this kinds of assumptions are not based on solid proof.

. Anybody can die any time and under any cirumstance. It has nothing to do with percieving urself as beign good or bad

the dog that will get lost will never hear the hunters whistle

Hey Nferyn ,


Can you give me one instance where atheism requires dogmatic faith? I know of none.

We're all in this argument together aren't we? And the fact you "believe" in your arguments proves something. Athiesm may be the antithesis of belief as we know it, but it is a belief in non-belief, and does have that human drive to prove to others, whenever possible that this belief in non-belief, is the only way to go. It's really not much different than any other religion in attitude, except that it is a free-thinking one, with no shackles or pressure. Christians, muslims, Judiasts etc try to bring out the "evil" in athiesm, as does athiesm in trying to show the ignorance in conventional religion. Some athiests I know of were brought up in agnostic or athiestic homes (as in any other religion) , thereby fueling their belief. I don't know, that's how I see it. 

All christians, (whether they like to admit it or not), have entertained the possibility of God's non-existence, as am sure, you have entertained the possibility of his existence. But our contrasting convictions have a better stronghold. No one has an absolute proof of God's non-existence, despite what we see. We haven't even used any of our devises to leave the solar system yet. Nor have we dug below 1% of the earth in which we live in. All our findings (in the physics realm) have been based on doppler effects and theories, and since, as of now everything seems to correlate, we are confident in it. Also, (although I don't see it), there might be the possibility that God does not exist because the physicality of it all seems to lean towards that direction, that all we see is all we get, right?

This is paragraph going to show my bias, but, as all religions (as far as I know) believe in the non-physical presence of God or gods, and anti-religions believe in proof, there's not going to be any resolution based on evidence. you're going to look for it and not find it. I've seen strange unexplained stuff that will make you laugh, and even if you saw a ghost that told you about God, you'll dismiss it as a hallucination. It's all faith. Even if there is no God, I think we should all live as if there is one. I still don't see the pleasure of living life without the presence (or, in your eyes, supposition) of God all around. It's pretty depressing thinking we're all just a bunch of advanced egg+sperm/atom+molecue beings that just came by chance when our parents performed the necessary act of reproduction by introducing one body part to the other as a part of a physical mechanism, with no purpose or meaning to life, only to end up dying and rotting into nothingness whenever some phyisical reaction collides with us, and that it all ends there. Or that we wouldn't really leave a legacy because in five million years the sun will darken and become a brown star and the earth will freeze out, and tada! the earth and human love and show is all over, that's all folks! If so, there's no point in restraint. We can all live like animals do, do whatever pleases us and not care at all: we'll all vanish to non-existence anyways. If that is our truth, I prefer to live under an illusion. No offence, I think that the root of atheism is rebellion and pressure and the desire to break free. Most athiests are this way because the church/mosque/synagouge/shrine had infuriated them or their parents in one way or another. There is some grudge somewhere. I really see nothing else at all. I'm not proud of what christians have done in the past: catholics and the inquisition, crusades, and protestants with slavery and witch hunts, because these were not the true foundations of holiness. Christ would not have entertained any of this: he sat with sinners and prostitutes and laughed and joked with them. Being good and showing love to others in God, and being a fanatic are two different things. We love (tough love, just love, just plain old love) and leave the rest to God. And believe you me, this world needs a lot of that right now. No, I don't want to convince or change you. But I think you might want to consider the rationality in the irrationality of the other side. Pick a scriptural book, anyone (bible, torah, zohah, koran etc) , or all of them, and read them without devising arguments and trying to tear them apart. Don't even read them metaphorically. Read them as a coherent whole and as a trustworthy text, no matter how hard it is. Look for sanity in the insane, then you just might understand.

Hell, I might even win you over sometime. I think I like you , and I hope we'll talk some more soon. And no, you didn't sound like you were mocking christianity or whatever, so you don't need to apologise. (gosh, I sound like some *let's kiss and make up* Barney the dinosaur guy ) Later.

pls where r u getting all dis from

@Nnenna1
Thanks for your wel thought out response. I currently do not have the time to answer in detail and your posts certainly deserves a well thought out detailed response.
You seem to be a person person from whom it is worth learning about your spirituality. I look forward to our future online encounters

PS: are you a physicist?

nicetohave:

Please KAG, which is which? are you saying these references are not true, or they are unethical? if you say they are unethical what makes them so?

I'm saying, if accepted as historical truths, then they are testament to an unusually short-sighted, genocidal, and sometimes malevolent deity. The acts I mentioned are unethical, because of the whole murder and mass genocide can be deemed to be wrong.

Pat Robertson statement is a personal opinion, the article reads "suggests" now if that is true or not i don't know, i am not in the habit of supporting unsubstantiated comments, so i wont defend that, but we'll focus on the cited bible references..........shall we?

