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Nairaland Forum / Nairaland / General / Business / Discussing Fuel Subsidy Removal (please Let's Keep The Discussion Civil) (7832 Views)
Remove Fuel Subsidy Now! World Bank Tells Buhari. / Profitable Business Opportunities After Subsidy Removal? / Fuel Subsidy Removal: Petrol May Cost 195 Naira Per Litre (From 65 Naira) - NLC (2) (3) (4)
Re: Discussing Fuel Subsidy Removal (please Let's Keep The Discussion Civil) by kjhova(m): 5:21pm On Oct 27, 2011 |
Hi @ BP, I just came back on board now. I shall respond to your adjourning question tomorrow. @ Stagger, i feel you did not read my post in detail. If you did, I see no way you will attack me as "the problem in the petroleum industry". Remember, the poster requested us to discuss as professionals. It'll be nice to move the mud slinging to an appropriate thread. |
Re: Discussing Fuel Subsidy Removal (please Let's Keep The Discussion Civil) by forkadict(m): 5:58pm On Oct 27, 2011 |
@ KJ Hova, believe me, i am always critical of people's work and i simply find yours insightful and excellent. I guess you work in the downstream sector of the oil industry. In my humble attempt to attack this issue of fuel subsidy. I must say that there are 2 scools of thought: One, those who argue against its removal subjectively. Their arguement are based on both sentiments and facts. They argue that time and again, the government has partially deregulated the downstream sector and they have nothing concrete to show to Nigerians as the dividends of the partial de-regulation. At least we were once buying petrol at twenty something naira per litre. The price was increased to sixty five naira per litre which we buy at presently. This automatically should translate to more money for the government to spend on infrastructure e.g roads, hospitals, power, housing, education etc but sadly all and i mean all these freed up monies have only found their ways into the pockets of a few greedy, possessed and insatiable kleptomaniacs. So since we have travelled this same routes many times in the past with nothing to show as benefits of partial deregulation, why must we continue to travel the same forking route? However, any amount the government says they spend on subsidy ia a grossly overstated figure. To get the real figure, multiply the government's figures by 0.5. The balance ends up in some people's pockets. If the government is really serious in freeing up cash, let them block the loopholes in the fuel importation, sales and distribution process. Permit me to say that the subsidy is the only way and the only thing that Nigerians benefit from government. Now to facts and Figures: Simple business equation states that for you to remain in business, your COST OF FINISHED GOODS= COST OF RAW MATERIALS+ CONVERSION COST (e.g labour, energy) + DISTRIBUTION AND MARKETING COST + TAX+ YOUR PROFIT Please do not say that if we want to refine crude oil for our own use then we get it for free. That is not possible. Crude oil will definitely come at a price. It may be cheaper than what obtains in the world market, but it must definitely come at a price. Current price of crude oil per barrel= $90 USD. Let us assume that as a producing nation, we buy at $65 per barrel. A barrel equals 159 litres. This means that our cost of crude oil per litre in naira =(65X160)/159= N65 per litre (assuming that $1 USD = N160) So our cost of raw material alone is already N65 per liter. Which also douubles as the cost of finished goods. Speaking reallistically by the time we add the cost of energy to refine, cost of remuneration of the workers, distribution and marketing cost, tax and profit, we will have as our cost of finished goods which is petrol, a price that should be way higher than N65/litre. So the solution is not just to build more refineries as this analysis has shown. If the government builds more refineries, they will still continue to subsidise the cost of refinning. The only difference is that we may not be importing then. The ultimate solution therfore is to first eliminate corruption in the system and we all know that this is a near impossible feat. Second, we can deregulate fully. If we deregulate fully, private investors will come and build refineries themselves and refine crude for our consumption but then the pump price of petrol will be more than N65/litre. It will hover between N120-N150 naira/litre |
Re: Discussing Fuel Subsidy Removal (please Let's Keep The Discussion Civil) by BP(m): 6:11pm On Oct 27, 2011 |
HRT 2010: Bros, I feel you on these points you raised. I find them very enlightening. I'm just wondering why writers like Simon Kolawole can come to a conclusion that subsidy removal is the solution to resolving the issues in the oil and gas sector when he clearly points out that corruption is the cause. Can't we use the FOI bill to force the FG to reveal the names of those milking the economy in the name of fuel subsidy? |
Re: Discussing Fuel Subsidy Removal (please Let's Keep The Discussion Civil) by Gbawe: 6:56pm On Oct 27, 2011 |
