Wizardofoz:

[size=15pt]It is about holding our politicians to higher standard. Demanding more from them and forcing them to justify their actions, and advancing our democracy.

Replacing the more articulate Dr. Mamora with Remi Tinubu isnt just wrong, it is morally contemptuous. We are short changing ourselves with moves like that![/size]

very well put 

Wizardofoz:

That said, we cant compare Remi Tinubu with Hillary Clinton.

Education apart. Hillary from Yale and Tinubu from Adeyemi, very irrelevant really.

What have they both achieved after leaving school?

Remi has no verifiable work history. Hillary on the other hand since she left school, from Day 1, started shattering glass ceilings for women. Too many firsts for Hillary to mention.

Hillary actually worked her way to public life.

Secondly, when Hillary was in the White house, she single handedly wrote the first Universal health care bill that was defeated by the Republicans in 1992. And it was that Bill that Mitt Romney used as his template for his universal health care policy when he was Governor of Massachusetts.

The Obama Care that Obama forced down congress neck was, for all intents, Hillary Clinton’s  health care plan. It was supposed to achieve universal coverage. How? Individual mandates. Hillary’s idea is a core provision inside the current Senate and House bills. She just wasnt a dycck sucker. She is a woman, like no other. One of the best minds in America, and indeed, in the world today.

Home Life: Hillary has raised a grown up, well brought up, Chelsea who is now the cynosure of every one. She did that while juggling professional life and politics with her marriage. Remi's children?

My point: Remi does not in anyway deserve to be forced on Lagosian the way BAT did. And trying to justify it by comparing her scant/unverifiable academic and work history with Hillary's is an insult to Hillary's pristine legacy.

Well put. God we deliver SW

I suspect much of the anti-remi rhetoric is simply a cloak for being anti-yoruba women.

tpia@:

I suspect much of the anti-remi rhetoric is simply a cloak for being anti-yoruba women.

No it is really about Remi or Yoruba women( which I respect and love) but about Tinubu and his "Ruling family"

Wizardofoz:

That said, we cant compare Remi Tinubu with Hillary Clinton.

Education apart. Hillary from Yale and Tinubu from Adeyemi, very irrelevant really.

What have they both achieved after leaving school?

Remi has no verifiable work history. Hillary on the other hand since she left school, from Day 1, started shattering glass ceilings for women. Too many firsts for Hillary to mention.

Hillary actually worked her way to public life.

Secondly, when Hillary was in the White house, she single handedly wrote the first Universal health care bill that was defeated by the Republicans in 1992. And it was that Bill that Mitt Romney used as his template for his universal health care policy when he was Governor of Massachusetts.

The Obama Care that Obama forced down congress neck was, for all intents, Hillary Clinton’s  health care plan. It was supposed to achieve universal coverage. How? Individual mandates. Hillary’s idea is a core provision inside the current Senate and House bills. She just wasnt a dycck sucker. She is a woman, like no other. One of the best minds in America, and indeed, in the world today.

Home Life: Hillary has raised a grown up, well brought up, Chelsea who is now the cynosure of every one. She did that while juggling professional life and politics with her marriage. Remi's children?  

My point: Remi does not in anyway deserve to be forced on Lagosian the way BAT did. And trying to justify it by comparing her scant/unverifiable academic and work history with Hillary's is an insult to Hillary's pristine legacy.

I'll ignore the rest of your ignorant, sexist and misogynistic rant.

His wife scored a land slide victory in her district with hundreds of thousands of votes, so what happened? You mean Tinubu forced hundreds of thousands of people to the polls on behalf of his wife?

Lagosians voted for his wife, not Tinubu.

Stop walking on your brains for your own good.

step1:

Well put. God we deliver SW

God don deliver the SW already, you should worry about God delivering you from follow follow and rumor mongering like a freeking market woman.

I thought we already resolved this here https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-576442.64.html

The Ooni can give his Asiwaju title to whomsoever he wishes, although I think Tinubu is still evolving, I'll wait a few more years and see how he'll lead and inspire this regional development thing.

But as for the Aare Ona Kakanfo, I'll prefer it goes to Soyinka of Ake. We don't need to always choose political warriors, cultural warriors are actually more important at this stage of our evolution.

Wizardofoz:

I totally understand!

She did her NCE at Adeyemi College of education, which I accept is true. But the notion that she actually completed her studies at Ife? I seriously doubt it.

The whole Idea that she went to ife surfaced during her senate run. It was well known in Lagos during Tinubu's era that she only had NCE certificate. Of course, there is nothing wrong with that, but to drop Mamora, a former Lagos-State speaker and MBBS holder from "Oba Awon University" for her, they had to justify that move; hence, the whole She went to ife crap!

Who were her classmates at Ife?

Tinubu replaced Mamora with Gbenga Ashafa not Remi Tinubu. Gbenga Ashafa was the man in charge of lands in Lagos and being prepped to take over as lagos state Governor come 2015 when the Epe axis is supposed to take over as Governor. that's the 2015 plan but I know Ikuforiji will fancy his chances against him.

Remi represents Lagos central.

jacobs123:


Tinubu replaced Mamora with Gbenga Ashafa not Remi Tinubu. Gbenga Ashafa was the man in charge of lands in Lagos and being prepped to take over as lagos state Governor come 2015 when the Epe axis is supposed to take over as Governor. that's the 2015 plan but I know Ikuforiji will fancy his chances against him.

Remi represents Lagos central.

