TMKsouth:
In 2017 Nigeria tried to play Rambo by sending a high level delegation to SA to talk tough on the then latest round of xenophobic attacks in the country - even though no Nigerians had been killed. They were foolishly attempting to live up to their self-proclaimed title of 'Big brother". The SA govt and parliament welcomed them with open arms.

Since then more 120 Nigerians have killed in SA including high level officials. In every single one of those cases, without fail, there have NOT been investigations or resolutions by the SA police service.

[b]Moral of the story: [/b]South Africa cannot and will not be dictated to by any single country on the African continent, not least one that cannot even run its own affairs.

U guys should tread very carefully here.

EVarn:


I will urge you to play your own small part in enlightening your people against the evils of xenophobia and other such criminal enterprises. While we may currently be facing grievious security problems of our own,we are keenly aware that the Republic of South Africa has the world's highest crime rate and an unstable polity. However,that shouldn't be an excuse to neglect the security of both citizens and non-citizens. We hope this issue can be resolved soon.

MduZA:
South africans have been living in peace and harmony with African immigrants particularly from neighboring countries but things started to change when our boarders were opened for our so called brothers from Nigeria,we started to witness some of the crimes which were foreign to us(drugs-dealings and human-trafficking),this criminal element went as far as establishing gangs amongst Nigerians themselves which are deadly fighting each other,unfortunately no Nigerian is willing to acknowledge this.We always hear of stories of Nigerians dying in the hands of south African police,when you dig deep down you will find that majority of those victims were criminals who die while trying to avoid arrests using all forms of fatal tricks.My point is Nigerians look yourselves in the mirror,surely you will find unwanted dots which require your own wiper ...or else the status quo will remain unchange unfortunately!

My name is Mduza,that's my personal opinion!

Miaraka:



Mduza, I concur with probably everything you're saying except the fact that you appear not to be aware that there are Nigerians here in SA who are not involved in crime and I'd like to believe that they are in the majority because good people are usually more than bad people. I must add, though, that the bad and very bad Nigerians are very effective in their business of messing up people's lives and denigrating the reputation of their great country.
It's time the good Nigerians - the students, experts, pastors (not the Omotoso type), workers, diplomats and business people - spoke out so that people here in South Africa and the entire Southern Africa would know that Nigerians are not just a nation of criminals but like every other nation, they have criminals among them.
The Nigerian nation also needs to know that no Nigerian is known to have died due to or during a spate of so-called xenophobic violence. South Africans, Ethiopians, Somalians, Mozambicans and Asians and perhaps one or two other nationalities are the only ones who have lost their lives in such incidents.
The Nigerian media and people should stoo misinforming themselves, Nigerians and the world. The majority of Nigerians are killied by Nigerians. Yes a few have died in police custody but South Africans do also die in police custody. Such cases are investigated by an indepedent body called Independent Police Investigative Directorate and the culprits are punished in accordance with our laws. Nigeria can be given access to the files.
The other important thing that Nigerians need to know is that we are diligent when it comes to statistics. According to StatsSA, "South Africa has seen a 1 320 increase in murders, from 19 016 in 2016/2017 to 20 336 in 2017/2018. An average of 57 people are killed a day in the country, 46 of which are men, eight women and two children. This shows an increase from the average of 52 murder deaths a day in 206/2017." All the people who die daily are SAs and once in a while a Nigerian is murdered, not necessarilly by SAs or other Nigerians, possibly by SA based criminals from other countries. We are all potential victims of crime.
Nigerian criminals should not be allowed to use the xenophobia card to mobilize Nigerians and the world to unknowingly support their fraud, counterfeit goods, baby factory, drug and human trafficking activities in SA. They also not be allowed cause irreparable damage to bilateral relations between SA and Nigeria. This is a time when we desperately need leadership, sober-mindedness and wisdom on both the SA and Nigerian side. The Nigerian side should be careful not to be negatively influenced by Trumpism. Our two countries need each other and our continent needs sound and warm relations to subsist between Nigeria and South Africa.

EVarn:
This is quite unfortunate indeed. Allow me to assure you in the strongest terms possible that the FRN will,if pushed to a breaking point on this issue, exercise vigorous and robust measures against the RSA. Nigeria and South Africa are brothers and we shouldn't let the activities of a few misguided elements on both sides jeopardize our cordial relationship.

EVarn:


Nigeria has long had a policy of non-interference in the affairs of other sovereign states,hence, I don't understand what you mean by being "dictated" to. We are merely trying to safeguard the lives of our citizens in your country,same thing your government would have done if the case was reversed.