(2) Should Nigerians not enjoy subsidy since we are an oil-producing country Can it really be said that Nigerians "enjoy" subsidy as an oil producing Country? My brother, we have to match and extrapolate certain factors (Income per capita, infrastructural development, healthcare, etc) to supposed subsidy relief before anyone can think that our leaders have provided something Nigeria "enjoys". Did you know that Nigeria is the second oil producing Country selling oil at the highest price to its citizens After Dubai? Will the people of Dubai mind paying more than us when the income derived from oil means they enjoy 24/7 electricity, adequate healthcare, Good security, comparatively decent education, and world-class infrastructure? Of all your questions, this is the easiest to answer. Nigerians , in the real sense, dont "enjoy" subsidy in so far as , of all the oil producing Nation, all much more developed than Nigeria thus securing aggregate economic balance, we are only second to Dubai as per price paid per litre of petrol. The injustice against Nigerians is monumental and this thread will reveal so. What is written below disgraces the myth Nigerians are enjoying any subsidy whatsoever, especially considering everything else is comatose in our nation. The comparative statistics, juxtaposed with other factors, reveal that pump price should even be much lower than it currently is !!!! The excuse that other nation refine their oil is not tenable in so far as we have never made serious efforts, over decades, to sort out our refineries. In the latest global survey (sourced from Emirate 24/7 News), Nigeria is the second major oil-producing nation not selling cheapest petrol among the 10 top countries. In the chart of countries selling cheap fuel, Saudi Arabia occupies the first position with a price of £0.08 (N21.12) per litre. It is closely followed by war-ravaged Libya with 0.09 (N23.76) per litre. The rest of the countries are as follows: Bahrain £0.13 (N34.32), Kuwait £0.14 (N36.96), Qatar £0.15 (N39.60), Egypt £0.19 (50.16), Algeria £0.20 (N52. 80), Dubai £0.29 (N76.56). http://www.sunnewsonline.com/webpages/news/national/2011/oct/22/national-22-10-2011-012.html FUEL SUBSIDY MESS |
Re: Discussing Fuel Subsidy Removal (please Let's Keep The Discussion Civil) by ayusco: 8:34pm On Oct 27, 2011 |
i'm no oil expert but from the reasons given by FG for 'subsidy' removal i can't just fail to come to the conclusion that they are making the poor masses of nigeria pay for their inefficiencies. light(though improved) has not gotten to a stage where we do not need generators which means paying more to fuel them. i have this question if our refinaries are working optimally can they meet our daily demand? cus i'v heard there will still be a huge shortfall of btw 50-60% hence the need to import |
Re: Discussing Fuel Subsidy Removal (please Let's Keep The Discussion Civil) by jpphilips(m): 9:58pm On Oct 27, 2011 |
@ fork addict Im sorry to inform you that your analysis above lacks merit, I understand you erroneously think that local refining will translate to increase in pump price, it is not completely true for the following reasons: Nigerian govt is in joint venture with all oil producing companies in other words, Nigerian Govt is entitled to an average of 51% of the 2.5million barells produced daily which amounts to 1.275m barells daily The point other posters are making is that Nigeria can afford to refine a part of that locally and sell it as by products not necessarily as crude at 96usd per barell, they can get petrol,diesel,wax,ethanol,polythene,tar,bitumen etc which in turn has real market value that will still be profitable. Dont forget other petrochemicals that come with crude refining. Secondly, you inferred that 1bbl of crude equals 1bbl of petrol thereby adding the cost of refining 1bbl directly to the cost of 1bbl of crude, that is wrong. 1bbl of crude gives about 30% of petrol and other derivatives depending on the catalyst,additives and other refining conditions. These derivatives have great market value that the govt can export to make more than that 96usd crude price per barell, dont forget benzene,bitumen and imidazole which are great raw materials for foreign manufacturers. That was the strategy buhari used and pump price remained low throughout his regime. The truth is that jonathan thought he can play around corruption to make Nigeria great!!! What a misconception I urge every Nigerian to stand up and fight this evil called PDP they are poised to destroy us. Enlighten the law enforcement agents because that is their only strength Even if the govt should subsidize local production,it is not a bad idea because it will encourage the local refineries to expand their refining capacity creating more jobs and encourage export. Imagine a situation where 7 refineries get 200billion as subsidy grant? I wept the day Buhari lost that election but i am glad that Nigerians have woken up to realise that the biggest problem bedevilling us is CORRUPTION and jonathan is not the Man to fight it Jonathan must leave aso rock at all cost, for every blood shed in the struggle will amount to his own blood and his cronies. |
Re: Discussing Fuel Subsidy Removal (please Let's Keep The Discussion Civil) by oc2fish: 10:48pm On Oct 27, 2011 |
I do believe that GEJ really lost it in the case of fuel subsidy if he remove the subsidy now the suffering will be too great. This evening an erudite Proff of Animal Science in his Inaugural Lecture Sate that everything can wait EXCEPT FOOD we are hungry in Nigeria and instead of finding way to subsidize food production he is talking of making it impossible for common man to eat. NOTE; EVERYTHING CAN WAIT EXCEPT FOOD |
Re: Discussing Fuel Subsidy Removal (please Let's Keep The Discussion Civil) by Gbawe: 11:36pm On Oct 27, 2011 |
jp philips: Fantastic !!! These few words are gold in how they efficiently capture the pathetic situation Nigeria currently faces!!!! GEJ feels he can achieve progress by ignoring corruption and even appeasing it selectively (eg NNPC to handle refineries). Total "misconception" as you stated. It will all end in tears for the man who is too compromised via having the biggest number of AGIPs and corrupt/ruinous hands as 'buddies'. His economic team , for example, is an embarrassment in its oligarchic mien and bias towards rapacious wealth vultures for a nation that needs socio-capitalist leaning currently and , perhaps, for the forseeable future. We are verily screwed with this man who is totally beholden to the elite and indifferent to the long suffering masses. |