Anyway, compare Remis credentials with this:

Name: SEN.MUSE MUNIRUDEEN ADEKUNLE
Date of Birth: 17/05/1939
Marital Status: Married
Political Party Affiliation: Action Congress ( AC )
State: Lagos
Senatorial District: Lagos Central
Date Elected 29/05/2007
Seat Up Date: 29/05/2011
Education: Associate Chartered Institute Of Transport,London.
Associate Institute Of Traffic Administration,London
Occupation: [b]Maritime Transport Economis[/b]t
Previous Elected Office: Distinguished Senator of the 6th (2007 -2011) Assembly
Legistlative Experience:
Committee Membership: States & Local Government,Solid Minerals,Police Affairs,National Planning,Marine Transport,Interior Affairs,Air Force.
Previous Appointments: Chairman,Apapa Local Government.
N.P.A. London Representative.
Port Manager Container Terminal, APAPA

Awards & Honours:

Interest(s) Actively Taking Part In Debates That Would Ultimately Improve And Give Dividends Of Democracy To Nigerians
Achievement(s) Ensuring That Necessary Areas That Need Amendments Of Our Are Carried Out. Also To Ensure Some Form Of Autonomy For Local Government In This Dispensation.


So he actually had a job prior to going to the Senate. Case closed!

Remi Tinubu is a step down!

Katsumoto:

Orunmila baba Agboniregun
Agboniregun baba Ifa

According to some oral traditions, Oduduwa met Agboniregun (also known as Setilu) at Ile Ife. If we accept that Orunmila is the progenitor of the Yoruba people and Oduduwa with his sons created the original 16 Yoruba kingdoms. Odudwa was also the first Ooni. It is on this basis that I refer to Ooni as the spiritual head.


I am not disputing that the Alaafin can confer the title Aare ona Kakanfo. What I am saying is that the title, today, holds only over Oyo because the other kingdoms WON independence from Oyo. So the king can only confer a title on lands over which he HOLDS sway and not over which he HELD.

No Katsumoto. There is no evidence that the title of Ooni was in existence during the time of Oduduwa. The title came into being much later after all the direct sons of Oduduwa had left Ife. And of course it is not arguable that Ooni is not a direct descendant of Oduduwa. If at all Oduduwa had a title, then it must have been the Alaafin of Ife. The title moved with Oranmiyan to Oyo and gave him the authority over other Yoruba towns in a similar way that the Nigerian government can move the capital from Abuja to Ibadan or Calabar.

On another note, how come the argument that you deployed to say that Alaafin cannot 'today' hold sway over Yorubaland was not used to say that Ooni cannot be the spiritual head of the Yorubas?

Last I heard Obasanjo lobbied Alaafin for the title which means either does not believe in the ancestral enemies or he is suicidal

Ebora Owu gan o easy! Awon ancestral enemies will not find it easy

[b] Re: Make Tinubu The Asiwaju Of Yorubaland – Group To Ooni
« #31 on: Yesterday at 03:44:46 PM »

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Quote from: alj_harem on Yesterday at 01:23:17 PM
I am highly disappointed in your comment
what is the difference between bankole, tinubu and bode george

tell me and don't insult




One was convicted and sent to jail

One just got arrested for corruption and embezzlement

Tinubu is yet to be confronted with or arrested for anything under the laws of Nigeria

The difference is clear, but many like because of their silly bad bele and lack of understanding and ability to reason logically like an adult throws around ignorant accusations and baseless nonsense.

Tinubu-

Tinubu via NADECO fought, stake his life on the line and gave us democracy

Tinubu as the governor of Lagos state showed leadership and courage by not selling out under PDP OBJ pressure, he refused to back down and he protected the state of Lagos for the people of Lagos.

Lagos is not in the hands of the ever corrupt and incompetent PDP because of Tinubu

Lagos is the shinning example of great leadership because of Tinubu

His great leadership and sense of wisdom gave us the best and the most credible governor in Nigeria

What many Lagosians and Nigerians in general love about Lagos state in terms of infrastructure and policies was designed and put in place by Tunubu

Many people gripe about Tinubu owning Alpha Beta which is absolutely irrelevant considering the fact that the same people attributes the success of the state to it's ability to generate huge IGR.

The question now is, who set the stage for the huge IGR? Whose knowledge and wisdom is making it possible for Fashola to be able to do all the great things he's doing in Lagos because of the huge IGR?

Shouldn't many of these misguided people and their states be advocating and looking their own Alpha Beta to revolutionize their tax system and generate enough money to do what the Lagos state government is doing or at least something similar to help their people?

The Yoruba people suffered under lousy and shameful PDP leadership, many of our own disgraced the Yoruba people and set us back. Tinubu single-handedly fought the same evil people with his smarts and wisdom to wrestle Yoruba land from the hands of the hands of the PDP, we basically got rid of all the corrupt and evil forces in Yoruba land.

Tinubu gave us a news sense of pride and joy, he gave us a new beginning, a defined path and way forward.

Today, many in Nigeria are celebrating the arrest of Bankole. The EFCC was able to arrest Bankole because he was defeated in the last election, he lost his powerful seat, he lost his immunity, it all happened because of one man/Tinubu. By orchestrating the defeat of many of these PDP politicians in the SW, he made it easy for them to be arrested and prosecuted.

Good for Nigeria that we have a vibrant, credible and powerful opposition in Nigeria today and the leader of that opposition is Tinubu

This same opposition party/ACN is the only opposition party in Nigeria we are all depending on to keep the PDP in check

Trashing Tinubu is something you are free to do, but it doesn't mean you know anything about the man, it dosn't mean you know what you are trashing.

Your petty and misguided actions basically reflects your own ignorance, lack of depth, sense and good judgment.



I see you runjing all over the place calling the man a criminal, but since you asked me a question and I answered you question.

