Hello everyone.

I had a WhatsApp group call with three of my friends. James, Wale and Goke (In case any of you is reading this, hi guys, you guys are smart I enjoyed the conversation ) where we discussed the origin of sin.

My position was that there's a greater or darker power that corrupted Lucifer. I mean looking at a logical analysis of Ezekiel 28:15
which I'll quote "Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee."

It is important to put in mind that angels were created before the earth and man subsequently. They were perfect beings created to serve God.

About Lucifer. He was one of the most admirable angels in heaven.

My questions were/still are:
Where was sin before it was found in Lucifer ?
Lucifer was created perfect meaning imperfections came to him due to an interaction with an/some external factor(s)

Also, God created the angels perfect but however didn't confine them to worshipping him like some robots but rather gave them choices to worship him out of their freewill. Now it's important to establish that God is a God of righteousness of which while creating the angels he did that by installing all the righteous features in them by default meaning sin was an external and uninvited guests to the party. So doesn't these all mean that there's always been another end to the righteousness spectrum before Lucifer got tempted and defected to the other side?

They weren't able to convince me maybe you can

Intelligent line of query...

Everyone is focused on the puppet...but got no idea who pulls the puppet strings...

Why Are U Delibrately Confusing Urself. Don't U Understand Simple English Language? Satan Was D Origin Of Sin. He Was D 1st Creature 2 Sin Against God. Go & Read Isaiah14 Read Down & Read D Book Of Revelation Too.

ThreeEyedRaven:
Hello everyone.�

I had a WhatsApp group call with three of my friends. James, Wale and Goke (In case any of you is reading this, hi guys, you guys are smart I enjoyed the conversation �) where we discussed the origin of sin.

My position was that there's a greater or darker power that corrupted Lucifer. I mean looking at a logical analysis of Ezekiel 28:15
which I'll quote "Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee."

It is important to put in mind that angels were created before the earth or man subsequently. They were perfect beings created to serve God.

About Lucifer. He was one of the most admirable angels in heaven.

My questions were
Where was sin before it was found in Lucifer ?

They weren't able to convince me maybe you can

Satan wasn't an angel but from amongst the angels.
He was a jinn who attained a higher position amongst the angels.
Angels have no power to commit sins, they only act according to the command of God.
But the jinn and humans have conscience...
Satan was jealous of Adam because he thought he was greater that Adam due to the status he attained and when God commanded all the angels to postrate to Adam, he Satan Did not postrate.
When God asked Satan "why didn't you postrate " he said " because I am better than him (arrogance)...
I was created from fire while he was created from mud "

Look for other translations of the creation. Especially those relating to the demiurge. Whatever created this part of our universe was tainted from the very beginning, an inferior copy of the greater creation not accessible to us, The creatures of an exiled being. The bible passages are mostly attempts to cover up history. It does contain key truths though.

qwertyboss:

Satan wasn't an angel but from amongst the angels.
He was a jinn who attained a higher position amongst the angels.
Angels have no power to commit sins, they only act according to the command of God.
But the jinn and humans have conscience...
Satan was jealous of Adam because he thought he was greater that Adam due to the status he attained and when God commanded all the angels to postrate to Adam, he Satan Did not postrate.
When God asked Satan "why didn't you postrate " he said " because I am better than him (arrogance)...
I was created from fire while he was created from mud "

Hmmm. You mean there were angels and then jinns( supernatural spirits)

OkCornel:
Intelligent line of query...

Everyone is focused on the puppet...but got no idea who pulls the puppet strings...

Exactly

ThreeEyedRaven:
Hello everyone.

I had a WhatsApp group call with three of my friends. James, Wale and Goke (In case any of you is reading this, hi guys, you guys are smart I enjoyed the conversation ) where we discussed the origin of sin.

My position was that there's a greater or darker power that corrupted Lucifer. I mean looking at a logical analysis of Ezekiel 28:15
which I'll quote "Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee."

It is important to put in mind that angels were created before the earth and man subsequently. They were perfect beings created to serve God.

About Lucifer. He was one of the most admirable angels in heaven.

