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The Concept Of God Is Absurd by TheArranger(m): 4:00pm On Mar 12, 2019
The creative process seems inexorably tied to needs. This process surges as a result of the need to survive, compete or for expression. (It can also happen by accident...)

An omni-x being, or God, by definition has no needs. One might argue that creating would go against his nature. From the Abrahamic standpoint, why would said beings create inferior beings to worship him?

One could attempt an argument as follows:

1. An omni-x being has no needs or reason to create anything

2. An omni-x being would simply be.

3. The universe exists.

4. Therefore, if the universe was created, the author was an entity with a need. (Or created it by accident...)

This conclusion would point to a being quite different from the omni-x God theists describe.

In fact, this omni-x God seems like a classic post hoc explanation for a reality we find difficult to explain.

What do you think?

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Re: The Concept Of God Is Absurd by budaatum: 4:24pm On Mar 12, 2019
TheArranger:


This conclusion would point to a being quite different from the omni-x God theists describe.
So, a Creator God exists after all, you just don't agree it's the described God?
Re: The Concept Of God Is Absurd by Hermes019: 4:31pm On Mar 12, 2019
budaatum:

So, a Creator God exists after all, you just don't agree it's the described God?
Exactly, I wouldn't say I am absolutely certain a creator exists,but even if it does I am convinced it is not what people portray as God

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Re: The Concept Of God Is Absurd by TheArranger(m): 4:37pm On Mar 12, 2019
Seun, Mynd44, Muttleylaff, bloodofthelamb, alBHAGDADI, bobowaja, brodalokie, 1Sharon, LordReed, budaatum, IAmSabrina, Martinez39/Martinez19, Hermes019, Ihedinobi3, Atewo400, butterflylion/butterflyleo/butterflyl1on, GoodMuyis, Dantedasz, Anas09, HardMirror, hopefullandlord, Joseph1013, CAPSLOCKED, frosbel2, shadeyinka, Dhumancanvas, felixomor, jesusjnr, MhizAngel99, malvisguy212, Akin1212, theoriginalgood, finalboss, Originakalokalo, Michellekabod1/Michellekabod2, tintingz, TATIME, Amyblessed, Mobilia, luvmijeje, JujuSugar, vaxx, Ranchhoddas, rekinomtla, shakmati, MrPRevailer, OpenYourEyes1, gensteejay, LordCenturion, Horiolah, MJBOLT, UyiIredia, johnydon22, GeneralShepherd, PastorAIO, NnennaG6, janettee, paxonel, kkins25, sonmvayina, frank317, Ishilove, HappyPagan, NPComplete, hahn, Emmanystone, Bacteriologist, Zither, GreatResearcher & all other NL religion section denizens

Apologies if i eviscerated your moniker. I basically did copypaste from multiple threads.
Re: The Concept Of God Is Absurd by ThothHermes: 4:38pm On Mar 12, 2019
Whoever said God has to be omni-x

1 Like

Re: The Concept Of God Is Absurd by TheArranger(m): 4:41pm On Mar 12, 2019
ThothHermes:
Whoever said God has to be omni-x
Isn't that how the gods of islam & christianity are described?
Re: The Concept Of God Is Absurd by budaatum: 4:47pm On Mar 12, 2019
Hermes019:

Exactly, I wouldn't say I am absolutely certain a creator exists,but even if it does I am convinced it is not what people portray as God
I agree. We create images in our puny heads and call it God despite the advice not to create images nor bow to worship them then we claim we are doing the will of God.

What a bunch of amusing people we are.
Re: The Concept Of God Is Absurd by MuttleyLaff: 5:12pm On Mar 12, 2019
TheArranger:
The creative process seems inexorably tied to needs. This process surges as a result of the need to survive, compete or for expression. (It can also happen by accident...)

An omni-x being, or God, by definition has no needs. One might argue that creating would go against his nature. From the Abrahamic standpoint, why would said beings create inferior beings to worship him?