I need you to tell us what made him a criminal.

What crime/s was he arrested and convicted for?

What proof and evidence of wrong doing do you have beyond hearsay and rumors?
[/b]





u have said it all ,

Tinubu cannot be a leader of the Yorubas. He lacks the moral values to ascend to such height. It will be a dangerous thing to glorify a man with so much weight of embezzlement, thuggery, perjury, forgery, drug trafficking and corruption in all ramifications as a leader.

Yes, Tinubu fought PDP to a standstill in the South West to our amusement but I still don't see how that "dirty fight" should qualify someone for an office that defines our moral and cultural values in the South West. The posts I have read on this forum just lent credence to the fact that many of us have a perverted sense of values. The same reason we give national titles to rogues! Must the title go to a politician? Must aspirants to this position have a resounding resume of political achievements? What about people who have distinguished themselves in business and have contributed to the economic base of the Yoruba people?

Now let us be factual on who is really doing what to advance course of the Yoruba race. Do the Yoruba politicians in PDP/other political parties other than ACN work against the interest of the Yorubas in anyway? Is Tinubu's politics in ACN premised on liberating the Yoruba race? Is it not just a game of power i.e. who controls/get what? What is in Tinubu's political philosophy/the ACN manifesto that specifically addresses a problem that is peculiar to the Yorubas such that it makes the ACN/Tinubu pan-Yoruba?

About the Alaafin and his authority on Yorubaland, KATSUMOTO in my opinion made sense more than anyone else. The Alaafin's authority over Yoruba people which it earned not by right but by force and coercion of other Yoruba kingdoms in pre-colonial Oyo Empire has since withered since the demise of the Empire in the mid 19th century and the consequent independence of many Kingdoms under its rule. The Alaafin has been trying to resuscitate that dead empire to no avail. The Oyo kingdom was not the first in Yorubaland. There was Owu, Ake and some other kingdoms that predates Oyo before Oyo later dominated them through military might. The Oyo Empire is dead and any effort to resuscitate it will only invite anarchy. Some of us need to get lessons on history.

The Alaafin is not greater than the Ooni. And to put it correctly, the Ooni as KATSUMOTO clearly pointed out is the spiritual head of the Yoruba race because Oduduwa as Yoruba mythology puts it, descended from heaven with over 400 deities. Even though many historians dispute this myth, it is the same story that the Alaafin will tell you of his ancestor - Oduduwa. It follows therefore that his successor in title, whether hsi direct son or not, holds forth as the Spiritual head of the Yorubas. This understanding was why Yoruba kingdoms of old did not wage war against Ife and the only kingdom that dared it - the Owu kingdom, suffered irreparable consequences. It was for the same reasons that the Colonial masters confered the title of Governor General of the Western Region on the Ooni of that time - Sir Adesoji Aderemi. That confirment of the title on the Ooni was concluded on historical facts made available to the British by both the Alaafin and other Yoruba Kings of those days.

Another faceless group making noise all around. What concerns "Saving the Masses and Children" with politics?

X-factoria:

Tinubu cannot be a leader of the Yorubas. He lacks the moral values to ascend to such height. It will be a dangerous thing to glorify a man with so much weight of embezzlement, thuggery, perjury, forgery, drug trafficking and corruption in all ramifications as a leader.

Yes, Tinubu fought PDP to a standstill in the South West to our amusement but I still don't see how that "dirty fight" should qualify someone for an office that defines our moral and cultural values in the South West. The posts I have read on this forum just lent credence to the fact that many of us have a perverted sense of values. The same reason we give national titles to rogues! Must the title go to a politician? Must aspirants to this position have a resounding resume of political achievements? What about people who have distinguished themselves in business and have contributed to the economic base of the Yoruba people?

Now let us be factual on who is really doing what to advance course of the Yoruba race. Do the Yoruba politicians in PDP/other political parties other than ACN work against the interest of the Yorubas in anyway? Is Tinubu's politics in ACN premised on liberating the Yoruba race? Is it not just a game of power i.e. who controls/get what? What is in Tinubu's political philosophy/the ACN manifesto that specifically addresses a problem that is peculiar to the Yorubas such that it makes the ACN/Tinubu pan-Yoruba?

About the Alaafin and his authority on Yorubaland, KATSUMOTO in my opinion made sense more than anyone else. The Alaafin's authority over Yoruba people which it earned not by right but by force and coercion of other Yoruba kingdoms in pre-colonial Oyo Empire has since withered since the demise of the Empire in the mid 19th century and the consequent independence of many Kingdoms under its rule. The Alaafin has been trying to resuscitate that dead empire to no avail. The Oyo kingdom was not the first in Yorubaland. There was Owu, Ake and some other kingdoms that predates Oyo before Oyo later dominated them through military might. The Oyo Empire is dead and any effort to resuscitate it will only invite anarchy. Some of us need to get lessons on history.

The Alaafin is not greater than the Ooni. And to put it correctly, the Ooni as KATSUMOTO clearly pointed out is the spiritual head of the Yoruba race because Oduduwa as Yoruba mythology puts it, descended from heaven with over 400 deities. Even though many historians dispute this myth, it is the same story that the Alaafin will tell you of his ancestor - Oduduwa. It follows therefore that his successor in title, whether hsi direct son or not, holds forth as the Spiritual head of the Yorubas. This understanding was why Yoruba kingdoms of old did not wage war against Ife and the only kingdom that dared it - the Owu kingdom, suffered irreparable consequences. It was for the same reasons that the Colonial masters confered the title of Governor General of the Western Region on the Ooni of that time - Sir Adesoji Aderemi. That confirment of the title on the Ooni was concluded on historical facts made available to the British by both the Alaafin and other Yoruba Kings of those days.