I will urge you to play your own small part in enlightening your people against the evils of xenophobia and other such criminal enterprises. While we may currently be facing grievious security problems of our own,we are keenly aware that the Republic of South Africa has the world's highest crime rate and an unstable polity. However,that shouldn't be an excuse to neglect the security of both citizens and non-citizens. We hope this issue can be resolved soon.

Lovelive:
But you are killing your own people here in Nigeria every single day so what is d difference ?

MduZA:
South africans have been living in peace and harmony with African immigrants particularly from neighboring countries but things started to change when our boarders were opened for our so called brothers from Nigeria,we started to witness some of the crimes which were foreign to us(drugs-dealings and human-trafficking),this criminal element went as far as establishing gangs amongst Nigerians themselves which are deadly fighting each other,unfortunately no Nigerian is willing to acknowledge this.

MduZA:

We always hear of stories of Nigerians dying in the hands of south African police,when you dig deep down you will find that majority of those victims were criminals who die while trying to avoid arrests using all forms of fatal tricks.My point is Nigerians look yourselves in the mirror,surely you will find unwanted dots which require your own wiper ...or else the status quo will remain unchange unfortunately!

My name is Mduza,that's my personal opinion!

morpheus24:


Point 1. You were not living in peace and harmony with any African immigrants. You always had issues with foreigners particularly from southern Africa who competed with you in the mines and other sectors pre 1994 so stop trying to paint yourself as innocents.

Point 2. Things started to change post 1994 when the economy was handed over to the new government and a major shift occurred in which transformation of the economy did not take place as rapidly as possible and unskilled and under skilled workers began to compete with their foreign African counterparts. The inflow of economic migrants increased and thus the pressure and negative social perceptions of foreigners in general began to fester in the minds of black South Africans.

Point 3. The Nigerians constitute a segment of this burgeoning economic immigrant class of which some specialized in certain types of illicit and illegal activity which was never foreign to your society in the first place. The gangs in the western cape always peddled drugs and were involved in prostitution rings as well. the 28, 27, dixies boys, Americans, mongrels e.t.c have existed in South Africa for a very long time. Your media simply looks for sensational stories to keep your minds occupied from the real powers.





Point 4. I will admit here that Nigerians do kill Nigerians in South Africa anyone that is oblivious of that fact is simply being disingenuous.


Point5. Why should anyone die in custody of the police, is that person's life worth less simply because he is a Nigerian. Did this person attack the police, even resisting arrest does not warrant excessive force that leads to death. If arrested and found wanting, deport with immediate effect back to his motherland and mark the person undesirable. These heinous acts are neglected because deep down inside it comes down to teaching these "others" a lesson and not in terms of true justice.

Nobody is stopping you from cleaning up your streets, if you are going to do it. Do it well!

MduZA:


Your long essay explains nothing,what were the issues we had with foreigners prior 94?

morpheus24:


1. Simply ignoring the points I made as explaining nothing is disingenuous, you didn't address if each of them was factual or not as opposed to meaning nothing.

2.I stated that before and will state it again, you had migrants from other countries that came to work in SA pre-94. You had problems with them in terms of competition for work, pay, housing in hostels e.t.c., but not to the same pronounced scale that is related to the influx of migrant groups growing exponentially post 94.

3. You had gangs, drugs and prostitution ripe in your communities pre 94 but not to the exponential levels so please stop painting yourselves as victims which you media is continuously trying to drive home.

MduZA:


We had no problem with immigrants working in our mines ,it only exists in your imagination as a weapon to back up your fallacy which you Nigerians fabricate in order to blackmail south Africans as if we hate foreigners...

MduZA:

There were no drugs in our streets prior 94,stop dreaming,do you even know how the police of the apartheid regime operated or you are just falling to admit that there is something wrong your compatriots are doing to an extent ordinary south Africans rise up?We don't hate foreigners,there are people from Ghana,Senegal,Cameron etc living in SA,we love them,we only hate drug dealers and human traffickers,period!

Mduza

TMKsouth:
In 2017 Nigeria tried to play Rambo by sending a high level delegation to SA to talk tough on the then latest round of xenophobic attacks in the country - even though no Nigerians had been killed. They were foolishly attempting to live up to their self-proclaimed title of 'Big brother". The SA govt and parliament welcomed them with open arms.

Since then more 120 Nigerians have killed in SA including high level officials. In every single one of those cases, without fail, there have NOT been investigations or resolutions by the SA police service.

[b]Moral of the story: [/b]South Africa cannot and will not be dictated to by any single country on the African continent, not least one that cannot even run its own affairs.

