006:

Wow! where's the bolded from? I've never read such thing before. Where did you get it from?

Have you ever read the book, "In Search of Igbo Identity"?

006:

Since Nri, which is much older than Orlu. . .

I don't understand how Nri is much older than Orlu, since the Orlu have claims to autochthony and the Nri don't.

ChinenyeN:

I actually amended my post and excluded that bolded comment, prior to your response.
I don't understand how Nri is much older than Orlu, since the Orlu have claims to autochthony and the Nri don't.

It makes no difference. Coming in contact with indigenes in that area who they came to know as "Igbo" and coming in contact with indigenes in that area is the same.
My question still remains, where did you get it from?
Do not cook up stories or transform imaginations into fact, please.



Nri is the oldest known people in Southern Nigeria from archeological evidence. I don't know about Orlu and autochthony but one thing is for sure, they know the name of their progenitor and they called themselves Igbo same as Nri people called themselves Igbo.

Rather than changing what you've already posted, post a new one and indicate the correction(s) there.

006:

Rather than changing what you've already posted, post a new one and indicate the correction there.

The "modify" button was designed for a reason.

006:

Nri is the oldest known people in Southern Nigeria from archeological evidence.

I still do not understand this one, right here. Unlike other groups south of Nri, the Nri have no claims to autochthony. So, I really do not understand how the Nri are the oldest.

006:

I don't know about Orlu and autochthony but one thing is for sure, they know the name of their progenitor and they called themselves Igbo same as Nri people called themselves Igbo.

If you mean recently, then yes.

ChinenyeN:

The "modify" button was designed for a reason.
I still do not understand this one, right here. Unlike other groups south of Nri, the Nri have no claims to autochthony. So, I really do not understand how the Nri are the oldest.
If you mean recently, then yes.

If you have to be changing what you've already posted, how do you expect anyone to reply you anymore if the person knew that what he/she was replying to could be changed from "white" to "black"?

Modify button is used to correct spelling errors or punctuation but not the content and meaning of the post.

006:

Modify button is used to correct spelling errors or punctuation but not the content and meaning of the post.

Okay. Thank you for informing me of that.

ChinenyeN:

I still do not understand this one, right here. Unlike other groups south of Nri, the Nri have no claims to autochthony. So, I really do not understand how the Nri are the oldest.

Nri does not because no one fell from the sky. Everyone originated from somewhere.
From every known literature on Nigerian history, Nri has the oldest know history in Southern Nigeria. I've told you to read about Nri extensively.

ChinenyeN:

If you mean recently, then yes.

Before you dispute that, you must have evidence of what they used to call themselves. So what is it?

Post moved to a new thread: Igbos in Bini

https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-474299.0.html

006:

Nri does not because no one fell from the sky. Everyone originated from somewhere.
From every know literature on Nigerian history, Nri have the oldest know history. I've told you to read about Nri extensively.

I would not be talking about the Nri, if I haven't spent time reading about that group of people who have been over-talked about and who's culture is the basis of what people erroneously write about "the Igbo".

006:

Before you dispute that, you must have evidence of what they used to call themselves. So what is it?

"In Search of Igbo Identity" & The Awka Division Anthropological Report of 1931. The Nri called others near them "Igbo" (and not themselves) and they claimed [figuratively] to "eat Igbo". Like many other Igbo groups, the Nri referring to themselves as Igbo is a recent occurrence.

ChinenyeN:

I would not be talking about the Nri, if I haven't spent time reading about that group of people who have been over-talked about and who's culture is the basis of what people erroneously write about "the Igbo".
"In Search of Igbo Identity" & The Awka Division Anthropological Report of 1931. The Nri called others near them "Igbo" (and not themselves) and they claimed [figuratively] to "eat Igbo". Like many other Igbo groups, the Nri referring to themselves as Igbo is a recent occurrence.

What about Igbo-Ukwu, the capital of Nri?

