vaxx:
innate ability cannot be lost as it is part Of you ...

This is what is said about infant swimming:

It is extremely important to note that while babies can imitate swimming motions and reflexes, they are not yet physically capable of swimming.

We all know that if you don't learn to swim and jump into the river you would just drink it dry since it would appear you have completely lost the supposed innate ability to swim but which you claim "cannot be lost as it is part of you".

vaxx:
read again Buddha....nothing i posted here disagree with Wikipedia references you forward.

You said babies have an innate ability to swim. Wiki says they have reflexes that make it seem they swim but they can't! So how are you and wiki saying the same thing vaxx?

vaxx:
i am aware of this phenomenon and that is why I ask you to make a little research before coming up with evidence .

Of course they need our help to make them perfect the swimming but naturally baby does have a natural ability to swim, the natural ability comes from a pair of reflexes she has when she's in the water. And that is what i am trying to show or prove .

The swimming reflex. If you support a baby in water tummy-side down she will move her arms and legs in a swimming motion.

Dive reflex. A baby will hold her breath and open her eyes when she's under water.

I would have to side budaatum on this one. If I know how to play football better than Messi but I have no legs, do I have the ability to play football? Ability to perform a certain task means you have all it takes to successfully execute the task.

budaatum:

This is what is said about infant swimming:

It is extremely important to note that while babies can imitate swimming motions and reflexes, they are not yet physically capable of swimming.

We all know that if you don't learn to swim and jump into the river you would just drink it dry since it would appear you have completely lost the supposed innate ability to swim but which you claim "cannot be lost as it is part of you".

This is where learnning take its position. Baby ofcourse we need an adult guide to perfect this skills.


The baby in its own posses an inbuilt reflex That allow this but adult aid is needed to accomplish it.

budaatum:

You said babies have an innate ability to swim. Wiki says they have reflexes that make it seem they swim but they can't! So how are you and wiki saying the same thing vaxx?

the reflexes is the innate ability.

Martinez19:
I would have to side budaatum on this one. If I know how to play football better than Messi but I have no legs, do I have the ability to play football? Ability to perform a certain task means you have all it takes to successfully execute the task.

Thank you. And there's the fact that Messi developed over time and was not born with a football at his feet when he came out the womb.

So, can we say, the ability to be empathic is innate?
And to what extent would it be innate, if it were?

vaxx:
the reflexes is the innate ability.

And not "swimming"?

Martinez19:
I would have to side budaatum on this one. If I know how to play football better than Messi but I have no legs, do I have the ability to play football? Ability to perform a certain task means you have all it takes to successfully execute the task.

ability to perform a certain task means you posses the required standard to accomplish a goal.

A skillfull footballer who is on the bench due to injury does not its possession, falculty or the skills, he just lost the means to play football.

vaxx:
This is where learnning take its position. Baby ofcourse we need an adult guide to perfect this skills.


The baby in its own posses an inbuilt reflex That allow this but adult aid is needed to accomplish it.

So, it has to be taught, and learnt? Do you understand where learning lies in the definition of 'innate'?

Reflex is not a skill, vaxx, in this instance, at least!

For those who are religiously following this thread, here I my detailed take on morality. I mixed up this thread with the johnydon22's thread. I wrote it as a reply to budaatum.

A man's morality is govern by two things: his reasoning and empathy/compassion. Empathy and compassion is innate but what we shall be empathic and compassionate towards depends on our reasoning (a term I used to refer to our judgements based on our intelligence, logical prowess, knowledge base and convictions). We might be empathic towards animals but if we are convinced that a god exists; we are to fear him and offer animal sacrifices to him and we are brainwashed to think God provided animals to be used as sacrifices, we won't find anything wrong with sacrificing animals to god. In this case, our reasoning blunts our empathy/compassion towards animals. But if our reasoning is upgraded [ ie. We aquire the right knowledge (which obviously influences and dictates conviction)] and we see that there is no God and therefore no good reason to sacrifice animals and we realise that animals have feelings and consciousness and are deserving of empathy, we deem animal sacrifices immoral because it's torturous and has no positive or negative consequences in the long run (check the maths I gave johnydon2z). I dare say that, in a similar fashion, this how the abolition of slavery began. Some men saw that there is no good reason to enslave and torture humans despite the fact that the majority judged slavery okay (the bible and their christian upbringing influenced their reasoning and their empathy towards blacks were blunted but that wasn't the case for the slave liberators whose thinking were upgraded and there was nothing to blunt their empathy. These same slave masters would be found to be empathic towards their children because they have no reason not to except they were like Nigerians who torture their children because A CLERGY TOLD them that their children are witches). The upper case "ACL CLERGY TOLD THEM" highlights what and how there reasoning are influenced.

