RTi: Ruben (Abu Bakr), Revert to Islam

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I must confess, I really appreciate your patience in answering all those questions.
May God continue to strengthen you.

I accidentally came across this forum yesterday and decided to just go through some topics that I saw on Islam. I have now learned from you not to respond to people like Frisbell who is intentional trying not to understand whatever that is against her own believes.

omostar:

I must confess, I really appreciate your patience in answering all those questions.
May God continue to strengthen you.

I accidentally came across this forum yesterday and decided to just go through some topics that I saw on Islam. I have now learned from you not to respond to people like Frisbell who is intentional trying not to understand whatever that is against her own believes.

Jazaka Allahu Khairan (May Allah grant you goodness)

Make Dua for me Insha Allah

I have gone through this pretentious thread and can see right through it.
Instead of answering questions asked directly, you quote your koran to justify the unjustifiables.
Is your faith so weak as to not give yes and no answers?
Who are you trying to impress?
Without thrying to bamboozle me with your quotes can you give me a simple straight forward response to this question? Should someone that leaves islam be killed?
If you can, then I have many more to ask.
If you can't, then stop trying to be what you are not.

@logic mind the premise of your allegation is wrong. Islam and by extension logic demands that if you make a claim against anything religion included then you should be ready to back it up with facts from the source, and in the case of Islam the Quran is the source. Failure by the OP to provide sources in the Quran to back his argument will render them VOID AND NOTHING MORE THAN PERSONAL ASSERTIONS WHICH WILL BE WORTHLESS, because even you can make baseless accusations. So I don't understand you problem with quoting from the source. I would assume the OP is being scholarly

BIGER BOY:

@logic mind the premise of your allegation is wrong. Islam and by extension logic demands that if you make a claim against anything religion included then you should be ready to back it up with facts from the source, and in the case of Islam the Quran is the source. Failure by the OP to provide sources in the Quran to back his argument will render them VOID AND NOTHING MORE THAN PERSONAL ASSERTIONS WHICH WILL BE WORTHLESS, because even you can make baseless accusations. So I don't understand you problem with quoting from the source. I would assume the OP is being scholarly

I would have hoped that his personal opinions are guided by the holy scriptures. If thus he cannot say yes when his scriptures say no.
There is a reason why he can't answer no or yes to simple questions: word acrobatics to get out of difficult situation when cornered.
If your scripture is certain, they you should be straightfoward with your answers. Instead what we get are excuses upon excuses for injustices.
Can he answer my simple question then? Should someone that leaves islam be killed?

Logic Mind:

I would have hoped that his personal opinions are guided by the holy scriptures. If thus he cannot say yes when his scriptures say no.
There is a reason why he can't answer no or yes to simple questions: word acrobatics to get out of difficult situation when cornered.
If your scripture is certain, they you should be straightfoward with your answers. Instead what we get are excuses upon excuses for injustices.
Can he answer my simple question then? Should someone that leaves islam be killed?

Thanks for your Question, How can i have a personal opinion when this is the word of God?

There are questions that deserve more than just a yes or no answer. I try to give a clear and balanced picture to those who ask. My request is that they are open-minded and willing to learn, 

To your question: I will give a simple answer and would provide an explanation at your request. There is more to it and i will give more details if you want.

Answer

No, someone can not be killed for simply leaving Islam.

tbaba12345:

Thanks for your Question, How can i have a personal opinion when this is the word of God?

There are questions that deserve more than just a yes or no answer. I try to give a clear and balanced picture to those who ask. My request is that they are open-minded and willing to learn, 

Nothing is ever straight forward with you guys, always dancing around issues !!!

Answer

No, someone can not be killed for simply leaving Islam.

What an utter LIE !!!!!!



I just read these verses from the Religion of Peace website.

Let us consider these follow verses from your Quran and Hadiths.



Those who turn their back on Islam are to be executed.  This is confirmed by the words and deeds of Muhammad.  The only freedom of belief in Islam is the freedom to become Muslim.


The Qur'an:

Qur'an (4:89) - "They but wish that ye should reject Faith, as they do, and thus be on the same footing (as they): But take not friends from their ranks until they flee in the way of Allah (From what is forbidden). But if they turn renegades, seize them and slay them wherever ye find them"

Qur'an (9:11-12) - "But if they repent and establish worship and pay the poor-due, then are they your brethren in religion. We detail Our revelations for a people who have knowledge. And if they break their pledges after their treaty (hath been made with you) and assail your religion, then fight the heads of disbelief - Lo! they have no binding oaths - in order that they may desist."   

Other verses that seem to support the many Hadith demanding death for apostates are Qur'an verses 2:217, 9:73-74, 88:21, 5:54, and 9:66.