Re: Discussing Fuel Subsidy Removal (please Let's Keep The Discussion Civil) by Probity100: 3:29am On Oct 28, 2011 |
This is a fantastic thread! Anyway, let me start by commending mathematical analysis of pro- subsidy removal and the views of anti- subsidy removal. NIGERIAN GOVERNMENT One thing that the government needs to provide answer is, why cant it prosecute these cartels? If EFCC and ICPC could wage war against inflation of contracts and the likes, why can't they investigate the excessess of these greedy importers. Does it mean some group are above the law in this nation? So government wants massess to suffer the effect of her failures due to some greedy, self-centred idiots called cartel/elites. How does government intend to alleviate the effect of this subsidy removal on masses( people who does not even have means of sharing ideas like us). Now, on subsidy removal: What is the guarrantee that aftermath removal, we will not remain even in worse economic woes? Mind you, as the government is planning removal, those cartels are doing permutation and combination on how to milk the nation dry. Even, who are these cartels? hmm, Politicians and government officials- simple. What has government done with loots recovered from some past leaders and what about the 1990 oil windfall that was left untreated. Well, I throw my weight behind subsidy removal. But the accrue money should be share with some part added to workers salary, some percentage to subsidise food and other parts for infrastructure developments. And, thereafter investigate the excessess of the so called cartels( they are humans and not spirits). |
Re: Discussing Fuel Subsidy Removal (please Let's Keep The Discussion Civil) by Gbawe: 4:32am On Oct 28, 2011 |
(3) Under what circumstances should subsidy be removed? Let us remember that subsidy, or subvention, was first suggested as a solution to how ,'apparently', we could not refine enough petrol to meet the demand of the nation. Well, the ambitious Nigerian, with an eye on nation building, would posit that we must also consider export ASAP as well because of the badly needed income that can be derived from it. We saw Dubai gain world class infrastructure through its oil wealth. To that end , and even if the reason for initiating subsidy was ever genuine, we should have enough refineries to cater for domestic need and export no more than 4 years after subsidy was introduced. It is far longer than that and we are still talking about subsidy cluelesssly indicating that some are happy for the so-called subsidy to remain in place as their own cash Cow even if this is to the nations detriment !!! We are losing a lot (income, foreign exchange, international trade leverage, etc) from not being able to export appreciable quantity of refined derivatives of crude. The simple solution is to draft in tried, tested and proven private sector hands in a massive effort to ensure our refineries produce enough oil to satisfy domestic need and , most importantly, open up our oil export sector so that appreciable income can come in. The sort which can be used to fund capital intensive infrastructural projects. A mix of privatising our refineries transparently (no Dangote/Otedola/OBJ/Danjuma front company allowed) and PPP arrangement should see Nigeria refining enough for domestic use and export in circa 2-3 years. I will digress a little to say this is why I find it disappointing that GEJ has effectively frittered 2 years away ,in what appears like a deliberate act of sabotage, when he panders to corruption via directing that the clearing house of corruption "turn" around our refineries in 24 months !!! That is a joke because we all know what will happen. That is highly irresponsible of GEJ and an indicator that he is leading for AGIP buddies like Otedola who will surely suffer if competent private hands ensure our refineries are working optimally within a year or two !!! I think it is obvious that GEJ's NNPC directive , directly frustrative of Nigeria's drive to refine enough oil, aligned with this move for subsidy "removal" hints at further Oligarchic efforts to create the next set of billioniares as we see successive governments doing. Furthermore , when everyone is bloated with money, I can bet any amount that Otedola, Dangote et al will be the beneficiary of any privatisation deal. Returning to the topic, with the PPP arrangements, the government can target specific model that may help it gain/retain ownership while mandating the private sector partner to carry on operations and maintenance. OMM, DBM and many other specific PPP arrangement fit but not BOT (build-operate-transfer) because once tranfered back to the FG fully we can expect the usual sharps practices that will derail issues. Corruption is going nowhere for a while so we must not let it anywhere near the 'Chickens'. http://www.ncppp.org/howpart/ppptypes.shtml OMM: Operations, Maintenance & Management With an ambitious project of getting refineries in Nigeria to produce enough for local demand and export , in the shortest time possible, talks of subsidy will die a natural death. So, rather than view this rigidly in terms of the right condition for subsidy removal we should expect a brave, sincere and reforming Government to simply tackle everything (subsidy, bunkering, racketeering, the need for export quantity refined oil and income, etc, etc) with a one size solution package i.e an aggressive drive to use everything possible to ensure refineries in Nigeria can deliver the spark to crank up the Nigerian engine . This was , more or less , what Ezekwesili warned when she insisted that GEJ must not remove subsidy until the Govenrment tackle "supply" effectively. |
