blue-sky:

Ikomi, so your saying if a women was to be your pastor, she has to be ugly?
what happened with your chem teacher?

I would not want my pastor to be ugly, and stop asking obvious questions about my chemistry teacher. What do u want to know, do u want the whole detail or half of it.

ghettochyk:

lol!! no. i;m sure y'll two mixed chemicals and she probably gave u and your class an assignment right?

Chemicals alright. hehehehehehe, your taking me some times back.   It was good mixture.   _awwwwww

God can use anyone be u man or woman

Calf,

I started the thread. I don't have to always comment when others are in charge.

Ikomi, you are triviliasing the issue. The point is can you submit to the spiritual authority of a female leader? Let's keep chatting. It's fun, and educative, you know.

question, where is her husband?

Hello Naira readers,

It is written in the Bible 1st Corinthians 14 vs 34 -36. So if u really read the bible, then its not a matter of sex or gender but it is the word of God.

yes,

there is nothing wrong with it , recently God is calling both males and females, likewise his annointing is on both too

Yes I do attend a church led by a woman pastor, nothing is wrong with it.

Look at 2,000 years ago, after Jesus resurrected, Mary Magdalene led preaching the Word of God.

I have been blessed by women ministers.
I would gladly attend conferences and meetings by Joyce Meyer,Juanita Bynum or Paula White.
these are women ministers but they don't pastor a Church.

Would I attend a church by a woman pastor?
answer:If invited or when there's a program there,yes of course!

Would I be a member?
answer: probably not.

In the same way,I would not be a member of a Church where the male pastor is unmarried.

Nothing wrong in being a female pastor,perhaps,nothing wrong in being an unmarried pastor ,just my preference.

@topic,
the pastor of my church is a woman. She has been in ministry since the tender age of 16. Bishop Rose phd, is as qualified and holy ghost filled as any male pastors.

To answer the question, yes I will attend a church pastor by a woman. As long as the scriptures are being taught, and the church believes in Father, Son and Holy Ghost,

MP007:

question, where is her husband?

wtf? dat aint da ansa to da question now is it?

@ Ikomi
So, u dont think if a guy is handsome that the ladies in the church might lost concentration?
Well, i think women should get more involve in the world 2day. especially since man are seriously misleading people. all these wars in Africa are being caused by men etc, i have seen several nigeria girls having fun instead of arguing about igbo hausa & ypruba like we do.
it really does make sense that women should be a pastor of a church. thx!

Amobi 1:

@ Ikomi
So, u don't think if a guy is handsome that the ladies in the church might lost concentration?
Well, i think women should get more involve in the world 2day. especially since man are seriously misleading people. all these wars in Africa are being caused by men etc, i have seen several nigeria girls having fun instead of arguing about igbo hausa & ypruba like we do.
it really does make sense that women should be a pastor of a church. thx!

Its being scientifically proven that its hard for women to loose their sences at the sight of a handsome man unlike a man who would even leave his strong security hold at the sight of an averagely beautiful woman not to talk of a very beautiful one. I see some guys coming here and saying there is noting wrong with a woman leading the church (For every guy that says that am sure has not had enough experience with women). At the same time it is belived that women are more deceptive than men (No proof to that though). If u get my drift that is where am coming from. Women could hold post like admin and finance they are very good with that, but to lead a church (the height of moral symbol) you could as well go get a chamelion to tell u its true colour.

babyosisi:

Would I attend a church by a woman pastor?
answer:If invited or when there's a program there,yes of course!

Would I be a member?
answer: probably not.

Am sure babyosisi knows exactly what am talking about. Coming out of an experienced woman (even though she was a baby a few years ago), not the naive men I see on this thread.

Amobi 1:

@ Ikomi
So, u don't think if a guy is handsome that the ladies in the church might lost concentration?
Well, i think women should get more involve in the world 2day. especially since man are seriously misleading people. all these wars in Africa are being caused by men etc, i have seen several nigeria girls having fun instead of arguing about igbo hausa & ypruba like we do.
it really does make sense that women should be a pastor of a church. thx!

OMG!!! ARE YOU REALLY A NIGERIAN MAN?!!!!