My questions were/still are:
Where was sin before it was found in Lucifer ?
Lucifer was created perfect meaning imperfections came to him due to an interaction with an/some external factor(s)

Also, God created the angels perfect but however didn't confine them to worshipping him like some robots but rather gave them choices to worship him out of their freewill. Now it's important to establish that God is a God of righteousness of which while creating the angels he did that by installing all the righteous features in them by default meaning sin was an external and uninvited guests to the party. So doesn't these all mean that there's always been another end to the righteousness spectrum before Lucifer got tempted and defected to the other side?

They weren't able to convince me maybe you can

Sorry but the entire Chapter is about the king of Tyre and Siddon.. Nothing about Lucifer in there.
The write up in that book and chapter is similar to that in Isaiah 14, which is about the King of Assyria and again not Lucifer

Also, the character Lucifer is a made-up character, the name came from King James who transliterated the Bible back about 400 years ago and let his imagination run off with him.

Some mysteries are just too deep for human understanding. It's best to just accept things the way they are and live in peace.

There are no other forces that caused him to rebel. He himself caused his downfall by thinking himself higher than God which is a common traits among humans today. You won't know when you start derailing in your tots. That is why the bible warns that we should guide our hearts with all diligence cos out of it springs the issues of life.

So Lucifer prolly derailed in his tots and prolly engaged in some wild imagination due to his position as the highest ranking angel but didn't know God could see his heart.

The answer to your question is a very simple one if you understand what is at stake.
1. God created all i.e angels and humans and so he alone has the right to determine what is right or wrong, good and bad, righteous and sin (Revelation 4:11).
2. God created all as free moral agents ,just as you have stated. So we all have the right to choose to obey God (righteous) or disobey (sin). When we go against God's standards, we sin but if we follow his standards, we are righteous.
Now, Satan, as an angel made a choice for himself. He desired worship probably because of his beauty he became proud. Please read James 1:13-15. When he desired worship which belongs to God alone (Revelation 4:11), he acted on it by challenging God's right to rule his creatures starting with Adam and Eve and they too desired to be like God; to determine for themselves what is good and bad. Thus, sin entered into the world. Romans 5:12.
So, when we desire to determine for ourselves what is good and bad instead of heeding God's instructions or standards, we are sure to go astray thus we sin.
For more on the origin of sin please visit jw.org and search on the topic you are sure to find more than enough material on the topic and more.

ThreeEyedRaven:
Hello everyone.

I had a WhatsApp group call with three of my friends. James, Wale and Goke (In case any of you is reading this, hi guys, you guys are smart I enjoyed the conversation ) where we discussed the origin of sin.

My position was that there's a greater or darker power that corrupted Lucifer. I mean looking at a logical analysis of Ezekiel 28:15
which I'll quote "Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee."

It is important to put in mind that angels were created before the earth and man subsequently. They were perfect beings created to serve God.

About Lucifer. He was one of the most admirable angels in heaven.

My questions were/still are:
Where was sin before it was found in Lucifer ?
Lucifer was created perfect meaning imperfections came to him due to an interaction with an/some external factor(s)

Also, God created the angels perfect but however didn't confine them to worshipping him like some robots but rather gave them choices to worship him out of their freewill. Now it's important to establish that God is a God of righteousness of which while creating the angels he did that by installing all the righteous features in them by default meaning sin was an external and uninvited guests to the party. So doesn't these all mean that there's always been another end to the righteousness spectrum before Lucifer got tempted and defected to the other side?

They weren't able to convince me maybe you can

God didn't create him a robot . He had power of will . And he used it in rebellion

Op, the truth of it is this:

Satan was not just an angel, he was a Cherubim. The highest class directly below God.

Also, there were some angels far more stronger and wicked than Lucifer. I mean, exceedingly far.

Do you know that God gave Lucifer freedom when he cast Him down, but he had to chain these angels immediately they rebelled till the judgement day?

If he didn't chain them immediately, just imagine how the world would be. So Lucifer still dey learn for their side. Lucifer ain't actually the most sinful or wicked, he just received a little bit of Mercy from God.