Despite the fact he claims to be a servant of YHVH, and often uses biblical verses to support his stances? In any case, you are right, let's focus on the biblical attrocities.

Do you believe that everyone will die?
Do you believe that there is no given time for death as there is no assurance if you will live for a day or 100 years?
Have you considered that I may die right after typing this document, will you attribute it to this? Please see if there are any posts from me later this afternoon.

That is not mocking God, believers die young and so do unbelievers. My Pastor this afternoon made a joke about Jesus, is he an unbeliever? Let me share the joke for a moment and its probably those that live abroad that will get it.

It was a tale about the kings that sought Jesus after visiting with King Herod and were led to a Manger guided by a Star. He’s joke was that they were the first OnStar customers (http://www.onstar.com/us_english/jsp/index.jsp).

Here’s another point of view on the same people you quoted.

The Ballad of John and Jesus (search it)
Two new books on John Lennon claim that the ex-Beatle experienced a brief period as a born-again Christian during the 1970s. While living the life of a virtual recluse in New York's Dakota Building, Lennon became an avid viewer of American TV evangelists and, at some point during 1977, declared that he had been saved.

TANCREDO NEVES belonged to the Christian Democratic Party. Do you think he knew what Christian meant?

Quoting Caz....
Hell is here. Our minds are hell. And this thing about "hell is other people" I don’t know… For me, who depend a lot on friends, on tenderness from others, I don’t see life as being against someone. It can be naive of me. This vision of heaven and hell: I don’t see hell as a bad thing and heaven as good. Heaven might be really boring and hell a fun place. Actually, the picture we have of hell is always one where we place the devil, people having sex, orgies. Hell is a carnival ball at the Monte Líbano club.

I finally defined what my role is in this big world. It’s to pass my energy on to people. It’s to learn and in each job I do, in each record I make, be able to pass on my conquests. I conquered life a year ago and I want to pass this on to others. It’s a kind of Christian thing. You know, you pass on all the love you kept and people love it.

MARILYN MONROE, died of the Demons that possessed her.

BON SCOTT could not have considered hell as an option if Heaven was not the alternative.

CAMPINAS/SP IN 2005 – You tell this joke everday about the third person driving the car.

Seriously these guys were not mocking God, deeper in them, they knew of his existence and acknowledged him. They just acted tough like most people that break the commandments each day. By the way that includes me.

Luvly and brillant analysis

A well written and well thought out post, I know it wasn't addressed to me, but there are some parts that seem questionable.

Nnenna1:

Hey Nferyn ,

We're all in this argument together aren't we? And the fact you "believe" in your arguments proves something. Athiesm may be the antithesis of belief as we know it, but it is a belief in non-belief, and does have that human drive to prove to others, whenever possible that this belief in non-belief, is the only way to go.

I'll have to disagree with the above, yes it is the nature of many, to try to prove something, however ther are many atheists who just have no belief in a deity, in much the same way many have no belief in leprechauns. They don't have belief in the non-belief of leprechauns, they just lack a belief in their existence.

It's really not much different than any other religion in attitude, except that it is a free-thinking one, with no shackles or pressure. Christians, muslims, Judiasts etc try to bring out the "evil" in athiesm, as does athiesm in trying to show the ignorance in conventional religion. Some athiests I know of were brought up in agnostic or athiestic homes (as in any other religion) , thereby fueling their belief. I don't know, that's how I see it.

Actually, many atheists don't try to show ignorance in conventional religion, in fact many are apathetic to religion in general, until the acts of the religious forces them into debating the validity of religion.

All christians, (whether they like to admit it or not), have entertained the possibility of God's non-existence, as am sure, you have entertained the possibility of his existence. But our contrasting convictions have a better stronghold. No one has an absolute proof of God's non-existence, despite what we see. We haven't even used any of our devises to leave the solar system yet. Nor have we dug below 1% of the earth in which we live in. All our findings (in the physics realm) have been based on doppler effects and theories, and since, as of now everything seems to correlate, we are confident in it. Also, (although I don't see it), there might be the possibility that God does not exist because the physicality of it all seems to lean towards that direction, that all we see is all we get, right?

I agree wholeheartedly.

