@ garyarnold

garyarnold:

 In the Old Testament, ONLY the farmers tithed, and it was equal percentage (a tenth).

Isrealites were primarily farmers. So that's what gave birth to the emphasis on farm produce. That doesn't mean they never gave money or other things as tithes.

Abraham didn't give farm produce to melchizededk , Jacob tithes was not based on agric but on everything he had. Gold Carmel etc.
 

The New Testament teaches the principle of equal sacrifice instead of equal percentage. Equal sacrifice is much harder to achieve, if not impossible, than giving ten percent.

It's a spiritual principle right from old testament true giving must include sacrifice

2 Samuel 24:24
24 : neither will I offer burnt offerings unto the Lord my God of that which doth cost me nothing. 

I believe those guided by The Spirit, and are financially able, give far more than a mere tenth of their income.

I have said here often that tithing is the smallest of my giving. There are times I have giving all to God. So I wonder why people quarell over just 10% that is so minute. 

garyarnold:

Show me where Jacob ever tithed.  Jacob put conditions on God and said that IF God met those conditions, he would give a tenth of everything that God gave to him.  No one does the scripture tell us that Jacob ever, in fact, gave a tenth of anything.

The fact that the bible is silent on that does not mean he didn't tithe. Someone said something like that this morning . God even reminded Jacob about the tithe  because he hates foolish vow , so Jacob tithed .

Genesis 31:13
13 I[ am] the God of Bethel, where thou anointedst the pillar,[ and] where thou vowedst a vow unto me: now arise, get thee out from this land, and return unto the land of thy kindred. 

Genesis 35:1 
1 And God said unto Jacob, Arise, go up to Bethel, and dwell there: and make there an altar unto God, that appeared unto thee when thou fleddest from the face of Esau thy brother. 

Definately he must have fulfilled  the vow in that instruction by going to bethel, the place of his vow.

Abraham gave a tenth of war spoils and kept nothing for himself.  There is NO scripture telling us that Abraham tithed on his regular income or wealth.

Were the spoils of war farm produce? We were made to u derstand they include shoes.

You are drawing assumptions from what is missing from the scriptures.

That's precisely what you seem to be doing. There is no sinlge scripture where God ever spoke against the tithe.

garyarnold:

Isn't it odd that even though Abram gave a tenth directly to Melchizedek, the king/priest, that some Christians think they can give directly to God by giving it to their pastor?

I find it quite offensive that pastors have appointed themselves to be the receiver of what belongs to God.  After all, the pastor says the tithe belongs to God.  Then he self-appoints himself to receive the tithe!!!

God never gave any pastor or church permission to receive his tithe or his gifts.

Since the tithe belongs to God, if your pastor accepts it isn't he stealing it from God?

Lucky for those of you who think you tithe, you are merely giving a tenth of your income to your church.  You aren't paying the Biblical tithe or you would be disobeying God's command to take His tithe to the Levites.  But then, if in your heart you are paying the Biblical tithe, then I guess you are sinning and breaking God's commands.

Was it God that came down to collect tithes in the old testament times? Was it not His ministers?

garyarnold:

Isn't it odd that even though Abram gave a tenth directly to Melchizedek, the king/priest, that some Christians think they can give directly to God by giving it to their pastor?

I find it quite offensive that pastors have appointed themselves to be the receiver of what belongs to God.  After all, the pastor says the tithe belongs to God.  Then he self-appoints himself to receive the tithe!!!

God never gave any pastor or church permission to receive his tithe or his gifts.

Since the tithe belongs to God, if your pastor accepts it isn't he stealing it from God?

Was Aaron stealing from God?

1 Corinthians 9:13-14
13 Do ye not know that they which minister about holy things live[ of the things] of the temple? and they which wait at the altar are partakers with the altar? 14 Even so hath the Lord ordained that they which preach the gospel should live of the gospel.

Lucky for those of you who think you tithe, you are merely giving a tenth of your income to your church.  You aren't paying the Biblical tithe or you would be disobeying God's command to take His tithe to the Levites.  But then, if in your heart you are paying the Biblical tithe, then I guess you are sinning and breaking God's commands.

It is not a donation to church, the heart gives it in worship to God. What is done with it is not anybodys problem.

Joagbaje:

@ garyarnold
Isrealites were primarily farmers. So that's what gave birth to the emphasis on farm produce. That doesn't mean they never gave money or other things as tithes.

We dont find this anywhere in the bible. The fact that you have to pay an additional 20% as penalty (rendering your tithe in cash) is an indication money was not allowed.

Joagbaje:

Jacob tithes was not based on agric but on everything he had. Gold Carmel etc.

I get the impression you personally received the tithe from Jacob (for you to have this much information).

Was it God that came down to collect tithes in the old testament times? Was is not ministers?

As I have pointed out several times on the blog, God directed the tithe to be taken to the LEVITES. God gave His tithe to the Levites, FOREVER, according to Numbers 18.

