@TV01,

TV01:

But since you have re-defined "lead" as "care", that is not exactly true is it

Well, I haven't seen you define it in any other significant way that would negate that.

TV01:

I have never claimed Leadership = Eldership, even going by your re-engineered meaning

There were no re-engineered meanings in my rejoinders; and you have been arguing all along for "eldership" as if that alone defines "leadership".

TV01:

So once again, leadershp is open to all, eldership is open to males only. Simply stated.

Right. I'll come back to deal with that; but let me note two things:

(a) if you assert that "leadership is open to all", does that not answer the question of the thread? Can women be leaders - yes or no? And your assertion here confirms indeed that women are indeed leaders as far as you make leadership open to all.

(b) if leadership is open to "all", you have only removed the ground from under which you're standing. Not all are leaders, and you can't argue otherwise. Trying to make leadership open to "all" means then that your wife-to-be can be a leader contrary to your previous arguments. Do you really have a consistent position at all?

TV01:

Assuming you don't have a peculier interpretation of eldership, pray tell, if women can be elders,
what is it if anything that precludes UGE in church?

You can throw the UGE in the bin in so far my arguments are not in support of universal gender equality. Don't even suggest it in my rejoinders because once more I'll state it here: this is not about universal gender equality but about leadership in the Body of Christ.

TV01:

Also if women can be elders, how can usurpation be on gender lines and why can't they teach?

I'll come back to treat that; but suffice to say here that women can be elders; they are called to be "teachers of good things" (Tit. 2:3); and usurpation is not something that is confined alone to women - men as well could try to usurp authority.

TV01:

After all I have agreed that Deborah was a judge with all the capacity of the male judges right? Are you now turning around to say that women elders are not to function in the full capacity of male elders?

What really is your argument here? One the one hand you denied the case made in Deborah's example; then you came back acquiescing thereto: are you coming back arguing that women indeed can function in the full capacity of male judges? If that is the case, where's your argument then?

What I see in Scripture is that everyone has specific roles to fulfill in Scripture. In just the same way that women are cautioned against usurping authority over the men, so should men not therefore try to usurp roles they were never called to over anybody.

TV01:

Why spend reams, re-defining and re-enginering, which served only to becloud and obscure?. Why not just say, "women can do this and this, but not this (and why)". Or, they can do anything/everything. Then points of difference can be discussed

When a discussion was offered, you assumed the role of bossing people around instead of patiently reading and appreciating the various perspectives of each contribution. If you're only interested in being snotty-nosed, I've offered that such will not be tolerated any further from you.

TV01:

Who has denied miracles?
Please tell us, what do apostles do in this day and age?

I'll do so promptly as soon as you've obliged me an answer to the question I offered in that quote.

TV01:

Whoops, swallowing your own tail. I thought you said care was leadership?

Here: (https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-61492.160.html#msg1259802)

@TV01,

TV01:

A mature congregation with SQ elders in place has no need for oversight. Matters arising can be discussed and settled within. There can of course be recourse to elders/mature believers in other locations, but that in no way suggests they are/have to be subject in some way to them, or some other authority outside their locale.

"A mature congregation with SQ elders in place has no need for oversight", you said. You know what? I wish you would really settle down and humbly ask God to show you His truth before you post anything assertively.

When apostle Peter spoke about elders in 1 Pet. 5:1 & 2, he clearly indicated that their responsibility was to the oversight thereof: "The elders which are among you I exhort, who am also an elder, and a witness of the sufferings of Christ, and also a partaker of the glory that shall be revealed: Feed the flock of God which is among you, taking the oversight thereof, not by constraint, but willingly; not for filthy lucre, but of a ready mind."

Another example in Acts 20. Paul had called for the elders of the church at Ephesian (vs. 17), and then in verse 28 he stated that the Holy Ghost had made them overseers.

Are we to assume by your interpretation that the churches in 1 Pet. 5 and Acts 20 were not mature congregation with SQ elders? Since the Bible clearly shows that the elders there are qualified (or the Holy Ghost would not have chosen them as such), how come you dismiss this fact and assert that a mature congregation with qualified elders have no need for oversight?

Your ideas are deeply flawed.

TV01:

The church has been founded, the blueprint is published. No more apostles or those doing apostolic (foundational) work. Even church started in a place that had not hitherto heard the gospel would be established as laid down by scripture and according to the prescribed pattern and established doctrine. "The faith once for all delivered". Nobody can bring new doctrine, new revelation or anything foundational. What Paul and the other apostles prescribed was and is authoritative.

Nobody is making a case for new doctrine. The point is simply that you don't understand whereof you assert. Besides, the apostles of Ephesians 4 were not confined to merely "(foundational) work"; for in that Scripture we are made to understand in verses 12 and 13 that their ministry is on-going.

TV01:

Why would oversight oversight of mature congregations be required? And in any event, why would this oversight be "Apostolic"?

There are several reasons outlined, and you can pick up a few from the scriptures I offered: 1 Pet. 5:1 & 2 and Acts 20:28.

TV01:

Once a church has SQE in place any oversight/outside care becomes unecessary, they are autonomous in ruling and caring for each other.

Then I propose you discuss the issue in 1 Pet. 5:1 & 2 and Acts 20:28. Were the elders in those verses qualified as such? And since that is the case, why did the inspired apostles Peter and Paul mention the fact that they were to take the oversight or be overseers? Please try and reason this out calmly, because you seem to be making a dangerous gamble here.

TV01:

What Paul and those of that era (apostles or not) where doing ws establishing this foundation according to a blueprint. All we do now is build on it. Not re-define or re-engineer it, as some would have us do

So then, the "foundation according to blueprint" was being established by those in Paul's era - whether they were "apostles or not"? Do you make any sense when you doublespeak? No one is re-defining anything; we're just pointing out the fact that you have a hollow perspective on what you're trying to assert.

TV01:

Canon is closed. We know how church should function, what is right, what is acceptable and what is wrong. We know why we congregate, we know how the dynamics of church and family relationships are supposed to work.

Yada-yada. You still haven't demonstrated a good grasp of the subject before us.

TV01:

Try reading earlier back in Ephesians, before you become overly fatigued by trying to articulate your whole understanding on the one verse. With due consideration congrgations can discuss and agree. Matthew 18 may help here.

I do hope for your sake that you can see I offered additional texts besides Ephesians 4?

TV01:

Apologies for ignoring most of your obviously hormonal driven diatribe

I'll let it pass this one time, hoping you'd be more interested in having a discussion than in slurring others' posts.

Regards.

@TV01,

If in the church, there is UGE, why cannot women teach? If the only difference is physical strength. and nothing else, why can't they teach?