Or what about Igbuzo (Igbo bi na uzo), that traced their origin to Nri?

@ Chinenye,

If you like, you can address the point I raised that Nri has the oldest recorded history in Southern Nigeria.

006:

What about Igbo-Ukwu, the capital of Nri?

The Orlu claim that settlement because their primogenitor Igbo Ngidi is said to have founded it, same with Ama-Igbo. Both are in reference to the ancestor, Igbo Ngidi.

006:

If you like, you can address the point I raised that Nri has the oldest recorded history in Southern Nigeria.

This is not so difficult. Considering that most of what was written about pre-colonial Igbo focused on a select few northern Igbo cultural zones, it is understandable that the Awka-Nri stretch would be the earliest and most extensively focused on stretch of communities, as compared to southern and eastern Igbo cultural zones, which hadn't made any contact with Europeans until after the slave trade.

ChinenyeN:

The Orlu claim that settlement because their primogenitor Igbo Ngidi is said to have founded it, same with Ama-Igbo. Both are in reference to the ancestor, Igbo Ngidi.

You didn't answer my question at all.
You claimed that the Nri referring to themselves as Igbo was a recent occurrence.
I brought up Igbo-Ukwu and Igbuzo, and you skipped it.

Could you for once accept the reality about Igbos?

ChinenyeN:

This is not so difficult. Considering that most of what was written about pre-colonial Igbo focused on a select few northern Igbo cultural zones, it is understandable that the Awka-Nri stretch would be the earliest and most extensively focused on stretch of communities, as compared to southern and eastern Igbo cultural zones, which hadn't made any contact with Europeans until after the slave trade.

We have to work with what we have and not base our argument on assumptions and imaginations.
So far in Southern Nigeria, Nri predates both Bini and Ife cultures. If other Igbo clans have evidence to the contrary, let them bring it forward.

ChinenyeN:

The Orlu claim that settlement because their primogenitor Igbo Ngidi is said to have founded it, same with Ama-Igbo. Both are in reference to the ancestor, Igbo Ngidi.
This is not so difficult. Considering that most of what was written about pre-colonial Igbo focused on a select few northern Igbo cultural zones, it is understandable that the Awka-Nri stretch would be the earliest and most extensively focused on stretch of communities, as compared to southern and eastern Igbo cultural zones, which hadn't made any contact with Europeans until after the slave trade.

you should please verify before posting.''orlu" as a term does it refer to orlu village,orlu city,orlu lga,or orlu zone?

igbo ngidi is the progenitor of amaigbo or isu clan.the word isu usually refers to nri in ancient igbo.isuama means the land of isus.orlu village is isu,but orlu zone has orsu,oru and isu who all speak different dialects and viewed themselves as different clans.an isu man cannot really understand orsu dialect.

ChinenyeN:

The Orlu claim that settlement because their primogenitor Igbo Ngidi is said to have founded it, same with Ama-Igbo. Both are in reference to the ancestor, Igbo Ngidi.
This is not so difficult. Considering that most of what was written about pre-colonial Igbo focused on a select few northern Igbo cultural zones, it is understandable that the Awka-Nri stretch would be the earliest and most extensively focused on stretch of communities, as compared to southern and eastern Igbo cultural zones, which hadn't made any contact with Europeans until after the slave trade.

you should please verify before posting.''orlu" as a term does it refer to orlu village,orlu city,orlu lga,or orlu zone?

igbo ngidi is the progenitor of amaigbo or isu clan.the word isu usually refers to nri in ancient igbo.isuama means the land of isus.orlu village is isu,but orlu zone has orsu,oru and isu who all speak different dialects and viewed themselves as different clans.an isu man cannot really understand orsu dialect.