I still find it amazing that men do not realize its their ego that makes them feel this way(no offense to the real men)
but truth be told men do not like being controlled by a woman, they forget that church business is God's business, if God speaks through woman or a man, does it really matter as long as the proper message is given to the people of the church.

na u no that one ooooooo

proudly:

I still find it amazing that men do not realize its their ego that makes them feel this way(no offense to the real men)

Not ego, make-up. Creative design and order.

proudly:

but truth be told men do not like being controlled by a woman,

As above, women were created for men, not the other way round. Women like to control and manipulate men. It's as much a part of the fallen nature of humans as the male ego. And I'd venture to say it's done mankind more harm !

proudly:

they forget that church business is God's business,

And in God's business men lead under authority from Christ.

proudly:

if God speaks through woman or a man, does it really matter as long as the proper message is given to the people of the church.

Speaking aside, this is about leadership, authority and order as outlined in the scriptures. Roles, and spheres of influence are assigned on a gender basis,, take up any arguements on that with The Almighty and stop trying to argue (manipulate, scheme and decieve) your way into authority that is simply not yours to take (or indeed mens to give ~ although some Ahabs would accede to female duplicity ).

proudly:

does it really matter as long as the proper message is given to the people of the church.

Yes it matters. And if it's the message that matters, why make it a gender issue?

God bless
TV

@TV01,

Christian women are not permitted to take authority over men. It inverts divine order.

Are you telling us that every woman is under the authority of every man? Isn't the scripture clear that it is a wife (woman) that is under the authority of her husband (man)?

TayoD:

@TV01, Are you telling us that every woman is under the authority of every man?

No, I am not. Whatever gave you that idea? I don't subscribe to the "male universal authority over every woman view". The thought is a little bit scary  ! The number of uppity wimmin' on Nairaland is enough to do any mans head in, let alone a single domiciled wifey  !

TayoD:

Isn't the scripture clear that it is a wife (woman) that is under the authority of her husband (man)?

Yes I believe it is, too me anyway.

Man in the home
=> Authority over wife and kids

Men (plural) in the church
=> Servant leadership and modelling to the flock as a whole. Individual women are still to submit to their own husbands regardless of the church structure/hierarchy. Church structure in no way supercedes or subverts family structure (to all you women that try and deal with their husbands by claiming "pastor says", well pastor can kiss my shiny black behind. TV is pastor in his own house, even if no where else ).

God bless
Domestic (Abraham commanded his household, as for me and my house) Pastor
TV

@TV01,

I guess you missed my gist altogether! What I am trying to say is that the issue is about Christ and how the church is supposed to express that mystical figure. In Christ, there is neither male nor female which nullifies your statement that roles are assigned based on gender!

The Christ image was prefigured in the garden of eden only when there was marriage between a male and a female. Now think about it this way. When God create Adam, He said it was not good that the man should be alone because the male Adam was not a representative of the Christ without a wife. God created the woman (the sex is not an issue here) so Adam could become the image of the Christ.

So then, authority over the woman is only exercised by a husband over her which is exactly Paul's argument in the NT. If you tell us that God apoints people into offices based on their sex, then you are teling us that God is carnal in His decision-making. How can the flesh be the basis of God's decision? The authority that the woman is asked to subject herself to in the NT is that of her husband and under no circumstance are we told that the male (because of their gender), are in a better position of grace than the female (because of her gender).

I hope I am clear enough now.

it all depends on who/ what you to lead you! a woman or by spirit?

TayoD:

I guess you missed my gist altogether!

I guess!

TayoD:

What I am trying to say is that the issue is about Christ and how the church is supposed to express that mystical figure.

TayoD, ah, ah, off you go again on one of your "mystical" journeys. I don't know about "Church expressing Mystical Figure (Christ)". I do know about Husband and wife, mirroring Christ and His Church (bride even).

TayoD:

In Christ, there is neither male nor female which nullifies your statement that roles are assigned based on gender!

Presumably you'd follow that line of arguement as you champion same-sex marriages and gay-homosexual sex. After all, there is neither male nor female in Christ  .