This is paragraph going to show my bias, but, as all religions (as far as I know) believe in the non-physical presence of God or gods, and anti-religions believe in proof, there's not going to be any resolution based on evidence. you're going to look for it and not find it. I've seen strange unexplained stuff that will make you laugh, and even if you saw a ghost that told you about God, you'll dismiss it as a hallucination. It's all faith. Even if there is no God, I think we should all live as if there is one. I still don't see the pleasure of living life without the presence (or, in your eyes, supposition) of God all around. It's pretty depressing thinking we're all just a bunch of advanced egg+sperm/atom+molecue beings that just came by chance when our parents performed the necessary act of reproduction by introducing one body part to the other as a part of a physical mechanism, with no purpose or meaning to life, only to end up dying and rotting into nothingness whenever some phyisical reaction collides with us, and that it all ends there. Or that we wouldn't really leave a legacy because in five million years the sun will darken and become a brown star and the earth will freeze out, and tada! the earth and human love and show is all over, that's all folks! If so, there's no point in restraint. We can all live like animals do, do whatever pleases us and not care at all: we'll all vanish to non-existence anyways. If that is our truth, I prefer to live under an illusion.

I see your point, reality is often a harsh pill to sawllow. However, despite assertations to the contrary, the lives of many atheists do have purposes, the purposes they design for themselves. Many atheists have come to the conclusion that life is only meaningless if you make it meaningles. With no need for an unforseen purpose created by an invisible man in the sky, many atheists adopt moral codes in line with empathy and the accepted laws of the goverment. Sure we can all live as animals, but why do that?

No offence, I think that the root of atheism is rebellion and pressure and the desire to break free. Most athiests are this way because the church/mosque/synagouge/shrine had infuriated them or their parents in one way or another. There is some grudge somewhere.

I disagree very strongly with your premise. Why is it hard to accept that many atheists have rejected religion because they found it wanting? on another tangent, would you accept that a former atheist/ agnostic turned christian, is only rebelling etc.?

I really see nothing else at all. I'm not proud of what christians have done in the past: catholics and the inquisition, crusades, and protestants with slavery and witch hunts, because these were not the true foundations of holiness. Christ would not have entertained any of this: he sat with sinners and prostitutes and laughed and joked with them. Being good and showing love to others in God, and being a fanatic are two different things. We love (tough love, just love, just plain old love) and leave the rest to God. And believe you me, this world needs a lot of that right now. No, I don't want to convince or change you. But I think you might want to consider the rationality in the irrationality of the other side. Pick a scriptural book, anyone (bible, torah, zohah, koran etc) , or all of them, and read them without devising arguments and trying to tear them apart. Don't even read them metaphorically. Read them as a coherent whole and as a trustworthy text, no matter how hard it is. Look for sanity in the insane, then you just might understand.

...and if after reading the/a religious text, the lack of belief in a deity still exists, what then?

Hey KAG

Seems you're a lady as well as I, awesome! . I'll be offline in a bit, and I'll try to be brief (I hope, although I never get to be brief). Here's what you said:

I'll have to disagree with the above, yes it is the nature of many, to try to prove something, however ther are many atheists who just have no belief in a deity, in much the same way many have no belief in leprechauns. They don't have belief in the non-belief of leprechauns, they just lack a belief in their existence.

It is the nature of all religious and anti-religious sects to try and prove their way as right sometimes, and most of the time they're really just as relaxed as athiests. I know a lot of luke-warm christians and the not-so-devout and open-minded ones who can be as lax and apathetic as some of the athiests you propose. Many religious sects don't even consider their religion a religion, but a proper way of life, just as you athiests see it from your point of view. I don't like to use analogies, and you can take this with a gain of salt, but:

If I were an alien from another planet, and was in classroom studying the ways of earth, do you think athiesm, or any other religion and anti-religion would be singled out as special? They would be all BELIEF SYSTEMS. Athiesm is not a religion, and is the antithesis of conventional belief, that much I agree, but it is a lifestyle as well as every other one, whether athiests agree with me or not (Yes, I know, apathy, some don't care), and the root of athiesm is the belief of God's non-existece. Would you argue that I'm wrong, that athiests believe that there is no God? Seeing that it is true, and the word "Believe" is in the picture (Although it can be substituted often for other things), your argument doesn't make any sense. There different kinds and types of christians, different kinds and types of athiests, but what they (generally) think is right is always the same within their sect. You're thinking of this from an athiestic perspective: generalize everything, look at demographics of belief (some religion, even), and you'd see atheism, agnosticism, secular humanism and so on in the mix. I don't know, but it's part of being human: a belief, disbelief, mis-belief, unbelief, is a still a belief: this is a part of humanity and we'll never escape it. Rational minded people lack a belief in leprechauns existence, in other words, they believe that leprechauns don't exist--even though they don't think of it most of the time. Belief has been portrayed as an imprisoning word and this can be true, yes...but really, what would you and I do if we see a real leprechaun on national television? Wouldn't we want to challenge that, or at least, be shocked or surprised by it? We didn't really care or think about it in the first place, did we? But we can have the capacity to laugh it off as nonsensical or challenge it, or be somewhat relieved if it were found to be false. See what I mean?