U guys should tread very carefully here.

morpheus24:


1.I never made the claim that South Africans hate foreigners, that's your guilt conscience at work.

2. It's no black mail at all, you just need to ask an old Malawian,Mozambican or Zimbabwean migrant worker pre 1994 how peaceful those hostels were with everybody speaking fanagalo and getting along fine fine!.



3. Yes, there were no gangs in Cape town prior to 1994. I wonder what the gangs did for a living or how they raised money. I am guessing there were turf wars based on who could catch the most fish and sell by the water front?

4. I wonder how all those mixed race kids born to foreigners in the 70's and 80's came about if women were not prostituting themselves and mingling illegally in your down town clubs. Hmmm?

5. There is everything wrong with any Nigerian in South Africa engaged in illicit and illegal activity. Its quite clear, if the police conduct a sting operation and catch people who are illegally in the country and engaged in illegal activity of the serious nature, charge them to court, expedite deportation and send them home. You fail to see that there is a problem with the inability of your government to enact, enforce and channel resources to taking care of this task, they would rather spend the money on ANC rallies and trips to China e.t.c while keeping you engaged in fighting people that are hungry like your. You don't get it do you, you are slow my friend

morpheus24:


Point 1. You were not living in peace and harmony with any African immigrants. You always had issues with foreigners particularly from southern Africa who competed with you in the mines and other sectors pre 1994 so stop trying to paint yourself as innocents.

Before 1994, 100% peace prevailed between local and immigrants who lived side by side in our townships. This particular group of migrants were employed in the factories and white homes. They were married to their country women or locals. I was born and bred and attended school with children of migrants here in Gauteng, the industrial and mining heartland of our country. You are correct about conflict on the mines. From time to time, there would be fights among the SA miners ( representatives of one tribe against another). There were also fights between any of the SA miners comprising one of the tribes and miners from any of the neighbouring countries. According to the trade unions, the fights were caused by the divide and rule policies of the Chamber of Mines and its members. They lived in men's hostels and were all from rural areas and fought over women and petty stuff.

Point 2. Things started to change post 1994 when the economy was handed over to the new government and a major shift occurred in which transformation of the economy did not take place as rapidly as possible and unskilled and under skilled workers began to compete with their foreign African counterparts. The inflow of economic migrants increased and thus the pressure and negative social perceptions of foreigners in general began to fester in the minds of black South Africans.

I think that you are correct about the role played by the torrential influx of thousands of mainly Zimbabwean economic and politcal refugees in the early 2000s. Couple that with our stagnant economy and shrinking jobs market as well as the employers' preference for vulnerable undocumented and non unionised workers, etc....and the bomb was ready to explode.

Point 3. The Nigerians constitute a segment of this burgeoning economic immigrant class of which some specialized in certain types of illicit and illegal activity which was never foreign to your society in the first place. The gangs in the western cape always peddled drugs and were involved in prostitution rings as well. the 28, 27, dixies boys, Americans, mongrels e.t.c have existed in South Africa for a very long time. Your media simply looks for sensational stories to keep your minds occupied from the real powers.

I'm afraid Mduza is wrong to disagree with you when it comes to criminal gangs, prostitution and drugs among the coloureds in the Western Cape. In the rest of the country, prostitution and drugs were almost completely non existent. Then came the Nigerians with their trading expertise and experience. They turned these crimes which were mainly confined to a very small part of our country into a national criminal system, using churches and hair salons as cover and laundromats for their ill-gotten wealth. As if that was not enough, they introduced human trafficking, invitation to SA and abductions of foreign investors and even turned unsuspecting girls and young women into drug mules. One of the worst cases was how a certain group of so-called Nigerian pastors tricked a domestic worker and single mother into abandoning her job and children to go to Iraq and work in their brother's company. She was sentenced to death but God saved her.

Point 4. I will admit here that Nigerians do kill Nigerians in South Africa anyone that is oblivious of that fact is simply being disingenuous.

Let me add here that where possible, they prefer to employ someone else, preferably Zimbabweans who are said to be particularly ruthless.


Point 5. Why should anyone die in custody of the police, is that person's life worth less simply because he is a Nigerian. Did this person attack the police, even resisting arrest does not warrant excessive force that leads to death. If arrested and found wanting, deport with immediate effect back to his motherland and mark the person undesirable. These heinous acts are neglected because deep down inside it comes down to teaching these "others" a lesson and not in terms of true justice.