Good attempt there but that is not the end of this matter.

Please note that the rivalry between the Alaafin and the Ooni is a modern day matter. It has not always been there and it is a 20th century phenomenon. Check out the following facts:

1. Sir Lugard's political memoranda of 1917 detailed the hierarchy of all the traditional rulers in the north and the south. If you say Johnson (the historian who wrote the book 'History of the Yorubas') had bias for Oyo, go and see C. R. Neeving, who stated unequivocally and authoritatively that the Alaafin is the supreme oba in Yorubaland. Also, check Johnson's book to see the treaty signed by the Alaafin in 1881 and 1888, stating, ‘I, Adeyemi I, Alaafin of Oyo, King of Yorubaland.’

2.Oyo province was constituted on January 14 1914 and Ife and Ijesa were all under Oyo Province. Furthermore, Oyo Province was broken down into three, namely Oyo Division of Oyo Province; Ibadan Division of Oyo Province and Ife/Ijesa Division [/b]of Oyo Province. And principal obas in these areas were designated [b]district heads.

In Ibadan, the Olubadan was the district head of Ibadan, Ooni was the district head of Ife, Orangun was the district head of Ila and Owa was the district head of Igbomina. The Alaafin was the paramount head of the whole province, and in ranking, the Aremo, who was the crown prince of the Alaafin, was the district head of Oyo Province. Twenty district courts were opened for the 20 districts in the province, and the Alaafin never sat in any of the district courts, but at the court of appeal over the 20 district courts.

3. When there was a problem between Ife and Ijesa, Sir John Macpherson asked the Alaafin to intervene and not the Ooni. The Alaafin sent Are Ilugbohun and Alapini and a number of Oyomesi (his chiefs)to go and adjudicate. The boundary fixed by the Alaafin at Enuowa still subsists till today. The same thing applies for the dispute between Ife and Ede, Alaafin’s ruling still subsists till today. When Ibadan and Egba quarrelled over Bakasari, the Alaafin settled it and said Bakasari belonged to Ibadan, and he made all the parties to sign an undertaking.

4. Also note that the first Alake in Abeokuta, Okukenu, was a Sagbua, a chief of the Alaafin. Check page 15 of the book, "Egba and her neighbours", written by an eminent professor of history, Professor Saburi Biobaku. He wrote that the Egba forest lay within the remotest part of the Alaafin empire. And how the Alaafin superimposed his authority over the Alake and all other Egba traditional chiefs is acknowledged.

5. Again, the issue of Alaafin vs Ooni is a 20th century issue that was sired when Awolowo emerged the premier of the old Western Region. That was when the government propped up the Ooni. And the only way they could do it successfully then was to get rid of the Alaafin, which they did by deposing the Alaafin, and Ooni Adesoji Aderemi on August 8, 1960 was appointed the governor of the Western Region.

6. Under the Clifford Constitution in 1922, two obas represented the whole of Nigeria at the legislative council – the Sultan of Sokoto and the Alaafin of Oyo. The Alaafin represented the entire south in Lagos.

7. As I have stated earlier, the Alaafin simply moved his throne and Yoruba capital from Ife to Oyo. Simple. The Ooni was appeasing the deities on Alaafin's behalf and he (Ooni) got his name/appellation of 'Adimula' from the resources that he (Alaafin) was sending to him to perform this function, hence 'Adimu Ola' became shortened to 'Adimula'.

8. Also, do you want to educate us about how the title of 'Ooni' came to be in the first place? Please do remember the progression from 'Owoni' (which was documented in the records of the early part of 20th century to 'Ooni' today.

What do all of these prove?

For the sake of posterity, let's try to accept history as it is. It's history anyway. And please for your information, I am not from Oyo but we just have to reckon with these verifiable issues as they were or as they evolved.

On a personal note, I do not think that the traditional rulers are still quite relevant today but that should not make us turn the facts upside down.

Cheers.

Pukkah:

No Katsumoto. There is no evidence that the title of Ooni was in existence during the time of Oduduwa.  The title came into being much later after all the direct sons of Oduduwa had left Ife. And of course it is not arguable that Ooni is not a direct descendant of Oduduwa.  If at all Oduduwa had a title, then it must have been the Alaafin of Ife.  The title moved with Oranmiyan to Oyo and gave him the authority over other Yoruba towns in a similar way that the Nigerian government can move the capital from Abuja to Ibadan or Calabar.

On another note, how come the argument that you deployed to say that Alaafin cannot 'today' hold sway over Yorubaland was not used to say that Ooni cannot be the spiritual head of the Yorubas?

It appears that your yoruba history is not complete. There were Yoruba kings at Ife before Oduduwa; the king before Oduduwa was called Orelu-ore. After Oduduwa, the first ruler was Osangangan Obamakin. You are focusing too much on the name when you should be focusing on the RULER. Tell us, what was the name of the King at Oyo before Oranmiyan? You can't because there was no king at Oyo. On what basis should Oyo hold sway over Ife when Ife existed before Oyo? We know Oduduwa had one son, Okanbi, from his primary wife, Omonide. We also know that Okanbi had 7 sons through his primary wife. But there were 16 original kingdoms. Is it inconceivable that the remaining 9 kingdoms were founded by sons from slaves, including the Ooni?

Secondly, please do not bring illogical conjecture to this debate. How could the king at Ife be called Alaafin simply because you want to extend Oyo control to Ife. Oduduwa never gave authority to Oranmiyan over his older brothers. Oyo derived supremacy through military might. Afterall, Oranmiyan was the last grandson. Oyo was actually one of the last original Yoruba kingdoms because when Oranmiyan returned from Bini, all his older brothers had left and had established their own kingdoms. The kingdom that was given to Oranmiyan was Bini but he left Bini. Alaafin supporters always come up with this Oranmiyan had right over other kingdoms when we know that not to be true. Oranmiyan's original kingdom was Bini.