I see your point, reality is often a harsh pill to sawllow. However, despite assertations to the contrary, the lives of many atheists do have purposes, the purposes they design for themselves. Many atheists have come to the conclusion that life is only meaningless if you make it meaningles. With no need for an unforseen purpose created by an invisible man in the sky, many atheists adopt moral codes in line with empathy and the accepted laws of the goverment. Sure we can all live as animals, but why do that?

As I said before, I'm not trying to convince anyone to follow my train of thought. Everyone is entitled to their convictions of what reality is. My reality is quite different from yours, but to each of us, our perceptions seem very well true. It's good to know that you are living with accordance with the law, and it shows that you have a conscience for things (at least, I hope so), even though words like "conscience" might be sound naive to you. By this, I mean that if there were no laws, you still wouldn't do the things you are not supposed to do. It is even nicer to know that you share the idea of the uselessness of not living with a purpose, no matter the reasons behind them. Good! Very nice, I think I like you. I also hope you help others in any way you can.


I disagree very strongly with your premise. Why is it hard to accept that many atheists have rejected religion because they found it wanting? on another tangent, would you accept that a former atheist/ agnostic turned christian, is only rebelling etc.?

I don't know if just finding something "wanting" (depending on what you interprete as the meaning of wanting regarding this) is enough for you to leave it. There may be some detachment to athiesm, but I still hold my ground. There is not one athiest that I know of that hasn't defended his stance by not resorting to showing "badness" of religion at least once, particulary the one religion closest to him or her. I will concede that an agnostic can be so based on "wanting" alone, but athiesm is an end of the spectrum. I'm still not convinced about this. All the athiests I know have had some distant quibble with religion or God Himself (whether it be the individual or his/her influencial family member or relative),  even if they don't want to admit it and say that they "simply didn't get it" it shows in how they act. The history of athiesm hasn't been the one of "find contradiction and leave." Why do die-hard athiests want proof? if we got the answers to our prayers all the time, would there be athiesm? The so called "logic" of athiesm is a somewhat recent thing, just beginning at the renaissance period (funny, isn't it?) . It's what I see. You can give up all kinds of religion, but saying that God doesn't exist, especially as there is a general agreement that there is no absolute proof for his non-existence, goes down to something other than than finding religion "wanting" and being cynical. Athiesm isn't cynical, it is just as resolute as religion is, no matter how non-religious it is. I don't know, as I keep on saying, this is just how I see it, so forgive me if I sound biased. Likewise, leaving athiesm to join a religion also, isn't just finding one "satisfactory," it is knowing, or the feeling of knowing, that it is what would make him or her happy as a spiritual person, finding athiem wrong for him or her, and in a way, rebelling against it. Rebellion is not just red-faced people violently holding placards. It can be about the smallest thing, in the smallest way, it can mean giving up and finding something invalid and very unfruitful, like loving a husband or even a parent.  Leaving one religion and going to the other isn't as easy as you make it seem. I doubt it if you could be a muslim just because you finally find it satisfactory or not wanting.


...and if after reading the/a religious text, the lack of belief in a deity still exists, what then?

This is a tough one, we're both looking at this from our points of view, and again, you may still not agree with me, but here goes: It can be very imprisoning to think like this. I've explored athiesm and it hasn't worked for me, you might still not believe, but it doesn't deter you from giving it a try to look beyond yourself and see others, if only for a moment. Even though I haven't been an athiest, and haven't been an agnostic for long, I can relate to them, to an extent. My eyes are open, and can I take in other ideas because, to an extent, I can see through other points of view, especially during arguments

As I said, reading a scriptural text might not make you believe in God, but it will give you an appreciation deeper than the ones expressed in literature classes. That's my point, look for the sane in the insane. Don't judge or be like "what if, or if?" try and see through their perspectives. That's all. We both sound like too different people: you overly exact and to the point, me, psuedo-philosphical and indirect, but looking at the other side can change you, if only a little.

I just, just, just might win you over too. Man, I've been typing in one long flurry: so much for being brief . Later.

PS (To Nferyn): No, I'm no physicist (I wish!), I'm actually an English major in my second year in college, who happens to enjoy literature and physics. People don't get it either.

ok. crazy arguments up in here

i'm not entirely sure what atheists believe in (i'm guessing science) but i just wanna lay down my views on the whole issue.