I do not agree that women cannot teach in Church. Again, the context is talking about the family. Let us look at the verses. 1 Timothy 2:11 Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection. But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence. the keyword here is SUBJECTION. Like the scriptures teach, a woman is subject only to her husband. Here are some scriptures to that end: Ephesians 5:24 Therefore as the church is subject unto Christ, so let the wives be to their own husbands in every thing. 1 Peter 3:5 For after this manner in the old time the holy women also, who trusted in God, adorned themselves, being in subjection unto their own husbands: To make this clearer, Paul mentioned that when He said women should keep silence in the churches, he was refering to usurping authority over the husband by telling the wife to ask her husbands questions at home so as not to be out of other when she speaks in church. In order words, a man can delegate authority to his wife to speak on the behalf of that union and anything contrary to that is against divine revelation.

@TV01,

TV01:

Also if women can be elders, how can usurpation be on gender lines and why can't they teach?

I promised to come back and deal with that, so here.

[center]-----------[/center]

The one question that you've been asking is this: "Can women be elders"? And my one line answer is "Yes". I also asked a question in the same regard: "Is ELDERSHIP the only thing in the Church that defines LEADERSHIP??" And you have largely ignored/ducked that question.

In anycase, my persuasion is based on what I learnt from Scripture, as outlined below:

(a) What is the meaning of the word "ELDER" in leadership?

The meaning of the word "elder" as denoting leadership in Church is actually presbutēs or presbutis (from the Gk. words πρεσβύτης and πρεσβύτις respectively. The words appear in Paul's pastoral epistle to Titus:

"That the aged men (πρεσβύτης) be sober, grave, temperate, sound in faith, in charity, in patience. The aged women (πρεσβύτις) likewise, that they be in behaviour as becometh holiness, not false accusers, not given to much wine, teachers of good things." -- Tit. 2:2 & 3.

Please understand that the clause "aged men" appears as just one word in Greek, as well is the case with "aged women". Even so, the presbutēs (πρεσβύτης) and presbutis (πρεσβύτις) are both defined in a combined sense in 1 Timothy -

"Neglect not the gift that is in thee, which was given thee by prophecy, with the laying on of the hands of the presbytery (Gr. πρεσβυτέριον - 'presbuterion')."



(b) So, who actually are called to the "PRESBYTERY"?

- Is it reserved for only men; or,
- do we also find women so addressed?

Let's look at 1 Tim. 5:1 & 2:

"Rebuke not an elder, but intreat him as a father; and the younger men as brethren;
The elder women as mothers; the younger as sisters, with all purity."

The highlighted words "elders" and "elder women" are the same word - 'presbuteros' (Gk. πρεσβύτερος). Here, we see that those who are called by the same term "presbuteros" are men and women ('as a father' and 'as mothers'). If we were to afford them in the very same original wording, we would have it read as the following:

Rebuke not an elder (Gk. πρεσβύτερος), but intreat him as a father; and the younger men as brethren;
The elder (Gk. πρεσβύτερος) as mothers; the younger as sisters, with all purity.

Those who argue for a men-only eldership should also be looking at the text above (1 Tim. 5:1); because here we see clearly that the term is used for both men and women!

Before I go any further, I would like to ask what exactly is wrong with this text if it uses the exact same word for both men and women??

Now following on from 1 Timothy 5:1 & 2, I'll be offering a few more texts for discussion as to why "elders/eldership" is not exclusively preserved to men. We have seen that the term "elder" in Greek is used for both men and women:

      "Rebuke not an elder (Gk. πρεσβύτερος), but intreat him as a father; and the younger men as brethren;
      The elder (Gk. πρεσβύτερος) as mothers; the younger as sisters, with all purity."


(c) So where else do we read of "ELDERS" in a collective sense?

Please understand that when I use the term 'collective sense', it is pointing to the fact that in the texts where they appear, they are not said to be exclusively for men. Often times, when some people have read the words "elder" and "elders", they have often mentally assigned such words to only men without carefully seeing indeed that the texts do not necessarily indicate or address themselves to only males. I'll try to supply the Greek words in parenthesis to indicate the word in their combined sense as used above in 1 Tim. 5:1 & 2.


Acts 14:23
"And when they had ordained them elders (Gk. πρεσβύτερος - "presbuteros" in every church, and had prayed with fasting, they commended them to the Lord, on whom they believed."

Acts 20:17
"And from Miletus he sent to Ephesus, and called the elders (Gk. πρεσβύτερος - "presbuteros" of the church."

1 Tim. 5:17
"Let the elders (Gk. πρεσβύτερος - "presbuteros" that rule well be counted worthy of double honour, especially they who labour in the word and doctrine."

James 5:14
"Is any sick among you? let him call for the elders (Gk. πρεσβύτερος - "presbuteros" of the church; and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord"

1 Pet. 5:1 & 5
"The elders (Gk. πρεσβύτερος - "presbuteros" which are among you I exhort, who am also an elder, and a witness of the sufferings of Christ, and also a partaker of the glory that shall be revealed. . . Likewise, ye younger, submit yourselves unto the elder (Gk. πρεσβύτερος - "presbuteros" . Yea, all of you be subject one to another, and be clothed with humility: for God resisteth the proud, and giveth grace to the humble."


Now, I hope these Scriptures offered (especially 1 Timothy 5:1 & 2) have answered the one basic question ("Can women be called ELDERS (Gk. πρεσβύτερος - presbuteros)?" that many people have been asking and some have assertively denied impossible!

However, please notice that in 1 Tim. 5:17, the elders there are said to "rule" and "labour in word and doctrine". It would seem that not every elder does the second, as is clear by the word "especially" (especially they who labour in word and doctrine). That Scripture doesn't say that ALL elders do exactly the same things; but the first part indicates that they collectively "RULE"!!

This is why these "elders" (in a collective sense) are understood as those who "rule" in other verses:

Heb. 13:7
"Remember them which have the rule over you, who have spoken unto you the word of God: whose faith follow, considering the end of their conversation."

Heb. 13:17
"Obey them that have the rule over you, and submit yourselves: for they watch for your souls, as they that must give account, that they may do it with joy, and not with grief: for that is unprofitable for you."

Heb. 13:24
"Salute all them that have the rule over you, and all the saints. They of Italy salute you."


These verses should help us see that the term "ELDERS" (Gk. πρεσβύτερος - presbuteros) is applied to both men and women; and the idea that it applies to exclusively to the men is only because such readers are deliberately refusing to look at other verses that speak of the collective sense of the word.


@All,
Is the question now answered in some helpful way?

A little something more for us to consider:

(d) So what other roles are there that women as "ELDERS" (Gk. πρεσβύτερος - "presbuteros" are called to fulfill?

