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Of Jesus, God, Forgiveness And Final Judgement - Religion - Nairaland

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Of Jesus, God, Forgiveness And Final Judgement by plaetton: 10:17pm On Nov 15, 2011
When I was much younger, I had tried to make sense of the conflicting and sometimes confusing teachings of christianity. Although these teachings form the core of the christian belief system, I have not gained a satisfactory understanding on the messages. I invite all to share their views or their own understanding on these.

1. We have been made to believe from childhood that Jesus sacrificed his life on the cross to bear all our sins, and by that sacrifice we are saved. It is further emphasized that by accepting that sacrifice, we are free and our place in heaven is assured.

My questions are:
(A)Since Jesus died long before I was born, what sin of mine did he die for and what exactly did he save me from? (B). If my sins(the ones I have commited and the ones am yet to commit) have been cleansed by the blood of Jesus, then where lies my responsibility to live a sin-free life?

2.Again we have been made to believe from childhood that the merciful god forgives all our sins, especially when we pray and ask him.If so, then:

(A) What sins are there to forgive since the sacrifice of Jesus automatically wipes away our sins? (B) even if there are leftover God will judge our sins and punish us accordingly(eternal hellfire)for the sins of our earthly life. If so, my questions are:

(A) What? What sins? But Jesus had already wiped our sins away and God had forgiven us for the rest after prayer. What sins are we now going to be judged on ,and why? Would final judgement not be a redudancy considering that we had undergone two stages of forgiveness already? Does it not seem like a betrayal? why accept the sacrifice of jesus and why pray for forgiveness if at the end you are still going to be prosecuted for your sins?

(B) Does it mean that at the end , all that matters is your conduct while on earth?
Kindly shed some light on these conflicting teachings
Re: Of Jesus, God, Forgiveness And Final Judgement by plaetton: 10:28pm On Nov 15, 2011
Corrections:

When I was much younger, I had tried to make sense of the conflicting and sometimes confusing teachings of christianity. Although these teachings form the core of the christian belief system, I have not gained a satisfactory understanding on the messages. I invite all to share their views or their own understanding on these.

1. We have been made to believe from childhood that Jesus sacrificed his life on the cross to bear all our sins, and by that sacrifice we are saved. It is further emphasized that by accepting that sacrifice, we are free and our place in heaven is assured.

My questions are:
(A)Since Jesus died long before I was born, what sin of mine did he die for and what exactly did he save me from? (B). If my sins(the ones I have commited and the ones am yet to commit) have been cleansed by the blood of Jesus, then where lies my responsibility to live a sin-free life?

2.Again we have been made to believe from childhood that the merciful god forgives all our sins, especially when we pray and ask him.If so, then:

(A) What sins are there to forgive since the sacrifice of Jesus automatically wipes away our sins? (B) even if there are leftover or residual sins, and the merciful god forgives us everyday throughout our lives,where lies our responsibility to lve sin-free lives?

3.And lastly, we are also told that in the final day,God will judge our sins and punish us accordingly(eternal hellfire)for the sins of our earthly life.
If so, my questions are:

(A) What? What sins? But Jesus had already wiped our sins away and God had forgiven us for the rest after prayer. What sins are we now going to be judged on ,and why? Would final judgement not be a redudancy considering that we had undergone two stages of forgiveness already? Does it not seem like a betrayal? why accept the sacrifice of jesus and why pray for forgiveness if at the end you are still going to be prosecuted for your sins?

(B) Does it mean that at the end , all that matters is your conduct while on earth?
Kindly shed some light on these conflicting teachin
Re: Of Jesus, God, Forgiveness And Final Judgement by Jenwitemi(m): 10:58pm On Nov 15, 2011
Use the "modify" button on the top right corner of your post to edit, plaetton. No need to post twice.

