statistics. Most of my guys with Bsc in mathematics/statistics or computer science always have one excuse or the other to give; some will say we dont have computers in my school or the Lecturer did not teach us. Check the course curriculum for ND/HND to see for yourself, u will see how these courses are structured. U can get one from NBTE kaduna if u wish. Dont compare HND graduates in nigeria with those in UK or US who spent just 2 years to get HND. There is a clear distinction. U can also go online to see the course curriculum for HND programs in UK and US, it is very different from ours in Nigeria. Thank you and be aware!!

Hotstepper, what is the issue again? Do u have HND or Bsc let me know now oo!!

Hotstepper, answer my question oo, what do u mean by HND and Bsc are not the same? is it that HND is higher than Bsc or Bsc is higher than HND. Pls note that HND in nigeria is different from HND in UK or in scotland. HND is a 5 year program in nigeria while many degree programs are less than 5 years. But in uk HND is 2 years while Bsc is 3 years.we are talking about HND and BSc in nigeria now, tell us what the difference is in terms of the course work and quality of knowledge and skills acquired and not the name of the degree acquired.

NABTEB lauds FG over BSc, HND parity
Ben-Ose Ogbemudia
The National Business and Technical Examinations Board (NABTEB) has lauded the Federal Government for taking a decisive step to remove the disparity between the Bachelor of Science (B.Sc) degree and the Higher National Diploma (HND) awarded by universities and polytechnics respectively.

NABTEB, in a release issued by its Chief Executive, Prof. David Awanbor, described the Federal Government's resolve to give priority attention to technology education as a major breakthrough in the nation's quest for sustainable technological development.

Prof. Awanbor, current Executive Secretary of the Association for Educational Assessment in Africa (AEM), lamented that the age-old quest for technological advancement suffered a major set back occasioned by the discrimination against holders of HND in the public service and the consequent disdain for technical/vocational education by the unwary citizenry.

Prof. Awanbor also commended the present administration and the Federal Ministry of Education for encouraging universities, polytechnics and colleges of education to accept the National Technical Certificate (NTC) and the National Business Certificate (NBC) awarded by NABTEB for admission purposes.

It would be recalled that the able leadership of Prof. Awanbor, has taken various measures to enrich its examination syllabi and sanitised the conduct of its examinations in a bid to enhance the credibility of its certificates.

As part of the measures aimed at stemming the tide of examinations malpractice, the board adopted a holistic approach to plug all the loopholes often exploited by examination cheats.

Apart from the various machineries put in place to prevent examinations misconduct before, during and after the conduct of its examinations, NABTEB went a step further, last year, by involving members of its Governing Board, led by the Chairman, Senator Ahmed Tijani Ahmed, in the monitoring of the 2005 November/December examinations

This discrimation against HND holders has made the polytechnics to loose most of its good brains to the universities. Students that would have become better technologists for fear of being discriminated migrate to the university to get just the Degree and not the skills; at the end of the day they end up becoming[b] engineers [/b] that would never engineer anything in their live time.

Donmayor, a university graduate was making mouth that polytechnic graduates don't know anything, i gave him one small mathematics that we did in poly to solve since yesterday, the guy never still fit solve am. Any university graduate wey know say him sabi maths make the person help Donmayor out. We poly graduates we gree say we no sabi anything, but make uni graduates solve d maths for us .See the question again:

make Q the subject of the formula:

K = NQ + 0.5 YQ^2

This is from UK not Nigeria, ishmael he get am?

sbucareer:



k = NQ + 0.5 YQ^2

k = Q(N + 0.5YQ * 0.5YQ)

k = Q(N + 0.5Y * 0.5Y)

k = Q(N + Y^2)

K
- = N + Y^2
Q


Q = N + Y^2
-----------------
K

Your answer is wrong.Please for the purpose of clarity it is only Q that is raised to power 2. i.e. K = NQ + 0.5Y(Q*Q)


HND- holder him no get am oo. I tell you say all their university na for mouth.

Sbucareer, you tried although you still did not get the answer because you still do not understand the question.

Please it is only Q that is raised to power 2. The question again is: K = NQ + 0.5Y(Q)^2 Someone else has solved it correctly.

Let me put it this way for you again:

K = NQ + 0.5YQ²

Check under career section; HND certificate an embarrasment?? Six-Sigma has been able to get the solution. Its a simple quadratic equation that is all, chikena!!

sbucareer:



You should have said it was a quadratic equation. In exam, examiner will not trick you like you did to us. Although we know what a quadratic equation is "an equation in which the highest power of an unknown quantity is a square ". The question was tricky. Anyway this exercise do not in anyway infer the correlation of a university grad with  a HND knowledge. The learning curves is too large.

HND students are brilliant people and should be give a fair chance in the job market, but you cannot begin to compare HND with Graduate. If you are concern and believe that you are clever enough, why don't you go and do graduate course to prove your point?

Just wanted to see if you could get the trick; although it was nt meant for you it was meant for one Donmayor who hid himself after seeing the question. Thanx for your comments about HND holders; liked what you just said. Know it now if you don't know; nigerian HND is more or less a Degree. The credit load for HND is more or less that of a Degree; although there are some things you don't need in the polytechnic which are found in the uniersity curriculum; also there are techniques found in the polytechnic curriculum which are not present in the university curriculum. And hope you know that unlike in the UK where HND students don't do a research project, in nigeria you do a research project before you 're awarded or given a National Diploma (ND) and you do a final project for you HND again. But that is not to say that all poly graduates are good; some are not good technically and theoritically. Not all university graduates are good either; some are not better than secondary school graduates. The whole thing boils down to the individual and how you plan to develop yourself and acquire the skills needed by employers. Therefore HND holders in Nigeria who are by far different from HND holders in UK and other countries should be allowed to compete favourably with Degree holders. Who the cap fits let him be allowed to wear it!!

Good talk

HND-holder, we need to educate some of dem who always think and believe that HND in Nigeria is the same as HND in uk where a student gets BTEC HND without doing any research project. We need to let them know that we do research project 2wice in the polytechnic before getting HND in Nigeria.