Abagworo:

you should please verify before posting.''orlu" as a term does it refer to orlu village,orlu city,orlu lga,or orlu zone?

igbo ngidi is the progenitor of amaigbo or isu clan.the word isu usually refers to nri in ancient igbo.isuama means the land of isus.orlu village is isu,but orlu zone has orsu,oru and isu who all speak different dialects and viewed themselves as different clans.an isu man cannot really understand orsu dialect.

This validates my assertion that Nri called themselves Igbo.
Igbuzo has their origin from Nshi (Nri) and that's another proof, Chinenye.

I'm just now seeing that question about Igbouzo. Well, I stated earlier that I do not know the story(ies) of Igbouzo, so I cannot comment on that. You brought up Igbo-Ukwu, and I brought up Umu Igbo Ngidi (Orlu people) in connection to Igbo-Ukwu and Ama-Igbo, pre-colonially. Those are the only people, whom I know of, to have called themselves "Igbo", in pre-colonial times and they recollect Igbo Ngidi as their primogenitor; not Nri/Eri.

006:

We have to work with what we have and not base our argument on assumptions and imaginations.
So far in Southern Nigeria, Nri predates both Bini and Ife cultures. If other Igbo clans have evidence to the contrary, let them bring it forward.

. .  and what we have is more than just what Europeans have written, and what Anambra people have re-written. We have traditions of origin which compliment each other. I brought up the Orlu and their connection to Igbo-Ukwu. You said you don't much know about them, and have dismissed my Orlu-relate responses. I would also take that to mean that you don't know much about the riverine or Isu groups, but to be sure, I have to ask. Do you know about the riverine (Oru) or other Isu groups? Or is your knowledge just based on Anambra?

Abagworo:

you should please verify before posting.''orlu" as a term does it refer to orlu village,orlu city,orlu lga,or orlu zone?

igbo ngidi is the progenitor of amaigbo or isu clan.the word isu usually refers to nri in ancient igbo.isuama means the land of isus.orlu village is isu,but orlu zone has orsu,oru and isu who all speak different dialects and viewed themselves as different clans.an isu man cannot really understand orsu dialect.

I have always thought the Isuama were more connect with Nri, and not necessarily the Isu, in particular. So, when I say "Isu" I am referring to Imo state groups to the east of Oru and Orsu people, who also claim autocthony. When I say "Isuama", I refer mainly to groups north of Oru and Orsu. Also, when I speak of Orlu, I refer to those who are Isu (that claim Igbo Ngidi as their progenitor), and not the whole Orlu zone that comprises of different groups, but I guess could also be wrong though.

ChinenyeN:

. .  and what we have is more than just what Europeans have written, and what Anambra people have re-written. We have traditions of origin which compliment each other. I brought up the Orlu and their connection to Igbo-Ukwu. You said you don't much know about them, and have dismissed my Orlu-relate responses. I would also take that to mean that you don't know much about the riverine or Isu groups, but to be sure, I have to ask. Do you know about the riverine (Oru) or other Isu groups? Or is your knowledge just based on Anambra?

Abagworo has helped me on that. Igbo ngidi was the progenitor of Amaigbo or Isu clan and the word isu means nri. That means Isuama was from Nri.
I think the picture is getting clearer now.

Abagworo:

you should please verify before posting.''orlu" as a term does it refer to orlu village,orlu city,orlu lga,or orlu zone?

igbo ngidi is the progenitor of amaigbo or isu clan.the word isu usually refers to nri in ancient igbo.isuama means the land of isus.orlu village is isu,but orlu zone has orsu,oru and isu who all speak different dialects and viewed themselves as different clans.an isu man cannot really understand orsu dialect.

This reminds me of the answer I gave to #8. From all I've gathered, I kind of feel inclined to think of the Isuama as in-part, Isu, and in-part Eri descendants, but I could also be wrong in this, as well.

Igbo ngidi was the progenitor of Amaigbo or Isu clan and the word isu means nri. That means Isuama was from Nri.

Since this same Igbo ngidi was the progenitor of Orlu as you said, then Orlu and claims of autochthony does not exist.