The Levites were the SERVANTS TO THE PRIESTS. They were the ushers, singers, musicians, etc. Then the Levites were commanded to give a tenth of the tithe to the priest.

So God not only gave the Levites permission to receive His tithe, He commanded it.

The scriptures don't show where God ever gave any pastor permission to receive His tithe, nor did He command anyone to take His tithe to a pastor or church.

Many say that in Biblical times they didn’t have money and that the economy was based on bartering of goods and services. That is not so. The Bible shows they not only had money, but that money was used as a common way of doing business.

According to the International Bible Encyclopedia, the days of mere bartering ended before the days of Abraham.

Here are just a few examples from The Word to show they did, in fact, use money in Biblical times.

The tithing law itself proves they had both money and a marketing system for buying and selling their crops and animals (Deuteronomy 14:24-26).

THE PURCHASE OF LAND BY ABRAHAM - Genesis 23:15-16

THE PURCHASE OF LAND BY JACOB - Genesis 33:19

JOSEPH WAS SOLD TO THE ISHMEELITES - Genesis 37:28

A MONEY OFFERING TO BE USED FOR THE SERVICE OF THE TABERNACLE - Exodus 30:14-16,

USING SHEKEL OF SILVER TO VALUE A RAM - Leviticus 5:15

THE FOLLOWING VERSES REFER TO WAGES: Genesis 29:15, Genesis 30:28, Genesis 31:7-8, Genesis 31:41, Exodus 2:9, Leviticus 19:13, Malachi 3:5, etc.

THEY HAD A MONEY STANDARD

There are several places in Scripture indicating that scales were used to weigh metals and other items. The Law of Moses, for example, commands Jews not to use dishonest standards, but instead, to use honest scales and honest weights. (See also Deut. 25:13-15; Job 6:2-3; 31:6; Psa. 62:9; Prov. 11:1; 16:11; 20:10, 23; Isa. 40:12; 46:6; and Jer. 32:10).

Leviticus 19:35-36 – Do not use dishonest standards when measuring length, weight or quantity. Use honest scales and honest weights, an honest ephah and an honest hin. I am the LORD your God, who brought you out of Egypt.

In order for money to be an exchangeable equivalent for other commodities in today’s society, there must be a standard in place. Likewise, the Old Testament also had a set standard both prior to the law and during the law. A reference to a pre-law standard is here in Genesis 23:16.

Merchants in biblical times traveled from place to place conducting business. According to the written law, the standard weight for metals was set according to the sanctuary shekel (See also Ex 30:13, 24; 38:24-26; Lev. 5:15; Num. 7:13-86; 18:16).

Leviticus 27:25 – Every value is to be set according to the sanctuary shekel, …

In addition, 2 Samuel 14:26 shows that the weight standard for the shekel was set by the royal standard. No matter which era in history is studied, there existed a standard for the weight of precious metals.

Money was also used throughout the law. For example, God’s people gave money to support the tabernacle (Ex. 30:14-16; 38:24-31). There are many other examples that illustrate money’s place within the written law and indicate that money was indeed a part of everyday life. Exodus 35 provides such an example.

Exodus 35:5, 21-22 – From what you have, take an offering for the LORD. Everyone who is willing is to bring to the LORD an offering of gold, silver and bronze;

And there are many more examples to show that money was used for everyday transactions well before the Levitical tithe.

NO ONE is following Abraham's example of giving a tenth OF WAR SPOILS and keeping NOTHING for themselves. So STOP using Abraham as an example of what YOU are doing.

newmi:

Was it God that came down to collect tithes in the old testament times? Was is not ministers?

If tithe belong to God, and God command that the tithe be given to the Levites what right has the pastor to collect what has been given to the Levite as inheritance? God did not collect tithe in the Old Testament but directed that it be given to the Levites, by giving your tithe to the Levites, you are giving to God. Your pastor has claimed for himself an inheritance that does not belong to him. That is why people see MOGs as thieves.

Joagbaje:

Was Aaron stealing from God?

You amaze me really. Why ask when you know very well that God command that he receive a portion of the tithe?

Joagbaje:

Jacob tithes was not based on agric but on everything he had. Gold Carmel etc.

Joagbaje:

The fact that the bible is silent on that does not mean he didn't tithe. Someone said something like that this morning . God even reminded Jacob about the tithe because he hates foolish vow , so Jacob tithed .

Genesis 31:13
13 I[ am] the God of Bethel, where thou anointedst the pillar,[ and] where thou vowedst a vow unto me: now arise, get thee out from this land, and return unto the land of thy kindred.

Genesis 35:1
1 And God said unto Jacob, Arise, go up to Bethel, and dwell there: and make there an altar unto God, that appeared unto thee when thou fleddest from the face of Esau thy brother.

Definately he must have fulfilled the vow in that instruction by going to bethel, the place of his vow.