Re: Discussing Fuel Subsidy Removal (please Let's Keep The Discussion Civil) by BP(m): 8:15am On Oct 28, 2011 |
jp philips: Bros, these are quotable quotes. I love these. Gbawe: Thanks Gbawe. I was making a mental note of googling up the meaning of OMM and DBM but I see that you have even gone the extra mile of explaining these concepts. I only knew about BOT before now. Something you said struck me. And it's the fact that we started "doing subsidy" when we couldn't get our refineries to produce to meet local demand. So like you said, the obvious solution would be to focus on refining enough to meet local consumption and even export refined products and we would have solved this issue and even create jobs and forex from exporting refined products. I think this is really straightforward (if I'm making all the right assumptions) except that there's no political will on the part of our leaders to fight entrenched interests. I really think OBJ would have been the person with the required kind of courage to have fought this except that he used his own courage to fight his political enemies instead of enemies of Nigeria's economic destiny. |
Re: Discussing Fuel Subsidy Removal (please Let's Keep The Discussion Civil) by jpphilips(m): 9:40am On Oct 28, 2011 |
[b]@ GBAWE thanks for the insight, i personally think that the subsidy is a chicken change if and only if jobaby will fight the corruption in the distribution chain. i was with some DPR guys the other day and they made me to understand that jobaby deserved to be stoned to death for even mentioning it and continued to wonder why NUPENG AND PENGASSEN has not gone on warning strike ever before now. these guys are the guys that take stock of what Nigeria earns daily and they are saying the figures are inflated big time. How can jobaby think that instead of sanitizing an agency he rather scrap the life wire of the masses, that is silly. since i was born, the NPF has been corrupt and inept can u proudly say that you will scrap NPF against reforming it? Nigeria is finished though i told beaf in April that corruption will bring Nigeria to its knees and that is what will happen in January. Fight corruption in the supply chain and subsidy will not be arm breaking for the govt. the importers over quote the imports,the storage guys give no accounts, the distributors pay heavy PR to reduce competitors thus enjoying great monopoly, after seeing all these, jobaby is happy to say he will scrap subsidy, what happens to making the system water tight and transparent? Anyways, when is NUPENG and PENGASSON joining the protest because my placard is ready, guess what i wrote on it; [/b]JONATHAN FIGHT CORRUPTION AND LEAVE SUBSIDY ALONE. He talks about 74% of national budget going to recurrent expenditure that may be true only if the budget is drafted from oil benchmark and proceeds. what happened to Gas exports? the economy is NOT collapsing Jobaby is bluffing. the 3 train Gorgon project in Australia operated by Chevron is producing 15million metric tonns of Gas annually, guess what? the Nigerian LNG in bonny alone has 5 operational trains with 6th and 7th under construction. who exactly is fooling who? gas sells for above $12/Gj I ve decided to be addressing Mr president as baby because he thinks like a child, i really don't blame that guy that calls him RETARDEEN. Jonathan, i need your resignation letter on my desk tomorrow |
Re: Discussing Fuel Subsidy Removal (please Let's Keep The Discussion Civil) by Nobody: 10:06am On Oct 28, 2011 |
And Nigerians will talk and talk and whine and whine with all sorts of mock demonstration. Majority just believe the subsidy makes fuel cheaper we will see the truth about that because like it or not subsidy will sail through and we will all see the true state of things one fine day. |
Re: Discussing Fuel Subsidy Removal (please Let's Keep The Discussion Civil) by Nobody: 10:20am On Oct 28, 2011 |
There is no subsidy on fuel to be removed government is simply being decietful by saying it is removing a non-existent subsidy. Government is just raising price of fuel to raise revenue, so it is really a type of tax. So why the deceit? Why does the government just not tell us the reason they want to raise the revenue? It has got to do with the fact that most of the money it raises would be looted away by the corrupt elite and it is being called a subsidy so that Government would not have to account for how they are going to spend the money raised. Why is nobody even asking government to quantify this "subsidy"? People please open uyour eyes and take notice, because in a few months you would be effectivley subsidising the lavish lifestyles of our corrupt elites, whilst you are thrown it extreme hardship. Weep for Nigeria!! |
Re: Discussing Fuel Subsidy Removal (please Let's Keep The Discussion Civil) by forkadict(m): 11:02am On Oct 28, 2011 |