From the Hadith:


The reason why executing apostates has always been well-ensconced in Islamic law is that there is an indisputable record of Muhammad and his companions doing exactly that according to the reliable Hadith.  According to verse 4:80 of the Quran: "Whoso obeyeth the Messenger obeyeth Allah."


Bukhari (52:260) - ", The Prophet said, 'If somebody (a Muslim) discards his religion, kill him.' "  Note that there is no distinction as to how that Muslim came to be a Muslim.


Bukhari (83:37) - "Allah's Apostle never killed anyone except in one of the following three situations: (1) A person who killed somebody unjustly, was killed (in Qisas,) (2) a married person who committed illegal intimate intercourse and (3) a man who fought against Allah and His Apostle and deserted Islam and became an apostate."


Bukhari (84:57) - [In the words of] "Allah's Apostle, 'Whoever changed his Islamic religion, then kill him.'"


Bukhari (89:271) - A man who embraces Islam, then reverts to Judaism is to be killed according to "the verdict of Allah and his apostle."


Bukhari (84:58) - "There was a fettered man beside Abu Muisa. Mu'adh asked, 'Who is this (man)?'  Abu Muisa said, 'He was a Jew and became a Muslim and then reverted back to Judaism.'  Then Abu Muisa requested Mu'adh to sit down but Mu'adh said, 'I will not sit down till he has been killed. This is the judgment of Allah and His Apostle (for such cases) and repeated it thrice.'  Then Abu Musa ordered that the man be killed, and he was killed. Abu Musa added, 'Then we discussed the night prayers'"


Bukhari (84:64-65) - "Allah's Apostle: 'During the last days there will appear some young foolish people who will say the best words but their faith will not go beyond their throats (i.e. they will have no faith) and will go out from (leave) their religion as an arrow goes out of the game. So, wherever you find them, kill them, for whoever kills them shall have reward on the Day of Resurrection.'"

Abu Dawud (4346) - "Was not there a wise man among you who would stand up to him when he saw that I had withheld my hand from accepting his allegiance, and kill him?"  Muhammad is chastising his companions for allowing an apostate to "repent" under duress.  (The person in question was Muhammad's former scribe who left him after doubting the authenticity of divine "revelations" upon finding out that he could suggest grammatical changes.  He was brought back to Muhammad after having been captured in Medina).


Islamic Law:

There is also a consensus by all four schools of Sunni Islamic jurisprudence (i.e., Maliki, Hanbali, Hanafi, and Shafii), as well as classical Shiite jurists, that apostates from Islam must be put to death.  The process of declaring a person to be an apostate is known as takfir and the apostate is called a murtadd.


Averroes (d. 1198), the renowned philosopher and scholar of the natural sciences, who was also an important Maliki jurist, provided this typical Muslim legal opinion on the punishment for apostasy: "An apostate, is to be executed by agreement in the case of a man, because of the words of the Prophet, 'Slay those who change their din [religion]', Asking the apostate to repent was stipulated as a condition, prior to his execution."


The contemporary (i.e., 1991) Al-Azhar (Cairo) Islamic Research Academy endorsed manual of Islamic Law, Umdat al-Salik (pp. 595-96) states: "Leaving Islam is the ugliest form of unbelief (kufr) and the worst,  When a person who has reached puberty and is sane voluntarily apostasizes from Islam, he deserves to be killed. In such a case, it is obligatory, to ask him to repent and return to Islam. If he does it is accepted from him, but if he refuses, he is immediately killed."




Deny all of your scripture above and I will call you a heretic.

Who are you kidding and when on earth will you guys stop lying.

Well, Frosbel beat me to it and did a better job than I could have done. Thanks.
I await the op's response.

Logic Mind:

Well, Frosbel beat me to it and did a better job than I could have done. Thanks.
I await the op's response.

Thanks, I expected that.

It is my hope that you are willing to learn about Islam and not just out to attack. I will give an explanation of the apostasy law in Islam.

Like i said earlier, the act of simply converting is not punishable by death. It is easy to quote hadiths but it is important to understand the history and the context of every hadith. The verses quoted from the Quran have nothing to do with the apostasy law.

The first thing to say is that in islam, there is no compulsion in religion,  The Quran(translated) states:

Let there be no compulsion in religion: Truth stands out clear from Error: whoever rejects evil and believes in Allah hath grasped the most trustworthy hand-hold, that never breaks. And Allah heareth and knoweth all things. (Quran 2:256)

However in an Islamic state, there are certain conditions where conversion is accompanied with acts that could be considered treasonable by the state. The punishment for treason is death.

