Pardon me if I sound like a broken record on this suffering thing but there are some issues that we should not just fold our arms upon. One that am so particular about is the concept of suffering especially from the biblical point of view. Over time, people have devised smart answers to address this obvious problem and such answers include:

a. God is testing us- This view is still widely-held among christians but my reservation is that some of these tests come too harsh and they never end. So what's the point if you never get a chance to use the lesson learnt(e.g. dying in the suffering).

b. God is punishing sin- Quite intellectual for the early biblical scholars and adherents but the fact that good people suffer too puts a hole in this theory.

c. Free will- The free will vs predestination thread on NL is one of the finest discussions i have read on this forum though i was nothing more than an observer. Free will? Yes free will! Since God gave humans free will, why then should we blame him if someone like Hitler or Stalin decides to use his free will to inflict massive pain and torture on fellow humans in large numbers? This is fairly reasonable but also fails on further dissection. History(according to the bible, that is) has proven that God often gets involved to intercept some not-well-meaning acts of free will e.g saving Israelites from Pharaoh, masterminding the escape of Joseph and Mary from Herod to save baby Jesus. Why then was he quiet during the holocaust? (let's stick to the holocaust because as big as the world is, the jews happen to be his "chosen" people.) A baby being born with a heart disease is a suffering which I find incompatible with the free will hypothesis.

Let me pause here. The issue here IS NOT:
1. A christian vs others duel.
2. Am right and you're wrong display of arrogance typical of NL's religion section.
3. A testing ground for insults. _{(i know this wont hold lai lai)}

Instead, I want to hear juicy perspectives of the christian as to the problems of suffering. We can use Job as a classic example of this anatomy of Christian suffering.

Here is an engraved invitation to all bright minds in the house.
(folds arms and waits for the 1st response)
Thanks.

ilosiwaju:



Let me pause here. The issue here IS NOT:
1. A christian vs others duel.
2. Am right and you're wrong display of arrogance typical of NL's religion section.

3. A testing ground for insults. _{(i know this wont hold lai lai)}

The above is very common with ur folks that seems to get easily agitated and result to insult on the theist that wouldnt accept their views no?

Take note of the bolded, the hermaphrodite on NL religion section is very guilty of it. Very soon u will see

ilosiwaju:

Instead, I want to hear juicy perspectives of the christian as to the problems of suffering. We can use Job as a classic example of this anatomy of Christian suffering.

Here is an engraved invitation to all bright minds in the house.
(folds arms and waits for the 1st response)
Thanks.

I really love this part in ur post. I hope i'll have chance to also contribute my view on ur inquiry cheers

ilosiwaju:

Pardon me if I sound like a broken record on this suffering thing but there are some issues that we should not just fold our arms upon. One that am so particular about is the concept of suffering especially from the biblical point of view. Over time, people have devised smart answers to address this obvious problem and such answers include:

a. God is testing us- This view is still widely-held among christians but my reservation is that some of these tests come too harsh and they never end. So what's the point if you never get a chance to use the lesson learnt(e.g. dying in the suffering).

b. God is punishing sin- Quite intellectual for the early biblical scholars and adherents but the fact that good people suffer too puts a hole in this theory.

c. Free will- The free will vs predestination thread on NL is one of the finest discussions i have read on this forum though i was nothing more than an observer. Free will? Yes free will! Since God gave humans free will, why then should we blame him if someone like Hitler or Stalin decides to use his free will to inflict massive pain and torture on fellow humans in large numbers? This is fairly reasonable but also fails on further dissection. History(according to the bible, that is) has proven that God often gets involved to intercept some not-well-meaning acts of free will e.g saving Israelites from Pharaoh, masterminding the escape of Joseph and Mary from Herod to save baby Jesus. Why then was he quiet during the holocaust? (let's stick to the holocaust because as big as the world is, the jews happen to be his "chosen" people.) A baby being born with a heart disease is a suffering which I find incompatible with the free will hypothesis.

Let me pause here. The issue here IS NOT:
1. A christian vs others duel.
2. Am right and you're wrong display of arrogance typical of NL's religion section.
3. A testing ground for insults. _{(i know this wont hold lai lai)}

Instead, I want to hear juicy perspectives of the christian as to the problems of suffering. We can use Job as a classic example of this anatomy of Christian suffering.

Here is an engraved invitation to all bright minds in the house.
(folds arms and waits for the 1st response)
Thanks.

