pleep:

You may be right , but this is not that discussion. This is about posistive measures the private sector & government can take to make to develope Nigeria.

Keep in mind the benifits of industrialization are not just monetary. They are mental aswell, people will think and behave differently. And i stand by my assertion that industrialization will make the country more politically stable.

I understand you clearly, and am not trying to troll.
I'm just asking, how will a government that is not united by any common purpose be able to establish a firm foundation that will put us on the path to greatness? a polity characterized by endless power struggles? In the last four years, the polity has been characterized by post-election disputes, civil unrest, political instability and horse trading right at the very centre. How will a government be able to put any reasonable plans on execution path, if they cannot even guarantee the stability of their own regime? That's what i am asking.

AjanleKoko:

I understand you clearly, and am not trying to troll.
I'm just asking, how will a government that is not united by any common purpose be able to establish a firm foundation that will put us on the path to greatness? a polity characterized by endless power struggles? In the last four years, the polity has been characterized by post-election disputes, civil unrest, political instability and horse trading right at the very centre. How will a government be able to put any reasonable plans on execution path, if they cannot even guarantee the stability of their own regime? That's what i am asking.

What do you mean?

This is not a strictly Nigerian problem. It is human nature, all over the world, to engage in "endless power struggles."

I understand you clearly, and am not trying to troll.
I'm just asking, how will a government that is not united by any common purpose be able to establish a firm foundation that will put us on the path to greatness? a polity characterized by endless power struggles? In the last four years, the polity has been characterized by post-election disputes, civil unrest, political instability and horse trading right at the very centre. How will a government be able to put any reasonable plans on execution path, if they cannot even guarantee the stability of their own regime? That's what i am asking.

^ We could start at the state level. Enugu state is soon to have 24 hour electricity. From there someone could build a Silica refractory brick factory for maybe less than 500k. After that someone could build a small scale steel factory. Then Enugu state could lead Nigeria into its own industrial revolution the same way Machester led England.

iragbijile:

What do you mean?

This is not a  strictly Nigerian problem. It is human nature, all over the world, to engage in "endless power struggles."

Nice one.
I guess that's why we have countries that are stable, industrialized and prosperous, and other countries that present hell on earth to their inhabitants.
The 'endless power struggles' may exist everywhere, but it certainly doesn't take the same dimensions, and do not produce the same results. The struggles for power between the right and the left in the United States, or the Tories and Labour in Britain, can they be compared with, say, Pakistan, or even Somalia?

Yes, there are 'endless struggles for power' everywhere. But in situations where the very basis of coming together is questioned by every word and action, and there are 'equal and opposite' actions and reactions on a daily basis, what results do we typically get? Scenarios are always different, but you are either going somewhere together, or going nowhere together. You be the judge.

pleep:

^ We could start at the state level. Enugu state is soon to have 24 hour electricity. From there someone could build a Silica refractory brick factory for maybe less than 500k. After that someone could build a small scale steel factory. Then Enugu state could lead Nigeria into its own industrial revolution the same way Machester led England.

True, until someone in Abuja says something like Enugu state does not have the right to generate its own electricity, or even exploit its own solid minerals. Or even repair the major highways that run through the state, all because they are deemed as 'federal' roads. Those are the fundamentals i'm talking about.

^^ As mentioned earlier in the topic Abuja Has already approved the contruction on a new coal fired power plant in Enugu state.If the feds don't want to repair the roads the state can build its own, or fix them illigally. What are the feds gunna do, send troops to prevent Enugu from fixing a road?

pleep:

^^ As mentioned earlier in the topic Abuja Has already approved the contruction on a new coal fired power plant in Enugu state.If the feds don't want to repair the roads the state can build its own, or fix them illigally. What are the feds gunna do, send troops to prevent Enugu from fixing a road?

Lawd, hopefully not!
But then the politics of these things in Nigeria is never simple. If the man in govt house in Enugu derived his mandate from Abuja, then any project would likely serve the interests of Abuja, rather than the good people of Enugu state. That's why we have all these problems in the Niger Delta.

Ajaokuta Steel has been supposedly sold to Arcelor Mittal for years now. Does anybody know anything about any steel being produced in Ajaokuta, or any new employment opportunities that sale has created?