There are some elders who are called to rule; others also labour in word and doctrine:
"Let the elders (Gk. πρεσβύτερος - "presbuteros" that rule well be counted worthy of double honour, especially they who labour in the word and doctrine." -- (1 Tim. 5:17)

In another text, we find indeed that some women addressed with the same Greek word for "elders" are said to be teachers:

"The aged women (Gk. πρεσβύτις - presbutis) likewise, that they be in behaviour as becometh holiness, not false accusers, not given to much wine, teachers of good things" -- (Titus 2:3)

In James 5:14 where the word for "elders" is used in the combined sense, we find another role that these leaders fulfill -

"Is any sick among you? let him call for the elders (Gk. πρεσβύτερος - "presbuteros" of the church; and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord."

Now, let's all slow down and think for a minute: is James 5:14 addressing roles for only men? Is it only men that can pray over the sick in terms of the "eldership" ministering to sick folks? Let's remember that the word for "elders" in this verse is used for both men and women in 1 Tim. 5: 1 & 2. So, there's nothing to indicate that the elders who pray for the sick in James 5:14 are supposed to be men only!

Another example of leadership that no one can argue as exclusively reserved for men is found in I Cor. 12:28 - "And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues."

The word "government" in that verse in Greek is κυβέρνησις (kubernēsis) and seems to have appeared only once (in that verse) in the NT. It is closely akin to the understanding of 'steering' or 'directing'. The one thing many are asking is whether this word indicates a role played by men only. It does not appear so - as we have already noted indeed that another translation offers the verse this way:

"And indeed [those] whom God set in the Assembly [are]: first apostles, second prophets, third teachers, next miraculous powers, next spiritual gifts of healings, helpers, leaders [or, administrators], [various] kinds of tongues." (ALT).

The question now is this: does the word "leaders" apply to men only? Isn't it clear from the preceding that men and women have various leadership roles in the Church?

More later.

A few more questions to be asked - and answers from the Word:

(e) Does the Scripture not forbid women teaching in Church?

(i)  "Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection. But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence." -- 1 Tim. 2:11 & 12

(ii) "Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience, as also saith the law." -- 1 Cor. 14:34

First, there is no contradiction between 1 Tim. 2:11 & 12 and 1 Cor. 14:34. The one thing that we ought to be concerned about is the sphere or setting where women are asked to not assume teaching roles. There's no doubt that women (as "elders" - Gk. πρεσβύτις - presbutis) are recognized as 'teachers of good things' in Tit. 2:3. Let's also bear in mind that these verses are not asking women to be "mute" in Church, for that is not what is meant by their keeping 'silence with all subjection' or keeping 'silence in the churches'.

There are a few issues here before us in the two passages before us:

(a) to 'learn in silence' and 'keep silence in the churches' point to activities in Church rather than in the home. The reason for this is that the apostle makes clear in I Cor. 14:35 that if women had questions they could ask their husbands at home. This is the reason why it is a weak assumption to apply 1 Tim. 2:11 & 12 to the home setting - because that would mean that women are to be silent at home as well and not even ask anything! Certainly, a woman could ask questions and speak in the home setting (pity husbands who can't provide answers); but in a formal gathering of the saints for collective worship, women are asked to not be "speakers", assuming such roles in a deeper sense of defining doctrine for the Church.

This is why I believe that stimulus was on spot when he made allusion to the fact that this was pointing to a scenario where women want to assume to be "masters"
(https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-61492.128.html#msg1256221)

(b) in other settings, women as "elders" (Gk. πρεσβύτις - presbutis) addressed as 'teachers of good things' (Tit. 2:3) can teach the 'younger'. Let me quickly remark here that the Greek words for "young men" and "young women" in 1 Tim. 5:1 & 2 and Tit. 2:4 & 6 are νέος (neos) and νεώτερος (neōteros) and they point simply to "youth". The ministry of female elders in terms of 'teaching' is particularly in reference to younger women (νέος - neos) (Titus 2:4).

(c) from the foregoing, we can see the various distinct roles of female elders (Gk. πρεσβύτις - presbutis) and compare with male elders (same Gk. πρεσβύτις - presbutis): bottomline is that each had their various spheres of calling and rule/caring for the Church, and not every elder does exactly the same thing as others. This should make us understand clearly that male elders are not called to assume the roles particularly meant for female elders as we read read in Titus 2:3-5.

(f) What about usurping authority over the man?

Indeed women are asked to not usurp authority over the men (1 Tim. 2:12) - and refrence has already been made as to what that entails (https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-61492.128.html#msg1256221).

However, does that in itself mean that men as elders have a superior rule over women - and that therefore the women elders are left in a "no-go", "not-to-be-heard" and "behind-class" position? That is not what Scripture teaches us, even though some people have traditionally thought so. Let me clarify:

To 'usurp' authority - what does that mean? I have tried to look up the word "usurp" and at the moment have come to the inference that it is used once in the NT in the very verse before us (1 Tim. 2:12, KJV). The phrase 'usurp authority over' happens to be just a single word in Greek - αὐθεντέω (authenteō), and has been translated in various ways in other versions:

'But I do not permit a woman to be teaching, nor to be exerting dominance over a man, _but_ to be in quietness.' (ALT).

'But I permit not a woman to teach, nor to have dominion over a man, but to be in quietness.' (ASV)

Thayer's Greek Definitions (TGD) gives us the following on the word 'usurp' --

2) one who acts on his own authority, autocratic

3) an absolute master

4) to govern, exercise dominion over one

It becomes clear that the understanding of 'usurping authority over' the man is simply to "autocratically domineer over as an absolute master". It is indeed a shame if a woman (or even a man) does that to God's people.

The reason why I believe that men also could be usurping authority over others could be found in 1 Pet. 5:1-3. When the apostle Peter speaks of "elders" in the combined sense of the word (the same in Gk. πρεσβύτερος - presbuteros), he cautioned that they (men and women) should not "lord it over" God's people when they exercise the oversight:

"The elders (Gk. πρεσβύτερος - presbuteros) which are among you I exhort, who am also an elder, and a witness of the sufferings of Christ, and also a partaker of the glory that shall be revealed: Feed the flock of God which is among you, taking the oversight thereof, not by constraint, but willingly; not for filthy lucre, but of a ready mind; Neither as being lords over God's heritage, but being ensamples to the flock."

Thayer (TGD) again on the phrasal term "lords over" gives the same or a close meaning as "usurp authority over" --

TGD [lords over]:

1) to bring under one’s power, to subject one’s self, to subdue, master
2) to hold in subjection, to be master of, exercise lordship over

We need to ask ourselves here: who is actually usurping authority (or lording it over) who? Is it only women that are cautioned to not do so; or the men as well are cautioned to not assume to be "masters" and "lords" over God's heritage?