What is 2 + 2 ? 

Rules:

You are not allowed to say the answer is equal to four in any way or form.  You are not allowed to use any formula.

Any other answer is correct as long as it is not 4.

What is the cause of suffering?

[img width=500 height=300]http://www.answersingenesis.org/assets/images/media/cartoons/creationwise/CW_death.gif[/img]

What?  Did you say that the Bible answers are not allowed?

Uncle olaadegbu, does that mean only sinful people suffer? Job's suffering for example had more to do with entertainment or muscle flexing to see whose position was right; Almighty God or his devil's advocate The Devil(no pun intended).

OLAADEGBU:

What?  Did you say that the Bible answers are not allowed?

No i did not. We are only trying to weigh the answers in the bible against what we concretely have on ground.

Chairman:

I'm not very clear yet on what you ask - Is the issue here simply God's non-intervention during the Holocaust and reasons we believe are responsible for it?

Or are you going into a journey into man's suffering where-ever, when-ever and how-ever?

ilosiwaju:

Uncle olaadegbu, does that mean only sinful people suffer? Job's suffering for example had more to do with entertainment or muscle flexing to see whose position was right; Almighty God or his devil's advocate The Devil(no pun intended).
No i did not. We are only trying to weigh the answers in the bible against what we concretely have on ground.

Good. Then this is what my Bible tells me:

"Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for all have sinned" (Romans 5:12 The Evidence Bible).

The Bible tells us that God cursed the earth because of Adam's sin. Weeds are a curse, they even stubbornly push their way through pavements Disease is also a curse that has come as a result of the sin we have inherited. Sin and suffering are inseparable. If you read your Bible you will discover that we live in a fallen creation. In the beginning God created Adam perfect and he lived in a perfect world without suffering. It was "heaven on earth" until sin came into the world and it was then that death and misery came with it.

Ah yes indeed. . . . . Let this be a fruitful discussion (i doubt if we'd see any new stuff, we've heard it all before). We dont want dumbass posts from empty heads who are forever promising to contribute 'later' but bring nothing tangible to the discussion even given till thy kingdom come.

@Ilosiwaju, thanks for the other day. . . I really dig those stuffs. Hv scored a few points with the right people if u know what i mean. . .

ilosiwaju:

Pardon me if I sound like a broken record on this suffering thing but there are some issues that we should not just fold our arms upon. One that am so particular about is the concept of suffering especially from the biblical point of view. Over time, people have devised smart answers to address this obvious problem and such answers include:

a. God is testing us- This view is still widely-held among christians but my reservation is that some of these tests come too harsh and they never end. So what's the point if you never get a chance to use the lesson learnt(e.g. dying in the suffering).

b. God is punishing sin- Quite intellectual for the early biblical scholars and adherents but the fact that good people suffer too puts a hole in this theory.

c. Free will- The free will vs predestination thread on NL is one of the finest discussions i have read on this forum though i was nothing more than an observer. Free will? Yes free will! Since God gave humans free will, why then should we blame him if someone like Hitler or Stalin decides to use his free will to inflict massive pain and torture on fellow humans in large numbers? This is fairly reasonable but also fails on further dissection. History(according to the bible, that is) has proven that God often gets involved to intercept some not-well-meaning acts of free will e.g saving Israelites from Pharaoh, masterminding the escape of Joseph and Mary from Herod to save baby Jesus. Why then was he quiet during the holocaust? (let's stick to the holocaust because as big as the world is, the jews happen to be his "chosen" people.) A baby being born with a heart disease is a suffering which I find incompatible with the free will hypothesis.

Nice thread I must say . . . but lets be clear on the posers u raised.

1. If you see the bigger picture, then u would find it plausible as to why man would face trials. God has promised man an eternal life. let us assume "eternal life  = 1,000,000 years" and the highest any man has ever lived is 960 years (methusellah). if a man faces several trials in this limited 960 years, all as an oil to lubricate him into eternal life, was it not worth it? We face trials so that we may know God more and better. David testified of this in psalm 119:71 . ,  David also acknowledged in verse 75 that his afflictions are within the knowledge of God. The case of David is quite interesting, cos before he was afflicted, God had already promised him the throne. why then would God permit a future king to face affliction and live in the wilderness as a destitute for 3 years? The ultimate wisdom in God's decision can be best understood by David's eventual commitment and love for the laws of God that made him a man after God's heart. God also tells that He refines His generals from the furnace of affliction.