One could attempt an argument as follows:

1. An omni-x being has no needs or reason to create anything

2. An omni-x being would simply be.

3. The universe exists.

4. Therefore, if the universe was created, the author was an entity with a need. (Or created it by accident...)

This conclusion would point to a being quite different from the omni-x God theists describe.

In fact, this omni-x God seems like a classic post hoc explanation for a reality we find difficult to explain.

What do you think?

ThothHermes:
Whoever said God has to be omni-x
No one is doubting whether or not God is: Spirit, and/or the Word, Jesus Christ

The fact and truth, that I know is difficult for many, to understand, is that, God, as well, is: I AM

''I AM that I AM'', ''I SHALL BE THAT I SHALL'' or ''I WILL BE THAT I BE'' are expressive phrase
God will be what God needs to be. We find out what God was yesterday, we keep knowing Him every moment and day
He is new every morning, He is new tomorrow

Thats why, God in Exodus 3:14, said to Moses:
"I AM WHO I AM.
This is what you are to say to the Israelites: 'I AM has sent me to you."

Essentially means, I will become whatsoever I may become.

God therefore, is, "not-known-number" of person
God, then, is, x-person
and God, in effect is, ∞-persons, as in, infinite or infinity.

God is someone without any bound, without limit, without an end.
God is someone bigger and larger than any specified number, even three or trinity.

2 Likes

Re: The Concept Of God Is Absurd by ThothHermes: 5:18pm On Mar 12, 2019
TheArranger:

Isn't that how the gods of islam & christianity are described?
Described by whom?
Can you quote from their scriptures or are you just saying what you've heard?
Re: The Concept Of God Is Absurd by TheArranger(m): 5:31pm On Mar 12, 2019
ThothHermes:
Described by whom?
Can you quote from their scriptures or are you just saying what you've heard?

MuttleyLaff:


God therefore, is, "not-known-number" of person
God, then, is, x-person
and God, in effect is, ∞-persons, as in, infinite or infinity.

God is someone without any bound, without limit, without an end.
God is someone bigger and larger than any specified number, even three or trinity.
@ThothHermes
As MuttleyLaff put it, God as an omni-x being is infinite in nature.
A lot of bible verses also support this assertion. I'm sure you know this.
Re: The Concept Of God Is Absurd by MuttleyLaff: 5:32pm On Mar 12, 2019
ThothHermes:
Described by whom?
Can you quote from their scriptures or are you just saying what you've heard?
"God said to Moses, "I AM WHO I AM. This is what you are to say to the Israelites: 'I AM has sent me to you."
- Exodus 3:14

2 Likes

Re: The Concept Of God Is Absurd by ThothHermes: 5:38pm On Mar 12, 2019
MuttleyLaff:
"God said to Moses, "I AM WHO I AM. This is what you are to say to the Israelites: 'I AM has sent me to you."
- Exodus 3:14
Anyone can say this. How does it translate to omni-xness?
Re: The Concept Of God Is Absurd by ThothHermes: 5:41pm On Mar 12, 2019
TheArranger:



@ThothHermes
As MuttleyLaff put it, God as an omni-x being is infinite in nature.
A lot of bible verses also support this assertion. I'm sure you know this.
I don't. Why don't you define omni-xness and show verses that show God to fit y our definition.
Re: The Concept Of God Is Absurd by Atewo400(m): 5:41pm On Mar 12, 2019
Now going by our conventions definition are derived from characteristics
The characteristics ascribed to Tue abrahamic God has flaws and is being debunked on a daily basis with happenings around us

now on the conventional definition of God am an àtheist and am sure the dude does not exist

but saying there is a creator of the universe and adding nothing to it on that stance am an agnostic Am not sure

but saying u are certain that there is a creator of the universe because nothing can exist on it own then also be ready to say that There must be a creator of the the creator which is absurd so to my own rational thinking there might be a creator and there might be none
Re: The Concept Of God Is Absurd by MuttleyLaff: 5:43pm On Mar 12, 2019
ThothHermes:
Anyone can say this. How does it translate to omni-xness?
Can you be whatever you want to be?
It's easier said than done, isn't it? It is only God that can hand pounding chest say: "I shall be that I shall be"
Xness means no limit, no number, means unknowable scope etcetera
Re: The Concept Of God Is Absurd by TheArranger(m): 5:49pm On Mar 12, 2019
.
Re: The Concept Of God Is Absurd by TheArranger(m): 5:51pm On Mar 12, 2019
ThothHermes:
I don't. Why don't you define omni-xness and show verses that show God to fit y our definition.
SMH
Based on my understanding of the word omni, it means something that is unrestricted, without limits, infinite....