I will, and I trust a good number of Yoruba minus people from Oyo, always accept the place of Ife in Yoruba history. Ife was the first Yoruba kingdom. Oduduwa met Agboniregun (setilu), baba Ifa, at Ife. Orunmila was the father of Agboniregun. That connection was pre-ordained. The spiritualness of Ife can not be contested. Even if you argue that Ooni was not a blood son of Oduduwa. The establishment of Yoruba kingdoms started from Ife and not Oyo. If Oyo wants the Yoruba to think otherwise, it should re-conquer the rest of Yorubaland again, if it can.
What political power does Oyo have? Nada
What military power does Oyo have? Nada
What spiritual power does Oyo have? Nada

Or should we continue to respect Oyo because it reigned supreme before the 19th century? Why not Owu then since Owu was was the first kingdom to defeat Oyo? Did the Olowu not capture Alaafin Ajaka (first Alaafin after Oranmiyan)?

Pukkah:

Good attempt there but that is not the end of this matter.

Please note that the rivalry between the Alaafin and the Ooni is a modern day matter. It has not always been there and it is a 20th century phenomenon. Check out the following facts:

1. Sir Lugard's political memoranda of 1917 detailed the hierarchy of all the traditional rulers in the north and the south. If you say Johnson (the historian who wrote the book 'History of the Yorubas') had bias for Oyo, go and see C. R. Neeving, who stated unequivocally and authoritatively that the Alaafin is the supreme oba in Yorubaland. Also, check Johnson's book to see the treaty signed by the Alaafin in 1881 and 1888, stating, ‘I, Adeyemi I, Alaafin of Oyo, King of Yorubaland.’

2.Oyo province was constituted on January 14 1914 and Ife and Ijesa were all under Oyo Province. Furthermore, Oyo Province was broken down into three, namely Oyo Division of Oyo Province; Ibadan Division of Oyo Province and Ife/Ijesa Division [/b]of Oyo Province. And principal obas in these areas were designated [b]district heads.

In Ibadan, the Olubadan was the district head of Ibadan, Ooni was the district head of Ife, Orangun was the district head of Ila and Owa was the district head of Igbomina. The Alaafin was the paramount head of the whole province, and in ranking, the Aremo, who was the crown prince of the Alaafin, was the district head of Oyo Province. Twenty district courts were opened for the 20 districts in the province, and the Alaafin never sat in any of the district courts, but at the court of appeal over the 20 district courts.

3. When there was a problem between Ife and Ijesa, Sir John Macpherson asked the Alaafin to intervene and not the Ooni. The Alaafin sent Are Ilugbohun and Alapini and a number of Oyomesi (his chiefs)to go and adjudicate. The boundary fixed by the Alaafin at Enuowa still subsists till today. The same thing applies for the dispute between Ife and Ede, Alaafin’s ruling still subsists till today. When Ibadan and Egba quarrelled over Bakasari, the Alaafin settled it and said Bakasari belonged to Ibadan, and he made all the parties to sign an undertaking.

4. Also note that the first Alake in Abeokuta, Okukenu, was a Sagbua, a chief of the Alaafin. Check page 15 of the book, "Egba and her neighbours", written by an eminent professor of history, Professor Saburi Biobaku. He wrote that the Egba forest lay within the remotest part of the Alaafin empire. And how the Alaafin superimposed his authority over the Alake and all other Egba traditional chiefs is acknowledged.

5. Again, the issue of Alaafin vs Ooni is a 20th century issue that was sired when Awolowo emerged the premier of the old Western Region. That was when the government propped up the Ooni. And the only way they could do it successfully then was to get rid of the Alaafin, which they did by deposing the Alaafin, and Ooni Adesoji Aderemi on August 8, 1960 was appointed the governor of the Western Region.

6. Under the Clifford Constitution in 1922, two obas represented the whole of Nigeria at the legislative council – the Sultan of Sokoto and the Alaafin of Oyo. The Alaafin represented the entire south in Lagos.

7. As I have stated earlier, the Alaafin simply moved his throne and Yoruba capital from Ife to Oyo. Simple. The Ooni was appeasing the deities on Alaafin's behalf and he (Ooni) got his name/appellation of 'Adimula' from the resources that he (Alaafin) was sending to him to perform this function, hence 'Adimu Ola' became shortened to 'Adimula'.

8. Also, do you want to educate us about how the title of 'Ooni' came to be in the first place? Please do remember the progression from 'Owoni' (which was documented in the records of the early part of 20th century to 'Ooni' today.

What do all of these prove?

For the sake of posterity, let's try to accept history as it is. It's history anyway. And please for your information, I am not from Oyo but we just have to reckon with these verifiable issues as they were or as they evolved.

On a personal note, I do not think that the traditional rulers are still quite relevant today but that should not make us turn the facts upside down.

Cheers.

You are basically telling us that Alaafin's superiority is based on colonial masters wishes. I am sorry but I can not accept that. You are talking about constitution and memoranda as if they count in establishing kingdoms. Does the Queen of England derive her status from rulers in Germany or France? Her title is still derived from the Norman conquest of England in 1066. Why don't the saxons lay claim to the throne of England? Afterall, they were there before the Normans. Or better still, why not the romans who were there before the Saxons?