^^ my friend you are being to pessimistic. I think you are to busy looking for problems to look for solutions.
If Abuja prevents the state gov from getting 24 hour power than you or I could do it. It's not beyond the private sector to create industrilization.
2 of the main problems with our private sector is pessimism and lack of aim. That is what I'm trying to solve with this thread.

^^^^


I agree with most oof your post but the economic environment;Nigeria has a big barrier to entry in business,  You must need $100 million to start up a factory, I mean u get my point.


I have always said this before Nigeria is growing due to other macroeconomic factors but we are NOT developing. A lot of people DO NOT understand the concept of development; you have to build the environment for development before you begin developing. In this case, I have always said why don't the fed govt relinquish it autonomous authority to state govt without restrictions to generate power. If power is generated, states can better determine how it best fit their needs in different sectors. Large industries need power to operate to keep cost low, when they produce at cheap rate, it benefits lower industries and then that industries produce for final consumers which helps everyone in the long run. When govt realizes that people are spending, then govt can impose tax to get revenue used to developing their states,

pleep:

^^ my friend you are being to pessimistic. I think you are to busy looking for problems to look for solutions.
If Abuja prevents the state gov from getting 24 hour power than you or I could do it. It's not beyond the private sector to create industrilization.
2 of the main problems with our private sector is pessimism and lack of aim. That is what I'm trying to solve with this thread.  

And you are being too idealistic.
Do you know that you need to be licensed by the NERC to generate above 1MW of electricity? Just one example.

I am part of the private sector in Nigeria, and I can tell you, we have every reason to be pessimistic. There is more than enough historical example of losses suffered as a result of poor policy formulation, or the various interests that demand to be served. The cost of doing business in Nigeria, material, logistic, infrastructure, and operating expense, is too high to be practical. That makes us an interesting but un-competitive destination for business. It's not fiction.

I'd even say your ideas aren't new. Test them practically before you make any assessment. Let's not just debate without any concrete examples.

AjanleKoko:

And you are being too idealistic.
Do you know that you need to be licensed by the NERC to generate above 1MW of electricity? Just one example.

I am part of the private sector in Nigeria, and I can tell you, we have every reason to be pessimistic. There is more than enough historical example of losses suffered as a result of poor policy formulation, or the various interests that demand to be served. The cost of doing business in Nigeria, material, logistic, infrastructure, and operating expense, is too high to be practical. That makes us an interesting but un-competitive destination for business. It's not fiction.

I'd even say your ideas aren't new. Test them practically before you make any assessment. Let's not just debate without any concrete examples.

You're right!

That is exactly my point, the barriers to entry is just outrageous. For instance, I was researching a topic a while back; economic restraints in Africa, Nigeria in general, in banking, you need almost $160million as capital just to get into banking, that is just plain ridiculous. To get into distributing fuel and other products, NNPC say you need at least N10billion or something like that, I was like what? Obviously, setting up a small refinery of about 10,000bpd production will require $500million as capital requirement but other western nations it about 1/100th of that asking amount. Nigeria need to address it investment policy else we aren't going no where, it needs to relax on its protocols and requirements and focus more on regulation and direction.

. To get into distributing fuel and other products, NNPC say you need at least N10billion or something like that,

ten billion naira? That's 66 million usd. There is no way that's the requirement.

pleep:

ten billion naira? That's 66 million usd. There is no way that's the requirement.

Oh ok , please visit NNPC website, it could be my fault I added another 0, which I will gladly accept responsibility for but, a trial will convince you.

pleep:

What's wrong with nigerias land laws?

Basically, we don't have a way to transfer land assets in order to access capital. Part of solving the problem is to modernise our land registering system so that all this land in my village can be used as a collateral to gain capital. We do not have the legal framework for that YET leading to ambiguities as to who owns what. El Rufai tried it in Abuja and it could be done. This is what we have to borrow from the west before doing industrialisation.

Have you wondered why most conflicts in this country or even Africa are directly or indirectly related to land?

pleep:

ten billion naira? That's 66 million usd. There is no way that's the requirement.

Hence this problem, banks will always ask for high amounts to enter the market to cover their risks. Barriers to entry will always be high. Even PDP presidential forms goes for 10 million naira

Arent Inudtrialization and development the same thing?  

And since Im already here, people just need:

the peace of mind knowing that your home will not get robbed when you sleep
steady electricity
traversable roads

and everythin else will follow.

^ did you even read the topic?

iragbijile:

What do you mean?