TayoD:

The Christ image was prefigured in the garden of eden only when there was marriage between a male and a female. Now think about it this way. When God create Adam, He said it was not good that the man should be alone because the male Adam was not a representative of the Christ without a wife. God created the woman (the sex is not an issue here) so Adam could become the image of the Christ.

Dude, stop it already  .

So then, authority over the woman is only exercised by a husband over her which is exactly Paul's argument in the NT.

Did I say otherwise? Although I wouldn't argue it on your basis above.

If you tell us that God apoints people into offices based on their sex, then you are teling us that God is carnal in His decision-making.

We've had long pow-wows about office, function and role. Now about gender, sex and role. Now I understand why you have to take some of the positions you do.

I'm not saying that God is carnal. John 4 says "God is Spirit". Presumably since gender or sex have no role to play (as we are all one in Christ), why can't women lead homes, or better still be "husbands"? TayoD, please stop, you are starting to alarm me.

The authority that the woman is asked to subject herself to in the NT is that of her husband and under no circumstance are we told that the male (because of their gender), are in a better position of grace than the female (because of her gender).

I outlined my position on Husban/Wife/Church earlier. Very simply too. As for the grace bit, nobody disputes this, but I would suggest that stepping outside God given roles, functions, offices or spheres of influence couls affect the grace on one.

I hope I am clear enough now.

I can't say so authoritatively, but then again, I'm not your husband

God bless
TV

@TV01,

TayoD, ah, ah, off you go again on one of your "mystical" journeys. I don't know about "Church expressing Mystical Figure (Christ)". I do know about Husband and wife, mirroring Christ and His Church (bride even).

By and large, we are saying the same thing even if you choose to make fun at my use of words.

Presumably you'd follow that line of arguement as you champion same-sex marriages and gay-homosexual sex. After all, there is neither male nor female in Christ

Don't give yourself the liberty to pre-empt my action and belief in a lifestyle that is unequivocally condemned by the scriptures. And by your answer, you tacttically side-stepped the point I made.

Dude, stop it already

Stop what!? This is very pertinent to this discussion. We need to make it abundantly clear that God views a married man differently than He does an unmarried man. It is what makes the difference between God's declaration of "very good" and "it is not good."

Did I say otherwise? Although I wouldn't argue it on your basis above.

Okay let's straighten this out.  1 Corinthians 11:3 But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God.. I'm sure you'll agree that the entire passage is actually talking about authority. I also hope you'll agree that the man and woman as mentioned in the passage refers exclusively to a husband and wife. If that is not so, then we must conclude that every man must be the head of any and every woman.

What this means therefore is that in a church setting, no male has any preference over any female whatsoever. Authority is either expressed through the ministerial offices or the marital relationship. Stretching it beyond these two is totally opposed to divine revelation.

We've had long pow-wows about office, function and role. Now about gender, sex and role. Now I understand why you have to take some of the positions you do.

Now that you understand my position, please correct me if I think your position suggests that God's promise to pour down His Spirit upon all flesh in the last days is predicated on gender.

I'm not saying that God is carnal. John 4 says "God is Spirit". Presumably since gender or sex have no role to play (as we are all one in Christ), why can't women lead homes, or better still be "husbands"?

Good question.  The fact that the Christ image which is what marriage typifies still gives pre-eminence to the Head (though we are His body) necessitates this arrangement.  Besides, the role of each is specifically mentioned in scripture as relates to marriage but same is not the case when it comes to the Church.  

TayoD, please stop, you are starting to alarm me.

What alarms me is the thought that God picks his servants based on their gender. It is this kind of argument that made even Christians justify slavery and racial superiority from scriptures.

I outlined my position on Husban/Wife/Church earlier. Very simply too. As for the grace bit, nobody disputes this, but I would suggest that stepping outside God given roles, functions, offices or spheres of influence couls affect the grace on one.

That God gives roles and functions in the church based on sex is untenable. Perhaps, paul was also mistaken when he refred to Junia (a woman) as a leading Apostle - Romans 16:7 - Greetings to Andronicus and Junia, my relatives, who were in prison with me. They are very important apostles. They were believers in Christ before I was.