This is why I so much agree with stimulus that people should look at issues objectively and see the balance given in the Word instead of holding fastidiously to only a few verses as if those alone are all there is on the subject!

Finally,

(g) Can I attend a Church led by a Woman?

I believe that Scripture shows us that leadership in the Body of Christ (or in the Church) is a joint exercise rather than an exclusive "men only" or "women only" sort of thing. The elders are both men and women, each having their various distinct roles to play in the Church.

If that is the setting, praise God. But if God in His sovereignty uses women effectively as He does men in some instances, praise Him all the more. I could attend a church where women are in leadership; but I doubt if I would most gladly want to remain there.

Many blessings. 

@ Pilgrim.1,

Re post 289, I’ll ignore that as you are obviously still in an emotional state.

Re post 290, please calm down. No need to get over excited. But I guess that’s a gender thing huh ? Firstly I have not bossed anyone or the discussion as a whole, secondly I am merely articulating my position, based on my walk. I do not claim dominion over anyone’s faith, although I suggest you cower behind your husband or the patriarch of your family .

It’s obvious that more than scripture informs your responses and line of reasoning. I said quite clearly that a congregation with SQE does not need oversight. Plain and simple. Meaning, as any reasonable person would have figured (or asked if they didn’t), that the SQE provide oversight for the congregation, but there is no need for any external or outside oversight.

Further from all that had gone before, it was obvious that I felt overall shepherding of the flock was the duty of SQE. It would help if you stuck to articulating your beliefs and not your outrage at me or you mis-interpretation of mine .

An overblown and wordy post on the basis of willful misrepresentation. Add that to you list of sins (redefining re-engineering etc.) .

I guess another one I should simply ignore. If I find anything worthy of response, I’ll be sure to do so.

God bless
TV

@TV01,

TV01:

Re post 289, I’ll ignore that as you are obviously still in an emotional state.

Not true. Don't misread people was the message.

TV01:

Re post 290, please calm down. No need to get over excited. But I guess that’s a gender thing huh ?

It's not. It's just about time that you respect others on the Forum.

TV01:

Firstly I have not bossed anyone or the discussion as a whole, secondly I am merely articulating my position, based on my walk. I do not claim dominion over anyone’s faith, although I suggest you cower behind your husband or the patriarch of your family .

I'll just take that as a joke.

TV01:

It’s obvious that more than scripture informs your responses and line of reasoning. I said quite clearly that a congregation with SQE does not need oversight. Plain and simple. Meaning, as any reasonable person would have figured (or asked if they didn’t), that the SQE provide oversight for the congregation, but there is no need for any external or outside oversight.

Don't try to pretend you were misunderstood. The issues are clear - a mature congregation needs oversight, and that is what the Word teaches. Secondly, I have stuck to the Scriptures and not made allusions to issues outside that.

TV01:

Further from all that had gone before, it was obvious that I felt overall shepherding of the flock was the duty of SQE. It would help if you stuck to articulating your beliefs and not your outrage at me or you mis-interpretation of mine .

Please go through the previous entries I made just before your rejoinder this morning. Have I not tried to articulate my position? Secondly, you should not be complaining about what you serve others but can't contain yourself.

TV01:

An overblown and wordy post on the basis of willful misrepresentation. Add that to you list of sins (redefining re-engineering etc.) .

No problem - that's the language of losers who pretend to be men. I knew you were coming with that. You asked for Scripture, articulation, etc. You were served them, and now you come back limply making this silly whining. You don't cease to be comical.

TV01:

I guess another one I should simply ignore. If I find anything worthy of response, I’ll be sure to do so.

No worries. I've just given you something to carefully go through - please don't hide behind that limp excuse. Go through the Scriptures and show what in my inputs have significantly been misquoted and misapplied.

Cheers.

@ Pilgrim,

Uncouth aggressiveness is unbecoming - even in men - please desist.

Your posts numbered 293 - 296 are not without merit. But being as they are based on post #292, they have to be read with a discerning eye.

More knowledgable, better read contributors have with more depth and clarity already debunked and shred you wilfully misinterpreted and mis-applied reading of Titus 2.

I said something worthy of response. I am not so much responding as highlighting, your trite schoolgirlish ploy to mis-contextualise and mis-apply the reference to older (more mature) congregants as denoting church elders. To further advance and claim it speaks to both genders as such, and even go as far as to claim it's a "call" to eldership. My, my, you are bold.

If that and your rancid diatribe was noot sufficient, you then proceeded to make a nonsense of all you posted previously in #297.

Based on this encounter and your attitude in it, I'd wholesale love to say that women should just "kipshot". But God be thanked, that neither my understanding or approach are informed by my encounters or anecdotal evidence.

I thank Him further, that  I have cause to appreciate His work in the male/female creation and the value, worth and contribution of men women in the church.

God bless
TV

@TV01,

TV01:

Uncouth aggressiveness is unbecoming - even in men - please desist.

Don't try to humour me. Did you take care to heed my advice earlier that you respect posts and rather discuss with others?

TV01:

Your posts numbered 293 - 296 are not without merit. But being as they are based on post #292, they have to be read with a discerning eye.

No problem; waiting for comments.

TV01:

More knowledgable, better read contributors have with more depth and clarity already debunked and shred you wilfully misinterpreted and mis-applied reading of Titus 2.

Where? Are you dreaming?

TV01:

I said something worthy of response. I am not so much responding as highlighting, your trite schoolgirlish ploy to mis-contextualise and mis-apply the reference to older (more mature) congregants as denoting church elders. To further advance and claim it speaks to both genders as such, and even go as far as to claim it's a "call" to eldership. My, my, you are bold.

Thanks for recognizing my boldness to state what I find Scripture indicates. Please go back and scrutinize where in all the points I raised you may find that I misquoted and misapplied them instead of the excuses you're noising abroad.

TV01:

If that and your rancid diatribe was noot sufficient, you then proceeded to make a nonsense of all you posted previously in #297.

No worries - just simply discuss them. Several times I warned that you discuss issues and not disparage posts; you didn't take the offer. Please come back and cry more.

TV01:

Based on this encounter and your attitude in it, I'd wholesale love to say that women should just "kipshot". But God be thanked, that neither my understanding or approach are informed by my encounters or anecdotal evidence.

Anecdotal evidence - because your biases have been punctured and you had nothing to defend the exact wording of the texts quoted in mine? Do you need a handkerchief to sob some more?

TV01:

I thank Him further, that I have cause to appreciate His work in the male/female creation and the value, worth and contribution of men women in the church.

Just simply be open to what you read. The things you rigorously denied are staring you full circle. The core questions you raised have been addressed. You don't like the answers? Then no qualms; but your response in itself didn't say anything.