Reading through this again (I take Jo’s post very seriously). If Jacob built an altar unto God, rendered his tithe of Gold, camel e.t.c who was the priest that received these items? I’m sure it wasn’t Melchizedek. Did he ordain or recruit a priest to serve at the altar? I am sure Jacob will not be piling expensive treasures like Gold and live camel on an altar to die and rot. Maybe Jacob tithed directly to God

Joagbaje:

The levitical order is over becasue it only accomodated the jews but now we are are back to the order of mechizedek who was a tithe collector , Jesus is our highpriest . We don't have to make references to levitical order, was melchizededk a Levite? No. So we don't need levite to tithe.

And Melchizedek priesthood accommodates the gentiles. Since you defined Christ priesthood based on the activities of the priest Melchizedek, then it is only logical to infer that Melchizedek as a priest also acted as a mediator for the gentiles back in the days. After all we are back to the order of Melchizedek, the priesthhod that mediates for both the Jews and gentiles.

Zikkyy:

If tithe belong to God, and God command that the tithe be given to the Levites what right has the pastor to collect what has been given to the Levite as inheritance? God did not collect tithe in the Old Testament but directed that it be given to the Levites, by giving your tithe to the Levites, you are giving to God. Your pastor has claimed for himself an inheritance that does not belong to him. That is why people see MOGs as thieves.

Where have you been my dear all this while because it seem crystal obvious you've missed out on alot of vital info. I have mentioned earlier on this topic or one related with it that the old testament was a shadow of the new (REAL), while the new testament was concealed in the old testament little wonder the statement of Jesus in John 4:23-24
"But the hour cometh, and now is, when THE TRUE worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship Him. God is a Spirit: and they that worship Him must worship Him in spirit and in truth."

oh if there is the "true worshippers" then by default there is undoubtedly "the false worshippers". Now to show the ignorance of many; somebody might pick on the "false" and say ok so are you saying that they were not real and but God actually gave them the details and pattern of worship they practised so what makes it "not the real". That was the best God could get but that wasn't the ultimate.
The blood of goats and bulls and sheeps were good back in the old testament because they brough in a sense "justice" satisfying the emphasis of God's righteousness
"---without the sheding of blood there is no remission of sins--"

so the levitical order, the priestly order and all of the other orders where only but shadow of the real with all due respect. They fuctioned as the shepherd of God for the people and that is the minisyrt and office of the pastor

Jeremiah 3:15
"And l will give you pastors according to mine heart, which shall feed you with knowledge and understanding."

newmi:

I have mentioned earlier on this topic or one related with it that the old testament was a shadow of the new (REAL), while the new testament was concealed in the old testament little wonder the statement of Jesus in John 4:23-24
"But the hour cometh, and now is, when THE TRUE worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship Him. God is a Spirit: and they that worship Him must worship Him in spirit and in truth."

oh if there is the "true worshippers" then by default there is undoubtedly "the false worshippers". Now to show the ignorance of many; somebody might pick on the "false" and say ok so are you saying that they were not real and but God actually gave them the details and pattern of worship they practised so what makes it "not the real". That was the best God could get but that wasn't the ultimate.
The blood of goats and bulls and sheeps were good back in the old testament because they brough in a sense "justice" satisfying the emphasis of God's righteousness
"---without the sheding of blood there is no remission of sins--"

I am not disputing this with you.

newmi:

so the levitical order, the priestly order and all of the other orders where only but shadow of the real with all due respect. They fuctioned as the shepherd of God for the people and that is the minisyrt and office of the pastor

I have issues with this bit. What I read you say here is that the Levitical priesthood was a shadow of the real (okay) and the real according to you is the office of the pastor. I don’t think so. The Priest under the Levitical order acted as mediator between God and the people. Christ took over this role, not the pastor. There is only one high priest, one mediator, Christ. Your pastor is no priest. We no longer have a priesthood of men who dies and have to be replaced, do we? Your pastor is a self appointed priest. So my friend newmi, the Levitical priesthood does not translate to pastorhood here. Ephesians 4:11-14 details the responsibilities of the pastor.

You are yet to address my concern, and that is how your pastors successfully ‘cornered’ the inheritance of the Levites. Abi they go collect oluwole papers, forge God signature. We don’t have evidence that God transferred this inheritance to the church pastors.

@newmi,

Yes, the Old Testament was a shadow of what was to come.

But the New Testament tells us what came.

1 Peter 2:9 (KJV)  "But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should show forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light:"

Actually, ALL born-again believers are now priests with Jesus being our High Priest.  Your pastor is no more a priest and than any of the rest of us. And in the OT, the priests did NOT tithe.

Consider that nowhere in the New Testament is tithing taught to the Christians.  Yet Paul speaks a whole lot about giving from the heart; giving NOT under compulsion; giving according to our means.  Never did Paul teach tithing and he had many opportunities.