Good questions, btw.  smiley
Re: Of Jesus, God, Forgiveness And Final Judgement by plaetton: 11:21pm On Nov 15, 2011
Thanks. smiley
Re: Of Jesus, God, Forgiveness And Final Judgement by nodogma: 12:03am On Nov 16, 2011
Interesting and valid questions. I am looking forward to the answers!!
Re: Of Jesus, God, Forgiveness And Final Judgement by DeepSight(m): 12:23am On Nov 16, 2011
The notion that anyone's sins are borne or excused by anyone else is a very dangerous notion which leads many to lose sight of the all important spiritual law of personal responsibility.
Re: Of Jesus, God, Forgiveness And Final Judgement by Image123(m): 12:33pm On Nov 16, 2011
Frosbel
Re: Of Jesus, God, Forgiveness And Final Judgement by ichuka(m): 3:25pm On Nov 16, 2011
@op
in the Bible there's a difference between Sin and sins.the first eight chapters of the book of Romans deals with the subject in veiw.from chapter one through 5:11,only the word sins is mentioned,bout from 5:12 until the end of chapter eight deals with Sin and not sins.
Sin is that power within us that propels us to commit sinful act,while sins is the sinful act committed outwardly by us.
The source of the problem is in our heredity,not in our behaviour.Roms5:19a says that everyone born in Adam is a sinner.we have been constituted sinners"by the disobedience of one(Roms5:19a).
Let me illustrate by a simple analogy.
My name is Chuka,i did not choose it,i am Chuka,because my father was a Chuka,and my father was a Chuka because my grandfather was a Chuka,if i become a Governor,a Pastor or Begger today am still a Chuka,nothing i do,or refrain from doing will make me other than a Chuka.why is that?its because i was born a Chuka.we are sinners,not because of ourselves but because of Adam.we  were in Adam when he sinned.by birth we are part of him.
If our greatgrand father had died at the age of three,we would have died in him.
We are all there when Adam yielded to the Serpent's words.we are involved in Adam's sin.by being born "in him"we recieve from him all that he became as a result of sin.we derive our existence from him,and because his life became a sinful life,a sinful nature,the very nature we derive from him is also sinful.
We dont become sinners by commiting sins,rather,we sin because we are sinners,
the source of the problem is from our orgin.
Will deal with the solution later and by His Grace your questions will be answered,
Re: Of Jesus, God, Forgiveness And Final Judgement by plaetton: 4:08pm On Nov 16, 2011
@i.chuka
Thanks for your input. But your viewpoint opens up more questions.
It is obvious that you take the adam and every narrative quite literally. Even so, what exactly was Adam's sin? and where does it say in the bible that he lived a sinful life?
By your logic,guilt is the corner stone of your faith?
Also, do you also carry the sins of your father , grandfather , and ancestors with you?
Re: Of Jesus, God, Forgiveness And Final Judgement by ichuka(m): 5:53pm On Nov 16, 2011
"so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous"Roms5:19b,
Our despair is in Adam,our hope is in Christ.
Roms6:3-5;says"Or are you ignorant that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus have been baptized into His death?we have been buried therefore with Him through baptism into His death,in order that just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the father,so also we might walk in newness of life.for if we have grown together with Him in the likeness of His death,indeed we will also be in likeness of His resurrection"
As we believe and accept  Jesus Christ as our Lord and saviour,automatically all He accomplished 2000yrs  ago becomes ours,.
When He died on the Cross we died in Him,when He Resurrected 3days later we Resurrected in him.
Question is how is that possible?
1Cor1:30;says"its because of Him(God)that we are in Christ Jesus,who has become for us wisdom from God,that is our Righteousness,Holiness and Redemption.God has put us in Christ.
The only way to get out of Adam is by death since we came in by birth,
i have to die a Chuka to be free from been a Chuka since i was born a Chuka,
Praise God!i am in Christ Jesus,because of Him(God).
When He died on the Cross i died a Chuka in Him when He Resurrected i Resurrect in Him.and by His Grace as i continue to grow with Him in the likeness of His death,i will also be in the likeness of His Resurrection here on earth
Re: Of Jesus, God, Forgiveness And Final Judgement by plaetton: 6:38pm On Nov 16, 2011
@i.chuka:
You did a lot of preaching. Nothing new or different from what we have been hearing all our lives. You did not answer any of the questions posed. You basically restated your beliefs and why you believe them. You made a better attempt on your previous post.
Re: Of Jesus, God, Forgiveness And Final Judgement by ichuka(m): 9:15pm On Nov 16, 2011
@op
To answer your questions one has to lay down some basic facts.
1a;Through the disobedience of one man(Adam)we were all made constituted sinners.by him sin entered and death through sin,and throughout the race sin has reigned unto death from that the day on.you cant say "i have not been in Eden"for potentially we all were there.
When Adam sinned we all sinned in him.
1b;"Even so reckon ye also yourselves to be dead unto sin.Roms6:11.by excising our faith in His finish work in our lifes,giving the Holy Spirit excess in every area of our lives.For He is the law of Spirit in our lives sets us free from the law of sin and death(Roms8:2)
2a;we are not fully adopted as sons and our bodies fully redeemed in His second coming(Roms8:23)
2b;For God to save us,it must be done in a condition that matches,or measures up to Himself.
God is a Righteous God,His Righteousness is His way of doing things,its true that God saves man because He loves man,but He must do so in a way thats in agreement with His Righteousness.if God forgives carelessly without judging our sin according to the law,where is His Righteousness?if He doesn't save us legally,He cant save us at all.He is not willing to give up His Righteousness,in order to save us in a Righteous way because of His Love for us we sinners and our sins were judged in His Son on the Cross.the Cross meets the requirements of Righteousness and Love(John3:16)
Re: Of Jesus, God, Forgiveness And Final Judgement by plaetton: 3:20am On Nov 17, 2011
??
ok. If you say so. I hope more is coming because that last sermon did not hit the spot.
smiley
Re: Of Jesus, God, Forgiveness And Final Judgement by kelz88(f): 3:31am On Nov 17, 2011
Subscribing!