I can't say so authoritatively, but then again, I'm not your husband

You wish!

@ topic:

A similar topic was raised earlier this year, and shahan did an excellent job in explaining eruditely, the various roles of both men and women in and out of the church.

The Bible is very clear on this issue. In as much as both men and women were created equally, they still have different responsibilities as regards their service towards God. As TV01 said previously, it inverts divine order for a woman to lead a church. That was why Timothy had to remind us that Adam [man] was created before Eve [woman] (1 Tim 2:13). Women sure do have very important roles to perform in the church, but that leadership role is a 'no go' area for them.

So as for the question posed, I also share the same sentiments with babyosisi.

Can I attend a church led by a woman? - If I'm invited, why not?
Can I be a member? - Most probably not.

@ the feminists in the house: This is no chavinism. It's the commandment of God. (1 Cor 14:37).

Regards.

Ikomi:

Its being scientifically proven that its hard for women to loose their sences at the sight of a handsome man

No it hasn't. Stop making up things.

unlike a man who would even leave his strong security hold at the sight of an averagely beautiful woman not to talk of a very beautiful one.

Only if he's a stupid, small-minded sex addict.

I see some guys coming here and saying there is noting wrong with a woman leading the church (For every guy that says that am sure has not had enough experience with women)

Actually, it's apparent that YOU have had little to no experience with women - short of fantasising about them in classes, that is.

At the same time it is belived that women are more deceptive than men (No proof to that though). If u get my drift that is where am coming from.

You're coming from an angle that involves a ridiculous and insane idea about the nature of women (which you admit has no proof), which clearly flies in the face of all the malevolence and historically evident manipulations of men? You think that helps your already weak argument?

Women could hold post like admin and finance they are very good with that, but to lead a church (the height of moral symbol) you could as well go get a chamelion to tell u its true colour.

Why would women be good with administration and finance but not "morality"?

goodguy:

@ the feminists in the house: This is no chavinism. It's the commandment of God. (1 Cor 14:37).
Regards.

It's chauvinism dressed in the rags of religion.

TV01:


As above, women were created for men, not the other way round. quote] Women like to control and manipulate men. It's as much a part of the fallen nature of humans as the male ego. And I'd venture to say it's done mankind more harm !

The underlying philosophy of the religious misogynists.

defend your self with a bible verse where it is said "it is an abormination for women to lead in church"

TayoD:

By and large, we are saying the same thing even if you choose to make fun at my use of words.

You took that very well  . I tender my humble apologies for that outbreak (and previous and subsequent) of facetiuosness.

TayoD:

Don't give yourself the liberty to pre-empt my action and belief in a lifestyle that is unequivocally condemned by the scriptures. And by your answer, you tacttically side-stepped the point I made.

That was not my intention. Again, I apologise if you mis-understood me. My point was that the verse quoted does not serve to strip Christians of gender in any and all situations. That verse is oft quoted to justify a "unisex" approach in church roles, but it's context does not suggest it should be applied to this. It talks more to racial, social, cultural and gender equality, which I for one am not disputing. That's not to deny that God has assigned outlined gender specific roles, responsibilities and sphere's of influence/operation.

TayoD:

This is very pertinent to this discussion. We need to make it abundantly clear that God views a married man differently than He does an unmarried man. It is what makes the difference between God's declaration of "very good" and "it is not good."

TayoD dude, we are no longer in Eden  ! I am not disputing this point, but I think you need to take your esoteric theology and distil it into real-life, day-to-day practical Christian living. The scriptural outline is clear from I Cor, Tim & Titus (and a few ancilliary others). The scriptures are pivotal and unambiguous to our understanding of this issue.

Men are to lead women, women submit to their husbands, women keep silent in church, do not take authority over or teach men in church, church offices are exclusive to males (mature, upright). Quite a few people try to spin them, but no matter how one reads and juxtaposes these verses, honesty demands you reach the same conclusion.

TayoD:

Okay let's straighten this out.  1 Corinthians 11:3 But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God.. I'm sure you'll agree that the entire passage is actually talking about authority. I also hope you'll agree that the man and woman as mentioned in the passage refers exclusively to a husband and wife. If that is not so, then we must conclude that every man must be the head of any and every woman.