Enjoy.

@ Pilgrim.1,

Giving place to you as the weaker vessel  , let me comment.

(g) Can I attend a Church led by a Woman?

I believe that Scripture shows us that leadership in the Body of Christ (or in the Church) is a joint exercise rather than an exclusive "men only" or "women only" sort of thing. The elders are both men and women, each having their various distinct roles to play in the Church.

If you insist leadership = care, then yes. Albeit "Church Eldership" is the preserve of SQM.
Also your effort to claim that older women are to teach the younger ones - thus making the older teachers "Elders" -  is true only in part, as it doesn't make them elders.

The corrallary for men is also found wanting, as proper Elders can teach all of the congregation (if they are men, and gifted in teaching). Although it may be wise to let some non-core stuff be handled on a gender basis.

If that is the setting, praise God. But if God in His sovereignty uses women effectively as He does men in some instances, praise Him all the more. I could attend a church where women are in leadership; but I doubt if I would most gladly want to remain there.

Here's where you make a lie of all your postings and a wierd disconnect between your belief and practice.

Why if you beieve in "balance in leadership", differing capacitities and all the other highly spun jargon you have used to push your agenda (futilely it must be said), would you have a problem "where women are in leadership"? Indeed, it can be taken as read from your posts, that if such is not the case, there is something amiss. So you should rather be saying the opposite, that you cannot gladly remain in a church where women are not in leadership.

Talk about weaker and more easily decieved .

But as I said, I give place to that.

God bless
TV

@TV01,

TV01:

Giving place to you as the weaker vessel  , let me comment.

No worries.

TV01:

If you insist leadership = care, then yes. Albeit "Church Eldership" is the preserve of SQM.
Also your effort to claim that older women are to teach the younger ones - thus making the older teachers "Elders" -  is true only in part, as it doesn't make them elders.

Please consult your Greek study materials and refute the exact wordings showing that women are called exactly what the men are called.

TV01:

The corrallary for men is also found wanting, as proper Elders can teach all of the congregation (if they are men, and gifted in teaching). Although it may be wise to let some non-core stuff be handled on a gender basis.

You're treading on very shaky grounds. Men, in whatever capacity, are not called to assume the roles of women as given in Scripture.

TV01:

Here's where you make a lie of all your postings and a wierd disconnect between your belief and practice.

Instead of deliberately trying to paint me black, why don't you humbly be a gentleman and go through the texts I offered and discuss them?

TV01:

Why if you beieve in "balance in leadership", differing capacitities and all the other highly spun jargon you have used to push your agenda (futilely it must be said), would you have a problem "where women are in leadership"?

My one reason is this: leadership is not the exclusive preserve of men; and again, leadership is not the exclusive preserve of women. In one word, both men and women are involved in leadership - and I've shown how so in the outlines offered earlier.

TV01:

Indeed, it can be taken as read from your posts, that if such is not the case, there is something amiss. So you should rather be saying the opposite, that you cannot gladly remain in a church where women are not in leadership.

Not true. Rather than be in any church where women alone assert themselves as the only leaders, I would seek out a church fellowship where the Word is respected and both men and women are appreciated for what God has called them to exercise.

TV01:

Talk about weaker and more easily decieved

Again, I'd let that pass. But don't push your luck - and this is the last time I warn you to rest your discourtesies.

TV01:

But as I said, I give place to that.

Okay, I respect whatever you feel like.

Cheers.

@Pilgrim

Please consult your Greek study materials and refute the exact wordings showing that women are called exactly what the men are called.

Just for you and in love (phileo), and with respect to you as the weaker vessel .

The KJV New Testament Greek Lexicon

Strong's Number: 4246 Browse Lexicon
Original Word Word Origin
presbuvth߼/FONT> from the same as (4245)
Transliterated Word TDNT Entry
Presbutes 6:683,931
Phonetic Spelling Parts of Speech
pres-boo'-tace Noun Masculine

Definition
an old man, an aged man ambassador

King James Word Usage - Total: 3
old man 1, aged man 1, aged 1


The KJV New Testament Greek Lexicon

Strong's Number: 4247 Browse Lexicon
Original Word Word Origin
presbu'ti߼/FONT> from (4246)
Transliterated Word TDNT Entry
Presbutis None
Phonetic Spelling Parts of Speech
pres-boo'-tis Noun Feminine

Definition
an aged woman

King James Word Usage - Total: 1
aged women 1

KJV Verse Count
Titus 1


I could go on and on, but I'll leave you to reflect. With or without a lexicon, concordance, dictionary PHD in the languages of antiquity or really old Greek in-laws , one can clearly discern the context , setting and tone of Titus.

Any more for any more?

God bless
TV

@TV01,

You haven't really said anything but only confirmed what I stated earlier. That the number of times a word appears in the KJV does not mean that that is the only time that word appears in the Greek original.

Could you please be man enough to apply your brains?

pilgrim.1:

Could you please be man enough to apply your brains?

Could you kindly outline how, or better still, explain.

Thanks

@TV01,

TV01:

Could you kindly outline how, or better still, explain.

I did not only refer to the Greek wording to help us understand the texts quoted in my explanations; but I tried to point out what the text would have us understand. By quoting a line of Concordance or Lexicons, my rejoinders would not have helped anyone if I only left it there and did not try to discuss what Greek words I was quoting.

Please take a look at this as well - that's what I meant when making reference to the word "elders" used in a combined sense:


1 Timothy 5:1 & 2 --

    Rebuke not an elder,⁴²⁴⁵ but intreat him as a father; and the younger men as brethren;
    The elder women⁴²⁴⁵ as mothers; the younger as sisters, with all purity.


*4245

Strong's Hebrew and Greek Dictionaries

     G4245
     πρεσβύτερος
     presbuteros
     pres-boo'-ter-os
Comparative of πρέσβυς presbus (elderly); older; as noun, a senior; specifically an Israelite Sanhedrist (also figuratively, member of the celestial council) or Christian “presbyter”: - elder (-est), old.


Thayer's Greek Definitions

G4245
     πρεσβύτερος
     presbuteros
Thayer Definition:

     1) elder, of age
        1a) the elder of two people
        1b) advanced in life, an elder, a senior
              1b1) forefathers
    2) a term of rank or office
        2a) among the Jews
              2a1) members of the great council or Sanhedrin (because in early times the rulers of the people, judges, etc., were selected from elderly men)
              2a2) of those who in separate cities managed public affairs and administered justice
       2b) among the Christians, those who presided over the assemblies (or churches) The NT uses the term bishop, elders, and presbyters interchangeably
       2c) the twenty four members of the heavenly Sanhedrin or court seated on thrones around the throne of God
      Part of Speech: adjective
      A Related Word by Thayer’s/Strong’s Number: comparative of presbus (elderly)
Citing in TDNT: 6:651, 931


That's just one example; but that is not the only example I used.