At the risk of sounding like a broken record. Alaafin's hold over the rest of the Yoruba started in 1780 when the Egba won independence from Oyo through Lisabi and was completed when Ibadan established itself as the most advanced state with the defeat of Ilorin and the Fulani at Osogbo in 1840. Oyo was powerless all through the Ibadan expansionist wars and the final war in Yoruba land, the Kiriji wars in 1886. Where was Oyo when all the powerful Yoruba states were warring in the Kiriji wars? They were at home. because they weren't relevant. Where was Oyo when all the Yoruba states were signing the peace treaty in Lagos in 1886?

@ Pukkah:

The early colonial recognition of the Alaafin and his self proclamation as the Oba of Yorubaland do not prove anything. In fact, that self proclamation lends credence to the desperation of the Alaafin to keep living in the past.

Some important questions you should answer to give you a clearer picture of what should be the background to establishing whose authority should be supreme between the Ooni and Alaafin is this:

- DID THE ALAAFIN ESTABLISH THOSE KINGDOMS YOU LISTED AS BEING CONSTITUENTS OF THE OLD OYO EMPIRE??

- IS OYO EMPIRE THE OLDEST KINGDOM IN YORUBALAND??

- WERE THERE OTHER KINGDOMS/TOWNS EXISTING BEFORE THE EMERGENCE OR FOUNDING OF OYO EMPIRE??

- WAS IT THE ALAAFIN THAT ESTABLISHED THE KINGSHIP IN THOSE KINGDOMS??

- DID THESE TOWNS/KINGDOMS WILLINGLY SUBMIT TO THE AUTHORITY OF THE ALAAFIN OR DID THE ALAAFIN IMPOSE HIMSELF ON THEM BECAUSE OF HIS MILITARY MIGHT??

If you can answer these questions objectively, then you will be able to see my conlusion that: IF THE POWER WITH WHICH THE ALAAFIN ENSURED THE SUBMISSION OF THESE TOWNS AND KINGDOMS IS NO LONGER THERE, THEN THE ALAAFIN HAS LOST ALL ITS RIGHTS ON THOSE PEOPLE.

Coercion of one Kingdom by a powerful Kingdom in those days was by war and conquest. IT WAS NOT BY RIGHT. That is the mistake people like you are still making. If it was by right, then the Alaafin would have a say in who becomes the rulers of those Kingdoms till today. Your assertion can be likened to saying that Nigeria is still under British authority till today because they once exercised administrative authority over us. You and I know that that is false. If Alaafin ever had rights over all Yorubaland, that right seized since those Kingdoms stopped taking orders from Oyo and declare themselves independent.

If we must rank all Kings in Yorubaland today, we would not rank by who conquered who at what time but by history and age. The Ooni would rank highest because that throne is Oduduwa's and it is the oldest throne in Yorubaland.

Katsumoto:

It appears that your yoruba history is not complete. There were Yoruba kings at Ife before Oduduwa; the king before Oduduwa was called Orelu-ore. After Oduduwa, the first ruler was Osangangan Obamakin. You are focusing too much on the name when you should be focusing on the RULER. Tell us, what was the name of the King at Oyo before Oranmiyan? You can't because there was no king at Oyo. On what basis should Oyo hold sway over Ife when Ife existed before Oyo? We know Oduduwa had one son, Okanbi, from his primary wife, Omonide. We also know that Okanbi had 7 sons through his primary wife. But there were 16 original kingdoms. Is it inconceivable that the remaining 9 kingdoms were founded by sons from slaves, including the Ooni?

Secondly, please do not bring illogical conjecture to this debate. How could the king at Ife be called Alaafin simply because you want to extend Oyo control to Ife. Oduduwa never gave authority to Oranmiyan over his older brothers. Oyo derived supremacy through military might. Afterall, Oranmiyan was the last grandson. Oyo was actually one of the last original Yoruba kingdoms because when Oranmiyan returned from Bini, all his older brothers had left and had established their own kingdoms. The kingdom that was given to Oranmiyan was Bini but he left Bini. Alaafin supporters always come up with this Oranmiyan had right over other kingdoms when we know that not to be true. Oranmiyan's original kingdom was Bini.

I will, and I trust a good number of Yoruba minus people from Oyo, always accept the place of Ife in Yoruba history. Ife was the first Yoruba kingdom. Oduduwa met Agboniregun (setilu), baba Ifa, at Ife. Orunmila was the father of Agboniregun. That connection was pre-ordained. The spiritualness of Ife can not be contested. Even if you argue that Ooni was not a blood son of Oduduwa. The establishment of Yoruba kingdoms started from Ife and not Oyo. If Oyo wants the Yoruba to think otherwise, it should re-conquer the rest of Yorubaland again, if it can.
What political power does Oyo have? Nada
What military power does Oyo have? Nada
What spiritual power does Oyo have? Nada

Or should we continue to respect Oyo because it reigned supreme before the 19th century? Why not Owu then since Owu was was the first kingdom to defeat Oyo? Did the Olowu not capture Alaafin Ajaka (first Alaafin after Oranmiyan)?

I salute your knowledge of history. Please keep it up!