jp philips: If i get you right, are you saying that it is possible to refine crude oil into petrol and other distillates, and sell petrol at N65/litre and still make profit? This question requires a yes or no answer and i need your answer. Next, you got the joint venture ratio wrong. It is roughly 60%:40% in favor of the Federal government. Third, you posited that from 1 barrel of crude oil, we will get at best 30% of petrol. My initial analysis assumed that 159 litres of crude equals 159 litres of petrol and yet i arrived at a pump price that was higher than the N65/litre that we buy at presently. If i were to do the analysis again with the assumption that 159 litres of petrol equals 73 litres of petrol, will our final pump price not be approaching N200/litre? Please remember other factors such as energy, remuneration, tax and profit margin that will come into the euqtion. Fourth, i stated in my initial post that before deregulation and the benefits therefrom can be fully achieved, corruption MUST be fought to a standstill and we both know that that is a near impossible feat to achieve. Not with the present crop of possessed, blood sucking, greedy kleptomaniacs with insatiable appetites. Deregulation without fighting corruptiong is only making life harsher and more unbearable for the average nigerian. FYI, i voted for Buhari in the last election. Not because if elected he would give us power, good roads, nice hospitals, standard education? NO. I voted for him because i knew he would fight corruption head on. Even if everything else comes to a standstll and we record tremendous wins in the fight against corruption, guy I'm cool with that. We can not and we will never progress as a nation unless we fight corruption. The earlier nigerians got that the better for us all. |
Re: Discussing Fuel Subsidy Removal (please Let's Keep The Discussion Civil) by forkadict(m): 11:13am On Oct 28, 2011 |
ayusco: No they can not. All our refineries put together at best can only handle 400,000 barrels of crude oil daily. Multiply this figure by 0.4 which is the portion of petrol contained in crude. This gives about 160,000 barrels of petrol. 1 barrel= 159 litres. So put together all our refineries when in their best operating conditions can only provide us with about 25 million litres of petrol/day. Our requirement is 32 million litres/day minimum. Note that this is the best case scenario. Speaking realistically all our refineries put together handle far less that 400,000 barrels/day. The balance will have to be imported. |
Re: Discussing Fuel Subsidy Removal (please Let's Keep The Discussion Civil) by forkadict(m): 11:29am On Oct 28, 2011 |
Speaking reallistically, naija is just not yet mature for deregulation. Because in the strict sense of the word, pump prices of petrol should vary in the same proportion as the price of crude oil in the world market. As the price of crude oil goes up especially in conflict times involving oil exporting nations then the price of petrol should also go up and when the price of crude oil comes down, the pump price of petrol should also come down. But we all know that in naija it is rare for prices of commodities after going up to come down. |
Re: Discussing Fuel Subsidy Removal (please Let's Keep The Discussion Civil) by jpphilips(m): 11:53am On Oct 28, 2011 |
If i get you right, are you saying that it is possible to refine crude oil into petrol and other distillates, and sell petrol at N65/litre and still make profit? This question requires a yes or no answer and i need your answer. YES, with more refineries and right operating conditions at worst if the cost of refining it soars the sale of distillates can be used to subsidize the more demanded ones, with local refining we will look beyond the price and profit from not just petrol but other distillates put together, yes again the profit will be higher Next, you got the joint venture ratio wrong. It is roughly 60%:40% in favor of the Federal government. please read this extract from my post again; Nigerian Govt is entitled to an average of 51% of the 2.5million barells produced daily which amounts to 1.275m barells daily from the above i said "AVERAGE" of 51%, the NNPC JV with SPDC is not the same as that of chevron, Exxon etc, using 60:40 as a sacrosanct ratio is unsafe that is why i used an average if you put all the JV's together Third, you posited that from 1 barrel of crude oil, we will get at best 30% of petrol. My initial analysis assumed that 159 litres of crude equals 159 litres of petrol and yet i arrived at a pump price that was higher than the N65/litre that we buy at presently. If i were to do the analysis again with the assumption that 159 litres of petrol equals 73 litres of petrol, will our final pump price not be approaching N200/litre? Please remember other factors such as energy, remuneration, tax and profit margin that will come into the euqtion. I have already answered that before in petroleum refining it is not a garbage in garbage out process some enhancers are employed to get exactly what we need. the ones that you don't need can be sold to subsidize the ones you need thereby bringing the price down. you made a mistake when you quantified the market price of crude with the price in Nigeria, it is far less. if crude gets to the international market it sells for 96usd but the cost of producing 1bbl of crude in Nigeria is far less than 96usd so it is obnoxious for you to be quantifying the price of crude in Nigeria, produced in Nigeria at 96usd per bbl i can modify ur analysis thus; 1bbl = 159l 1bbl outside naija = 96usd (ave) 1bbl inside naija (cost of production, labour etc) = less than 96usd, in other words, the crude in our refineries are less than 96usd in price do u get? now use this figure to run your analysis again, u will see that the pump price will be less than N65. Fourth, i stated in my initial post that before deregulation and the benefits therefrom can be fully achieved, corruption MUST be fought to a standstill and we both know that that is a near impossible feat to achieve. Not with the present crop of possessed, blood sucking, greedy kleptomaniacs with insatiable appetites. Deregulation without fighting corruptiong is only making life harsher and more unbearable for the average nigerian. I think we are on the same page here, on the bolded, you are an exceptional Nigerian keep it up |