Kobojunkie:
Sorry but the entire Chapter is about the king of Tyre and Siddon.. Nothing about Lucifer in there.
The write up in that book and chapter is similar to that in Isaiah 14, which is about the King of Assyria and again not Lucifer

Also, the character Lucifer is a made-up character, the name came from King James who transliterated the Bible back about 400 years ago and let his imagination run off with him.

Why am I even more attracted to your opinion. I have this beliefs too but everyone around keep referring it to Lucifer

Brachaa:
There are no other forces that caused him to rebel. He himself caused his downfall by thinking himself higher than God which is a common traits among humans today. You won't know when you start derailing in your tots. That is why the bible warns that we should guide our hearts with all diligence cos out of it springs the issues of life.

So Lucifer prolly derailed in his tots and prolly engaged in some wild imagination due to his position as the highest ranking angel but didn't know God could see his heart.

It is believed that thoughts are inspiration from the spiritual realm that we process here and act on them. Someone/something sparked those thoughts in him. Who/what is responsible it ?

jibovico:
The answer to your question is a very simple one if you understand what is at stake.
1. God created all i.e angels and humans and so he alone has the right to determine what is right or wrong, good and bad, righteous and sin (Revelation 4:11).
2. God created all as free moral agents ,just as you have stated. So we all have the right to choose to obey God (righteous) or disobey (sin). When we go against God's standards, we sin but if we follow his standards, we are righteous.
Now, Satan, as an angel made a choice for himself. He desired worship probably because of his beauty he became proud. Please read James 1:13-15. When he desired worship which belongs to God alone (Revelation 4:11), he acted on it by challenging God's right to rule his creatures starting with Adam and Eve and they too desired to be like God; to determine for themselves what is good and bad. Thus, sin entered into the world. Romans 5:12.
So, when we desire to determine for ourselves what is good and bad instead of heeding God's instructions or standards, we are sure to go astray thus we sin.
For more on the origin of sin please visit jw.org and search on the topic you are sure to find more than enough material on the topic and more.

Incidentally James, Wale and Goke are JWs. But from what you've said on the bolded area, Satan was to choose to be on the righteous side or the sinful side. Meaning God seats on righteousness and there's someone/something else who sits on sinfulness that got Satan to defect to his side of the divide

Playthepianos:
Op, the truth of it is this:

Satan was not just an angel, he was a Cherubim. The highest class directly below God.

Also, there were some angels far more stronger and wicked than Lucifer. I mean, exceedingly far.

Do you know that God gave Lucifer freedom when he cast Him down, but he had to chain these angels immediately they rebelled till the judgement day?

If he didn't chain them immediately, just imagine how the world would be. So Lucifer still dey learn for their side. Lucifer ain't actually the most sinful or wicked, he just received a little bit of Mercy from God.

Any reference to these?

ThreeEyedRaven:


It is believed that thoughts are inspiration from the spiritual realm that we process here and act on them. Someone/something sparked those thoughts in him. Who/what is responsible it ?

Which thoughts are inspiration from spiritual realm?

So if you have thoughts of cooking afang soup, its from the a spiritual realm? Or you imagine how to wear good clothes, something from the other realm is inspiring it? Doesn't conform.

ThreeEyedRaven:


Any reference to these?

Seconded

ThreeEyedRaven:
Hello everyone.

I had a WhatsApp group call with three of my friends. James, Wale and Goke (In case any of you is reading this, hi guys, you guys are smart I enjoyed the conversation ) where we discussed the origin of sin.

My position was that there's a greater or darker power that corrupted Lucifer. I mean looking at a logical analysis of Ezekiel 28:15
which I'll quote "Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee."

It is important to put in mind that angels were created before the earth and man subsequently. They were perfect beings created to serve God.

About Lucifer. He was one of the most admirable angels in heaven.