Yes. Death in police custody shouldn't happen. It's actually a crime. Unfortunately, it happens even to South Africans. That's why we have an independent structure called Independent Police Investigative Directorate to investigate crimes commited by the police.

Nobody is stopping you from cleaning up your streets, if you are going to do it. Do it well!

MduZA:


I dont expect you to admit anything,its in your DNA to go as far as denying that Johannesburg is in south Africa..thats why you keep on basing your arrogant argument using cape town as a case study,

MduZA:

Hey poor Nigerian I was born and grew up in Joburg ,I'm telling you that there were no drugs in our streets prior 94,but as expected you keep on singing your frog song,you cant even substantiate your claims regarding immigrants who worked in our mines prior 94...we had no issues with immigrants then ,we have no issues with immigrants now ,we only have issues with drug dealers and human traffickers..

MduZA:

It is unfortunate that these criminals are diluting the good image and reputation of hard working innocent immigrants,my good friend from Ghana can attest to that...I agree with your sentiment that our government is failing to address the issue of illegal migration,this is the sole reason which led to some unfortunate actions by some of our people...nevertheless it is apparent that our law enforcement officers have woken up from slumber,I advice you to renew your asylum seeker documents my Nigerian friend or else free ticket to Lagos is inevitable!

MduZA

TMKsouth:
In 2017 Nigeria tried to play Rambo by sending a high level delegation to SA to talk tough on the then latest round of xenophobic attacks in the country - even though no Nigerians had been killed. They were foolishly attempting to live up to their self-proclaimed title of 'Big brother". The SA govt and parliament welcomed them with open arms.

Since then more 120 Nigerians have killed in SA including high level officials. In every single one of those cases, without fail, there have NOT been investigations or resolutions by the SA police service.

[b]Moral of the story: [/b]South Africa cannot and will not be dictated to by any single country on the African continent, not least one that cannot even run its own affairs.

U guys should tread very carefully here.

morpheus24:

So now we have shifted the drug reference from cape town to Johannesburg. I thought you said prior to 94 there were no drugs "on our streets", so Johanesburg is the only city that has streets in SA. Hmmmm



I wish I were poor, fortunately I was not but I don't like to brag so lets just say I am pretty sure that I had a far better child hood than you did but that's besides the point.

As regards substantiating stories just go ask a southern African miner in pre 1994 Johannesburg and you can clear your doubt.

You are changing the premise. I never claimed you have issues with "immigrants". Chinese people are immigrants, Europeans are immigrants, indians are immigrants.

What you do have is issues with African illegal immigrants that are engaged in illicit activities, African economic migrants that compete with your under skilled workers and "Nigerians" in particular because of their audaciousness.




1. Nice try on the asylum seeker, I "fortunately" do not live in South Africa but have enough experience and insight to comment confidently on what I have seen and know which is why you do not counter what I say but rather shift the arguement.

2. Don't you have good friends from Nigeria too or are you insinuating that you can only be good friends with a Ghanaian.?

3. I actually want them to sweep out as many people as possible back to their countries, there is no need for these people to continue to reside in a country that is about to explode from pent up anger and self hatred looking for scapegoats to lash out at.

MduZA:


I thought you have intellectual capacity to comprehend and contextualise the content of my sentiments,debating with you is just another futile exercise but understandably so as you are not different from many members I come across on this platform...

Keep your beautiful Nigeria ,let me keep my dirty South Africa!

EVarn:
This is quite unfortunate indeed. Allow me to assure you in the strongest terms possible that the FRN will,if pushed to a breaking point on this issue, exercise vigorous and robust measures against the RSA. Nigeria and South Africa are brothers,and we shouldn't let the activities of a few misguided elements on both sides jeopardize our cordial relationship.

Nigeria has long had a policy of non-interference in the affairs of other sovereign states,hence, I don't understand what you mean by being "dictated" to. We are merely trying to safeguard the lives of our citizens in your country,same thing your government would have done if the case was reversed.

I will urge you to play your own small part in enlightening your people against the evils of xenophobia and other such criminal enterprises. While we may currently be facing grievious security problems of our own,we are keenly aware that the Republic of South Africa has the world's highest crime rate and an unstable polity. However,that shouldn't be an excuse to neglect the security of both citizens and non-citizens. We hope this issue can be resolved soon.

morpheus24:

Hahahahaha, Mduza I have been forcing you and your fellow compatriots to face some of your nonsensical logical arguments and come to terms with South African ethnocentric tendencies, a carry over from Apartheid.

Redherrings and strawman argument tactics will not help you here. I will never support nonsensical reasoning no matter what side is spewing it be it Nigerians or South Africans.


Shikena!