Absolutely, I read it as authority. Some (champions of female leaders) read it as origin, either way read in conjunction with other scripture, the conclusion is the same.

Whether you read it as man and wife or, individual men and women or even collectively, other verses (Wives submit to your OWN husbands etc), will not let one conclude universal male authority and nobody is arguing that.

TayoD:

What this means therefore is that in a church setting, no male has any preference over any female whatsoever. Authority is either expressed through the ministerial offices or the marital relationship. Stretching it beyond these two is totally opposed to divine revelation.

Not strictly true, although I see I see your point and since I'm being anal this morning I'll clarify. Even in a church setting, the husbands authority over his wife holds and is not "left at home". The family takes precedence over the church (IMHO). So, I wouldn't strictly say "no male over any female" if there is a spousal union. So I agree with your second sentence, but that is neither here nor there as we are discussing if women can occupy said ministerial offices, and to my understanding (no wisecracks here  ), that's a NO! Will a mature Christian man submit to someone else's wife? Then it's not to far a stretch to ask him to submit to his own wife is it? It's convoluted at best. So I also agree with your 3rd sentence, but not your inherent implication that women can hold office. "if a man desires the office". It's not for women to covet such.

Now that you understand my position, please correct me if I think your position suggests that God's promise to pour down His Spirit upon all flesh in the last days is predicated on gender.

Stand corrected, I don't. But why do people try and read various verses into church structure, except the very scriptures that talk directly about it?

Good question.  The fact that the Christ image which is what marriage typifies still gives pre-eminence to the Head (though we are His body) necessitates this arrangement.  Besides, the role of each is specifically mentioned in scripture as relates to marriage but same is not the case when it comes to the Church.

Right on marriage (home), wrong on church, and doubly wrong when you suggest there are no scriptural specifics around gender roles in a church setting.

What alarms me is the thought that God picks his servants based on their gender. It is this kind of argument that made even Christians justify slavery and racial superiority from scriptures.

No, it was the unregenerated sin nature, lack of biblical understanding and sheer ignorance that made so called Christians attempt to justify slavery (and war) via scripture.

That God gives roles and functions in the church based on sex is untenable. Perhaps, paul was also mistaken when he refred to Junia (a woman) as a leading Apostle - Romans 16:7 - Greetings to Andronicus and Junia, my relatives, who were in prison with me. They are very important apostles. They were believers in Christ before I was.

TayoD, you no dey fear  . Surely you expect this particularly weak return to get smashed back with all the ferocity and contempt it deserves (even you under-arm serving paddy - Bro' Analytical - wouldn't attempt this  !).

Junia was "of note" amongst the apostles, not one of them. Junia is/was not and nowhere listed as an apostle (however you choose to categorise the apostles). And Junia' gender is at best debatable.
Brother please! Important ko, impotent ni, abeg.

You wish!

No I most certainly don't
I'll post a pic of my babe, then all gender/role confusion will leave you immediately  !

God bless sir
TV

can you enter a bus driven by a woman, can you live in country governed by a lady, can you work in company with a woman MD, can you recieve treatment from a female doctor, can you get arrested by a female police officer, hmmmn! the list is limitless think man, who made and gae them these abilities - GOD.

are we still on this?

Right from the garden of Eden, man has been trying to get back at woman for what happened. (Genesis 3 ). So  those of you guys that feel you can't attend a Church led by a woman, know that the "the get-back virus" is still running in your hard drive. The bible says "in the presence of God there is liberty". Liberty from spirit of hatred, spirit of insecurity, spirit of "get-back" etc. So in the name of Jesus, receive LIBERTY. Amen and Amen. Hallelujah!!!.

“Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience, as also saith the law. And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church.” I Cor. 14:34-35.

goodguy:

@ topic:

A similar topic was raised earlier this year, and shahan did an excellent job in explaining eruditely, the various roles of both men and women in and out of the church.

I visited those links and came away refreshed. Enjoyed Analytical's insight as well; and the various challenges offered by other contributors in that thread.