Like i said, the act of just conversion is not punishable in most cases, however if that conversion is accompanied by an attempt to discredit Islam or propagate another religion within the islamic state, It is considered treasonable.

The apostacy law came about during the time of the prophet;

In order to discredit Islam, some Jews in medina would accept islam in the day and  leave by sunset; They continued to do so until the law was put in place.

Guess how many people did so the next day? None.

The point is this, under an Islamic state:

If you want to convert,you are free.  however your conversion should not be accompanied by actions that are deemed treasonable by the state.

Explanation of the law

Afzal ur-Rahman in Muhammad, Blessing for Mankind, Seerah Foundation, London, Revised Second Edition, 1988, p. 218 under "Apostasy" states:

"People who turn away from Islam and do not repent but wage war and create mischief in the land are also considered as murderers

The punishment can only be carried out by an Islamic state.

tbaba12345:

Thanks,

Like i said earlier, the act of simply converting is not punishable by death. It is easy to quote hadiths but it is important to understand the history and the context of every hadith.

The first thing to say is that in islam, there is no compulsion in religion,  The Quran(translated) states:

Let there be no compulsion in religion: Truth stands out clear from Error: whoever rejects evil and believes in Allah hath grasped the most trustworthy hand-hold, that never breaks. And Allah heareth and knoweth all things. (Quran 2:256)

However in an Islamic state, there are certain conditions where conversion is accompanied with acts that could be considered treasonable by the state. The punishment for treason is death.

Like i said, the act of just conversion is not punishable in most cases, however if that conversion is accompanied by an attempt to discredit Islam or propagate another religion within the islamic state, It is considered treasonable.

The apostacy law came about during the time of the prophet;

In order to discredit Islam, some Jews in medina would accept islam in the day and  leave by sunset; They continued to do so until the law was put in place.

Guess how many people did so the next day? None.

The point is this, under an Islamic state:

If you want to convert,you can,  however your conversion should not be accompanied by actions that are deemed treasonable by the state.

You must skipped even the Quranic  verses I posted above to come to this conclusion.

Please tell the truth.


Anyway , I have made my point.

Logic Mind:

I have gone through[b] this pretentious thread and can see right through it[/b].
Instead of answering questions asked directly, you quote your koran to justify the unjustifiables.
Is your faith so weak as to not give yes and no answers?
Who are you trying to impress?
Without thrying to bamboozle me with your quotes can you give me a simple straight forward response to this question? Should someone that leaves islam be killed?
If you can, then I have many more to ask.
If you can't, then stop trying to be what you are not.

In one sentence you summed up everything that tbaba12345 stands for. Another muslim fundamentalist hiding under the veneer of western ideology, struggling to paint a false image of islam as no more dangerous than being a mormon in America. Well we know the truth.

tbaba12345:

The first thing to say is that in islam, there is no compulsion in religion,  The Quran(translated) states:

Let there be no compulsion in religion: Truth stands out clear from Error: whoever rejects evil and believes in Allah hath grasped the most trustworthy hand-hold, that never breaks. And Allah heareth and knoweth all things. (Quran 2:256)

first of all, lets erase this clear and deliberate dishonesty. Your own explanations below indicate in no uncertain terms that in islamic nations, there IS compulsion in religion!

tbaba12345:

However in an Islamic state, there are certain conditions where conversion is accompanied with acts that could be considered treasonable by the state. The punishment for treason is death.

Like i said, the act of just conversion is not punishable in most cases, however if that conversion is accompanied by an attempt to discredit Islam or propagate another religion within the islamic state, It is considered treasonable.

Wait . . . trying to "propagate another religion" within an islamic state is punishable by death BUT there is no compulsion in religion? Does this make a shred of sense to anyone else?

tbaba12345:

The apostacy law came about during the time of the prophet;

In order to discredit Islam, some Jews in medina would accept islam in the day and  leave by sunset; They continued to do so until the law was put in place.

Guess how many people did so the next day? None.

This is meaningless. Some jews accept islam in the day then revert back to judaism in the evening ALL as a way of discrediting islam? How absurd. I can think of far easier ways to discredit islam than having to waste my time reciting the shahada. Obviously this is a cooked up, fraudulent excuse. If indeed there is no compulsion in religion as the quran dishonestly would like us to believe, shouldnt these jews be free to convert and revert every 5 mins if they so choose? Why was a law instituted to forcefully take away their freedom to choose their own religion?

Secondly, the "law" put in place was to control what? Stop jews from accepting islam in the day or stopping them from leaving islam by sunset? But at the the same time there is NO compulsion in religion? Tell that to the birds you dishonest slaves of satan.

tbaba12345:

The point is this, under an Islamic state:

If you want to convert,you are free.