Well, i believe God has to exist. there has to something a reason that explains how this world came about and don't tell me it was a chemical reaction or some big bang theory some old geek imagined. well, science may have the answer but science is far from answering the question about "soul" or "being" - the very element that makes us who we are.

i remember when i was like 11, lying down, about to doze off and then i started thinking and asking myself these questions:
why am i here?
why am i in this body
why am i on earth?
was i destined to exist?
what if my parents never met? would i still exist?
if i was destined to exist, would i have had a different container (i could've been american or an aborigin )

somehow, i believe we are all destined to exist. the human being is too complex enough not to believe there's isn't some nature behind our existence.

if an alien came to earth and he had to pick a religion, he'd be mighty confused. each religion strongly believes they are on the right path to eternal happiness. so if there's a truth, which is it? i believe this is major point that fuels the atheist's belief (or lack of belief, if u may say).

but i know one thing for sure, and that is there exists a supernatural being!

Couldn't sleep, so I'll give it a try anyway.

Nnenna1:

Hey Nferyn ,


Can you give me one instance where atheism requires dogmatic faith? I know of none.

We're all in this argument together aren't we? And the fact you "believe" in your arguments proves something. Athiesm may be the antithesis of belief as we know it, but it is a belief in non-belief, and does have that human drive to prove to others, whenever possible that this belief in non-belief, is the only way to go. It's really not much different than any other religion in attitude, except that it is a free-thinking one, with no shackles or pressure. Christians, muslims, Judiasts etc try to bring out the "evil" in athiesm, as does athiesm in trying to show the ignorance in conventional religion. Some athiests I know of were brought up in agnostic or athiestic homes (as in any other religion) , thereby fueling their belief. I don't know, that's how I see it.

To me, there's a huge difference between faith and belief. If you believe something, you accept it to be true. That acceptance can be based on many thing: evidence, a conviction, proof, authority, ...
Faith is a specific kind of belief, it is a belief without evidence, a belief based on acceptance of authority, not on questioning. You can have faith in something, even after researching your belief, but ultimately, the source remains acceptance. You may say that it is the antithesis of belief, but it really isn't. If you are atheist, you just lack the belief in a supreme being. There are implicit atheists who never consciously entertained the idea of a supreme being - I was such an atheist untill I got in contact with theists later on. This contact has changed the nature of my atheism into an explicit atheism, because I have seriously thought about the possibility of a supreme being existing and after doing that, I have dismissed that possibility for several reasons.

Anyway, I still see nothing dogmatic in my beliefs.

Nnenna1:

All christians, (whether they like to admit it or not), have entertained the possibility of God's non-existence, as am sure, you have entertained the possibility of his existence. But our contrasting convictions have a better stronghold. No one has an absolute proof of God's non-existence, despite what we see.

Here's where most forms of theism break down. The moment you start thinking about God, you start thinking about his nature. By thinking about his nature, you assign properties to God. The moment you assign properties to God, you investigate whether or not they can be true. The properties of the monotheistic God of Christianity, Islam and Judaism include omniscience, omnipotence and omnibenevolence. These properties contradict the physical reality of evil in the world and make free will impossible by definition. This God cannot exist, unless these properties are different in nature than what our understanding of them is. In that case, God is entirely unknowable and all attempts to say anything about the nature or intentions of God become futile.

Nnenna1:

We haven't even used any of our devises to leave the solar system yet. Nor have we dug below 1% of the earth in which we live in. All our findings (in the physics realm) have been based on doppler effects and theories, and since, as of now everything seems to correlate, we are confident in it. Also, (although I don't see it), there might be the possibility that God does not exist because the physicality of it all seems to lean towards that direction, that all we see is all we get, right?

I don't really understand what you're trying to say here.

Nnenna1:

This is paragraph going to show my bias, but, as all religions (as far as I know) believe in the non-physical presence of God or gods, and anti-religions believe in proof, there's not going to be any resolution based on evidence. you're going to look for it and not find it. I've seen strange unexplained stuff that will make you laugh, and even if you saw a ghost that told you about God, you'll dismiss it as a hallucination. It's all faith.

Why? The moment you start describing the properties of God, you make him open for envestigation. There does not need to be any faith involved.

Nnenna1:

Even if there is no God, I think we should all live as if there is one.

Why?

Nnenna1:

I still don't see the pleasure of living life without the presence (or, in your eyes, supposition) of God all around. It's pretty depressing thinking we're all just a bunch of advanced egg+sperm/atom+molecue beings that just came by chance when our parents performed the necessary act of reproduction by introducing one body part to the other as a part of a physical mechanism, with no purpose or meaning to life, only to end up dying and rotting into nothingness whenever some phyisical reaction collides with us, and that it all ends there.

Don't you see the wonder of our physical reality? Maybe you can read Dawkin's book Unweaving The Rainbow
(see:http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0618056734/qid=1136765599/sr=8-1/ref=sr_8_xs_ap_i1_xgl14/102-8137714-3567327?n=507846&s=books&v=glance)
Why do you need an external purpose or meaning of life? You have the freedom to make your own purpose. What's wrong with that?