This is not a strictly Nigerian problem. It is human nature, all over the world, to engage in "endless power struggles."

This is specifically unique to Nigeria. Our power struggle is not about individual or political party ambition. Ours is ethnically and perhaps religious power struggle. No rational mind could explain the madness that happened during the twilight of Faraday.

There is no way Nigeria could make any meaningful strategic development initiative when every decision/action/investment/appointment is viewed within the prism of ethnicity.

You can argue, debate, strategize, produce a proposal or a blue print or whatever for industrialisation, once it get to Nigerian elites, it turns to tribal and religious warfare.

What you guys are talking about is not a new thing. Nigerian first attempt at industrialisation was after the civil war when the present industries, and those that collapse came into existence. But what happened? Well the proponent of national industrialisation (Murtala) was killed and then we entered a very long period of tribal politics that we are still yet to untangle ourselves.

Personally, I believe Nigeria development could only happened when 2 things happen, end of easy money for politicians and answering the question of Nationality.

kcjazz:

Basically, we don't have a way to transfer land assets in order to access capital. Part of solving the problem is to modernise our land registering system so that all this land in my village can be used as a collateral to gain capital. We do not have the legal framework for that YET leading to ambiguities as to who owns what. El Rufai tried it in Abuja and it could be done. This is what we have to borrow from the west before doing industrialisation.

Have you wondered why most conflicts in this country or even Africa are directly or indirectly related to land?
Hence this problem, banks will always ask for high amounts to enter the market to cover their risks. Barriers to entry will always be high. Even PDP presidential forms goes for 10 million naira

These are very interesting points. I agree with you on this. Land reform is vital.

As for the Nigerian banks I suggest avoiding them intirely. You can get good loans for relativly little capital in the u.s and europe.

@Pleep. Thanks for this post.
Seriously, Nigerians have always been fighting about establishing more schools rather than things that will creat jobs and development. The trend now, is going to school at all cost just to come out and be unemployed. We have more schools now than work places. The result is we have engineers, doctors, lawyers that cannot feed themselves and trying to undo others fighting to get hold of something to do. While the people in govt are busy building hotels everywhere with our stolen money.
Visit our towns and villages you will see big hotels doted everywhere, some are just empty without guest and money is being wasted servicing them.

That is like putting the cart before the horse.

OP - I feel you o! industrialization? when GEJ has imported CEO of world bank again to fix our economy. one thing is that the economy policy of world bank is disaster to any country and that is what we buying again.

lets hope for better, GEJ is not the one that wil head us to the right direction.

Sanusi is now developing the agric sector just jacking it any angle, he has realized that industrilization is not the culture of the land. so he decides to face the reality, i hope he develop more farmlands and make it collective farming then we can be exporting foods to our neighbors.

Sharia bank - interest free bank - who no want interest free?

@ poster:

your approach is too simplistic.

first and foremost, having stable electricity is necessary to industrializing. without electricity, the steel, textile, and the other industries you mentioned will barely survive.

good roads, a functional rail system, adequate running and drinking water, and a good education system are also necessary to industrializing. without good roads and rails, it will be difficult and expensive for manufacturers to transport finished products to their intended destination. without clean running water, many citizens are more likely to suffer from water borne diseases, and manufacturers that need water for manufacture will find it expensive to haul in water. a sick citizenry will reduce productivity, and manufacturer's hauling water will increase manufacturing costs. without a good education, you will not have [b]qualified [/b]graduates who can do this high-skilled jobs.

further several intangibles such as sanitation and good public transport system are also very important, as well as an aesthetically pleasing society. cleanliness is next to Godliness, and a clean society, free of debris on roadsides, will help citizens think clearly and reduce preventable sickness. this will help citizens feel good about themselves and think clearly, which will spur ideas.  a good public transport system will reduce the amount of time it takes for employees to get to work, thereby increasing productivity.

most importantly, we need a stable and impartial judicial system, to which companies can go to resolve disputes, if and when it is needed.

The poster is partially correct industrialization a.k.a producing stuff is the only way out so unfortunately Nigeria CANNOT develop. I've said it time and time again, tar all the roads, provide all the power, security like Fort Knox if people are not ready to work they won't.