So we are free to convert but are not free to revert if we so choose by sunset?

tbaba12345:

  however your conversion should not be accompanied by actions that are deemed treasonable by the state.

And these vague treasonable actions would be? Leaving islam at sunset? Preaching christianity to my own father?

tbaba12345:

Explanation of the law

Afzal ur-Rahman in Muhammad, Blessing for Mankind, Seerah Foundation, London, Revised Second Edition, 1988, p. 218 under "Apostasy" states:

"People who turn away from Islam and do not repent but wage war and create mischief in the land are also considered as murderers

This again is simply stup[i]i[/i]d. How many people who leave islam are interested in "waging war"? What war are they waging and why would they be interested in doing so?

tbaba12345:

The punishment can only be carried out by an Islamic state.

In short there is NO compulsion in religion ONLY if you live in a liberal christian country where muslims are in the minority. The minute you live in an islamic state you are subject to trumped up charges of "treason" as an excuse to justify murdering you.

If you are still wondering why i continously claim that what muslims practice in the west is NOT real islam but a watered-down, pretentious, white-washed version to appeal to western sensibilities . . . then you are have just been decieved by these despicable sons of satan.

This thread is to respond to questions of people willing to learn about Islam. It is not for debates.

I will provide responses to the Questions asked by genuine seekers and i will ignore people who are just out for a debate. Like the title says, this is for those who want to know not those who think they know.

May God guide us all.

The Bond of Faith

If one were to ask many today as to what the strongest bond there could possibly be among people, most of them would probably answer something like blood relationship, ethnic origin, nationality and so forth. Actually, the Quran shows that these types of bonds are not that strong if the foundation behind them is weak. In the Quran, God gives the examples of Cain and Abel, who were two brothers yet one killed the other, as well as the example of the brethren of Joseph, who cast Joseph into a well. Those were all blood relatives; however, they put this world above their relationship with others. Such is occurring today throughout the world. The ties between the people are subservient to their desires, goals and wants of this world. Many individuals are quickly and easily willing to sell out their own kith and kin to get ahead in this world or to get something they want in this world.

All of this demonstrates one thing: When the ties between people are based on worldly considerations, even if they are originally blood ties, then those ties are given up when the worldly considerations so demand them to be given up. Hence, those are not the strongest ties that can be built among people. The strongest ties that can be achieved between people are the ties of Islam and true faith. These are the bonds forged between people that are solely the result of their belief in God and their love for God. This was clearly pointed out by God in the Quran when God stated:

“And He has united their (believers’) hearts. If you had spent all that is in the earth, you could not have united their hearts, but God has united them. Certainly, He is All-Mighty, All-Wise.” (Quran 8:63)

God also says:

“And hold fast, all of you together, to the Rope of God, and be not divided among yourselves, and remember God’s favor on you, for you were enemies and He joined your hearts together, so that by His grace, you became brethren and you were on a brink of a Pit of Fire, and He saved you from it. Thus God makes clear His signs to you, that you may be guided.” (Quran 3:103)

The Quran and the Sunnah show that the bond of faith is the strongest of all bonds. It represents humans from all over the world coming together for one purpose only: to establish the worship God alone. To achieve that goal, Muslims work together and help one another in compassion mercy and love.

There are actually numerous texts of the Quran and hadith that demonstrate beyond any doubt that Muslims are to form one universal, international brotherhood and sisterhood. For the sake of brevity, only a few examples of those texts will be presented here:

God says:

“The believers, men and women, are auliyaa (helpers, supporters, friends, protectors) of one another, they enjoining what is good and eradicate what is evil. They offer the prayers and pay the zakat and obey God and His Messenger. Surely, God will have His Mercy on them. Surely, God is All-Mighty, All-Wise.” (Quran 9:71)

Another verse reads:

“The believers are nothing else but brothers…” (Quran 49:10)

God also says:

“Muhammad is the Messenger of God, and those who are with him are severe against disbelievers and merciful among themselves…” (Quran 48:29)

The Prophet, may the mercy and blessings of God be upon him, said:

“The believer with respect to another believer is like a building, one portion strengthening the other.” (Saheeh al-Bukhari and Saheeh Muslim)

Another hadith states:

“The parable of the believers with respect to their love, mercy and compassion for one another is like that of the body: if one of its limbs is hurting, the remainder of the body is afflicted by sleeplessness and fever.” (Saheeh Muslim)

But this great brotherhood of Islam is not something simply theoretical. It is, in fact, well defined and supported by practical guidance. It has certain basic components to it and specific rights and obligations that are spelled out in the Quran and Sunnah. These rights and obligations are due to every Muslim, of every time and place.

tbaba12345:

This thread is to respond to questions of people willing to learn about Islam. It is not for debates.