Re: Discussing Fuel Subsidy Removal (please Let's Keep The Discussion Civil) by Gbenge77(m): 12:49pm On Oct 28, 2011 |
Let the Nigerian government accoumt for the billions of Naira lost through corruption before talking of subsidy removal |
Re: Discussing Fuel Subsidy Removal (please Let's Keep The Discussion Civil) by deking(m): 1:49pm On Oct 28, 2011 |
I am amazed at the comments of those who are clamouring for the removal of subsidy, the summary of their comments is that the government of the day is helpless. helplessness is a sign of weakness and it means your problems have overwhelmed you. If this is what GEJ is saying then He should be impeached. Lets look at the issues with subsidy which never should have been in the first place; 1. Only a few are benefitting from it. Many have claimed that the system is corrupt and that only a few benefit from milking the country dry. Question is can't the govt of the day overhaul the system? They are busy prosecuting Tinubu over his alleged ownership of 10 foreign accounts while in power yet can't seem to find solution to a present cancer devouring Nigeria. Are subsidies being paid to ghosts? Justice is fairness to all. 2. Nigeria has built almost every major thing in the last 12 years except for refineries. There must be a witch who is stopping this from being done. Abuja stadium, stadiums in Ogun, Rivers and other places, launching of a failed satellite, building of bridges, modern markets, lodge for senators, up coming rail lines, nobody has ever talked about building a refinery. dangote has single handedly built and commissioned atleast two cement factories, MTN, ETIsalat, Globacom, Airtel and other telecom operators have built networks around the country in the last 12 years, yet Nigeria as a country has not being able to build a single refinery. yet we claim we want to create jobs and improve the lives of out citizenry. Yes the government would remove subsidy and have more money to allocate to failed projects. Build 10 blocks of classroom for 10billion, supply 50000 exercises for 100 million and so on. i have told people time and over again nigeria is the only country that can prepare to host the worldcup in just 1 year. Let fifa proof me wrong. we can erect a stadium in less than a year but can't build a refinery in 12 years. Why, because before, during and after the event the monument is used as a source of looting. I wish you all Goodluck. But let all know that if fuel prices double, the average transporter is not a mathematician so rates will not increase based on per centages, it will be increased astronomically and the problem starts from there. when all our salary is capble of doing is to transport us and give us a lean meal. We will be willing to axe down the head of politicians that are milking us dry. |
Re: Discussing Fuel Subsidy Removal (please Let's Keep The Discussion Civil) by forkadict(m): 2:54pm On Oct 28, 2011 |
jp philips: You are joking right? If you are then I'm cool with it but if not then i cant help you. I have done all i think possible. Another way out for you is if you know any informed staff of Kaduna refining and petrochemical company or warri refining and petrochemical company or Portharcourt refinery. call them up and ask them maybe they will do a better job than i have in trying to make you understand that even if you have 1000 refineries, and as long as you sell a litre of petrolfor N65, then the government will continue to subsidise. Now the subsidy may not be as much as the figure the government quotes right now but subsidise, the government must. Moral of my story, you cant refine crude oil, incure the [b]FULL costs associated therewith, sell at N65/litre and still make a profit.[/b] jp philips: With Shell, the ratio is 55%:45% in favor of FG. With Exxon, it is 60%:40%, with Total it is 60% to 40% with Chevron, it is 60%:40% with Agip, it is 60%:40% all in favor of FG. The average of that isn't 51% in FG's favor. It is much more like 60%. That is arithmetic not even mathematics. jp philips: Now to the big one. Please be humble enough to go back to my first post on this thread. In my attempt to prove that the pump price of refined petrol is higher than the N65 we buy at right now, i didnt use the price of crude at the international market in my analysis. I used 65USD and not 96USD that you said i used. It really pays to calm down first and get one's facts right before attempting to critique one's opinion. With that said, i feel using 65USD as against 96USD per barrel of crude oil in my analysis is enough compensation to us for producing the crude oil. Further more, i didn't factor in energy, remuneration, tax , Distribution and marketing costs and profit into the analysis. By the time i factor in all these costs, do you still think that we will arrive at a pump price of N65 per litre jp philips: One does not need to be an exceptional nigerian to appreciate the fact that without fighting corruption, Nigeria can never progress as a nation. It is common sense. But do you really believe that there are people who believe that with corruption still prevalent in the system we can progress as a nation? If you know any such person, (if its a lady)please send them to me. i will fork some sense into their thick skulls. If the person is a guy, deal with the person yourself. |
Re: Discussing Fuel Subsidy Removal (please Let's Keep The Discussion Civil) by rhymz(m): 3:05pm On Oct 28, 2011 |