My questions were/still are:
Where was sin before it was found in Lucifer ?
Lucifer was created perfect meaning imperfections came to him due to an interaction with an/some external factor(s)

Also, God created the angels perfect but however didn't confine them to worshipping him like some robots but rather gave them choices to worship him out of their freewill. Now it's important to establish that God is a God of righteousness of which while creating the angels he did that by installing all the righteous features in them by default meaning sin was an external and uninvited guests to the party. So doesn't these all mean that there's always been another end to the righteousness spectrum before Lucifer got tempted and defected to the other side?

They weren't able to convince me maybe you can

I saw your comment in agreement to the one who said, “everyone is focusing on the puppet, but no one is focused on the puppeteer”. Hmm.

Please permit me to respond to your query.

Foremost, that passage was speaking of the King of Tyre; two chapters preceding chapter 28, all spoke about the King of Tyre (not Lucifer). “You were in Eden”, verse 13 - where you drew your conclusion that that scripture spoke of Lucifer, please say. The verse goes on the to list precious stones “found in him”.

May we look at these precious stones for a minute? The stones to wit are: The ruby, the topaz and the diamond; The beryl, the onyx and the jasper; The lapis lazuli, the turquoise and the emerald; And the gold. In the introductory scriptures to creation of man, we see that the streams that flowed out of Eden flowed to places where Gold and Onyx was found. As we progress through the scriptures, we see that the breastplate of the ephod, an apparel worn by the priests (and a couple of times by Kings), was decked in twelve precious stones; to wit are: sardius (ruby), topaz, carbuncle (garnet), emerald, sapphire, diamond, jacinth, agate, amethyst, beryl, onyx and jasper; it was embroidered with gold and its twelve precious stones set in gold filigree. The stones spoken of here in Ezekiel 28 are the same precious stones found on the breastplate of an ephod. Several descriptions of the duties of the first Adam gives us strong reasons to believe that his chief duty in the Garden of Eden was to be a priest unto God. The rivers from the garden and the lands they flowed to were picturesque descriptions of the means Adam was to speak with/to God similar to the use of the ephod.

The reference verse says, “on the day you were created, they were prepared”. If we infer from the second chapter of The Book of Genesis, just after the precious stones and rivers were mentioned, Adam was placed in Eden, perhaps on the same day. If one stopped his reading at verse 13, then, such a one would conclude that Adam was the man in question here.

To be continued...

ThreeEyedRaven:
Hello everyone.

I had a WhatsApp group call with three of my friends. James, Wale and Goke (In case any of you is reading this, hi guys, you guys are smart I enjoyed the conversation ) where we discussed the origin of sin.

My position was that there's a greater or darker power that corrupted Lucifer. I mean looking at a logical analysis of Ezekiel 28:15
which I'll quote "Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee."

The Answer is God Made "Something" Called Evil to Swallow Up and Eat the things that are Not goods and bads, So that Only Goods or Good things would remain in Abundance and Circulation.

But because Satan did Great evil, God Cursed him with the love and desire for evil.

And remember Always Curses or Judgements Follow after you have offended God.

Therefore, Satan was Merged with the Evil Created,

It is that same merging that he, Satan replicated with the soul of man.

Kobojunkie:
Sorry but the entire Chapter is about the king of Tyre and Siddon.. Nothing about Lucifer in there.
The write up in that book and chapter is similar to that in Isaiah 14, which is about the King of Assyria and again not Lucifer

Also, the character Lucifer is a made-up character, the name came from King James who transliterated the Bible back about 400 years ago and let his imagination run off with him.

"The Words I Speak to you are Spirit and Life" that is what King James version represents. It is not mere words but Spirit, for it is Written in Spirit!

And it is the Spirit which gives power to discern All things that which is True and that which is a Lie, that which is Good from that which is evil, not mere words.

ThreeEyedRaven:


It is believed that thoughts are inspiration from the spiritual realm that we process here and act on them. Someone/something sparked those thoughts in him. Who/what is responsible it ?

Nothing did and you have experienced this fact!

Remember that event where you carried out an action not because you were tempted or provoked or anything at all But Simply Because You Wished And Desired to Do Your Own Will and Your Own Pleasure, and you did not care about who it affects or the Consequences of your action.

Same thing happened to Satan.

And I think he was the First to get out of Order (And If You know God, He Pays Great Attention to the First), Like Adam/Eve, he got the brunt of God's Anger!