I will provide responses to the Questions asked by genuine seekers and i will ignore people who are just out for a debate. Like the title says, this is for those who want to know not those who think they know.

May God guide us all.

In short you really have no answers to the murderous intolerance as espoused by the demonic quran? In short even you understand how silly your own attempts to explain away the impossible has become? I'm not surprised you would rather spend your time copy-pasting the lies of others than confronting the incoherence of the political ideology of satan masquerading as a religion.

you are absolutely right that this thread is open to people who want to understand islam, but understanding that death is the penalty for reverting from islam is also part of learning about it too.

tbaba12345:

But this great brotherhood of Islam is not something simply theoretical. It is, in fact, well defined and supported by practical guidance. It has certain basic components to it and specific rights and obligations that are spelled out in the Quran and Sunnah. These rights and obligations are due to every Muslim, of every time and place.

Do you also educate people that this "great brotherhood" dictates death to those who dare quit by sunset like those poor jews? Like logicminded said, your type is far more insiduous than the comedic nuisance that lagosShia is. you paint a mythical picture of islam as this oh so wonderful religion that is no different from the average fundamentalist christian. Unfortunately we have many who have been blinded by the white-washed version of islam presented by muslims in the west . . . many of whom could pass as your average atheist.

tbaba12345:

God also says:

“And hold fast, all of you together, to the Rope of God, and be not divided among yourselves, and remember God’s favor on you, for you were enemies and He joined your hearts together, so that by His grace, you became brethren and you were on a brink of a Pit of Fire, and He saved you from it.  Thus God makes clear His signs to you, that you may be guided.” (Quran 3:103)

The Quran and the Sunnah show that the bond of faith is the strongest of all bonds.  It represents humans from all over the world coming together for one purpose only: to establish the worship God alone.  To achieve that goal, Muslims work together and help one another in compassion mercy and love.

Except of course these grandiose ideas of "compassion, mercy and love" does not exist anywhere in a predominantly muslim nation.

Syria
Pakistan
Gaza
Sudan
Libya
Tunisia
Iraq
Iran
Jordan
Lebanon
Yemen
Egypt
Morrocco
Bahrain
Somalia
Afghanistan
Bangladesh
India

where the heck is the "compassion, mercy and love" allah was waxing lyrical about? Why arent muslims rushing to these havens of allah's esteemed brotherhood of the faith rather than killing themselves to enter countries of the "great satan" like Europe and the US? Even the decietful tbaba12345 would rather live in peaceful, prosperous America than the brotherhood of Allah. He knows better . . . allah's nonsensical theorizing is just what it is . . . empty words.
The spirit behind islam is that of violence, hate and destruction . . . it is no surprise that peace is never to be found among his people. It is no surprise that the most peaceful and most free muslims in the middle east all happen to live in ISRAEL!

tbaba12345:

This thread is to respond to questions of people willing to learn about Islam. It is not for debates.

I will provide responses to the Questions asked by genuine seekers and i will ignore people who are just out for a debate. Like the title says, this is for those who want to know not those who think they know.

May God guide us all.

This is nairaland. Not your personal blog.

If you had come out and defended your faith as stated in the verses that frosbel quoted, no matter how absurd it may seem to you, I would have take you seriously. However your attempt to sidestep your book and hadiths has shown you as a great hypocrite.
All the reasons you gave why people may be killed for leaving islam are valid for killing people in almost any country, islamic or not: treason, waging war against the state, etc.

When davidylan called you out, you wavered and hid behind "respond to questions of people willing to learn about Islam. It is not for debates"
Well if anyone is really willing to learn about Islam, this response will show them the fundamentals your religion: It is a religion that despises questions and knowledge. It is a "do as you are told and ask no questions" religion. It is a religion that relies on fear and oppression. It is a religion that will go as far as sanction the murder of those that dare question it. It is a religion that preaches and practices intolerance. It is a religion of anger and hatred. It is a religion of deceit and wickedness.
These are only the tip of the iceberg.
I had more questions but as you are being disingenuous with your responses, I don't see any need to ask. Look for someone else to deceive.

Logic Mind:

If you had come out and defended your faith as stated in the verses that frosbel quoted, no matter how absurd it may seem to you, I would have take you seriously. However your attempt to sidestep your book and hadiths has shown you as a great hypocrite.
All the reasons you gave why people may be killed for leaving islam are valid for killing people in almost any country, islamic or not: treason, waging war against the state, etc.

When davidylan called you out, you wavered and hid behind "respond to questions of people willing to learn about Islam. It is not for debates"
Well if anyone is really willing to learn about Islam, this response will show them the fundamentals your religion:

I have answered your question and I gave the historical backdrop of the law. I gave you the Muslim understanding of the law.