Nnenna1:

Or that we wouldn't really leave a legacy because in five million years the sun will darken and become a brown star and the earth will freeze out, and tada! the earth and human love and show is all over, that's all folks! If so, there's no point in restraint.

So you know for certain that we may not have found a way to escape that faith as a human race? The knowledge of our finite existence would rather make us focus on living a fulfilling life than waiting for a reward in the hereafter. We have evolved as a social species and our happines is tightly linked to the well being of our peer group (familiy, friends, relatives, ...), so we strive for the best interest of the group and not only of ourselves as individuals. There are no religious sticks or carrots needed.

Nnenna1:

We can all live like animals do, do whatever pleases us and not care at all: we'll all vanish to non-existence anyways.

But we never would for the reason I mentioned above.

Nnenna1:

If that is our truth, I prefer to live under an illusion.

It is the bleak theist image of what an atheist truth is. Certainly not [b]the [/b]truth. Do read Dawkin's book, I'm sure you'll like it.

Nnenna1:

No offence, I think that the root of atheism is rebellion and pressure and the desire to break free. Most athiests are this way because the church/mosque/synagouge/shrine had infuriated them or their parents in one way or another. There is some grudge somewhere. I really see nothing else at all.

Again, this perception is based on your theistic frame of reference. If all you have is a hammer, all problems are going to look like nails. We, as humans, do not have the perceptive framework of bats. We cannot see with sound and bats cannot see like we can. Try to step outside of your framework and try to look at the world as if nobody had ever come up with the idea of God. If you can, you'll understand what I'm trying to get at.
I hold no grudge against beleivers, I just cannot understand them. I do have a problem though with a lot of forms of organised religion, because of the fact that the human race could use it's limited resources more wisely.

Nnenna1:

I'm not proud of what christians have done in the past: catholics and the inquisition, crusades, and protestants with slavery and witch hunts, because these were not the true foundations of holiness. Christ would not have entertained any of this: he sat with sinners and prostitutes and laughed and joked with them. Being good and showing love to others in God, and being a fanatic are two different things.

Can you say, with a high degree of certainty, that the historical figure of Jesus existed? Can you say that what has been writen down in the Bible is actually the message of Jesus? I truly admire Jesus message of love, kindness and understanding, but do I need God to be so?

Nnenna1:

We love (tough love, just love, just plain old love) and leave the rest to God. And believe you me, this world needs a lot of that right now. No, I don't want to convince or change you. But I think you might want to consider the rationality in the irrationality of the other side. Pick a scriptural book, anyone (bible, torah, zohah, koran etc) , or all of them, and read them without devising arguments and trying to tear them apart. Don't even read them metaphorically. Read them as a coherent whole and as a trustworthy text, no matter how hard it is. Look for sanity in the insane, then you just might understand.

I think this would be impossible. My knowledge is part of my being and I cannot possibly put it at the door, even if I would like to do that.

Nnenna1:

Hell, I might even win you over sometime. I think I like you , and I hope we'll talk some more soon. And no, you didn't sound like you were mocking christianity or whatever, so you don't need to apologise. (gosh, I sound like some *let's kiss and make up* Barney the dinosaur guy ) Later.

I think it's highly unlikely I could become a Christian one day. But thanks anyway for this inspiring conversation.

c0dec:

ok. crazy arguments up in here

i'm not entirely sure what atheists believe in (i'm guessing science) but i just want to lay down my views on the whole issue.

Atheists only lack the beleif in a supreme being. There is no positive belief involved. Of course most atheists believe in the value of science, but that has nothing to do with atheism.

c0dec:

Well, i believe God has to exist. there has to something a reason that explains how this world came about and don't tell me it was a chemical reaction or some big bang theory some old geek imagined. well, science may have the answer but science is far from answering the question about "soul" or "being" - the very element that makes us who we are.

The best current explanation for the existence of our universe is the Big Bang theory. If you would want to put a God at the creation of that, you would still need to explain the creator of the creator. Putting a creator as the source of everything does not solve a thing.
We currently just dont know.

c0dec:

i remember when i was like 11, lying down, about to doze off and then i started thinking and asking myself these questions:
why am i here?
why am i in this body
why am i on earth?
was i destined to exist?
what if my parents never met? would i still exist?
if i was destined to exist, would i have had a different container (i could've been american or an aborigin )

Why does there need to be a reason?
What do you mean by container (if it is physical body for your soul, you were already firmly reasoning within the theistic frame of reference)

c0dec:

somehow, i believe we are all destined to exist. the human being is too complex enough not to believe there's isn't some nature behind our existence.