Regards.

So what this suggests is that the term is dependent on context, and the context and usage in Titus 2 does not suggest "Church Elders". Sowwy !

You're missing the point, really.

Men are elders.

Women are also elders.

Men and women have their various roles as elders in Church.

Together, they are called elders (πρεσβύτερος - presbuteros).

pilgrim.1:

You're missing the point, really.

On the contrary, I absolutely get it.

Having spoken about the role of Bishop, Paul went on to talk about how older, more mature brethren should be treated. Spiritual maturity or authority, should not mean that physical maturity and experience should not be honoured or is not useful for the care of the brethren.

pilgrim.1:

Men are elders.

Church elders & also brethren who are mature in age, being careful to distinguish them.

pilgrim.1:

Women are also elders.

Not "Church Elders", but congregants who are mature in age.

pilgrim.1:

Men and women have their various roles as elders in Church.

Indeed, both men and women have various roles in the church, but "Church Eldership" is reserved for SQM.

pilgrim.1:

Together, they are called elders (πρεσβύτερος - presbuteros).

Yes now! If you employ convoluted arguments and go to great lengths to fudge the differences. !

God bless
TV

@TV01,

Rather than play on particular strains, why don't you take a look at the references and see what the gist is all about? You're really marking time around issues you don't understand; and if you claim you do understand, I haven't read you deal with them other than claiming that they're convoluted and fudged.

TV01:

Yes now! If you employ convoluted arguments and go to great lengths to fudge the differences. !

The basic question you asked has been answered. What is really pitiful is your repeated limp answers to fastidiously hold onto your ego. It's not that difficult to see the point, and I'd appreciate something more of substance in your rejoinders than the usual empty claims you come back with.

Cheers.

From Adams creation his wife had to follow his lead with regards to spiritual matters
In times past, God passed down spiritual directions and actions to be implemented through the Male heads of households or communities (Gen 7:17, 12:1-5). When the nation of Israel was constituted, God selected a MALE ONLY priesthood to take the lead in matters pertaining to worship and MALE ONLY Levites to help them with this issue(Deut 33:10). When the nation of Israel came under the rulership of Kings, who had a mandate to lead the Israelites in a path of spiritual righteousness, God selected only MALES as kings.

Coming down to the Christian era.

When Jesus walked the earth, he had many disciples including women who wanted to follow his footsteps. These women (including his mother) COULD NOT take a leading role in matters pertaining to pure worship. When Jesus selected those that would be his Apostles and subsequently take the lead in the Church (Acts 2:14, 8:14-17, 10:24), Jesus selected only MALES. Similarly when a replacement for 1 of the twelve was made it WAS NOT OPEN TO ANY OF THE FEMALE DISCIPLES who had toiled with Jesus (and since this appointment was made under the guidance of the holy spirit, it gives a strong indication as to what the will of God was towards who could be an overseer).
Later when some issues in worship had to be addressed, the Apostles appointed ONLY MEN TO SERVE AS DEACONS (Acts Chap 7:1-7) to work under their authority to oversee certain issues.
Appointment of elders in Churches was done under the guidance of Holy Spirit. These Elders HAD TO TEACH, INSTRUCT, SHEPHARD, PRESIDE OVER AND OVERSEE THE AFAIRS OF THE CHURCH (Acts 14:23, 16:4,5, )
[b]When other matters arose that needed directives and instructions the Apostles and these MALE Elders under the direction of the Holy Spirit issued these AND THE WHOLE CHURCH HAS TO FOLLOW THEIR LEAD AND WERE SUBJECT TO THEIR AUTHORITY).([/b]Acts Chapter 15)

Now to SUM THIS DISCUSSION UP

Apostle Paul had under the guidiance of the holy spirit participated in making appointment of elders throughout the congregations.[/i]Now in writing he outlines EXACTLY WHAT GOD’S WILL IS TOWARDS THE APPOINTMENT OF OVERSEERS IN THE CONGREGATION.

1 Cor 14: 33-35

33For God is not a God of disorder but of peace.
      As in all the congregations of the saints[/b][/color][color=#770077], [b]34women should remain silent in the churches. They are not allowed to speak, but must be in submission, as the Law says. 35If they want to inquire about something, they should ask their own husbands at home; for it is disgraceful for a woman to speak in the church.


1 Tim 2:11,12
11A woman should learn in quietness and full submission. 12 [i]I DO NOT PERMIT a woman to teach or to have authority over a man; she must be silent.

1Tim 3:1-14   (Note that the role of the man and the woman ARE NOT INTERCHANGABLE)


1Here is a trustworthy saying: If anyone sets his heart on being an overseer,[a] he desires a noble task. 2Now the overseer must be above reproach, the husband of but one wife, temperate, self-controlled, respectable, hospitable, able to teach, 3not given to drunkenness, not violent but gentle, not quarrelsome, not a lover of money. 4He must manage his own family well and see that his children obey him with proper respect. 5(If anyone does not know how to manage his own family, how can he take care of God's church?) 6He must not be a recent convert, or he may become conceited and fall under the same judgment as the devil. 7He must also have a good reputation with outsiders, so that he will not fall into disgrace and into the devil's trap.
8Deacons, likewise, are to be men worthy of respect, sincere, not indulging in much wine, and not pursuing dishonest gain. 9They must keep hold of the deep truths of the faith with a clear conscience. 10They must first be tested; and then if there is nothing against them, let them serve as deacons.
11In the same way, their wives are to be women worthy of respect, not malicious talkers but temperate and trustworthy in everything.
12A [b]deacon must be the husband of but one wife and must manage his children and his household well. 13Those who have served well gain an excellent standing and great assurance in their faith in Christ Jesus.

Summarry

From the bible it is the duty of Elders/Bishops/Overseers to Have authority over, teach, preside over, shephard, instruct and oversee the Church.

On the other hand Women CANNOT have authority over, teach, instruct, preside over, instruct or shephard the flock[/color].


So women [color=#990000]cannot serve as a member of the body of the Elders in the congregation[color=#770077][/color]

@TV01

I appreciate the manner in which you tackled this topic for the most part.

Most people here are propagating their own thoughts rather tha stating what is found in the bible.

At the end of the day we get accused of propagating a Man only world .

The thing is that neither of us or any other person in this forum is in a position to reexpound, rethink, renegotiate or restate what is in the bible.

People carry on with this topic like there is room for negotiation as pertaining to roles within the congregation.