ThreeEyedRaven:


It is believed that thoughts are inspiration from the spiritual realm that we process here and act on them. Someone/something sparked those thoughts in him. Who/what is responsible it ?

For man, you are afflicted by 2 Major forces, Your Own Desires and Satan and the 2 of them are inside you.

Which Is why it is Written "Guide your heart (soul) with all diligence."

Dtruthspeaker:


The Answer is God Made "Something" Called Evil to Swallow Up and Eat the things that are Not goods and bads, So that Only Goods or Good things would remain in Abundance and Circulation.

But because Satan did Great evil, God Cursed him with the love and desire for evil.

And remember Always Curses or Judgements Follow after you have offended God.

Therefore, Satan was Merged with the Evil Created,
No
It is that same merging that he, Satan replicated with the soul of man.

Deep

Brachaa:


Which thoughts are inspiration from spiritual realm?

So if you have thoughts of cooking afang soup, its from the a spiritual realm? Or you imagine how to wear good clothes, something from the other realm is inspiring it? Doesn't conform.

The physical is a manifestation of the spiritual. The spiritual controls the physical

Acehart:


I saw your comment in agreement to the one who said, “everyone is focusing on the puppet, but no one is focused on the puppeteer”. Hmm.

Please permit me to respond to your query.

Foremost, that passage was speaking of the King of Tyre; two chapters preceding chapter 28, all spoke about the King of Tyre (not Lucifer). “You were in Eden”, verse 13 - where you drew your conclusion that that scripture spoke of Lucifer, says. The verse goes on the to list precious stones “found in him”.

May we look at these precious stones for a minute? The stones to wit are: The ruby, the topaz and the diamond; The beryl, the onyx and the jasper; The lapis lazuli, the turquoise and the emerald; And the gold. In the introductory scriptures to creation of man, we see that the streams that flowed out of Eden flowed to places where Gold and Onyx was found. As we progress through the scriptures, we see that the breastplate of the ephod, an apparel worn by the priests (and a couple of times by Kings), was decked in twelve precious stones; to wit are: sardius (ruby), topaz, carbuncle (garnet), emerald, sapphire, diamond, jacinth, agate, amethyst, beryl, onyx and jasper; it was embroidered with gold and its twelve precious stones set in gold filigree. The stones spoken of here in Ezekiel 28 are the same precious stones found on the breastplate of an ephod. Several descriptions of the duties of the first Adam gives us strong reasons to believe that his chief duty in the Garden of Eden was to be a priest unto God. The rivers from the garden and the lands they flowed to were picturesque descriptions of the means Adam was to speak with/to God similar to the use of the ephod.

The reference verse says, “on the day you were created, they were prepared”. If we infer from the second chapter of The Book of Genesis, just after the precious stones and rivers were mentioned, Adam was placed in Eden, perhaps on the same day. If one stopped his reading at verse 13, then, such a one would conclude that Adam was the man in question here.

To be continued...

Waiting...

ThreeEyedRaven:

The physical is a manifestation of the spiritual. The spiritual controls the physical

Yeah I know the spiritual controls the physical but not in the context I sighted above. Also, Lucifer was not operating in the physical. So your point??

Lucifer was a spiritual being and you're not trying to say he was influenced by some physical being or powers?

Just learn to take the word of God /bible contextually and not try to read some deeper meanings to it especially where it doesn't apply.


Shalom.

ThreeEyedRaven:


Any reference to these?

The Book of Enoch reveals part of this.

ThreeEyedRaven:
Hello everyone.

I had a WhatsApp group call with three of my friends. James, Wale and Goke (In case any of you is reading this, hi guys, you guys are smart I enjoyed the conversation ) where we discussed the origin of sin.

My position was that there's a greater or darker power that corrupted Lucifer. I mean looking at a logical analysis of Ezekiel 28:15
which I'll quote "Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee."

It is important to put in mind that angels were created before the earth and man subsequently. They were perfect beings created to serve God.

About Lucifer. He was one of the most admirable angels in heaven.