You called me a hypocrite for telling you the truth, because it is not what you want to hear.  Side-stepping hadiths/verses? Verses that have nothing to do with the question?

I have had debates with frosbel and davidylan on other threads and would not have it here,  If they raise a valid point regarding the issue i will address it. But they haven't.

I have always said i would not get into debates(you can check my first few posts). so your 'wavering'  remark is off the mark.

It is fine if you do not like my answer, I can't please everyone.

Maybe someday we can have a logical discussion like your name suggests and talk about all your reservations about Islam. I hope you will be willing to accept  truthful answers then.

Until then
all the best.

Surah Mulk - Mishary Raashed Alafasy

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[Quote] Re: Questions For Muslims: For Those Who Want To Know
« #239 on: January 31, 2012, 05:11 AM »

Quote from: tbaba12345 on January 31, 2012, 04:48 AM
But this great brotherhood of Islam is not something simply theoretical. It is, in fact, well defined and supported by practical guidance. It has certain basic components to it and specific rights and obligations that are spelled out in the Quran and Sunnah. These rights and obligations are due to every Muslim, of every time and place.

Do you also educate people that this "great brotherhood" dictates death to those who dare quit by sunset like those poor jews? Like logicminded said, your type is far more insiduous than the comedic nuisance that lagosShia is. you paint a mythical picture of islam as this oh so wonderful religion that is no different from the average fundamentalist christian.[/Quote]The second bold apart from the mythical qualification of it, is the way how my father presented Islam to us, even those of us his children from Christian mother. We accepted it in spite of living with our mother, without spending so much nights in the same home as our Muslim father. This is the way I have presented the religion to my mother who is now a muslim, Alhamdulillah.


[QUote] Unfortunately we have many who have been blinded by the white-washed version of islam presented by muslims in the west . . . many of whom could pass as your average atheist.[/Quote]In America? From the hardcore black community? Are you for real, david dylan or are your david Koresh in spirit? You must be, because your lies are at the top rivaling that of your father satan paul the liar and killer of old. Tell me whats good about Christianity and I will give you better from Islam. And not every jew is an enemy of Allah. But every kufar is.

@Frosbel: Quran is where you have verse/verses. Not in hadith which we categorize by its concept/book, number.

So let me talk about the verses you quoted first. There are hadith on the verses and what you listed as hadith below may or not be hadith relevant to them, and may actually be weak hadith. I will demonstrate a known hadith that has now been classified as weak based on many or a single qualifier.

[Quote]Those who turn their back on Islam are to be executed. This is confirmed by the words and deeds of Muhammad. The only freedom of belief in Islam is the freedom to become Muslim.

The Qur'an:

Qur'an (4:89) - "They but wish that ye should reject Faith,[/Quote]Who are this "they" but people of Makka who are Pagans, since Surah Nisaa is a Makkan Surah?


[QUote] as they do,[/Quote]WHo are these people except the kufar of Makka?


[QUote] and thus be on the same footing (as they):[/Quote]To be disbelievers like them. Is that what a prophet of God aspires to be? Do you want to be a disbeliever, frosbel, though you are not a prophet?


[Quote] But take not friends from their ranks until they flee in the way of Allah (From what is forbidden).[/Quote]The Bible even say the christian should not take non christian as friends, in the do not be yoked with unbelievers.


[Quote] But if they turn renegades, seize them and slay them wherever ye find them"[/Quote]How do people turn renegades, except they are after your very life, your happiness, making life difficult for you, stopping you from what God has provided for you of human instinctive good values? If a man wants to kill you, will you let him have his way without a fight and if in the process he dies you will not be better for it? If this is not your position, I pity your miserable soul. Your family will be in a peril and you will not be able to stand to protect them or die trying.


[Quote]Qur'an (9:11-12) - "But if they repent and establish worship and pay the poor-due, then are they your brethren in religion.[/Quote]Is a non christian a brethren of Christian in religion, except that he becomes a christian? Every society collects taxes. Religious community collects taxes based on religion.


[Quote] We detail Our revelations for a people who have knowledge.[/Quote] knowledge is what makes a person abandon disbelief and enter Islam.


[Quote] And if they break their pledges after their treaty (hath been made with you) [/b]and [b]assail your religion, then fight the heads of disbelief - Lo! they have no binding oaths - in order that they may desist." [/Quote]Do you truly have any disagreement with this? Imagine if Islam is America. Could she not be justified as we all justified america against al qaidah? Don't you have any wisdom or satan take all that God has given you?