Infrastructure does not create jobs and businesses it merely enhances them. Makes them more efficient. They are like fertilizer, only beneficial to what is planted. I mean, 85 percent of China remains rural - no roads, no power and down right poor but they work like horses. Same for India. The US on the other hand has great infrastructure but has exchanged all its industries for hollywood and the soft end of silicon valley - facebook, twitter and Apple as if that puts food on the table so even they have to borrow from rural China to survive.

In Europe while the English buy and sell money a.k.a trade poverty, the Germans make stuff and are the only viable economy in Europe. When our banks were asked to capitalize you'd have thought it a great tool for development (afterall money is the raw material for the banking industry) but when I saw them opening new branches, employing new staff and perking themselves up I knew the end was nigh. If the engine room of business doesn't know what to do with capital then there's a fundamental problem in Nigeria. And this problem is of sloth, ineptitude and corruption.

If not why should we be asking for a rise in minimum wage. For what. What do we produce to deserve this - extracted oil by foreigners. I laugh. This is one of the few countries where rumeneration is rationalised by consumption not production. Yeah, we want more money because stuff is expensive. Sure dummy it is called inflation and Eco 101 says it happens when you watch African Magic all day long instead of making decoders and dishes. Or we want more because our reps squander a million bucks a day talking. Then we say we are the most hardworking people on earth. Nigerians are hardworking indeed, yet 90% of our income comes from one product controlled by 5 foreign companies. Without them government ceases and without budget announcement nearly all companies nosedive. Haba.

We are simply not cut out for REAL work (and I don't mean buying and selling, supply and fix). I mean looking at yourself top to toe and pointing which one you fit make. If today China Plc stops selling is it not unclothedness, hunger, diseases. Caveman status fully restored. Abeg our sufferings are yet to come.

When Indians and Chinese come to Nigeria we accuse them of low wages, exploitation and I laugh. They have sized us up and are merely offering wages commensurate with our economy and productivity. Take a trip to inner China and see the living standards of those that make: I pass my neighbour, Kalvien Klieeen, toys r' death, cassava/wheat alloy called biscuits, and all the substandard plastic goodies we and Americans just love; are they all enjoying steady light, good roads and drive around in 4x4's, renting 50,000 dollar apartments. I think not. But the country has a surplus in trillions. So why has a so called Socialist country not simply shared the money like we stupidly do here. Simple, it is more blessed to give than to receive. Free stuff kills work. Ask Russia.

Abwagoro God bless you. Crude oil and cheap money has ruined us and until it finishes and we begin to suffer we CANNOT develop. I've been looking for more hands on my rural establishment since Jan. Many have come, they take one look and move on. Its never good enough. All the establishments around me are being sold to speculators and I just wonder what the future will be when the noose is tightened around me. Lately I ran into one of those early job seekers by the road side under the guise of road union toll collector. Good job for him. He extorts 700 naira per vehicle passing per day and his delight is the new house he's building. Progress without productivity. That's the story of this country.

Develop without industrialising.
I laugh.

Government is the biggest agent of change.


That said, development will forever remain a mirage in Nigeria. Nigeria is not set up to work. So, stop hoping on hope.

Stop crying your heart out.

9ja is developing with bad things.

@OP
It is otherwise called the Saudi economic model. Possible in Nigeria but not likely.

[pre][/pre]

Brand_new:

[size=20pt]@ poster, I beg to correct your position on this thread. The world has long past the Industrial age, Just as the Agricultural revolution is long Gone. Now we are in the age of Information Technology and good education is the bane of every development no matter the age we are in. I mean Education as in constant search for Knowledge as opposed to what we know it as in Nigeria which is the pursuance of certificates to be used as a lifetime meal ticket.[/size]

My friend your mindset is exactly the problem, your trying to 'develop' without industrializing. The industrial revolution is not over, it hasn't yet spread to Africa. You cannot create technology without industry, belive me it's impossible!

Do we have the means to refine rubber?

Can we manufacture circuitry and wires?

Can we mass produce machines?

Can we refine casserite? Can we manufacture the equiptment neccisaey to build laptops?

If you think it makes economic sense to import everything na-wa for you ooo.


Even if we educate the best engineers in the word they will all move abroad.

pleep:

[pre][/pre]My friend your mindset is exactly the problem, your trying to 'develop' without industrializing. The industrial revolution is not over, it hasn't yet spread to Africa. You cannot create technology without industry, belive me it's impossible!

