I answered your question in post #110 and you criticized my answer in post #111. Need we go over all of this again?

^^ In post #110 you said that "Over 600 OT laws are not" - let me quote you:

garyarnold:

I believe that only that part of the Old Testament law that is repeated in the New Testament are the parts we are to follow. Nine of the ten commandments are repeated in the New Testament. Over 600 OT laws are not, . . .

In other words, if "over 600 OT laws" are not "repeated", that should leave you no greater than the remaining 13 (or less). Was just wondering what those 13 (or less) "repeated" laws in the NT could be?

garyarnold:

I answered your question in post #110 and you criticized my answer in post #111. Need we go over all of this again?

No, we should not belabour the point - that's why I don't think it would be such a great idea for you to often bring up the issue of the "613" whatever. It makes no sense to be using a faulty assertion as the foundation of your arguments.

In other words, if "over 600 OT laws" are not "repeated", that should leave you no greater than the remaining 13 (or less). Was just wondering what those 13 (or less) "repeated" laws in the NT could be?

Would it help if I gave you scriptures to show that nine of the ten commandments are repeated in substance, all but the Sabbath? Those are the only ones I can now think of that are repeated in the New Testament.

Here is just one to show an example:
Old Testament:
Exodus 20:12 (KJV) “Honour thy father and thy mother: that thy days may be long upon the land which the LORD thy God giveth thee.”
New Testament:
Colossians 3:20 (KJV) “Children, obey your parents in all things: for this is well pleasing unto the Lord.”

garyarnold:

Would it help if I gave you scriptures to show that nine of the ten commandments are repeated in substance, all but the Sabbath? Those are the only ones I can now think of that are repeated in the New Testament.

It's okay, really - I don't think there's any need to keep this on or belabour it as I said earlier. I was just curious and didn't think there was anything to the "613" OT commandments claim. If it is a matter of "repeating" some laws, then that again is contrary to the gist of the NT.

Just so you know: it's not just nine, but all ten commandments of the Decalogue are found in the New Testament pertaining to the Christian life. The sabbath is also found in substance in Hebrews 4:9 - "So then, there remains a Sabbath rest for the people of God."

Here is just one to show an example:
Old Testament:
Exodus 20:12 (KJV) “Honour thy father and thy mother: that thy days may be long upon the land which the LORD thy God giveth thee.”
New Testament:
Colossians 3:20 (KJV) “Children, obey your parents in all things: for this is well pleasing unto the Lord.”

Yep, I know - Exodus 20:12 is also found in Ephesians 6:2-3 >> "Honour thy father and mother; (which is the first commandment with promise That it may be well with thee, and thou mayest live long on the earth." (I already alluded to it in post #109).

Wow.

Wordtalk and Garyarnold are at it again!!

The sabbath is also found in substance in Hebrews 4:9 - "So then, there remains a Sabbath rest for the people of God."

Not in the same substance at all. And notice the KJV did not use the word sabbath here so as to not confuse.

sabbatismos
: the repose of Christianity (as a type of heaven)

Colossians 2:16 (KJV) Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:

a tither is a complete Mugu, na pastor dey chop members dey suffer

garyarnold:

Not in the same substance at all.

I'm sure that when you used 'in substance', you did not mean it in a literal sense. So, how did you mean 'in substance'?

And notice the KJV did not use the word sabbath here so as to not confuse.

Please get done with this hugging of the KJV - it is not the most accurate or the only English version available.

Hebrews 4:9 -

[list][li]ESV - "So then, there remains a Sabbath rest for the people of God"[/li][/list]

[list][li]Darby - "There remains then a sabbatism to the people of God"[/li][/list]

[list][li]HCSB - "A Sabbath rest remains, therefore, for God's people. "[/li][/list]

[list][li]LEB - "Consequently a sabbath rest remains for the people of God"[/li][/list]

[list][li]Wycliffe - "Therefore the sabbath is left to the people of God"[/li][/list]

These^^ and other English translations/versions (ASV, NIV, Amplified, CEB, NASB, YLT) clarify that verse as pointing to a "sabbath-rest" (Gk., σαββατισμός - 'sabbatismos').