But the bible is clear on the role of elders and what women are not allowed to do WITHIN).


neither Tayo D arguments, nor Stimulus nor Pilgrims has ANY FOUNDATION ON THE BIBLE.

Neither does bogus arguments quoting the prophecy of Joel, Miriam leading fellow women in worship, women in the congregation admonished to teach fellow women, nor the case of Deborar, nor the fact that the Christian body is seen as one by Christ (Both males and females) CONTRADICT THE DIVINELY SET QUALIFICATIONS FOR APPOINTMENT TO POSITIONS OF OVERSIGHT IN THE CONGREGATION.

After a thorough examination of the above
any questions are welcome

Hi sage,

Good to read once more from you. Here are a few things you have missed and only tried to push just a few verses in support for a male only leadership in the Church:

1.

sage:

When the nation of Israel was constituted, God selected a MALE ONLY priesthood to take the lead in matters pertaining to worship and MALE ONLY Levites to help them with this issue(Deut 33:10).

This issue has been much discussed; and some people have felt that visiting the OT may be of very little benefit to understanding worship in the NT. However, even when you revisit the issue, I'd like to simply say this:

      In the NT, both males and females are priests together (I Pet. 2:5 & 9)

There's nothing wrong with revisiting the OT worship specifications. The only thing I'd advise here is that we don't forget what the NT says about the fact that both MALES and FEMALES are priests in the CHURCH.

2.

sage:

When the nation of Israel came under the rulership of Kings, who had a mandate to lead the Israelites in a path of spiritual righteousness, God selected only MALES as kings.

This is where it gets really interesting. I'd like you to take a very close look at the examples of the following and perhaps offer us WHY God chose these women to do exactly the same as the men did as far as leadership is concerned:

   (a) Micah 6:4 -- God sending Moses, Aaron and Miriam

   (b) Judges 4 & 5 -- Deborah the prophetess

   (c) 2 Kings 22 & 2 Chron. 34 --  Huldah the prophetess

There are definitely more; but you may not have seen them (many people don't, actually). So, please go to those texts and offer an explication as to WHY God chose those women in leadership over His people (contrary to your assertion that God chose only men to lead).

sage:

Coming down to the Christian era.

When Jesus walked the earth, he had many disciples including women who wanted to follow his footsteps. These women (including his mother) COULD NOT take a leading role in matters pertaining to pure worship.

Where is it written that any believer leads the 'pure worship' of NT Christian believers?

sage:

When Jesus selected those that would be his Apostles and subsequently take the lead in the Church (Acts 2:14, 8:14-17, 10:24), Jesus selected only MALES. Similarly when a replacement for 1 of the twelve was made it WAS NOT OPEN TO ANY OF THE FEMALE DISCIPLES who had toiled with Jesus (and since this appointment was made under the guidance of the holy spirit, it gives a strong indication as to what the will of God was towards who could be an overseer).

Please look carefully at what you're trying to infer:

(a) the choosing of the apostles could not be confused for those who were called 'overseers'. These are two distinct issues.

(b) If you are making out all the disciples to be ONLY MEN, may I ask you what you think of Rom. 16:7 - "Salute Andronicus and Junia, my kinsmen, and my fellowprisoners, who are of note among the apostles, who also were in Christ before me"?

(c) How many apostles do you see in the New Testament?

(d) What does Ephesians 4:11 mean to you?

sage:

Later when some issues in worship had to be addressed, the Apostles appointed ONLY MEN TO SERVE AS DEACONS (Acts Chap 7:1-7) to work under their authority to oversee certain issues.
Appointment of elders in Churches was done under the guidance of Holy Spirit. These Elders HAD TO TEACH, INSTRUCT, SHEPHARD, PRESIDE OVER AND OVERSEE THE AFAIRS OF THE CHURCH (Acts 14:23, 16:4,5, )
When other matters arose that needed directives and instructions the Apostles and these MALE Elders under the direction of the Holy Spirit issued these AND THE WHOLE CHURCH HAS TO FOLLOW THEIR LEAD AND WERE SUBJECT TO THEIR AUTHORITY).([/b]Acts Chapter 15)

What do you understand by the term [b]PRESBUTEROS (πρεσβύτερος)? Is that a term that was used for only male elders?

@sage,

sage:

Apostle Paul had under the guidiance of the holy spirit participated in making appointment of elders throughout the congregations.[/i]Now in writing he outlines EXACTLY WHAT GOD’S WILL IS TOWARDS THE APPOINTMENT OF OVERSEERS IN THE CONGREGATION.

1 Cor 14: 33-35

33For God is not a God of disorder but of peace.
      As in all the congregations of the saints[/b][/color][color=#770077], [b]34women should remain silent in the churches. They are not allowed to speak, but must be in submission, as the Law says. 35If they want to inquire about something, they should ask their own husbands at home; for it is disgraceful for a woman to speak in the church.


1 Tim 2:11,12
11A woman should learn in quietness and full submission. 12 [i]I DO NOT PERMIT a woman to teach or to have authority over a man; she must be silent.

1Tim 3:1-14   (Note that the role of the man and the woman ARE NOT INTERCHANGABLE)

I've discussed those texts already; could it be possible that you might have something to counter the issues raised thereto?  What did the inspired apostle mean by the term PRESBUTEROS (πρεσβύτερος)?

sage:

From the bible it is the duty of Elders/Bishops/Overseers to Have authority over, teach, [color=#990000]preside over, shephard, instruct and oversee [/color] the Church.

Good. And the NT clearly indicates that women were also called along with the men to shepherd the Church. Women were called exactly the same term as the male "elders" --PRESBUTEROS (πρεσβύτερος].

sage:

On the other hand Women CANNOT have authority over, teach, instruct, preside over, instruct or shephard the flock[/color].

That is because you refuse to examine the texts that clearly outline the fact that women are also called to shepherd the Church.

sage:

So women [color=#990000]cannot serve as a member of the body of the Elders in the congregation[color=#770077][/color]

Go through the texts again, broaden your scope and take a good look at those other texts you guys have been avoiding all along. It might be very helpful to do so.

@sage,

sage:

I appreciate the manner in which you tackled this topic for the most part.

Most people here are propagating their own thoughts rather tha stating what is found in the bible.

At the end of the day we get accused of propagating a Man only world .

The thing is that neither of us or any other person in this forum is in a position to reexpound, rethink, renegotiate or restate what is in the bible.

People carry on with this topic like there is room for negotiation as pertaining to roles within the congregation.

But the bible is clear on the role of elders and what women are not allowed to do WITHIN).


neither Tayo D arguments, nor Stimulus nor Pilgrims has ANY FOUNDATION ON THE BIBLE.