My questions were/still are:
Where was sin before it was found in Lucifer ?
Lucifer was created perfect meaning imperfections came to him due to an interaction with an/some external factor(s)

Also, God created the angels perfect but however didn't confine them to worshipping him like some robots but rather gave them choices to worship him out of their freewill. Now it's important to establish that God is a God of righteousness of which while creating the angels he did that by installing all the righteous features in them by default meaning sin was an external and uninvited guests to the party. So doesn't these all mean that there's always been another end to the righteousness spectrum before Lucifer got tempted and defected to the other side?

They weren't able to convince me maybe you can

There was no higher force that corrupted lucifer.
God created lucifer perfect does not mean that lucifer can not sin.
God does not impose his will on his creatures but rather give them the opportunity of choice.
When God created the angels, they were free to choose God's righteous ways and remain with God or they can choose to reject it.
Lucifer wanted to rule, He wanted equality with God, He didnt want God's way which he deemed slavery and weak.
God's way is characterised by truth, love, righteousness etc.
Lucifer wanted to be worshipped, served in place of God. He wanted nothing else but power to enforce his own idea of what the creation should be.
Lucifer is the not the most powerful angel but technically he is because of his wisdom ( because of his wisdom he was the first philosopher) hence he is the most intelligent, smartest, intellectual creature in the universe and the most beautiful in addition to that He is the embodiment of music.
Hence He thought his own wisdom and beauty coupled with his charisma, He thought he was wiser and smarter than the creator and could do better than God.
Remember angels has a limited knowledge about God, so lucifer taught He could actually be like God.
When God created the angels, he gave them the responsibility to choose their own path, some wanted independence to also function as gods in their own right, the leader of this ambition was lucifer but others remained loyal to God.

Adam just like the angels was given the opportunity to determine his future, that was why God put the tree of knowledge of good and evil in the garden.
Unlike the angels man can not on his own know what is good and what is evil only what God told him, but satan decieved eve, and Adam sinned by choosing to disobey God. By that action he had rejected God but God showed Adam mercy because what happened to Adam was by satan's schemes.

The angels on the other hand had the knowledge of good and evil by defunct and those that sinned deliberately rejected God because they wanted power and position, they were not deceived hence their doom was sealed.

Lucifer was ready to damn all consequences. He taught he could fight his way through to equality with God and escape the consequences of his actions.
But He lost the war and was cast out of heaven with his angels.

Lucifer became satan when he rejected God, he still continues in his rebellion, He knows he can never be like God but he want that which belongs to God and that is worship, he is so desperate for it, that he wanted Jesus the Son of God to worship him and he promise to give Jesus all the kingdom of the earth.
People who worship idols, gods and goddesses are worshipping these demons, people join various cults and occult groups, witchcraft and various groups that are against God because they do not want God.
Today this Rebellion, God hating and opposing God has totally permeated the human society.
Various atheistic and God hating movements are getting mor and more rooted in the human society, people want a world without God and his reign and are ready to persecute or even kill all those who truly worship God and obey God's commandment.
And in the near future lucifer will raise his own leader (the antichrist) who would unite this God hating and atheistic world to ultimate rebellion, madly they would literally want to stop Jesus from coming. The Holly wood film industry is constantly portraying this as the future of mankind through their films, the internet, media are pushing God out of the narrative and trying to create a human society that doesnt need God to function, in summary the world is basically run on the luciferian ideology of rebellion, God hating, christ rejection and antichristian in its entirety but, all these will end immediately Jesus set his appear in the sky his second coming, Jesus will execute God's judgment upon the world. At the time Jesus is through with the Judgment one thing will be clear, God's holiness will be upheld and every one will understand that God is God.

Playthepianos:


The Book of Enoch reveals part of this.

I’m curious.

I thought the book of Enoch discussed more on the rebellion of the watchers led by Semjaza and his cohorts... rather than the Luciferian rebellion

OkCornel:


I’m curious.

I thought the book of Enoch discussed more on the rebellion of the watchers led by Semjaza and his cohorts... rather than the Luciferian rebellion

Yes, it talked LARGELY about this.