Another word 'katapausis' (κατάπαυσις) is used for 'rest' in several verses in that same Hebrews 4 (see verses 1, 3, 5, 10, 11). This word 'katapausis' is different from the 'sabbatismos' (σαββατισμός) in verse 9 - and that's probably why the other translations/versions use "sabbath-rest" to distinguish verse 9 from all those other verses with just 'rest'.

sabbatismos
: the repose of Christianity (as a type of heaven)

sabbatismos: (σαββατισμός)

Definitions

[list][li]THAYER'S GREEK DEFINITIONS
G4520
1) a keeping sabbath
2) the blessed rest from toils and troubles looked for in the age to come by the true worshippers of God and true Christians[/li][/list]

[list][li]STRONG'S HEBREW AND GREEK DEFINITIONS
G4520
From a derivative of G4521;
a “sabbatism”, that is, (figuratively) the repose of Christianity (as a type of heaven): - rest[/li][/list]

[list][list]G4521 - sabbaton: (σάββατον)
Of Hebrew origin [H7676]; the Sabbath (that is, Shabbath), or day of weekly repose from secular avocations (also the observance or institution itself); by extension a se'nnight, that is, the interval between two Sabbaths; likewise the plural in all the above applications: - sabbath (day), week.[/list][/list]

The 'sabbatismos' (σαββατισμός) of verse 9 is a keeping of "sabbath/sabbatism", derived from the Hebrew 'sabbaton' (σάββατον - Sabbath).

This does not mean that Christians are to be observing a ritual of a seventh-day Jewish sabbath, as is obvious from Colossians 2:16 and Galatians 4:10. Yet, there's no denying that the 'sabbatismos' in Christianity is derived from the Jewish Sabbath.

@wordtalk,

You went totally off topic, apparently just to criticize what I said.

I said nine of the Ten Commandments were repeated, in substance, in the New Testament. There is nothing in the New Testament comparable to the commandment to remember the Sabbath and keep the Sabbath Holy.

I did not say that sabbath isn't mentioned in the New Testament.

garyarnold:

@wordtalk,

You went totally off topic, apparently just to criticize what I said.

No. I didn't try to go off topic just to criticize what you said. I had earlier warned you to give it up, because the blether about "613 Old Testaments" is simply a non-issue. I wouldn't take you up on it if you didn't bring it up in the first place.

I said nine of the Ten Commandments were repeated, in substance, in the New Testament.

So, what exactly do you mean by "in substance"? If you delineate the nine of the Ten Commandments, you will indeed find that the tenth one (sabbath) which you left out also appears in the New Testament as a Christian doctrine. There's no denying that, as you also have acknowledged.

There is nothing in the New Testament comparable to the commandment to remember the Sabbath and keep the Sabbath Holy.

I did not argue that, so that's just a moot point. I said earlier: "This does not mean that Christians are to be observing a ritual of a seventh-day Jewish sabbath, . . Yet, there's no denying that the 'sabbatismos' in Christianity is derived from the Jewish Sabbath."

I did not say that sabbath isn't mentioned in the New Testament.

So, what exactly are you saying? Nine out of Ten Commandments - leave out the sabbath. . . and now come back to acknowledge the same fact of the sabbath being mentioned?

This is not a big deal, garyarnold. But if you really want to delve a bit more into it, then since you asserted that "over 600 OT laws" are not repeated (which leaves you less than 13), please kindly delineate the remaining laws/commandments that are "repeated" from the 613 commandments - that way, it becomes easier to follow your arguments.

There is nothing in the New Testament comparable to the commandment to remember the Sabbath and keep the Sabbath Holy.

I did not argue that, so that's just a moot point.

That happens to be the whole point.

The more I say, the more you criticize, so I'm not going to continue with this.

garyarnold:

The more I say, the more you criticize, so I'm not going to continue with this.

If someone is confident of what they're saying, they ought not to fear being critiqued. In the same manner, if you were confident about what you were arguing with the "613 Old Testaments", you would not be complaining about being 'criticized' - that is just an easy copout.

Since the "613 commandments" is a non-issue, I don't see any need for you to have resorted to it here. Not only is it irrelevant, but it is totally redundant. I took you up on that because many people who throw in bits here and there for their diehard anti-tithing stance often hide behind that blether as their perfect excuse. In their thinking, the Old Testament has 613 commandments - as if they have counted all the OT commandments and could verify their claim!

Some would even argue that nine of the Ten Commandments are "repeated" in the NT, except the sabbath - and therefore, that the remaining 600+ OT laws were not "repeated". These are careless and hollow assertions that no intelligent student of Scripture should be bandying around in a public forum.