As for the bible verses, here, knock yourself out
Bible verses about God's omnipotence: https://www.openbible.info/topics/gods_omnipotence
Bible verses about God's omniscience: https://www.openbible.info/topics/omniscience
Bible verses about God's omnipresence: https://www.openbible.info/topics/omnipresence
Bible verses about God's omnibenevolence: https://www.openbible.info/topics/omnibenevolence

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Re: The Concept Of God Is Absurd by Zither(m): 6:31pm On Mar 12, 2019
TheArranger, you did not factor the will of such being into your premises? If God had a need He wouldn't be self-sufficient now, would He?

As a being, He has a will which He manifests in creation. It is easy to confuse the manifestation of will with the satisfaction of need. The manifestation of His will is an expression of His sovereignty, greatness and individuality evidenced by His creation. The satisfaction of a need would imply His dependence on external factors, and as such that would be in contrast with His nature as a God who is before all.

In other words, His omni-x nature is not tied to need; it is tied to His will as a sovereign Being.

2 Likes

Re: The Concept Of God Is Absurd by Horiolah(m): 6:45pm On Mar 12, 2019
Hermes019:

Exactly, I wouldn't say I am absolutely certain a creator exists,but even if it does I am convinced it is not what people portray as God

Exactly.
Re: The Concept Of God Is Absurd by TheArranger(m): 6:45pm On Mar 12, 2019
Zither:
TheArranger, you did not factor the will of such being into your premises? If God had a need He wouldn't be self-sufficient now, would He?

As a being, He has a will which He manifests in creation. It is easy to confuse the manifestation of will with the satisfaction of need. The manifestation of His will is an expression of His sovereignty, greatness and individuality evidenced by His creation. The satisfaction of a need would imply His dependence on external factors, and as such that would be in contrast with His nature as a God who is before all.

In other words, His omni-x nature is not tied to need; it is tied to His will as a sovereign Being.
But he specifically wants people to worship him? Isn't that a need?

I don't know about you but if i created a Ferrari all by myself, then i'd say that i definitely needed one, for some reason.
Re: The Concept Of God Is Absurd by budaatum: 7:18pm On Mar 12, 2019
MuttleyLaff:

Thats why, God in Exodus 3:14, said to Moses:
"I AM WHO I AM.
This is what you are to say to the Israelites: 'I AM has sent me to you."

Essentially means, I will become whatsoever I may become.
I read this book just yesterday and could hear the Israelites go, "What do you mean by 'you sent yourself?'" And by the time I got to Leviticus this morning I could not help see Moses as the God and Aaron as his prophet!
Re: The Concept Of God Is Absurd by MuttleyLaff: 7:31pm On Mar 12, 2019
Zither:
TheArranger, you did not factor the will of such being into your premises? If God had a need He wouldn't be self-sufficient now, would He?

As a being, He has a will which He manifests in creation. It is easy to confuse the manifestation of will with the satisfaction of need. The manifestation of His will is an expression of His sovereignty, greatness and individuality evidenced by His creation. The satisfaction of a need would imply His dependence on external factors, and as such that would be in contrast with His nature as a God who is before all.

In other words, His omni-x nature is not tied to need; it is tied to His will as a sovereign Being
I think I like this post, so liked it

2 Likes

Re: The Concept Of God Is Absurd by GoodMuyis(m): 7:36pm On Mar 12, 2019
ThothHermes:
Anyone can say this. How does it translate to omni-xness?