Check out the maths I gave johnydon2z that describes how people are biological wired to build up their moral codes and see the interplay of empathy/compassion and reasoning. What a man would deem moral or immoral depends on two factors: his reasoning(his judgments based on intelligence, logical prowess, knowledge base and convinction) and empathy/compassion. Empathy and compassion is innate(as it is an ability we are born with) but what we would be empathic and compassionate towards is not innate and it depends on our reasoning. Since our reasoning are different, what a person would deem immoral is what another man would not deem immoral. Men in Muslim countries deem premarital sex immoral and a taboo but atheists do not deem it immoral because they reason differently. However since truth is objective, if people's reasoning are upgraded(ie. they acquire the right knowledge and they believe it), the range of things they find moral shall increase proportionate and the limit of that increase in the objective morality(that only moral code no one can make a case against) . So while that is not yet happening, what people deem moral shall vary. Hope my stance on morality is understood?

vaxx:
ability to perform a certain task means you posses the required standard to accomplish a goal.

A skillfull footballer who is on the bench due to injury does not its possession, falculty or the skills, he just lost the means to play football.

Clarify your second paragraph.

budaatum:

And not "swimming"?

swimming is the ability of using legs and arms to move the body thru water..

Reflex is anything that is determined or reproduced by the most essential features of something else.

In regards to swimming, what do you think are the essential features of swimming? And i will tell you baby reflex it.

Martinez19:
Clarify your second paragraph.

I mean when football club like arsenal bench a footballer on the pitch due to injury, it still does not literarilly translate to losing of its ability. He only lost capacity to play and not possession or falculty.

budaatum:

So, it has to be taught, and learnt? Do you understand where learning lies in the definition of 'innate'?

Reflex is not a skill, vaxx, in this instance, at least!

reflex is an inbuilt mechanism on the baby, the teaching only come in for the baby to perfect her motion.

There are study to prove baby already had this mechanism inbuilt. Wikipedia page you reference support it.

budaatum:

Thank you. And there's the fact that Messi developed over time and was not born with a football at his feet when he came out the womb.

So, can we say, the ability to be empathic is innate?
And to what extent would it be innate, if it were?

You need to make a distinction between the ability to kick a ball and being a professional and skillful player and also raw talent and refined talent.

The ability to kick a ball(be empathy and compassionate) is inborn for normal people where as a professional level of play(what we show empathy and compassion to) is developed and learned. Empathy and compassion is inborn but through reasoning, we decided what to show show empathy and compassion to.

vaxx:
I mean when football club like arsenal bench a footballer on the pitch due to injury, it still does not literarilly translate to losing of its ability. He only lost capacity to play and not possession and falculty.

Of course. Being benched doesn't mean he has lost the ability because the player still has two legs. Being benched is different from losing two legs. The benched player with two legs can be shown to have the ability to play if you bring him into the game where as it's not possible for the person that has no leg.

Martinez19:

The ability to kick a ball(be empathy and compassionate) is inborn for normal people where as a professional level of play(what we show empathy and compassion to) is developed and learned. Empathy and compassion is inborn but through reasoning, we decided what to show show empathy and compassion to.

I categorically reject the distinction you are attempting to make here! You yourself mentioned Messi, so don't try making it "kick a ball" now. Professional level of play is not "what we show empathy and compassion to"! Its simple kicking a ball better!

The ability to kick a ball at all (be empathic and compassionate) is inborn (yuk) for normal people, but whether one is empathic or compassionate at all, is learnt.

Yuk is to denote very reluctance leaning to acceptance with very strong reservations.

Martinez19:
Of course. Being benched doesn't mean he has lost the ability because the player still has two legs. Being benched is different from losing two legs. The benched player with two legs can be shown to have the ability to play if you bring him into the game where as it's not possible for the person that has no leg.

So can I further argue loosing two legs does not make footballer less able as well. Assuming we already perfected our technology enhancing mechanism . Where something like cable blade can replace the loosing leg.

The main theme of football by then will be limited to the knowledge and not the leg.

They are many cars that can be drive by handicap today, that does not make them less driver. Even computer are used by blind this days and yet it does not make them computer illiterates.

Your skills is your skills, nothing is taking it away unless the means to perfect the skills.

vaxx:

There are study to prove baby already had this mechanism inbuilt. Wikipedia page you reference support it.

Please provide a single quote from the page that makes you say the above!

budaatum:

Please provide a single quote from the page that makes you say the above!

you aready had it in your quote. Maybe i will bold it.

vaxx:
you aready had it in your quote. Maybe i will bold it.