If you're confident about the "over 600 OT laws" that are not repeated, and leaving the sabbath to take only nine of the Ten Commandments, then that leaves you less than 13 of those commandments - which can be EASILY outlined or delineated, "in substance", of course. It seems you either lack the confidence to show what you assert, or you might have done a quick check to realise that your assertion was unfounded - which explains why you are stylishly rescinding under the excuse of being criticised.

Leave it off, garyarnold - the "613 commandments" often argued by anti-tithers is a fallacious non-issue.

Leave it off, garyarnold - the "613 commandments" often argued by anti-tithers is a fallacious non-issue.

It is not a non-issue. There are 613 commandments that have been listed and counted. Maybe there are more. The problem is, who determines which of the commandments are valid today, and which are not. Most people either pick and choose, or they accept that only that repeated in the New Testament is meant for Christians.

Whether you want to accept 613 as the number is moot. The question is, how does one determine which of the Old Testament commands are meant for us today?

Colossians 2:14 (KJV) - Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;

Galatians 5:18 (KJV) - But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.

Galatians 3:19 (KJV) - Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator.

Galatians 3:23-25 (KJV)
23But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.
24Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
25But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.

Galatians 3:10-14 (KJV)
10For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.
11But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith.
12And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them.
13Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:
14That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.

garyarnold:

It is not a non-issue.

Just fine with me. Since you want to make it an issue, then stand up and stop complaining about being criticized.

There are 613 commandments that have been listed and counted.

Does that mean there are only 613 commandments in the Old Testament? This is the issue I want you guys to clarify, because often when that argument comes up it sounds like you know no other count than exactly 613. If you're not sure, you would not be referring to it and trying to make an issue out of a non-issue.

Maybe there are more.

Meaning. . . you're not sure which is which, or what is what??

The problem is, who determines which of the commandments are valid today, and which are not.

I don't know. But your argument is assertive as if you have determined what they should be when you argue that "over 600 OT laws" are NOT "repeated" in the NT. How did you come by that assertion if you're not demonstrating your own determinism?

Most people either pick and choose, or they accept that only that repeated in the New Testament is meant for Christians.

Leave out what most people do - the question is: what do YOU do? The issue of "only that repeated" does not even arise, because we know that you can't ascertain if it is the remaining less than 13 from the 613 that are found repeated in the NT. If you knew, it would not have been difficult for you to outline them, would it?

Whether you want to accept 613 as the number is moot.

Lol, I'm not the one "accepting" 613, so how is that 'moot'? It is because I reject the fallacy built on that argument that is why I find your arguments a fallacious non-issue and your excuses quite moot. Dude, wake up!

The question is, how does one determine which of the Old Testament commands are meant for us today?

You have determined, and what I'm asking is show us your own delineated 'laws/commandments' that you have carried over. Why is that a difficult thing for you to do all this time?

(a) How many of the "613 OT laws/commandments" do you have left after you have determined that "over 600" of them are NOT repeated?

(b) What are those which are "repeated" - please name or outline them.

(c) What if we find some commandments in the OT that are not "repeated" or "carried over" into the NT - is there sin in applying them today as Christians?

Please provide answers - since you want to make this blether of the 613 commandments an issue when it is not.

This is rediculous. But here goes:

Old Testament: Exodus 20:3 (KJV) “Thou shalt have no other gods before me.”
New Testament: 1 Corinthians 8:4-6

Old Testament: Exodus 20:4-6 (KJV)
4Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth:
5Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me;
6And showing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments.
New Testament: Galatians 5:19-21

Old Testament: Exodus 20:7 (KJV) “Thou shalt not take the name of the LORD thy God in vain; for the LORD will not hold him guiltless that taketh his name in vain.”
New Testament: James 5:12

Old Testament: Exodus 20:8 (KJV) “Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy.”
New Testament: Nothing comparable.

Old Testament: Exodus 20:12 (KJV) “Honour thy father and thy mother: that thy days may be long upon the land which the LORD thy God giveth thee.”
New Testament: Colossians 3:20

Old Testament:
Exodus 20:13 (KJV) “Thou shalt not kill.”
New Testament: James 2:11

I am not saying this is a complete list. I am saying these are examples of Old Testament commands repeated in the New Testament. Any other commands repeated are also meant for Christians.

I don't see what is so complicated about this. If you feel there are other Old Testament laws that we are to obey, please list them from the Old Testament, and show me where in the New Testament they are repeated.

garyarnold:

I am not saying this is a complete list. I am saying these are examples of Old Testament commands repeated in the New Testament.