Jer 32:27 Behold, I am the LORD, the God of all flesh: is there any thing too hard for me?

With this in mind, we can declare that God is omni-x, this show is unlimitedness
Re: The Concept Of God Is Absurd by GoodMuyis(m): 7:40pm On Mar 12, 2019
MuttleyLaff:


God therefore, is, "not-known-number" of person
God, then, is, x-person
and God, in effect is, ∞-persons, as in, infinite or infinity.

I Love this line, it fits into the subject of infinite regression

1 Like

Re: The Concept Of God Is Absurd by Maxi3k(m): 7:59pm On Mar 12, 2019
I think gods are created in the minds of desperate individuals
Re: The Concept Of God Is Absurd by Zither(m): 8:26pm On Mar 12, 2019
TheArranger:

But he specifically wants people to worship him? Isn't that a need?

I don't know about you but if i created a Ferrari all by myself, then i'd say that i definitely needed one, for some reason.

It depends on your definition of worship. One can worship God just by loving Him, by spending time talking with Him as Adam and Eve did in the Garden of Eden, by thanking Him for His deeds, etc... You can see that none of this is a sine qua non for His existence or soveriegnty or greatness...attrubutes connected to His omni-x nature.

If God really needed worship to exist, He wouldn't be eternal or ageless. Through science we know that the universe is over 10 billion years old while the human race is not more than two hundred thousand years old. If God needed the "oxygen" of worship to survive why did He not create the human race earlier? We don't even have any idea how much time had passed before He created the universe. That is a no-man's land for science or logic. It could be a 100 or 500 quadrillion years or more before He created the universe itself. What is certain is that His creation is a manifestation of His will which He put into effect at His pre-determined timeframe, and not more. Everything we see was called into existence at the fullness of His set time of His will, not in response to His supposed dependence on a need.

Yes, if you created a Ferrari it is because you needed it and you would be incapacitated without it. This is why it is a creation of need. Unlike man, God is not incapacitated in the absence of His creation. In the book of Jeremiah 32:27, God asks, "I am the LORD of all flesh. Is anything too hard for me?" If I cultivated a rose garden, is it because I need the rose flower? I do it because I love roses.

In the same fashion Man is a creation of God's love, not need. His love is an act of His will. Look at God's creation and acts as an expression, rather than as a means to an end then you will have begun the journey to know Him better.

1 Like

Re: The Concept Of God Is Absurd by Zither(m): 8:28pm On Mar 12, 2019
MuttleyLaff:
I think I like this post, so liked it

thanks. just the truth and nothing but
Re: The Concept Of God Is Absurd by MuttleyLaff: 8:32pm On Mar 12, 2019
Zither:
thanks. just the truth and nothing but
I pondered over it, mulling it over and over again, so read the post 3-4 times before finally succumbing to the feeling of liking it

1 Like

Re: The Concept Of God Is Absurd by NnennaG6(f): 8:34pm On Mar 12, 2019
TheArranger:
The creative process seems inexorably tied to needs. This process surges as a result of the need to survive, compete or for expression.
What need does a CEO have to paint a picture? Yet one might do so.

I fail to see how "for expression" could not be tied to an omni-x being as a reason for its creating. You can try to couch it in "the need for expression," but we're not going to agree that this counts as a real need and thus won't get very far.

TheArranger:

An omni-x being, or God, by definition has no needs. One might argue that creating would go against his nature. From the Abrahamic standpoint, why would said beings create inferior beings to worship him?
Who said He made these beings to worship Him? Maybe He made them because, knowing them prior to their creation, He loved them (the same way an author might love his novel characters), and, knowing it is better to be than not to be, made them to be, since He loves them.