This doesn't make sense. Care to explain tha statement?

c0dec:

if an alien came to earth and he had to pick a religion, he'd be mighty confused. each religion strongly believes they are on the right path to eternal happiness. so if there's a truth, which is it? i believe this is major point that fuels the atheist's belief (or lack of belief, if u may say).

You have no idea. Your belief is false.

c0dec:

but i know one thing for sure, and that is there exists a supernatural being!

And how do you know that?

Hey Guys, I really, really don't want to argue anymore, so I'll stop. Our points of view are different, and nothing can change them based on argument alone. I think it's enough for an individual to live a good life and help others to do so, no matter his convictions, I can't change the way he sees things.

The most admired people in history were thiests and athiests. I love George Elliot's books, and she was an athiest. Perceptions are different, religions are different, but what we can do now for ourselves and our children, is what matters.

I have never quoted the bible even once, because I trust that athiests know what the bible is about (although from a different perspective), and I know what side it is they are from, although it doesn't seem believable now, so I'll just be still. I can argue back again, and someone else will counter argue, and the cycle continues under the assumption that each person thinks he's right.

There's a sense of all-knowing-ness that everyone, including myself, is exhibiting right now, and that's pretty tough to shake by arguing in a cyclical way (i have a feeling that someone is even going to conter-argue everything in this post) So...I think I'm alright for now .

Yes Nferyn, you do get it, belief in God IS a matter of faith, not proof. It is our convictions that determine whatever way we follow: faith, or belief in seen things.There are many theories about Jesus (non-existence, similarity to buddha, madness, dabble in sorcery, you name it) so many that claim that are based on fact, some too convincing that I COULD leave christianity, but I don't. Why? Faith. It's like falling in love. You might not understand it, and think it some desperate way of "holding on" because of the fear of mortality, because (I think) you have never known what it is.

I think I'm going to stop arguing about God and religion finally. I have seen, and come to the conclusion, that there are some things that can never be resolved based on arguments. Take care.

Fantastic thread. Kudos to Nnenna1 and nferyn.

@Nnenna1. Faith is a choice, you're right there. However, most religions take extreme positions. OK maybe that's an extreme word (extreme) but what I'm trying to say is, they're mutually exclusive e.g. Christianity believes Jesus is the ONLY way. It's a feel-good thing to say as long as one lives a good life, one's fine, but your very choice of faith doesn't allow you say that (unless you pick and choose from the Bible and it doesnt allow that either). Only one religion can be right... or maybe they're all wrong.

[/quote]Hours later, news came by that they had been involved in a fatal accident, everyone had died, the car could not be recognized what type of car it had been, but surprisingly, the boot was intact.[quote]

I find this very contradicting and somewhat hilarious!They couldn't make out what kind of car it was yet the boot was intact?Who were the people inspecting the damaged car?absolute morons?

Layi good work.We are like hen/cock that comes to sleep in the cage at night and waiting for the owner to open the door in the morning.And when that was done, come and see them flying away without noticing the owner, forgeting that he can kill it at any time. God is a Great Artist and we are His art work. He(GOD) created us in His pleasure.whatever God likes He does with us. who are we to question Him or to argue.Brothers and sisters we can joke with any other thing BUT the things of GOD ALMIGHTY please it is not a joke at all at all or for us to show talent.Who gave you that wisdom?Is it not God thru Jesus Christ?

LAYI, dont mind these pple, u have sent ur message of warning.

it doesnt matter if u all dont believe these stories-u mustnt but he who thinks God CAN be mocked should try making statements like these and find out if u r gr8r than God or not...ur judgement may not come immediately cos different pple have various time of grace and God decides that with no apologies to anyone, God does not have to answer seun or anyone why Bimbo died. all am saying is that if u mess with God or His name, u WILL be nailed or He will allow u time to repent.

@everyone else. I dont care if these stories are real but i know about a few of them. All that matters is that the stories gave me a thought and helped me in seeing God more respectfully and being carefull about what comes out of my mouth as concerns God

Believing the stories isnt so important here. Just heed the warning not to mock God period! if u do then only He(GOD) will decide whether ur story will add up to these ones or not!

now people u all need to lighten up as for nnenna1 and nferyn till kingdom u will continue to counter each other so just leave it, belief happen to be the most delicate and toughest theory anyone can try to prove. I mean i find it ludicrous that one system of belief or faith consider others superstitions or myth, xtians believe that Jesus walked on water but consider the concept of the Krishna with six arms stupid or myth. Please someone explain to me the difference to me becos one sounds like the other, if u can believe one u shouldn't have a problem with the other. Don't get me wrong i do believe in God but that's it the rest i think is dogma.

naijababe:

now people u all need to lighten up as for nnenna1 and nferyn till kingdom u will continue to counter each other so just leave it, belief happen to be the most delicate and toughest theory anyone can try to prove. I mean i find it ludicrous that one system of belief or faith consider others superstitions or myth, xtians believe that Jesus walked on water but consider the concept of the Krishna with six arms stupid or myth. Please someone explain to me the difference to me because one sounds like the other, if u can believe one u shouldn't have a problem with the other. Don't get me wrong i do believe in God but that's it the rest i think is dogma.