[Quote]Other verses that seem to support the many Hadith demanding death for apostates are Qur'an verses 2:217, 9:73-74, 88:21, 5:54, and 9:66.[/Quote]Present the verses so that we can talk about them. Lets even accept that the two above was against the people of Madina. Islam is justified by the fact that they broke their oath and they assailed Islam.

^^^


Yawn !!


Another rambling exercise in futility

Assalam alaykum tbaba123, i just want to say jazakumuLLAHU khayran, may Allah continue to be your strength amin.
with this thread, you've made me understand islam more, its really appropriate to say islam is a religion of knowledge, without adequate knowledge and understanding, one might end up loosing faith.
personally, i believe that those who try to anhilate islam are really doing consious muslim and those seeking the truth a favour, by quoting their fears and follies about islam, they give opportunity for the explanation of what islam is really all about.
Tbaba123, i'll definately remember you and all other muslims on this forum in my dua's. Fi 'amaniLLAH!

sino:

Assalam alaykum tbaba123, i just want to say jazakumuLLAHU khayran, may Allah continue to be your strength amin.
with this thread, you've made me understand islam more, its really appropriate to say islam is a religion of knowledge, without adequate knowledge and understanding, one might end up loosing faith.
personally, i believe that those who try to anhilate islam are really doing consious muslim and those seeking the truth a favour, by quoting their fears and follies about islam, they give opportunity for the explanation of what islam is really all about.
Tbaba123, i'll definately remember you and all other muslims on this forum in my dua's. Fi 'amaniLLAH!

Wa iyyakum bro. Love you for the sake of Allah.

tbaba12345:

Wa iyyakum bro. Love you for the sake of Allah.

But ALLAH does not LOVE , how can this be

@Frosbel: [Quote]From the Hadith:

The reason why executing apostates has always been well-ensconced in Islamic law is that there is an indisputable record of Muhammad and his companions doing exactly that according to the reliable Hadith.  According to verse 4:80 of the Quran: "Whoso obeyeth the Messenger obeyeth Allah."[/Quote]How does this now becomes the tool of killing anyone who simply left islam? Muhammad [as] himself and indeed all his companions [as] and muslims who are sincere in their following him must obey Allah in these verses, destroying your lies above:
4/137; Indeed, those who have believed then disbelieved, then believed, then disbelieved, and then increased in disbelief - never will Allah forgive them, nor will He guide them to a way.
3/90; But those who reject Faith after they accepted it, and then go on adding to their defiance of Faith,- never will their repentance be accepted; for they are those who have (of set purpose) gone astray.


[Quote]Bukhari (52:260) - ", The Prophet said, 'If somebody (a Muslim) discards his religion, kill him.' "  Note that there is no distinction as to how that Muslim came to be a Muslim.[/Quote]Apart from the fact that you deceitfully entered Muslim in it as your own explanation, the hadith is rendered weak by the above verses and many other, including the famous no compulsion in religion.
[5:1] O you who believe, you shall fulfill your covenants. ,
[5:89] GOD does not hold you responsible for the mere utterance of oaths; He , If you turn away, then know that the sole duty of our messenger is to deliver the message efficiently.
[33:28] O prophet, say to your wives, "If you are seeking this life and its vanities, then let me , (You have a greater responsibility.) , And, the guidance comes from the Quran and the duty of a messenger is to deliver the message of God.


[Quote]Bukhari (83:37) - "Allah's Apostle never killed anyone except in one of the following three situations: (1) A person who killed somebody unjustly, was killed (in Qisas,) (2) a married person who committed illegal intimate intercourse and (3) a man who fought against Allah and His Apostle and deserted Islam and became an apostate."[/Quote]it is "deserted Islam and became apostate, then fought Allah and His messenger! Use your sense because how does anyone still in Islam fought Allah and His Messenger, except he was not in islam, playing deceit in the same way as you dishonest here? So say that you went to the premier university of nigeria, is really a shame that you are thinking like this. you can do better. or return the diploma to them!


[Quote]Bukhari (84:57) - [In the words of] "Allah's Apostle, 'Whoever changed his Islamic religion, then kill him.'"[/Quote]. . . But the widespread assumption that Islam pronounces death for apostasy (ridda, irtidad) can be most persuasively challenged and definitively rejected from the evidence of the Qur’an and the actions of the Prophet and his Companions. . . .
. . .   The actions of the Prophet himself give no credence to the belief that apostates who were not waging unprovoked war on Muslims should be killed. Several individuals and groups left Islam during the life of the Prophet, some of them several times, but he never called for their death. One of his scribes recanted and was unabashed in his apostasy, claiming that “Muhammad only knows what I wrote for him!”, but in spite of this the Prophet left him completely free and interceded for the man on his deathbed. A group of twelve Muslims recanted and left Medina for Mecca, but the Prophet did not spill any of their blood nor did he pronounce the death penalty on any of them. Two young men converted to Christianity and their father asked the Prophet to curse them, but instead he recited the verse, There shall be no coercion in matters of faith (Qur’an 256).