TheArranger:


1. An omni-x being has no needs or reason to create anything

2. An omni-x being would simply be.

3. The universe exists.

4. Therefore, if the universe was created, the author was an entity with a need. (Or created it by accident...)
Your number 1 premise here is not fully supported. He has no need to create, sure. No reason? I disagree. Find out the explanation of love.
Re: The Concept Of God Is Absurd by Zither(m): 8:38pm On Mar 12, 2019
MuttleyLaff:
I pondered over it, mulling it over and over again, so read the post 3-4 times before finally succumbing to the feeling of liking it

Lol. I have the impression you give your likes grudgingly, but thanks for the like, and for your careful perusal.
Re: The Concept Of God Is Absurd by TheArranger(m): 8:41pm On Mar 12, 2019
Zither:


It depends on your definition of worship. One can worship God just by loving Him, by spending time talking with Him as Adam and Eve did in the Garden of Eden, by thanking Him for His deeds, etc... You can see that none of this is a sine qua non for His existence or soveriegnty or greatness...attrubutes connected to His omni-x nature.

If God really needed worship to exist, He wouldn't be eternal or ageless. Through science we know that the universe is over 10 billion years old while the human race is not more than two hundred thousand years old. If God needed the "oxygen" of worship to survive why did He not create the human race earlier? We don't even have any idea how much time had passed before He created the universe. That is a no-man's land for science or logic. It could be a 100 or 500 quadrillion years or more before He created the universe itself. What is certain is that His creation is a manifestation of His will which He put into effect at His pre-determined timeframe, and not more. Everything we see was called into existence at the fullness of His set time of His will, not in response to His supposed dependence on a need.
So why do we bother worshipping at all? Of what purpose is worship?



Zither:

Yes, if you created a Ferrari it is because you needed it and you would be incapacitated without it. This is why it is a creation of need. Unlike man, God is not incapacitated in the absence of His creation. In the book of Jeremiah 32:27, God asks, "I am the LORD of all flesh. Is anything too hard for me?" If I cultivated a rose garden, is it because I need the rose flower? I do it because I love roses.

In the same fashion Man is a creation of God's love, not need. His love is an act of His will. Look at God's creation and acts as an expression, rather than as a means to an end then you will have begun the journey to know Him better.
NnennaG6:

What need does a CEO have to paint a picture? Yet one might do so.

I fail to see how "for expression" could not be tied to an omni-x being as a reason for its creating. You can try to couch it in "the need for expression," but we're not going to agree that this counts as a real need and thus won't get very far.


Who said He made these beings to worship Him? Maybe He made them because, knowing them prior to their creation, He loved them (the same way an author might love his novel characters), and, knowing it is better to be than not to be, made them to be, since He loves them.


Your number 1 premise here is not fully supported. He has no need to create, sure. No reason? I disagree. Find out the explanation of love.
I think the need for expression would be our impasse then. As humans, there is evidence for this need for as far back as our origins go. Other species show this need as well. My questions would be why would an omni-x being express itself, considering how we view expression? I would accept expression for its own sake, but when inferior beings come into the question, that changes everything. The whole "its better to be than not" frankly falls flat on its face. Say that to people living on a dollar a day. Say that to people that have lived short, anguish filled lives full of pain. Say it to sex slaves, manufacturing slaves, etc. And if you both believe in the concept of Hell, love does not work in this equation.

1 Like

Re: The Concept Of God Is Absurd by Zither(m): 9:06pm On Mar 12, 2019
TheArranger:

So why do we bother worshipping at all? Of what purpose is worship?

If you knew how much God has helped you, how much He has done for you, how much He loves you then how do you love Him in return, how do you appreciate all He has done for you, what do you do to acknowledge His mercy, love, and goodness towards you? That is worship — that's why we "bother" to worship.


I think the need for expression would be our impasse then. As humans, there is evidence for this need for as far back as our origins go. Other species show this need as well. My questions would be why would an omni-x being express itself, considering how we view expression? I would accept expression for its own sake, but when inferior beings come into the question, that changes everything. The whole "its better to be than not" frankly falls flat on its face. Say that to people living on a dollar a day. Say that to people that have lived short, anguish filled lives full of pain. Say it to sex slaves, manufacturing slaves, etc. And if you both believe in the concept of Hell, love does not work in this equation.

You might want to rephrase your question here as the words in bold ink have no relationship of coherence with the paragraph in plain ink.

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