You're right, naijababe. Both of them are equally silly.
But how about you? Believing in God isn't? What God and why? And where does dogma begin?

well when i say i believe in God my belief is only in the concept of a  supernatural being none of this miracle brouhaha or only people of certain faith will go to Heaven. In the words of Thomas Paine " I believe in one God and no more and i hope for happiness beyond this life. I believe in the equality of man and that religious duties consist in doing justice, loving mercy and endeavouring to make our fellow creatures happy". That my friend is all i believe really, so when i say dogma i mean stuff like pray so many times, God created Adam, Adam ate an apple, somebody rode a unicorn or is it a winged horse to heaven, Mother Theresa will go to hell because she was not a muslim or Gandhi will go to hell because he was not born-again etc  that's what i mean by dogma

Thanks Nnenna1 for this clip:
'All christians, (whether they like to admit it or not), have entertained the possibility of God's non-existence, as am sure, you have entertained the possibility of his existence. But our contrasting convictions have a better stronghold. No one has an absolute proof of God's non-existence, despite what we see. We haven't even used any of our devises to leave the solar system yet.'

Let me add that there is absolute proof of God's existence!

lifexpress:

Thanks Nnenna1 for this clip:
'All christians, (whether they like to admit it or not), have entertained the possibility of God's non-existence, as am sure, you have entertained the possibility of his existence. But our contrasting convictions have a better stronghold. No one has an absolute proof of God's non-existence, despite what we see. We haven't even used any of our devises to leave the solar system yet.'

Let me add that there is absolute proof of God's existence!

Really? Please continue.

lifexpress:

Let me add that there is absolute proof of God's existence!

I am yet to see such proof. I've been looking for it for a long time, but to no avail. If you have that proof, maybe you can present it in this thread:
https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-3833.0.html

Anyway, I was wondering how an all powerfull God, that is in full control over his creation, could be mocked at at all, unless he wants to be mocked at?

You ve just made a true statement; do not be deceived God is not mocked whatsoever a man sows, the same he shall reap.........what you call mocking God is merely heaping goods for yourself to reap.

This thread is about the possible consequences of mocking God (or maybe criticizing so-called pastors), so let's keep to the topic, thanks.

God will make a way,
Where there seems to be no way
He works in ways we cannot see
He will make a way for me
He will be my guide
Hold me closely to His side
With love and strength for each new day
He will make a way, He will make a way.

By a roadway in the wilderness, He'll lead me
And rivers in the desert will I see
Heaven and earth will fade
But His Word will still remain
He will do something new today.

God will make a way,
Where there seems to be no way
He works in ways we cannot see
He will make a way for me
He will be my guide
Hold me closely to His side
With love and strength for each new day
He will make a way, He will make a way

When God disciplines, we say he is mean, when he decide to be merciful, we complain that he is too dumb. The heart of man is desperately wicked and seeks justice in the beliefs of the way we are brought up coupled with environmental and relationship influence.

I believe in the existence of a supernatural being and he has the right to the way he does things.

How maany of u, after drawing a particular picture with a Paint program on the computer, looks at it and either delete it, or erase part of it. How many times have we looked at our computer system and decide to format it when it has virus or shud i say how many times have we scribble lines on piece of paper and then crisp it to gether and chuck it in the bin.

How i wish those little "matters" have the chance of expressing their feelings and revolting against our actions just like we do unto God, and see how we react.

I bet if they could, i will be the first to get furious and do more worse harm for questioning my authority.

GOd never think like we do, and that makes us dummies before him.

u know wat i see in this forum.....A whole lot of ignorant people..but while u are @ it plz watch what u say n how u say it cos i must say God is a merciful one but please dont abuse that priviledge cos what u say can really take u places......N for the record it really isnt about dying but where ur soul remains after death......

Thanks Viktor for your fears but forget it.
God is Love. IT loves you not because you do or do not deserve it but it's the nature of God and of you too as a child of God.
Fear of God is like a hammer used by mainline groups to retain some folks and lose a few who cannot accept IT yet because of what they do not know! The love of God is the beginning of wisdom!

omo i tire o,why people just dey take God for granted like this,well am not supriced it is said in the bible"not one in the world is righteous"
but i would say even if ur not righteous believe that there's God and his everywhere....!!!!!!!!