With time, we'll trace the root of Ngwa     

isu,nshi,nri,eri,ishu were used in reference to nri.but as we all know everything is too complex to be certain.the word onicha which was used in reference to umuezechime  is in ebonyi,abia,imo,delta and anambra.it is however only the delta and anambra onichas that claim ezechimens.

ChinenyeN:

My turn to answer those questions. Anyone should feel free to add/subtract to, or discuss the content of my post.

7is there any village or town in igboland apart from igboukwu and amaigbo that traditionally reffered to themselves pre-colonial times as igbo and who are they?
----- Because I do not know the story(ies) of Igbouzo and Akwukwu Igbo, I can only really say that the only two communities that, in pre-colonial times, referred to themselves as "Igbo" were the people of Igbo-Ukwu and Ama-Igbo. Then, there's the people of Orlu who, I believe have in pre-colonial times referred to themselves as Umu Igbo (they recall a progenitor whose name is/was "Igbo Ngidi". So maybe Ama-Igbo and Igbo-Ukwu are Orlu offshoot settlements. Just a deduction, so no one should quote me on that.

I recognize that the things I say may be faulty, and I always try to account for my possible faultiness within my posts. So I'm always more than willing to accept correction, whenever necessary.

Abagworo:

isu,nshi,nri,eri,ishu were used in reference to nri.but as we all know everything is too complex to be certain.the word onicha which was used in reference to umuezechime  is in ebonyi,abia,imo,delta and anambra.it is however only the delta and anambra onichas that claim ezechimens.

It is interesting that you would make such a comment, because I've always known them to be two distinct people. Granted though, I know/thought there are some Isu elements that blended with Eri/Nri elements, in Nri hegemonic territory (that's where my understanding of who the Isuama are comes in), but I've never known Isu and Nri to be one and the same.

For example, this book, "Once Upon A Kingdom: Myth, Hegemony and Identity": http://books.google.com/books?id=DC-Q6vgEYTQC&pg=RA1-PA55-IA1&lpg=RA1-PA55-IA1&dq=isu+and+nri&source=bl&ots=Y0eHxfQMib&sig=osZeMj60Zj_xN6DcOZexe9QQ-EY&hl=en&ei=uTUzTLa8EYT68Abf7tSMAw&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=2&ved=0CBoQ6AEwAQ#v=onepage&q=isu%20and%20nri&f=false [ . . . ] a clear distinction is made between Isu and Nri elements; a distinction which I'm all too familiar with.

006, interestingly enough, the book discusses Ibusa origins. I do admit though, after reading #44 of that book, I see my error in stating that some Nri elements did not see themselves as Igbo. I just never knew/thought that Nri, in particular, considered themselves as "Igbo" pre-colonially. Everything I've come across has always hinted at a difference between Nri and Igbo. The Nri called nearby, surrounding groups "Igbo" (even to the point of saying that they "eat Igbo" - probably to indicate hegemonic authority over the Igbo), but nothing to say that Nri themselves considered themselves "Igbo" until as of late. Oh well though. As Abagworo stated, it's all complex, but I still am inclined to believe that marked distinctions exist.

ChinenyeN:

For example, this book, "Once Upon A Kingdom: Myth, Hegemony and Identity": http://books.google.com/books?id=DC-Q6vgEYTQC&pg=RA1-PA55-IA1&lpg=RA1-PA55-IA1&dq=isu+and+nri&source=bl&ots=Y0eHxfQMib&sig=osZeMj60Zj_xN6DcOZexe9QQ-EY&hl=en&ei=uTUzTLa8EYT68Abf7tSMAw&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=2&ved=0CBoQ6AEwAQ#v=onepage&q=isu%20and%20nri&f=false [ . . . ] a clear distinction is made between Isu and Nri elements; a distinction which I'm all too familiar with.