Do we have the means to refine rubber?

Can we manufacture circuitry and wires?

Can we mass produce machines?

Can we refine casserite? Can we manufacture the equiptment neccisaey to build laptops?

If you think it makes economic sense to import everything na-wa for you ooo.


Even if we educate the best engineers in the word they will all move abroad.

Your posts bring something to mind.
Of course it is possible to develop without industrializing.

Countries like South Africa are not 'industrialized', not in the sense you are describing. Even countries like the UAE are not. They don't really manufacture, but they have invested heavily in infrastructure and services capacity (in the case of South Africa). They are also using their mineral resources to trade for infrastructure.

South Africa is providing all manner of services to the whole of Africa. Telecoms services, retail, you name it, they do it, from Congo to Namibia. But you don't see any cars, trucks, aircraft, or ships manufactured in SA. Just small scale manufactured goods.

Manufacturing has shifted to China and India. Only the likes of Malaysia, Bangladesh, Thailand and to some extent Brazil and maybe the Phillipines, are trying to compete with them.

Even that particular equation is not so balanced. For example, China is fully into manufacturing export, while India exports strictly services. Malaysia, Bangladesh, and Thailand are trying to compete with China, while the Phillipines are trying to compete with India.

Pure economics of scale makes it highly unlikely that we can compete with China. But we can build local capacity with the provision of infrastructure. With energy, transportation, and other essential infrastructure, we can build local capacity, and produce for local consumption. We can produce local cars and trucks, ships, and even aircraft, since infrastructure will generate new demand, and the manufacturing giants will come back to Nigeria. Remember Peugeot, Nigerdock, etc? These things actually started before now, and is even returning. Now we're talking of Dangote Cement, Lafarge, etc.

Due to the decline in Infrastructure, thousands of small and medium scale manufacturing outfits shut down over 20 years, according to the Manufacturers Association of Nigeria. With the right legislation and friendly business environment, coupled with infrastructure, manufacturing giants will begin to come back. Are you aware that the big manufacturers are now looking to create capacity in India, due to wage costs rising in China, as well as cut-throat competition plus complicated government policies? I have seen that first hand. Major manufacturers moved out of Germany and the US to China, now moving to India.

I think we can develop without becoming a major manufacturing player. That's the new economy for you.

^ I didint just post these things willy-nilly without facts to back them up.

Countries like South Africa are not 'industrialized', not in the sense you are describing. Even countries like the UAE are not. They don't really manufacture, but they have invested heavily in infrastructure and services capacity (in the case of South Africa). They are also using their mineral resources to trade for infrastructure.

First of, South Africa has every one of the attributes I listed in the topic title. South Africa has had a steel factory since 1928 (Mittal steel) and actually does Manufacture many things including Armoured Personel carriers and military hardware.

Profile of the S. A economy from Wiki: "mining (world's largest producer of platinum, gold, chromium), automobile assembly, metalworking, machinery, textiles, iron and steel, chemicals, fertiliser, foodstuffs, commercial ship repair"

South Africa is providing all manner of services to the whole of Africa. Telecoms services, retail, you name it, they do it, from Congo to Namibia. But you don't see any cars, trucks, aircraft, or ships manufactured in SA. Just small scale manufactured goods.

Heres another quote I found: "The manufacturing sector provides a locus for stimulating the growth of other activities, such as services, and achieving specific outcomes, such as employment creation and economic empowerment. This platform of manufacturing presents an opportunity to significantly accelerate the country's growth and development."
Read more: http://www.southafrica.info/business/economy/sectors/manufacturing.htm#ixzz1Rq74uWth

As for the United Arab emirates,  it is a facade. That is exactly how Nigeria would look if its population was 8.9 million. The U.A.E is exactly what Nigeria is aiming for perfect roads, perfect schools, security, free health care and education etc. in short development without industrialization.
That sort of development is impossible for us because our population is too high and the oil will not last forever.

Nigeria doesn't have to  become a manufacturing giant to industrialize. All we need is the capability to manufacture the basic neccesities for the home market. Proximity alone is incentive enough for someone to buy a Nigerian made machine. Because the locally made one also has local people that can repair it, and saves on shipping cost.

Let them fix the energy crisis. Everything else would start falling into place. Industries, retail shopping, exports, refineries, tourism, technology, manufacturing and so on.

Fix the power, fix everything.