2. Sin is a negative catalyst that alters the natural course of things. For when God made everything, He made it good. but the result of sin is eternal damnation and inherent imperfection in todays world. if we define suffering in its context, we would come up with synonyms like poverty, hunger, homelessness, orphanage, diseases, joblessness, lack of basic infrastructure et all. The opposite of this synonyms is perfection . . . this IMO was what God created in the genesis account of creation.

3. Free will remains at the prerogative of the subject. . . .but the boundaries of free will are clearly defined . . . .for instance no mortal being can choose not to die. However, free will is also influenced by the spiritual. I find myself singing praises, I believe that my heart was prompted by the holy spirit to worship. so also does the likes of Hitler get influenced by satanic forces to commit all forms of evil. I dont think it is fair to suggest that God was quite during the holocaust . . . .to say so is to assume that one knows the total plans and intent of Adolf Hitler and his cohorts. Fine, we do know that he wanted the extermination of the jews, but through it all we saw that God (as He usually does) left a remnant for the jews. This singular holocaust led to the establishment of the jewish state of Israel. This was a prophecy made long ago. . . .so we can say that, while Hitler had his evil intentions, God intervened (i.e used the situation) to bring one of His prophecies to pass, like we saw in the case of Job. Where satan wanted to destroy Job, but God permitted the trial in order to make Job a worthy and tried vessel.

Instead, I want to hear juicy perspectives of the christian as to the problems of suffering. We can use Job as a classic example of this anatomy of Christian suffering.

When Job attempted to ask God why he had to go through so much suffering ,   .God replied by asking him, if job knew how the foundation of the world was laid?. . .by this question, God was highlighting the inability of man to have an understanding of the works and purpose of God;s works.

No two sufferings are the same, no two trials are the same. . .many suffer as a result of sin, others as a result of disobedience and others as a trial and others simply suffer en-route their break through. For instance, the challenges and trials I have faced personally in life . . .I asked God why . . . and He was kind enough to answer me.

Its interesting that no one has mentioned the giant elephant in the room - that most times suffering is DUE to the consequences of our own actions. Lot suffered in Sodom and gomorah (lost his wife and possessions) . . . but HE chose sodom! David lost his first child with bathsheba after all the tears and prayer - but he commited murder just to get to that woman.

and on and on and on you can give so many examples. Most often times christians are victims of their own wrong decisions but proceed to blame God for allowing suffering. It is NOT suffering if you fail to pass your exams and end up in poverty . . .

^^^
That is one way of looking at it, but what about the newborn child born with a congenital malformation? Is it as a consequence of his/her actions in the womb?

@OP: You ask that "We can use Job as a classic example of this anatomy of Christian suffering." I 'd like to know if you 've read the book of Job and what are your opinions on it as an explanation of suffering?

aletheia:

^^^
That is one way of looking at it, but what about the newborn child born with a congenital malformation? Is it as a consequence of his/her actions in the womb?

When sin entered into the world, with it came human imperfection . . . the child with a congenital malformation is simply a victim of genetic manipulations. When a couple (both sickle cell disease carriers bear a child with SS . . . whom do we blame?

davidylan:

Its interesting that no one has mentioned the giant elephant in the room - that most times suffering is DUE to the consequences of our own actions. Lot suffered in Sodom and gomorah (lost his wife and possessions) . . . but HE chose sodom! David lost his first child with bathsheba after all the tears and prayer - but he commited murder just to get to that woman.

and on and on and on you can give so many examples. Most often times christians are victims of their own wrong decisions but proceed to blame God for allowing suffering. It is NOT suffering if you fail to pass your exams and end up in poverty . . .

Quite true . . .but this was what I deduced from the OP when he mentioned FREE WILL

davidylan:

When sin entered into the world, with it came human imperfection . . .

A lot of people will want to disagree with that (. . .not I).  

My own take is that at the end of the day, there will be no humanly satisfactory answer (i.e. one that men may find intellectually satisfying) to the question of suffering.

Looking at the example of Job: There are lessons to be found there though the story of Job is the story of one man's suffering. The question is why did Job need to suffer? Reading the story will show that, yes Job was righteous but instead of relying on or looking to the source of his righteousness - God, he exulted in his righteousness.
In chapter 31, we see Job listing his own good works, all with the expectation that:

Job 31:2-3 What would be my portion from God above
and my heritage from the Almighty on high?