I never expected you'd be such a self-congratulatory loser! Rather than backslap anyone in hope of scoring some sympathy, be a gentleman and go through the texts you either missed, or have deliberately refused to consider. I'm waiting for your answers to the few questions offered you just to see where you're copping out your own 'FOUNDATION'.

sage:

Neither does bogus arguments quoting the prophecy of Joel, Miriam leading fellow women in worship, women in the congregation admonished to teach fellow women, nor the case of Deborar, nor the fact that the Christian body is seen as one by Christ (Both males and females) CONTRADICT THE DIVINELY SET QUALIFICATIONS FOR APPOINTMENT TO POSITIONS OF OVERSIGHT IN THE CONGREGATION.

Please stop making noise. Men who are worth any substance in their manhood don't holla so loud; rather, they calm down and look into the Word and settle their nightmares on what is taught there. You can't just come on board and rascally dismiss the ministries of those women - you didn't appoint them; God did!

Hi sage,

Good to read once more from you. Here are a few things you have missed and only tried to push just a few verses in support for a male only leadership in the Church:

1.
This issue has been much discussed; and some people have felt that visiting the OT may be of very little benefit to understanding worship in the NT. However, even when you revisit the issue, I'd like to simply say this:

       In the NT, both males and females are priests together (I Pet. 2:5 & 9)

There's nothing wrong with revisiting the OT worship specifications. The only thing I'd advise here is that we don't forget what the NT says about the fact that both MALES and FEMALES are priests in the CHURCH.


[b][color=#000099]My answer.

Most people on this forum have been misquoting 1 Peter 2:5,9. The issue beign discussed in that chapter (and indeed for most of 1st Peter {PLS READ THE WHOLE CHAPTER}) was NOT the appointment of overseers in the congregation, but the need for all christians to change their way of life to conform to that of those who had been ushered into a new convenant
It was discussing the obligation that now rested on all Christians who have become a part of what Peter described as this spiritual priesthood, chosen race, special possesion or holy nation (to emphasize that through their calling, they are apart from the rest of the world in their primary pursuits and way of life.)
Heb 13:5 CLEARLY SHOWS WHAT KIND OF SACRIFICES CHRISTIANS UNDER THE NEW CONVENANT OFFER ie THE SACRIFICES OF PRAISE TO GOD WHICH BOTH CHRISTIAN MEN AND WOMEN HAVE TO RENDER
HOW DOES 1ST PETER CONTRADICT THE DIVINELY ORDAINED INSTRUCTIONS BY PAUL[/color][/b]2.


This is where it gets really interesting. I'd like you to take a very close look at the examples of the following and perhaps offer us WHY God chose these women to do exactly the same as the men did as far as leadership is concerned:

    (a) Micah 6:4 -- God sending Moses, Aaron and Miriam

My Answer

You keep missing the point sister. The three of them were sent by God, Miriam was a Prophetess YES but what role could they play is the question.

Moses and Aaron LED AND HAD OVERSIGHT OVER THE WHOLE ASSEMBLY OF ISRAEL in matters pertaining to Worship.
Miriam of the other hand could lead ONLY FELLOW WOMEN in worship   

(b) Judges 4 & 5 -- Deborah the prophetess

    (c) 2 Kings 22 & 2 Chron. 34 --  Huldah the prophetess

[b][color=#000099]My answer
To address this issue first we have to take a look at the background of the time of the Judges. (Judges Chap 2) It was a time of disunity in which Israelites for the most part were worshiping false gods. They also disregarded God's instructions and were fighting and killing each other. Things were not at their best
Deborah, like Miriam, was also a prophetess who knew the will of God. But What role could she play in comparison to the male Judges?
Male Judges like Samuel, Gidieon presided over the motions of worship. They led and gave final Instructions and the people were subject to their authority. They gave the final go aheads for wars and had authority to PRESIDE OVER ISSUES and even execute people(Judges 7:15-22, 1st Sam Chap 13-15).
Deborah on the other hand having learnt the will of God, called a Male judge and advised him on what to do. The Male Judge was the one who took the lead and presided over the people of Israel in that campaign[/color][/b]

There are definitely more; but you may not have seen them (many people don't, actually). So, please go to those texts and offer an explication as to WHY God chose those women in leadership over His people (contrary to your assertion that God chose only men to lead).

[b]My answer
Please, im begging you to show me (From any part of the bible) where women had authority over, presided and led Men in matters of worship.[/b]


Where is it written that any believer leads the 'pure worship' of NT Christian believers?

My answer

[b]Yes Sister. Hebrews chapter 13:7 and 17 clearly admonishes christians to submit to the authority of the overseers in the congregation who take the lead among them and to imitate their faith[/b]

Please look carefully at what you're trying to infer:

(a) the choosing of the apostles could not be confused for those who were called 'overseers'. These are two distinct issues.

[b]No Sister. John 21:15-17, Acts16:4,5; 2:14; All of Chapter 15,  Chap 2:14, 8:14-17, 10:24-48 clearly shows that when the christian congrgation was formed, it was the Apostles who served as overseers that took the lead in matters pertaining to worship. Later the apostles helped to appoint ,under the directions of the holy spirit, spiritually qualified and mature men as overseers in the various congregation to have oversight of the congregations.[/b]

(b) If you are making out all the disciples to be ONLY MEN, may I ask you what you think of Rom. 16:7 - "Salute Andronicus and Junia, my kinsmen, and my fellowprisoners, who are of note among the apostles, who also were in Christ before me"?

Sister, i never said all disciples of Christ are men. I stated that the apostles who later had oversight over the church and also appointed other qualified men as overseers were all men. {Jesus had women disciples(so it would be outrageous for anybody to say all Jesus disciples are men ) and so did the first century congregation)
(c) How many apostles do you see in the New Testament?

[color=#000099]The ones mentioned in the scriptures only   [/color]


(d) What does Ephesians 4:11 mean to you?

[b]My answer

Paul discussed the fact that all true Christians had one hope, faith and baptism in that chapter and the gifts in men that God had provided to to nourish the Congregation and help the members maintain their faith and that included the apostles, shephards and teachers within the congregation. Christians are as of one body under Christ and within that body there are guidelines set out by the holy spirit on who could perform shepharding and teaching duties. (N/b. In God's eyes a man and his wife are one and is seen as one body. But within that one body, God's word also outlined how authority and headship take place
I don't see how this or Paul contradicts himself or all the other bible passages nor how it supports women having authority over men
This passage also was not discussing the qualifications or requirments of overseers[/b]



What do you understand by the term PRESBUTEROS (πρεσβύτερος)? Is that a term that was used for only male elders?

[color=#000099]Paul admonished older men, older women, younger men and younger women on how to behave. In what context are you talking about and who was he adressing. Was it the overseers of the congregation or who?[/color]