I know about the Nri and Isu heritage of the Igbuzo. However, they traced the town/village Isu, that one of their progenitors came from, to Nnewi which is still part of Nri (as in people not Nri town).
It’s the Igbuzo that created the confusion as if Isu and Nri are different - this probably stemmed from the fact that what were involved were two towns, Nri and Isu, and not peoples.
All in all Nri and Isu are the same.

If I'm not mistaking, that is a recent claim made and propagated by one man. Also, I'm sorry, but after all that I've read and upon all the questions I've asked, and all the historians & custodians I've spoken with, I'm still inclined to believe that a distinction exists between Isu and Nri elements, but I guess I'll just have to go and read more and ask more questions to further understand the situation.

ChinenyeN:

If I'm not mistaking, that is a recent claim made and propagated by one man. Also, I'm sorry, but after all that I've read and upon all the questions I've asked, and all the historians & custodians I've spoken with, I'm still inclined to believe that a distinction exists between Isu and Nri elements, but I guess I'll just have to go and read more and ask more questions to further understand the situation.

. . . you better do.

Nah, you know what. Nevermind. Forget I asked.

Nah, you know what, nevermind. Forget I asked.

1.why do igbo people like telling lies ? is is their birth right , when have you seen a ika man saying he is a bini man? or is it because we reject igbo ethnicity that this lies and propaganda are sustained ?
2. ika is ika ethnic group , we have said it may be i should make it bold WE ARE NOT BINI AND WE ARE NOT IGBO.
3. WE ARE IKA ETHNIC GROUP , OUR FATHERS MADE THIS DECLARATION IN 1930- when bini told british they own agbor and our people told them that ika is seperate from all ethnic group in southern nigeria.
at another time majority of our people spoke via action during the civil war by saying we are not igbo .and so biafra was expelled.
4. ika is a heterogenous group that came together, after lots of intermarriage and shared culture , some ika people came from bini, ishan,igbo,ukwani,aniocha and even yoruba and igala areas into ika land .but we do know that the original founders of most ika communities are bini and ishan people and later igbo also found some areas ,that is what we say and the names of this founders still bear bini testimonies and the names of most of our forefathers can bear testimonies to it.but we have never said we are bini and we are not igbo , but we are ika.
5. we do know that in the last 100 years ika came under lots of igbo influence due to the british using igbo teachers and church men to preach the gospel ,so but that also does not make us igbos.
6. we have ogua/onu ika as our highest socio-cultural group , while igbos have ohaneze ndigbo.and yes we have some ika people whose ancestory came from igbo land especially in the eastern axis of ika land such as igbodo and ekwuoma who believe they are igbos , well that is their right ,but the majority of ikas have spoken and we say we are not igbo,but ika.
7.our language is called ika and we do not call it igbo , it is an amalgam of edo, igbo, other indigenous language and even yoruba words.so we call it ika , and we also have some ika people that speak an edo language called ozara.
8. there is no amount of sustained propaganda that will make majority of ikas to see themselves as igbo , so the igbos better learn and toe the line of reason, benins have long recognised ika as a seperate ethnicity .
if it is similarity of language that determines an ethnic group then isoko will be uhrobo, and ishan will be bini, and itsekiri will be yoruba . so the arguement that ika ,speak a kind of igbo is already defeated .and americans will become britons or british because they speak english.
9. the culture, traditions of origin have told us where our forefathers come from and we know it ,but today we are ika ethnic nation.
10.as many people who care to listen let them know that bini, yoruba, ika , igbo,and the rest ethnic groups were founded or made to be founded by european influence and so these are all man made and it is for politics , and so any group of people have the right to form their ethnic group ,if they know and believe that certain things bind them, or which nigerian ethnicity existed 250 years ago ? the answer is none

^^^ It is not proper for you to jump to any thread with the same IKa nonsense that you copy and paste. Quit this thread if you are not intelligent to discuss issues raised here.