Is not calamity for the unrighteous,
and disaster for the workers of iniquity?

And with this in mind, he challenges the Almighty to answer him in verse 35:

Oh, that I had one to hear me!
(Here is my signature! Let the Almighty answer me!)
Oh, that I had the indictment written by my adversary!

But God does not need to justify himself to man:

38:1-3. Then the LORD answered Job out of the whirlwind and said:
Who is this that darkens counsel by words without knowledge?
Dress for action like a man;
I will question you, and you make it known to me.

At the end, we find that Job repenting:

42:1-6. Then Job answered the LORD and said:
I know that you can do all things,
and that no purpose of yours can be thwarted.

Who is this that hides counsel without knowledge?
Therefore I have uttered what I did not understand,
things too wonderful for me, which I did not know.

Hear, and I will speak;
I will question you, and you make it known to me.

I had heard of you by the hearing of the ear,
but now my eye sees you;

therefore I despise myself,
and repent in dust and ashes.

1. If Job had not suffered, his faith would not have undergone development, so in that sense, that was the purpose of Job's suffering and
2. Ultimately, suffering is in accordance with God's purpose for He knows end from beginning and is All-Powerful. Ephesians 1:11 talks about the purpose of Him who works all things according to the counsel of his will.

We see this aspect directly addressed by Jesus in John 9:

9:1-3. As he passed by, he saw a man blind from birth. And his disciples asked him, Rabbi, who sinned, this man or his parents, that he was born blind? Jesus answered, It was not that this man sinned, or his parents, but that the works of God might be displayed in him.

It could be argued that if the man had not been born blind, then he may not have encountered Jesus and thus have the opportunity of being saved. So for this man, his suffering led to his meeting Jesus.

noetic16:

Quite true . . .but this was what I deduced from the OP when he mentioned FREE WILL

I think the OP (i may be wrong) is in the category of those who have already made up their minds. i.e. - God "allows" suffering so automatically He either doesnt exist, does not care about man or is a wicked tyrant.

But many forget that man himself is the chief architect of his own misfortune. Of course there is "suffering" that comes out of testing trials meant to make us stronger christians . . . imagine a world without exams. How would we gauge our level of learning? Is it wicked to design exams to be so difficult knowing some would fail and as a result have their lives aspirations derailed as a result? Is it fair that medical exams are so tough and many fail in the process? Cant we just pass students based merely on attendance as the atheist wants when it comes to God?

Its funny that when it comes to "suffering", the atheist is quick to pull up the Job issue. He/she is only too happy to frame it as a meaningless battle over the egos of mythical "gods" who do not care about the consequences on poor Job. But a quick read of the book of Job enlightens us to the fact that Job was a very close confidante of God. Would God then be wrong to set him an exam to prove him?

davidylan:

I think the OP (i may be wrong) is in the category of those who have already made up their minds. i.e. - God "allows" suffering so automatically He either doesnt exist, does not care about man or is a wicked tyrant.

This is sadly true . . . .as I expect mazaje, tudor et all to jump in and make the above conclusion.

Its funny that when it comes to "suffering", the atheist is quick to pull up the Job issue. He/she is only too happy to frame it as a meaningless battle over the egos of mythical "gods" who do not care about the consequences on poor Job. But a quick read of the book of Job enlightens us to the fact that Job was a very close confidante of God. Would God then be wrong to set him an exam to prove him?

GBAM!!!

Usual suspect hermaphrodite showed up didn't spew insult as usual. trying to grow up

toba:

Usual suspect hermaphrodite showed up didn't spew insult as usual. trying to grow up

Lol u no serious.

I saw ur Sport thread on the Home Page of NL. Are u now a moderator?

davidylan:

I think the OP (i may be wrong) is in the category of those who have already made up their minds. i.e. - God "allows" suffering so automatically He either doesnt exist, does not care about man or is a wicked tyrant.

But many forget that man himself is the chief architect of his own misfortune. Of course there is "suffering" that comes out of testing trials meant to make us stronger christians . . . imagine a world without exams. How would we gauge our level of learning? Is it wicked to design exams to be so difficult knowing some would fail and as a result have their lives aspirations derailed as a result? Is it fair that medical exams are so tough and many fail in the process? Cant we just pass students based merely on attendance as the atheist wants when it comes to God?