 These cases, and others, prove that the Prophet did not know, command or apply any penal code for apostasy. . . .
theamericanmuslim.org/, /extract_from_introduction_to_the_book_,


[Quote](89:271) - A man who embraces Islam, then reverts to Judaism is to be killed according to "the verdict of Allah and his apostle."[/Quote]read the above and know jews are not special people in the eye of islam. the prophet [as] says that no arab is superior to non arab [jew is in this group], no non arab [jew is in this group] is superior to arab, except superiority with Allah in Islam is by God consciousness or piety. Allah says in the Quran it is heart in intention that is seen, in the obedience to Allah.


[Quote]Bukhari (84:58) - "There was a fettered man beside Abu Muisa. Mu'adh asked, 'Who is this (man)?'  Abu Muisa said, 'He was a Jew and became a Muslim and then reverted back to Judaism.'  Then Abu Muisa requested Mu'adh to sit down but Mu'adh said, 'I will not sit down till he has been killed. This is the judgment of Allah and His Apostle (for such cases) and repeated it thrice.'  Then Abu Musa ordered that the man be killed, and he was killed. Abu Musa added, 'Then we discussed the night prayers'"[/Quote]Lets assume that you are correct that the man was killed. But he was not killed because he simply left Islam and return to judaism. He must have been those who mounted offensive acts of war against Islam, the power at that time. America mounted war against her enemy that mounted offensive act of war against her.


[Quote](84:64-65) -"Allah's Apostle: 'During the last days there will appear some young foolish people who will say the best words but their faith will not go beyond their throats (i.e. they will have no faith) and will go out from (leave) their religion as an arrow goes out of the game. So, wherever you find them, kill them, for whoever kills them shall have reward on the Day of Resurrection.'"[/Quote]If I take this hadith for its face value, I will have to come back to interlace it with all the others and definitely the Quran which it must explain. My conclusion is that they will be poisonous to believers, by being a source of aggression. They may be the ones who encouraged others to waylay muslims so that muslims are not left in peace to practice their religion and even wage wars in doing so.


[Quote]Abu Dawud (4346) - "Was not there a wise man among you who would stand up to him when he saw that I had withheld my hand from accepting his allegiance, and kill him?"  Muhammad is chastising his companions for allowing an apostate to "repent" under duress.  (The person in question was Muhammad's former scribe who left him after doubting the authenticity of divine "revelations" upon finding out that he could suggest grammatical changes.  He was brought back to Muhammad after having been captured in Medina).[/Quote]Muhammad [as] is unlike a local or community prophet [as]. He was the one that Allah used to answer the prayer of Ibrahim [as]. He was the one that Allah raised to fulfill the prophesy of Another comforter [Ahmad [as]] of Jesus and the one that when mankind is fully complete by nations, Allah send without a comrade of prophet of his time; He was the seal of even prophet-hood and definitely that of messenger-ship. If he ordered the death of anyone, you will see that the person has lost all human value, just like Jesus called some vipers, adulterous and evil generations [nothing came out of those people that Jesus called evil. Or was Jesus wrong and they became great spiritually? This is for you to think about, Frosbel, Davidlyan, etc]. In the matter of the future, this same person that the messenger [as] says must be killed will be spreader of evil, similar to those who Jesus predicted that he will reject on that day, while you; Frosbel, Davidylan take them as great christians because they perform miracles now to the glory of Jesus! These men were inspired agents of God; His Mouthpiece on earth in their times before the next prophet [as]. Muhammad [as] was the last of them.

tbaba12345:

Wa iyyakum bro. Love you for the sake of Allah.

May He for whom you have loved me,love you. Thank you.

sweetnecta and tbaba may Allah continue to bless you for this good work. please dont get tired of explaing your selves over and over again.

How the Bible Led Me to Islam: The Story of a Former Christian Youth Minister - Joshua Evans

[flash=500,400]
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IYMKQKSV0bY[/flash]

tbaba1234:

How the Bible Led Me to Islam: The Story of a Former Christian Youth Minister - Joshua Evans

[flash=500,400]
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IYMKQKSV0bY[/flash]

How hilarious.

Deception must be in your blood.

Admit it, ISLAM is false, Jesus is Lord and is risen.

15-Signs of the Last Day - The Proof That Islam Is The Truth - Abdur-Raheem Green

[flash=500,400]
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HTxZLB7qTS8[/flash]