Tinubu does not deserve to be yoruba leader, therefore go and bury that agenda, what struggle has Tinubu single handedly fought for yorubas?A right thinking yoruba man should be able to know that Tinubu did all he does when he was a Governonr of lagos state by appointing different people from different state not because he loves yorubas but because of his hidden political agenda, Tinubu also is a double mouthed politician that does not deserve to be a leader yoruba leader, when Goodluck jonathan was campaigning for president, Tinubu was busy campaigning for Nuhu Ribadu for president,few days to the election Tinubu turned against Ribadu and jonathan won in Tinubus consisituency after he Tinubu has collected something from Jonathan at the expence of Yoruba people, how many yoruba leaders does Tinubu consulted before turning against Ribadu?moreso,PDP zone the position of speaker to the south west where Tinubu want to claim the leadership what role does Tinubu take so that yoruba man or woman can clinch that position?instead of fighting for yorubas,coz of his personal agenda he teamed up with order zones to take away the position from south westis that how a leader should do?, now Yoruba does not have any share in the national position, by 2015,he will bring out his agenda and you will know where he is going, abeg no talk am say Tinubu should be ,made the leader of yoruba again, HE IS A SELFISH,PRETENDER AND WICKED MAN,

If you say Fashola for Ashiwaju then i would believe you. Tinubu, never. He shall still see disgrace and embarassment. He will see everything crumble before his hands very soon. A house built on deceit, greed and criminal activities will never stand. He does not represent Yoruba standard for leadership and never will. He has dug his grave.

Please,i am not from oyo neither from Ife, i am from Ondo state, but i love to know history, both of you claiming ooni of Ife or alafin ofOyo to be the supreme head of yoruba have a very good argument but if i have to be a judge in this matter,i need clearer evidence, pls i need someone to tell me how i can get the books that speak about this people most especially those that was written for a very long time.

X-factoria:

If we must rank all Kings in Yorubaland today, we would not rank by who conquered who at what time but by history and age. The Ooni would rank highest because that throne is Oduduwa's and it is the oldest throne in Yorubaland.

The throne is not merely the chair on which a king sits but the authority that comes out of it.  The throne of Oduduwa was not inherited by the Ooni, it moved to Oyo.  And if you are insisting that it did not move to Oyo then what you are saying is that the present Ooni, who simply stepped in to worship the deities, is ruling over all Oduduwa descendants.  Isn't this absurd?

Again, it is not arguable that the Ooni is not a direct descendant of Oduduwa.

Pukkah:

The throne is not merely the chair on which a king sits but the authority that comes out of it.  The throne of Oduduwa was not inherited by the Ooni, it moved to Oyo.  And if you are insisting that it did not move to Oyo then what you are saying is that the present Ooni, who simply stepped in to worship the deities, is ruling over all Oduduwa descendants.  Isn't this absurd?

Again, it is not arguable that the Ooni is not a direct descendant of Oduduwa.

Who moved the throne to oyo? Why was it moved to oyo? Was oranmiyan not the last grandson? On what basis would oranmiyan have inherited three kingdoms - oyo, bini, ife? Was he more special than his older brothers? Nothing in history suggests so. Please stop with illogical conjecture.

It appears that your yoruba history is not complete. There were Yoruba kings at Ife before Oduduwa; the king before Oduduwa was called Orelu-ore. After Oduduwa, the first ruler was Osangangan Obamakin. You are focusing too much on the name when you should be focusing on the RULER. Tell us, what was the name of the King at Oyo before Oranmiyan? You can't because there was no king at Oyo. On what basis should Oyo hold sway over Ife when Ife existed before Oyo? We know Oduduwa had one son, Okanbi, from his primary wife, Omonide. We also know that Okanbi had 7 sons through his primary wife. But there were 16 original kingdoms. Is it inconceivable that the remaining 9 kingdoms were founded by sons from slaves, including the Ooni?

Secondly, please do not bring illogical conjecture to this debate. How could the king at Ife be called Alaafin simply because you want to extend Oyo control to Ife. Oduduwa never gave authority to Oranmiyan over his older brothers. Oyo derived supremacy through military might. Afterall, Oranmiyan was the last grandson. Oyo was actually one of the last original Yoruba kingdoms because when Oranmiyan returned from Bini, all his older brothers had left and had established their own kingdoms. The kingdom that was given to Oranmiyan was Bini but he left Bini. Alaafin supporters always come up with this Oranmiyan had right over other kingdoms when we know that not to be true. Oranmiyan's original kingdom was Bini.

I will, and I trust a good number of Yoruba minus people from Oyo, always accept the place of Ife in Yoruba history. Ife was the first Yoruba kingdom. Oduduwa met Agboniregun (setilu), baba Ifa, at Ife. Orunmila was the father of Agboniregun. That connection was pre-ordained. The spiritualness of Ife can not be contested. Even if you argue that Ooni was not a blood son of Oduduwa. The establishment of Yoruba kingdoms started from Ife and not Oyo. If Oyo wants the Yoruba to think otherwise, it should re-conquer the rest of Yorubaland again, if it can.
What political power does Oyo have? Nada
What military power does Oyo have? Nada
What spiritual power does Oyo have? Nada

Or should we continue to respect Oyo because it reigned supreme before the 19th century? Why not Owu then since Owu was was the first kingdom to defeat Oyo? Did the Olowu not capture Alaafin Ajaka (first Alaafin after Oranmiyan)?

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The early colonial recognition of the Alaafin and his self proclamation as the Oba of Yorubaland do not prove anything. In fact, that self proclamation lends credence to the desperation of the Alaafin to keep living in the past.

Some important questions you should answer to give you a clearer picture of what should be the background to establishing whose authority should be supreme between the Ooni and Alaafin is this:

- DID THE ALAAFIN ESTABLISH THOSE KINGDOMS YOU LISTED AS BEING CONSTITUENTS OF THE OLD OYO EMPIRE??

- IS OYO EMPIRE THE OLDEST KINGDOM IN YORUBALAND??

- WERE THERE OTHER KINGDOMS/TOWNS EXISTING BEFORE THE EMERGENCE OR FOUNDING OF OYO EMPIRE??

- WAS IT THE ALAAFIN THAT ESTABLISHED THE KINGSHIP IN THOSE KINGDOMS??