Its funny that when it comes to "suffering", the atheist is quick to pull up the Job issue. He/she is only too happy to frame it as a meaningless battle over the egos of mythical "gods" who do not care about the consequences on poor Job. But a quick read of the book of Job enlightens us to the fact that Job was a very close confidante of God. Would God then be wrong to set him an exam to prove him?

U re right david. I do listen to the grail message on topical issues as this i.e suffering. They dont believe that God is responsible for mans suffering. They believe in the law of karma nemesis. Man is the architect of his own problems.
I stand partly with the grail message as regards suffering.

On the other hand, theres the permissive will of God. God allows little suffering to test faith. Christ said u will face trouble in the world but be of good courage course i have conquered the world.

The former takes more than 65% of suffering whilst the latter takes the remainder.

does an omniscient God need to test people. Tests are for human beings, teachers who need to know how much their pupils have learnt, whether or not to pass them on to the next grade, whether or not they are ready for the world of employment. God, being omniscient, doesn't need tests, he already knows whether or not we'll pass, he knows what we are made of.

Did God test job in order to prove to himself that Job was faithful, or did he test Job in order to prove to the adversary (Satan) that he was faithful?

Pastor AIO:

does an omniscient God need to test people. Tests are for human beings, teachers who need to know how much their pupils have learnt, whether or not to pass them on to the next grade, whether or not they are ready for the world of employment. God, being omniscient, doesn't need tests, he already knows whether or not we'll pass, he knows what we are made of.

Did God test job in order to prove to himself that Job was faithful, or did he test Job in order to prove to the adversary (Satan) that he was faithful?

How would u feel if God were to kill you now and dump u in hell because of a heinous crime u are yet to commit in 7 years time?
While God remains omniscient. . . . trials are used by God to help man obtain a state of realisation.

noetic16:

How would u feel if God were to kill you now and dump u in hell because of a heinous crime u are yet to commit in 7 years time?
While God remains omniscient. . . . trials are used by God to help man obtain a state of realisation.

If it was certain that I would commit that crime then preempting it be fully within God's rights. You are treating God as if he were a human judge, with human limitations. If it is certain that I will do something then that is as good as having done it already. However if there is a chance that I might not do it, then it is worth waiting to see if I do it before sentencing me. As God is omniscient he doesn't live in a world of probabilities/possibilities, but in a world of certainty.

Pastor AIO:

If it was certain that I would commit that crime then preempting it be fully within God's rights. You are treating God as if he were a human judge, with human limitations. If it is certain that I will do something then that is as good as having done it already. [b]However if there is a chance that I might not do it, then it is worth waiting to see if I do it before sentencing me. [/b]As God is omniscient he doesn't live in a world of probabilities/possibilities, but in a world of certainty.

This is what God does and calls your FREE WILL. . .this process is called ut trial . . . .meanwhile He sends noetic to you to teach u about repentance. The ultimate choice u make is what determines ur fate. . . .its has nothing to do with the omniscient of God but the free will of man.

Surely you can see that free will is not compatible with Omniscience.

noetic16:

This is what God does and calls your FREE WILL. . .this process is called ut trial . . . .meanwhile He sends noetic to you to teach u about repentance. The ultimate choice u make is what determines your fate. . . .its has nothing to do with the omniscient of God but the free will of man.

ps. And neither have biblical foundations.

The Almighty God, the Omniscient God, the Omnipotent God, the Omnipresent and Sovereign uncreated Creator, created this cosmos and is in full control of its affairs.  Omniscience means that He knows all things and this does not excuse us from our responsibilities, we still have to make the right choices in life.  It is true that God sees the end from the beginning because He lives in eternity, He knows that a man born in sin that continues to sin will end up eternally separated from Him but He has put in place signs and warnings that would make man make informed decisions, He stepped out of eternity and took up flesh and blood and went to Calvarly so that He can continue to live His life in us who receive Him as our Personal Saviour and Lord.  This is where He has intervened to stop the rot and for God the Father to have allowed the suffering and death of His Son so as to give us eternal life and freedom from sin and death must not be taken forgranted.  It is only after we have appropriated this gift of God in our lives that we can proceed to tackle other reasons for suffering and misery as listed below until we are separated from this sinful body to be with the Lord. 