I see a looming REVOLT should the government do anything that will make the price of petrol go up to an unbearable amount; whether through removal of alleged subsidy or not. Nigeria will collapse under the weight of the problem that will arise from such an insensitive policy. Our economy is so PETROL-based that it entirely impossible to jack prices without the risk of a general increase in the prices of goods and services. How will Nigerians survive such an onslaught? I ve gone through the first contributory post by one Kh-guy, quite expository and good for reading, likewise Simon Kolawole's expose' but I still don't think scrapping whatever mechanism( subsidy or whatever fancy name used) that has managed to put the price in a fairly reachable price for Nigerians is the best decision in this regard. Let's not make it seem like such a quick fix is the only option we have to solving the problem. Such argument paints a picture of a government that has tried with all effort to fight the alleged corruption that has made useless of the so-called "subsidy" when in the actual sense, the government is only interested in a quick fix and has not bothered to exhaustively engage other options-having the "political will" to fight head-on this undisputed corruption champion. They seem too scared to want to avail the option of a head-on fight with the acclaimed cartel that will make them suffer more than a hundred million Nigerians. I find it curious that they are so reluctant to exert any political will to fight off the few spoilers of the fuel subsidy program but are all too willing to seek for easy rout through scrapping the program and further heightening the sufferings of millions of Nigeria just because of an unpopular few? This is like killing a fly with a sledge harmer, it is a no brainer. Why should I conclude-in the light of the revelation of the corruption that has become of the program- that the "subsidy" should be scrapped? As if there is going to be any corresponding development from the monies realized and saved in other areas that will directly cushion the effect? What has Nigeria ever done right that has not been boggled down by thesame corruption excuse? The only effect scrapping the subsidy will have on us is more hardship while the monies saved some how find their way to thesame criminals that is making us flirt with the idea of scrapping it. This is a very delicate, double edged sword problem, it can be liken to a fly that peeches on the scrotum, you leave it there it bites you and gives you disease; if you squash it, you run the danger of injuring yourself. |
Re: Discussing Fuel Subsidy Removal (please Let's Keep The Discussion Civil) by deleson: 3:15pm On Oct 28, 2011 |
Great thoughts and opinions here, However, would like to give this discussion a radio platform-so if you're interested in been my guest on radio in lagos, then sms 08154389195. Thanks. |
Re: Discussing Fuel Subsidy Removal (please Let's Keep The Discussion Civil) by jpphilips(m): 6:19pm On Oct 28, 2011 |
You are joking right? If you are then I'm cool with it but if not then i cant help you. I have done all i think possible. Another way out for you is if you know any informed staff of Kaduna refining and petrochemical company or warri refining and petrochemical company or Portharcourt refinery. call them up and ask them maybe they will do a better job than i have in trying to make you understand that even if you have 1000 refineries, and as long as you sell a litre of petrolfor N65, then the government will continue to subsidise. Now the subsidy may not be as much as the figure the government quotes right now but subsidise, the government must. No need to call anyone we still operate the process flow column of PRCN, guess i should call my cell, nobody is ruling out subsidy totally refer to my post above to see how Moral of my story, you cant refine crude oil, incure the FULL costs associated therewith, sell at N65/litre and still make a profit. Tell that to the Iranians,Venezuelans etc that produce and refine their oil how much losses their Govt has been incurring from time immemorial, it will not work in Nigeria because Nigeria is in Jupiter With Shell, the ratio is 55%:45% in favor of FG. With Exxon, it is 60%:40%, with Total it is 60% to 40% with Chevron, it is 60%:40% with Agip, it is 60%:40% all in favor of FG. The average of that isn't 51% in FG's favor. It is much more like 60%. That is arithmetic not even mathematics. what can i tell you here? the 51% was a fair Average i assigned to the FG because i didnt have the specifics that was why i used the word "SAFE" if you don't understand that 51% isn't factual but hypothetical, then i cant help you Now to the big one. Please be humble enough to go back to my first post on this thread. In my attempt to prove that the pump price of refined petrol is higher than the N65 we buy at right now, i didnt use the price of crude at the international market in my analysis. I used 65USD and not 96USD that you said i used. It really pays to calm down first and get one's facts right before attempting to critique one's opinion. sorry, i missed your 65usd but even at that it is still on the high side considering our enriched gulf of guinea with mostly self producing wells of an average of 5-10yrs after exploration and so many factors, brother 65usd is very high. spare us the economics, ask oil majors what their profit margin is and gasp for breath |
Re: Discussing Fuel Subsidy Removal (please Let's Keep The Discussion Civil) by kjhova(m): 8:26pm On Oct 30, 2011 |