- DID THESE TOWNS/KINGDOMS WILLINGLY SUBMIT TO THE AUTHORITY OF THE ALAAFIN OR DID THE ALAAFIN IMPOSE HIMSELF ON THEM BECAUSE OF HIS MILITARY MIGHT??

If you can answer these questions objectively, then you will be able to see my conlusion that: IF THE POWER WITH WHICH THE ALAAFIN ENSURED THE SUBMISSION OF THESE TOWNS AND KINGDOMS IS NO LONGER THERE, THEN THE ALAAFIN HAS LOST ALL ITS RIGHTS ON THOSE PEOPLE.

Coercion of one Kingdom by a powerful Kingdom in those days was by war and conquest. IT WAS NOT BY RIGHT. That is the mistake people like you are still making. If it was by right, then the Alaafin would have a say in who becomes the rulers of those Kingdoms till today. Your assertion can be likened to saying that Nigeria is still under British authority till today because they once exercised administrative authority over us. You and I know that that is false. If Alaafin ever had rights over all Yorubaland, that right seized since those Kingdoms stopped taking orders from Oyo and declare themselves independent.

If we must rank all Kings in Yorubaland today, we would not rank by who conquered who at what time but by history and age. The Ooni would rank highest because that throne is Oduduwa's and it is the oldest throne in Yorubaland.
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Thank you so much for outlining REAL/FACTUAL history to these dumb-bleeps who fail to dig deeper into history but judge by recent phenomenon. The most logical propositions purported thus far.

Katsumoto:

Who moved the throne to oyo? Why was it moved to oyo? Was oranmiyan not the last grandson? On what basis would oranmiyan have inherited three kingdoms - oyo, bini, ife? Was he more special than his older brothers? Nothing in history suggests so. Please stop with illogical conjecture.

There is no conjecture here Katsumoto.

Oranmiyan was away on one of his numerous campaigns when Oduduwa died. Before his return his brothers had distributed the material possession of their father leaving only ‘useless’ lands. The smart Oranmiyan inherited the land and demanded rent from his brothers. He became instantly richer than his brothers. He was recorded as succeeding to the Oduduwa throne. This is the reason why he was more special than his brothers.

He left Ife leaving Ooni as guardian of the throne. He went north on an expedition purportedly to avenge the expulsion of his grandfather from his native Middle-East country. Having been discouraged by the King of Nupe on the foolhardiness of the project, he founded and settled Oyo on his southern march back to Ife and becoming, so to say, the first Alafin of Oyo. Thus he became the founder of the first real Yoruba political entity, later called Oyo Empire. He was associated with some other dynasties apart from the Benin’s, like Popo in the present day Republic of Benin.

9jacrip:


Thank you so much for outlining REAL/FACTUAL history to these dumb-bleeps who fail to dig deeper into history but judge by recent phenomenon. The most logical propositions purported thus far.

I advise you to vacate this thread together with your foul and indecent language.  Didn't you observe that well-bred intellectuals were having an educative exchange that was defined by decorum before you appeared with uncouth/gutter language?

Go and join the NURTW (Elewe omo faction or Tokyo group) to advance your argument (or lack of it) please.

Pukkah:

There is no conjecture here Katsumoto.

Oranmiyan was away on one of his numerous campaigns when Oduduwa died. Before his return his brothers had distributed the material possession of their father leaving only ‘useless’ lands. The smart Oranmiyan inherited the land and demanded rent from his brothers. He became instantly richer than his brothers. He was recorded as succeeding to the Oduduwa throne. This is the reason why he was more special than his brothers.

He left Ife leaving Ooni as guardian of the throne. He went north on an expedition purportedly to avenge the expulsion of his grandfather from his native Middle-East country. Having been discouraged by the King of Nupe on the foolhardiness of the project, he founded and settled Oyo on his southern march back to Ife and becoming, so to say, the first Alafin of Oyo. Thus he became the founder of the first real Yoruba political entity, later called Oyo Empire. He was associated with some other dynasties apart from the Benin’s, like Popo in the present day Republic of Benin.

You exposed the gaps in your knowledge by stating that oranmiyan founded sabe and popo. Onisabe and onipopo were two of the original seven obalades together with olowu of owu, Alaffin, orangun of ila orangun, Owaobokun of ijeshaland and alaketu of ketu.

Secondly, oranmiyan was returning from bini and not any campaign. When he returned to ife, his brothers had left to found their new kingdoms. How can you say he became founder of the first real Yoruba polity when his brothers had established before him? It appears that in your version of Yoruba history, oranmiyan was the only heir to oduduwa. If oranmiyan remained in bini, his children would not have had problems with their cousins and uncles. You want us to believe that oranmiyan was rewarded will 'all' yorubaland after rejecting his own kingdom.

Did oduduwa own all of the land in yorubaland. How could he give what didn't belong to him to oranmiyan. Most of these new kingdoms oduduwa's sons founded were more or less unoccupied land that they settled on with their wives and slaves. Oranmiyans sons (ajaka and sango) felt they could lord over their cousins, hence the war between oyo and owu which ajaka lost before he was rescued by sango.

This understanding was why Yoruba kingdoms of old did not wage war against Ife

modakeke?

Most of these new kingdoms oduduwa's sons founded were more or less unoccupied land that they settled on with their wives and slaves

wrong.

tpia@:

modakeke?

You are so daft! Was Modakeke ever a kingdom?

men, i love history, i love naija
i love nairaland?
from tinubu, it diverted to history
anyways, thanks peeps, am seriously learning here, ese o
God bless una
and i think yoruba, has some popular history sa