Scriptures and experience tell us that trials and suffering can come from three sources -

[list]
[li]Our disobedience to the commandment of God (i.e. as a result of sin), [/li]
[/list]
[list]
[li]Permission by God without any iniquity on the part of man (Job’s experience)[/li]
[/list] 
[list]
[li]As a result of satanic oppression (John 10:10).[/li]
[/list]

It is, however, surprising that of all these causes of calamities, it is the one by Satan that is the easiest to handle.  This is only if we make use of the provision that Jesus gave us on the cross and to daily examine ourselves if Christ is still in us.

"Behold, the LORD's hand is not shortened, that it cannot save; neither His ear heavy, that it cannot hear: But your iniquities have separated between you and your God, and your sins have hid his face from you, that He will not hear." -- Isaiah 59:1-2

Many years ago, a man jumped off a high bridge in an effort to commit suicide. This is a case of a man who lived to tell the story but in the process broke his backbone and became physically challenged as he had to use the wheelchair to move around. His attempt to take his life caused a big deal of distress, to those in control of the bridge and his loved ones. The Authorities wanted to press charges against him but they couldn't since this was the city's first suicide attempt, they had no law forbidding such an act. He therefore got away with the law of man, but still suffered the painful consequences of breaking the law of gravity.

In the same way, every person in Adam still sinned and therefore suffered the consequences of breaking the then unwritten Moral Law, that says "the soul that sins, it shall die" (Ezek 18:4 The Evidence Bible). Death reigned as king, with a dominion from Adam to Moses. They didn't partake from the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil as Adam did but they still sinned against God.

The dilemma here is that we are like a child whose insatiable appetite for chocolate has caused his face to break out with ugly acnes. He looks in the mirror and does not like what he sees but instead of giving up the chocolate, he continues to console himself by stuffing more chocolate into his mouth. We can see that the source of his pleasure is actually the cause of his suffering.

The whole face of the earth is full of ugly sores of suffering which brings unspeakable pain. But instead of believing God's explanation and asking Him to pardon us and change our appetite, we run deeper into sin's sweet embrace where we find solace in temporal pleasures, thus intensifying our pain, both in this life and in the life to come.

Pastor AIO:

does an omniscient God need to test people. Tests are for human beings, teachers who need to know how much their pupils have learnt, whether or not to pass them on to the next grade, whether or not they are ready for the world of employment. God, being omniscient, doesn't need tests, he already knows whether or not we'll pass, he knows what we are made of.

Did God test job in order to prove to himself that Job was faithful, or did he test Job in order to prove to the adversary (Satan) that he was faithful?

This is incredible.

Since we believe God is our father cant a father examine his child? When jesus was weary he said if it were possible the cup should pass over him. But at the end christ said 'let thy will be done God'

What we have in Philippians 2 is similar to a test

6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:
8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.

---

If jesus had failed would he have gotten the below reward

9 Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:
10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of [things] in heaven, and [things] in earth, and [things] under the earth;
11 And [that] every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ [is] Lord, to the glory of God the Father.



Job passed through same and the bible tells us that the latter part was blessed than the former

I repeat that neither the omniscience of God nor the freewill of Man are biblically based concepts so olladebubu and jesu can blow as much hot air as they want but they are just regurgitating unbiblical dogma that they have been brain-washed with. Olabubu especially comes out with posts that are neither biblical nor commonsensical.

A father that examines his child is doing so in order to find out something that he doesn't already know about the child. An omniscient being has no need to make any examination.

Whether or not the trial of jesus was similar to a test or not is not something I want to argue about. the fact remains that it was not a test. Maybe similar, but not a test. So I don't see what relevance it has to this issue of whether or not God tests human beings.
Stop twisting the bible to support your twisted notions.

similar ko, simi dele ni.

davidylan:

I think the OP (i may be wrong) is in the category of those who have already made up their minds. i.e. - God "allows" suffering so automatically He either doesnt exist, does not care about man or is a wicked tyrant.

Its funny that when it comes to "suffering", the atheist is quick to pull up the Job issue. He/she is only too happy to frame it as a meaningless battle over the egos of mythical "gods" who do not care about the consequences on poor Job. But a quick read of the book of Job enlightens us to the fact that Job was a very close confidante of God. Would God then be wrong to set him an exam to prove him?

I can see the NL spirit setting in. One thing we all know for sure is that changing one's beliefs is much more than philosophical discussions or smart NL posts. Since we know that, why dont we see this as a way of seeing from the other person's perspective which is HONESTLY the aim of this thread. So i refuse to be drawn into the US vs THEM thing which this may lead to.