Thanks for the effort; but please try not to be evasive or prevaricate on these things. Reason I say so is that you seem to be shifting goal posts from your original assertions. Here are my concerns --

[list][li]You had argued for "613 Old Testament" laws/commandments[/li][/list]

[list][li]- then you asserted that "over 600" of those laws/commandments are NOT 'repeated' in the NT[/li][/list]

[list][li]- as well that nine of the Ten Commandments (except sabbath) are repeated in the NT - "in substance"[/li][/list]

[list][li]-->> upon which I observed that such an assertion leaves you LESS THAN 13 OT laws/commandments for your claim[/li][/list]

The questions, consequently, would be -

(a) How many of the "613 OT laws/commandments" do you have left after you have determined that "over 600" of them are NOT repeated?

(b) What are those which are "repeated" - please name or outline them.

(c) What if we find some commandments in the OT that are not "repeated" or "carried over" into the NT - is there sin in applying them today as Christians?

What you produced may not be a complete list - that's fine. All I ask for is that you try and provide the list of your own claims, since they would be LESS THAN 13 of them. That should not be hard to do, would it?

Any other commands repeated are also meant for Christians.

Please, let's see those "other commands repeated" - how many are they and what are they?

I don't see what is so complicated about this. If you feel there are other Old Testament laws that we are to obey, please list them from the Old Testament, and show me where in the New Testament they are repeated.

The point is that there are more than the number you assert - if I draw from your argument of the "613". As soon as you show me your list of those you argued for - a full list - then I'll give you some others that may not appear in your own listing.

I'm not going to continue playing your games.

garyarnold:

I'm not going to continue playing your games.

That has become your global anthem anytime you beg to take off. If you're confident of your assertions on the blether about the '613 OT commandments', you would stand to reasonably and calmly defend them.

garyarnold:

http://www.gospeloutreach.net/613laws.html

http://www.hebrew4christians.com/Articles/Taryag/taryag.html

http://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/756399/jewish/The-613-Commandments.htm

http://www.shalom-peace.com/613.html

^^ Please answer the questions instead of ducking behind these excuses.

(a) How many of the "613 OT laws/commandments" do you have left after you have determined that "over 600" of them are NOT repeated?

(b) What are those which are "repeated" - please name or outline them.

Please, let's see those "other commands repeated" - how many are they and what are they?

I already gave you nine. I said there may be more. That leaves another possible 3. Now, maybe you will find more than three in which case my math would be in error. But I can only find the nine I already quoted.

Since you don't even seem to understand the difference between income and increase, nor do you seem to understand what in substance means, I guess I am in for much more criticism. But IF you understood the common terms I use, this would have ended long ago.

garyarnold:
Since you don't even seem to understand the difference between income and increase, nor do you seem to understand what in substance means, I guess I am in for much more criticism. But IF you understood the common terms I use, this would have ended long ago.

Look, my dear sir, we're done with that part of the script on income and increase and whatnots (your missing links on 'assets') - you only tore your hair out and proved nothing. So leave all that behind and well buried.

I already gave you nine. I said there may be more. That leaves another possible 3. Now, maybe you will find more than three in which case my math would be in error. But I can only find the nine I already quoted.

Okay, I'll let you dream on with your nine - even though it effectively deflates your arguments, the shifting goal posts notwithstanding. I think you should also help yourself and not make an issue of it, since you're feeling quite under the weather with all the complaints about being criticized (complaints which are neither here nor there).

I voted only Mrs. C. The other two may have tithed if the 'church' can be counted on to channel the funds into worthy causes and not for perms.

I'm sorry I couldn't read what musta been 6 odd pages of argument over what tithes are and their legitimacy.

vescucci:

I voted only Mrs. C. The other two may have tithed if the 'church' can be counted on to channel the funds into worthy causes and not for perms.

I'm sorry I couldn't read what musta been 6 odd pages of argument over what tithes are and their legitimacy.

LOL!

wordtalk:

(a) How many of the "613 OT laws/commandments" do you have left after you have determined that "over 600" of them are NOT repeated?

^If I understand garyarnorld: he said nine were repeated. So this leaves 604? Is that not ""over 600" of them are NOT repeated?"

aletheia:

^If I understand garyarnorld: he said nine were repeated. So this leaves 604? Is that not ""over 600" of them are NOT repeated?"