Please do.

budaatum:

I categorically reject the distinction you are attempting to make here! You yourself mentioned Messi, so don't try making it "kick a ball" now. Professional level of play is not "what we show empathy and compassion to"! Its simple kicking a ball better!

The ability to kick a ball at all (be empathic and compassionate) is inborn (yuk) for normal people, but whether one is empathic or compassionate at all, is learnt.

Yuk is to denote very reluctance leaning to acceptance with very strong reservations.

I am not trying shift the goal post. I never mentioned knowing how to play better than Messi is inborn. I was simply trying to show vaxx that no matter how great the knowledge or reflex one has for a particular task, if one doesn't have the features to successfully execute it, then one doesn't have the ability. Hope you get?

Though the analogy may not be perfect but I was trying to say that a professional level of play is not inborn or else we would be talking of talent. Like wise, what we show empathy towards is not inborn but depend on reasoning.

budaatum:

Did you "Research on this phenomenon" before you posted about it?

Infant swimming is the phenomenon of human babies and toddlers reflexively moving themselves through water and changing their rate of respiration and heart rate in response to being submerged. The slowing of heart rate and breathing is called the bradycardic response. It is not true that babies are born with the ability to swim, ][b]though they have reflexes that make it look like they ar[/b]e[/ Babies are not old enough to hold their breath intentionally or strong enough to keep their head above water.

Budaatum ...the bolded...

vaxx:
Budaatum ...the bolded...

"Reflexes that make it look like they are", specifically implies they are not swimming, at least within context.

Vaxx, I've told you about this thing of yours you do when we've discussed before and would not be doing it again here. The wiki page has a clear position on infant swimming!

budaatum:


"Reflexes that make it look like they are", specifically implies they are not swimming, at least within context.

Vaxx, I've told you about this thing of yours you do when we've discussed before and would not be doing it again here. The wiki page has a clear position on infant swimming!

I am not even debating you. I am discussing here . I want you not to focus too much on the definition but the applicability because the definition are always limited in scope.


I already imply what it means by swimming and I have gave reasons why baby do.

I raised a question what is the essentials of swimming?

vaxx:
I am not even debating you. I am discussing here . I want you not to focus too much on the definition but the applicability because the definition are always limited in scope.


I already imply what it means by swimming and I have gave reasons why baby do.

I raised a question what is the essentials of swimming?

The only 'reason' you gave was 'reflex', which wiki said was not swimming. If you remove the adult support from the baby, will it swim, vaxx?

If we can't agree on the definition of "swimming" we are not going to get anywhere with empathy, innate, compassion etc. Focus, and let us learn, please.

Please see reflexes in newborns, perhaps it would put us on the same wavelength.

budaatum:

The only 'reason' you gave was 'reflex', which wiki said was not swimming. If you remove the adult support from the baby, will it swim, vaxx?

If we can't agree on the definition of "swimming" we are not going to get anywhere with empathy, innate, compassion etc. Focus, and let us learn, please.

if you are interested in the definition then., tell us what is the essential of swimming.

The adult position is to perfect the motion and not make the baby swim originally. The ability is already there. What is left is perfection.

IT IS JUST LIKE HAVING A CAR BUT STILL NEED AN OPERATOR TO Make it drive. Already the car has the ability to drive but will not drive unless it is operated.


The work of the operator is to set up the inbuilt motion of the car to drive. There is already an ability for the car to drive already.

vaxx:
There is already an ability for the car to drive already.
Already the car has the ability to drive but will not drive unless it is operated.

A car, does not "have the ability to drive", vaxx!

budaatum:

A car, does not "have the ability to drive", vaxx!

A car thus....even artificial intelligence car had perfected the skills without the need of an operator.


A computerised car that can drive on its own is available even without operator

budaatum:
Please see reflexes in newborns, perhaps it would put us on the same wavelength.

read on central pattern generator as well.

Martinez19:

Though the analogy may not be perfect but I was trying to say that a professional level of play is not inborn or else we would be talking of talent. Like wise, what we show empathy towards is not inborn but depend on reasoning.

I think showing empathy, and being compassionate, are higher skill sets, as in abilities that have developed over very long periods of time. Yes, neanderthal was empathic, and compassionate, but no where near as professional as we are capable of being today. And I bet you the older people become, the more empathic and compassionate they become. Or don't you meet some 'think of themselves' out there.

If at all empathy and compassion were inborn, I doubt it could be any better than just "kicking a ball". Throw vaxx's able to swim baby in the river and I honestly believe it will drown. To be Messi, or empathic, or compassionate, or swim, to a competent degree, one needs more than innateness.

As to evidence of my claim? Come back in a few months and let's see how just discussing it makes us better at being compassionate and empathic.