The truth is that no belief system has a full diagnosis for suffering but we all can alleviate it to some extent hence we are not looking for a full diagnosis on the thing but rather how christianity views/adopts/intends to solve it. Its not a God-bashing or belief-bashing thread. Okay uncle david?  

Except we want to either deceive ourselves or have not read Job very well. The book of Job is one that calls for some serious analysis(contrary to shallow arguments that will follow here soon). The book starts with the claim that Job was a righteous man(which is a strong title in the bible) and God later brags to the adversary about how such an upright man Job is and the adversary challenges God that he is upright because he is richly blessed, if his wealthy possessions get taken away from him, he'll despise God. So after the "torment but dont kill him" agreement, Job does not curse God, he starts mourning:
Job 1:20

Job 1:22 further assures that Job did not sin or charge God with any offence. After plenty plenty afflictions, his wife tells him to curse God and end it quick(die) but refuses with a rather philosophical answer:

But he said unto her, Thou speakest as one of the foolish women speaketh. What? shall we receive good at the hand of God, and shall we not receive evil? In all this did not Job sin with his lips. Job 2:10.

As an observant reader bible reader with support from other brilliant scholarly works, am intrigued in the part when Job is visited by his 3 friends and gentle Job became an Oshiomole/Gani- protester   and this time due to Job kinda blackmailing God " i have not done anything wrong, how come you're screwing me up like this. . .sort of" and God changes the rules. By changing the rules, i mean God humiliated Job telling him that i dont have to give you a reason why am making you suffer, i created the world, am almighty and all those superior stuffs. This to me indicates(even though we may be carried away with the prose/poetry of the book) that suffering is something mystical. First for Job, it was a test of faithfulness and later something his mere mind cannot grasp any longer.

Enough story, after all the trials and tribulations God restores Job, showing him sympathy Job 42:11. The part I want my christian folks to explain to me about Job is the IMO, the fuzzy idea of replacing ten children with another ten children. Am only human, the idea does not really sit well with me. I doubt if anyone feels comfortable with it as well.

Without getting obsessed with Job as davidylan has falsely guessed(as if Job's story is not intriguing to christians alike), there are other issues to be raised on suffering alongside its sequel of redemption which I'll pose later, but till then, lets hear you.

@tudor, you're welcome jare. There's still more from where that came from. Keep you fingers crossed.  

noetic16:

This is what God does and calls your FREE WILL. . .this process is called ut trial . . . .meanwhile He sends noetic to you to teach u about repentance. The ultimate choice u make is what determines your fate. . . .its has nothing to do with the omniscient of God but the free will of man.

Small question noetic; Will there be free will in heaven?
Do angels have free will too?

Pastor AIO:

A father that examines his child is doing so in order to find out something that he doesn't already know about the child.  An omniscient being has no need to make any examination.  

Thank you sir! Why would you test for something you already have the results or worse still can alter the results? I ask you this jesus.

Remember, he didn’t do anything to deserve this treatment. He actually was innocent, as God himself acknowledges. God did this to him in order to win a bet with the Satan. This is obviously a God above, beyond, and not subject to human standards.

Pastor AIO:

does an omniscient God need to test people. Tests are for human beings, teachers who need to know how much their pupils have learnt, whether or not to pass them on to the next grade, whether or not they are ready for the world of employment. God, being omniscient, doesn't need tests, he already knows whether or not we'll pass, he knows what we are made of.

Did God test job in order to prove to himself that Job was faithful, or did he test Job in order to prove to the adversary (Satan) that he was faithful?

^^^Or did Job need the test in order to further develop or mature in his walk with God?
An analogy would be: to a fetus being born, the birth event is stressful and fraught with difficulty and traumatic, but at the end he emerges into a new world - a child is born! The fetus does not know why it has to leave the safety and cocoon of his mother's womb; all his needs are met there, but the parents know that that is not the full picture, the fetus needs to emerge in order to fulfill his potential as a child or it will die.
Or consider the butterfly emerging from the chrysalis: it is a struggle. If you being the compassionate super-being (from the butterfly's perspective) decide to lend a hand and ease it's passage then you have doomed that butterfly to flopping around with useless wings, for it is the struggle to emerge from the chrysalis that completes the development of the butterfly's wings and allows to float so beautifully in the air.