Lol, just leave garyarnold to himself. Some who don't understand his style of slippery argumentation may not easily see how he tends to shift goal posts. I saw how he has always argued ONLY NINE 'repeated' out of the '613 OT commandments'; but when that non-issue is taken up, you'll find him making allowance for a few more -

garyarnold:

I already gave you nine. I said there may be more. That leaves another possible 3. Now, maybe you will find more than three in which case my math would be in error. But I can only find the nine I already quoted.

If he wants to stick with 'ONLY NINE' as he'd always argued, then what's with the 'another possible 3', etc., etc., etc.?

The implication of his peremptory argument that only those that are 'repeated' (NINE of them) are for the Christian would mean that all the other 600+ are excluded - that is, over 600 of them would quite conclusively have no part in the Christian life! That argument is quite fallacious, and that was what I wanted him to stand up to defend if he was confident about what he was arguing.

Since the argument of the 613 Mitzvot is a non-issue, there's no reason for his repeatedly waving that fallacy around - it should be retired once and for all.

Some who don't understand his style of slippery argumentation may not easily see how he tends to shift goal posts.

This coming from someone who doesn't know the difference between increase and income. From one who doesn't know the difference between an asset, income, and income producing assets. Yet acts like she knows it all and continues day after day showing her ignorance.

And also from someone who takes NO stand as to what constitutes voluntary tithing. It's up for grabs. Everyone can do as they please.

I think most have discovered wordtalk's game playing here. No need to go into it any deeper.

garyarnold:

Some who don't understand his style of slippery argumentation may not easily see how he tends to shift goal posts.

This coming from someone who doesn't know the difference between increase and income. From one who doesn't know the difference between an asset, income, and income producing assets. Yet acts like he knows it all and continues day after day showing his ignorance.

I've shown you the difference, and you could not counter a dot in my rejoinder - posts #118 and #122. So stop summersaulting on the same page and move on.

And also from someone who takes NO stand as to what constitutes voluntary tithing. It's up for grabs. Everyone can do as they please.

I don't force people into anything as I allow other believers to do as they are persuaded in their hearts after praying and seeking answers from God. Forcing your own views on others (especially where they are fallacious) is intentionally diabolic.

I think most have discovered wordtalk's game playing here. No need to go into it any deeper.

If you don't want to discuss, simply say so instead of sobbing like a high school dropout in Fresno.

@Wordtalk
Don't you get tired of this your manipulative strategy of grabbing at straws, building mountains out of mole hill etc. The exact number of OT laws does not matter what matters is that these laws are not applicable to christians and tithing ewhich is the subject matter is an integral part of the abolished laws.

Pastor Kun:

@Wordtalk
Don't you get tired of this your manipulative strategy of grabbing at straws, building mountains out of mole hill etc. The exact number of OT laws does not matter what matters is that these laws are not applicable to christians and tithing ewhich is the subject matter is an integral part of the abolished laws.

I don't quibble on non-issues - that's why I noted to garyarnold he should let the fallacy of his "613 Old Testaments" lie dead and buried: it is a non-issue. When he turned back and tried to make it an issue, I took it up with him. Anti-tithers often hide behind their fallacies to justify arguments they can't sustain or defend intelligently or Biblically. Let others do as they have determined to do after praying - and if that includes expressing their giving in the form of tithes, why is that such an anathema to anti-tithers?

wordtalk:

I don't quibble on non-issues - that's why I noted to garyarnold he should let the fallacy of his "613 Old Testaments" lie dead and buried: it is a non-issue. When he turned back and tried to make it an issue, I took it up with him. Anti-tithers often hide behind their fallacies to justify arguments they can't sustain or defend intelligently or Biblically. Let others do as they have determined to do after praying - and if that includes expressing their giving in the form of tithes, why is that such an anathema to anti-tithers?

You don't seem to get it.
No one is against giving to a church. What we are obliged to point out as Christians is that compulsory tithe as preached by pastors is not for those who are like Christ, who has fulfilled the law with his death on the cross.
Have you ever wondered about why the curtain that demarcates the Joly of Holies in the temple was torn in two at the death of Christ?

anonimi:

You don't seem to get it.
No one is against giving to a church. What we are obliged to point out as Christians is that compulsory tithe as preached by pastors is not for those who are like Christ, who has fulfilled the law with his death on the cross.

No, you don't get it. My comments do not favour "compulsory tithing" - I have shown this in so many places. I don't think you were aware of what I have been saying that's why you probably jumped to conclusions.

Have you ever wondered about why the curtain that demarcates the Joly of Holies in the temple was torn in two at the death of Christ?

Tithing and any other type of giving has absolutely NOTHING to do with salvation and justification.