It is true that N65/L PMS pump price in Nigeria is joint 14th cheapest in the world along with Algeria. However, it is still more expensive here in comparism to Iran, Venezuela & Saudi Arabia. These countries with considerably higher GDP per capita to Nigeria also heavily subsidize the product price. Again a difference btw them and us is that indigenous participation in production/refining value chain is more entrenched than in Nigeria. For shorts, they are better positioned to withstand the pressures of subsidy than we are. All over the world, from NWE to NEA to GME, the average ex-refinery price of PMS is between N106.26 to N117.45 per litre. Nigeria cannot refine PMS at a cost of less than N65/L even if she wanted to. Considering this fact and the realization that the economy will soon atrophy if we go on this way, I support the complete liberalization of the sector. But do I support the removal of subsidy? Not at all! Every government since the days of the Pharaohs subsidize one thing or the other to assist the citizens. Therefore my proposal is that we transfer the exact amount FGN has calculated as fuel subsidy costs for this year, N1Trillion plus, from PMS importation to the production of grains, poultry, food etc in Nigeria. A portion should go also to subsidizing the rising school fees in the country. It should also finance R& programs in our tertiary institution. Anything we decide, it must never go back into the general Federations Account only to be shared and looted outright by this same cabal we are being wary of. |
Re: Discussing Fuel Subsidy Removal (please Let's Keep The Discussion Civil) by Nobody: 9:51pm On Oct 30, 2011 |
Experts in Nigerian oil industry have stated that it cost Nigeria less than N65/litre to produce fuel. Which means that government is already making profit from fuel, the idea that they are removing some sort od subsidy is pure fiction. These experts are: General Buhari Tam David West. Who shall I believe? some self proclaimed know-it-all on Nairaland or the above 2 experts who know the Nigerian oil industry like the back of their hand? So why is government claiming that it is removing a subsidy that does not exist? I believe it is because they do not want to have to account to us for how they hare going to spend the revenue they raise from the price increases. Buhari says that we are going to be subsidizing the lifestyles of the corrupt elite -and the whole scam is sheer corruption! My preyers are with all of you! God bless us. |
Re: Discussing Fuel Subsidy Removal (please Let's Keep The Discussion Civil) by forkadict(m): 10:58am On Oct 31, 2011 |
jp philips: Which has been my point from my very first post. The subsidy may not be as much as the government claims at the moment. But there will be a subsidy still. GenBuhari: Fine. Of course you are at liberty to beleive whoever you choose to. But dont accept things just because some experts somewhere say so. That is what a soundly educated mind should and will never do. have those experts you mentioned given you figures anywhere in any medium that back up their claims? If so please share such analysis with us. I for one will be so happy to see the analysis. But i look you in the face and tell you that YOU WILL NOT BE ABLE TO GET BACK TO US ON THIS. kj_hova: Gos bless you on the emboldened. |
Re: Discussing Fuel Subsidy Removal (please Let's Keep The Discussion Civil) by Nobody: 5:15pm On Oct 31, 2011 |
^ Who is a better expert on the Nigerian Oil Industry than General Buhari? |
Re: Discussing Fuel Subsidy Removal (please Let's Keep The Discussion Civil) by forkadict(m): 8:54am On Nov 01, 2011 |
^^^^ What even qualifies General Buhari as an epert in the oil industry if i may ask you? |
Re: Discussing Fuel Subsidy Removal (please Let's Keep The Discussion Civil) by kjhova(m): 1:39pm On Nov 01, 2011 |
Hi guys, I just gleaned this information. Find below the pump price (in Naira estimates as at October) of PMS in countries around Nigeria. Cote D'Ivoire N184 Niger & Chad N164 Cameroon & Liberia N136 Egypt N64 Ghana N49 (Note that the global average pump price of PMS is N147.72/Litre. Also note that Cote D'Ivoire is currently the country of choice for importers who divert PMS products imported under the PSF scheme and meant for the Nigerian market) The question that immediately jump to ones mind after viewing the list above is don't we have more crude reserve than Ghana, why should petrol price be cheaper there? They also import a large chunk of their petroleum products requirement. Maybe they are on an unsustainable subsidy programme too. I really don't know about them. Maybe someone who knows about the Ghanaian model can school us on how it's done over there. It will be nice to know. |
Re: Discussing Fuel Subsidy Removal (please Let's Keep The Discussion Civil) by Nobody: 9:19pm On Nov 01, 2011 |
@fork adict What qualifies Buhari as an expert? Buhari has been a: Head of State Governor of North East Region of Nigeria Petroleum Minister Chairman of Nigerian National Petroleum Corporation Chairman of the now defunct Petroleum Trust Fund Now tell me a greater expert of the Nigerian Oil Industry than Buhari. fork adict: @kj_hova Most of the countries you are comparing their fuel prices with Nigeria are not net exporters of oil This means that our fuel prices should be approx only about 20% of the price of those countries that are non-exporters of oil. You need to compare like with like , if you want to do a meaningful analysis. Even so Ghana and Egypt have lower fuel prices than Nigeria. kj_hova: |
Re: Discussing Fuel Subsidy Removal (please Let's Keep The Discussion Civil) by Knight1(m): 9:40pm On Nov 01, 2011 |
i don't buy into addict's calculation REASON: according to the indices he used in arriving at those figures, all countries in the world should sell at above N65 or it's equivalent because those indices are common to all the countries. yet fuel is faaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaar less than N65 or it's equivalent in countries such as venezuela et al. are you saying those countries are also subsidising that much? |
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