Same thing I've been wondering for a while but didn't know how to phrase it.



(A bit off topic but going by the whole Adam thing, we are all related. Interesting).
Re: Of Jesus, God, Forgiveness And Final Judgement by Jenwitemi(m): 11:21am On Nov 17, 2011
grin Were you expecting questions that christians, under normal circumstances and out of "faith", sweep under their already bulging carpets to be answered by them? They do not have answers to these kind of questions because they make no sense to them as well, so they paper over them by taking refuge under the excuse of having "unshakeable faith".
plaetton:

??
ok. If you say so. I hope more is coming because that last sermon did not hit the spot.
smiley
Re: Of Jesus, God, Forgiveness And Final Judgement by ichuka(m): 11:22am On Nov 17, 2011
@op
For one to answer your questions truthfully,the full Gospel of God had to be preached.lets go back to Roms5:19;which says"For just as through the DISOBEDIENCE of the one man(Adam) many were made Sinners,so also the OBEDIENCE of one man(Christ) many will be made Righteous.so the origin of the problem is Disobedience.which brought in sin and death.
Before the Creation God already knew that the Created beings(Angels/Man)will DisObey His Authority.according to His foreknowledge(Ish46:10).In the GodHead there's only Authority,And Authority can not be established in the universe out Obedience.because it can't exist alone.He(God) must therefore find Obedience in the universe.by His Grace i believe thats the reason for the distinctive operations of the name God the Father and God the Son within the GodHead.that is Authority  by the Father will be answered by Obedience in the Son,its said that "if we want something done perfectly well we have to do it ourselves"God never knew how to Obey,He actually "learned Obedience through what He suffered"(Hebrew5:cool.He never brought Obedience to Earth He learnt it through suffering.
Philippns2:5-7 and :8-11;says our Lord Jesus Christ humbled Himself twice:He first emptied Himself in His Divinity,and then humbled Himself in His humanity.as the Son He willingly submits to the Father's Authority and declares that"the Father is greater than I"(Jhn14:28).the Father became the emblem of Authority,while Christ assumes the symbol of Obedience.when He shouted "it is finished"on the Cross(Jhn19:30).it proclaimed not only the accomplishment of Salvation but also the fulfillment of all that His name(the Son) signifies.the Creation He began in the begining was actually completed on the Cross of Calvary.
Re: Of Jesus, God, Forgiveness And Final Judgement by Jenwitemi(m): 11:33am On Nov 17, 2011
Makes sense, chuka. The op is bound to be enlightened now by that contribution. Why don't u just say the truth and admit that u can't answer the questions?
i.chuka:

@op
For one to answer your questions truthfully,the full Gospel of God had to be preached.lets go back to Roms5:19;which says"For just as through the DISOBEDIENCE of the one man(Adam) many were made Sinners,so also the OBEDIENCE of one man(Christ) many will be made Righteous.so the origin of the problem is Disobedience.which brought in sin and death.
Before the Creation God already knew that the Created beings(Angels/Man)will DisObey His Authority.according to His foreknowledge(Ish46:10).In the GodHead there's only Authority,And Authority can not be established in the universe out Obedience.because it can't exist alone.He(God) must therefore find Obedience in the universe.by His Grace i believe thats the reason for the distinctive operations of the name God the Father and God the Son within the GodHead.that is Authority  by the Father will be answered by Obedience in the Son,its said that "if we want something done perfectly well we have to do it ourselves"God never knew how to Obey,He actually "learned Obedience through what He suffered"(Hebrew5:cool.He never brought Obedience to Earth He learnt it through suffering.
Philippns2:5-7 and :8-11;says our Lord Jesus Christ humbled Himself twice:He first emptied Himself in His Divinity,and then humbled Himself in His humanity.as the Son He willingly submits to the Father's Authority and declares that"the Father is greater than I"(Jhn14:28).the Father became the emblem of Authority,while Christ assumes the symbol of Obedience.when He shouted "it is finished"on the Cross(Jhn19:30).it proclaimed not only the accomplishment of Salvation but also the fulfillment of all that His name(the Son) signifies.the Creation He began in the begining was actually completed on the Cross of Calvary.
Re: Of Jesus, God, Forgiveness And Final Judgement by ichuka(m): 1:06pm On Nov 17, 2011
@jenwitemi
Jesus said;"The word which i have spoken to you are spirit"(Jhn6:63).the words of the Bible are not only letters but spirit.
Jhn4:24,says "God is Spirit,and those who worship Him must worship in spirit.we can only worship or discern His Purpose and Will with our spirit.we cant know His Will and Purpose with our mind,emotion,or will.we can only touch spiritual things with the spirit.the very nature of the bible is spirit.for this reason,everyone who reads this book must approach it with his spirit.it MUST be read with the spirit.
The spirit is the organ of spiritual knowledge,how does God know things,and by what means does God come to His conclusion,or decision?His knowledge and conclusion are intuitive.Intuition is the faculty of spiritual intelligence by which all spiritual beings works.Angels serve the Will of God  by intuitive discernment of that Will.not by argued and reasoned conviction.
Reasoning inductively,deductively,philosophically,logically and comparatively of the things of God with the mind of the flesh will only bring forth death.
The only knowledge of God through the Bible which is of spiritual value is that which we have by Revelation of the Holy Spirit within our spirits.
God had never explain Himself to man's reason,and we cant know Him by reason.Christainity is a Revelation or its Nothing,
please try and study the Bible with your spirit,its the only way you can discern the purpose of God.not by reason or arguments.
Re: Of Jesus, God, Forgiveness And Final Judgement by plaetton: 3:12pm On Nov 17, 2011
OMG.
@Ichuka:
I'm sure you make a good preacher, and I'm quite sure they dont ask questons in church. However, we are not in a church, so pls save your sermons for us when we come to your church. I am tempted to engage you on some of the things you have preached , but its pointless because you are the product of your faith. No probs with that.
This is perhaps the dilemma with faith and religion. They answer simple questions with a lot of windy,convoluted nothings.
If you dont have simple answers, be humble enough to admit so.
Re: Of Jesus, God, Forgiveness And Final Judgement by JeSoul(f): 3:45pm On Nov 17, 2011
plaetton:

Corrections:

When I was much younger, I had tried to make sense of the conflicting and sometimes confusing teachings of christianity. Although these teachings form the core of the christian belief system, I have not gained a satisfactory understanding on the messages. I invite all to share their views or their own understanding on these.

1. We have been made to believe from childhood that Jesus sacrificed his life on the cross to bear all our sins, and by that sacrifice we are saved. It is further emphasized that by accepting that sacrifice, we are free and our place in heaven is assured.

My questions are:
(A)Since Jesus died long before I was born, what sin of mine did he die for and what exactly did he save me from? (B). If my sins(the ones I have commited and the ones am yet to commit) have been cleansed by the blood of Jesus, then where lies my responsibility to live a sin-free life?

2.Again we have been made to believe from childhood that the merciful god forgives all our sins, especially when we pray and ask him.If so, then:

(A) What sins are there to forgive since the sacrifice of Jesus automatically wipes away our sins? (B) even if there are leftover or residual sins, and the merciful god forgives us everyday throughout our lives,where lies our responsibility to lve sin-free lives?

3.And lastly, we are also told that in the final day,God will judge our sins and punish us accordingly(eternal hellfire)for the sins of our earthly life.
If so, my questions are:

(A) What? What sins? But Jesus had already wiped our sins away and God had forgiven us for the rest after prayer. What sins are we now going to be judged on ,and why? Would final judgement not be a redudancy considering that we had undergone two stages of forgiveness already? Does it not seem like a betrayal? why accept the sacrifice of jesus and why pray for forgiveness if at the end you are still going to be prosecuted for your sins?

(B) Does it mean that at the end , all that matters is your conduct while on earth?
Kindly shed some light on these conflicting teachin
Plaetton, I have identified the problem . . . it seems everything that you "know" you were either "told" or "made to believe". I'm just curious how much of what you believe you "know" has actually been derived from personal study of the faith & the bible. I ask because much of what you have stated that you "know" about the christian position can be likened to a wineskin filled with holes - it will never make sense because it continues to leak critical bits of information. And you can plug these holes very easily by simply reading the bible for yourself.

Its one thing to understand the christian position and then choose not the believe in it - it is quite another to mischaracterize it and then lament it makes no sense. Cheers bro.
Re: Of Jesus, God, Forgiveness And Final Judgement by Judek2(m): 4:45pm On Nov 17, 2011
The answer goes like this.
Its like a king who have a son and many subjects.He makes a law that should be strictly obeyed by all his subjects.Their is a heavy fine for disobedience of this crime,and all the subjects put together cannot pay it.
Because they are not perfect,they disobeyed this law,he know that they cannot pay the fine,so they have to face the punishment for it.
Now,the son of the King knew that he can pay the price because he is rich.He then descided to take the punishment and pay the fine.Now,they have to be careful not to disobey again because they have been saved once.

During the olden times in the old testaments,a sinner takes responsibility for his sins on earth.Sinful nations were destroyed by God eg.Sodom and Gomorrah.No one who sinned goes free.
The laws which he passed is to be strictly adhered by the people.The attonement of sins was met with sacrifises,suffering of oneself and burnt offerings.
The temple of God(holy of holies) was restricted to common citizens.Only the high priests and Prophets could enter.They have to cleanse themeselves and be holy before they can enter because anything unclean would be struck to death by God.
These wase ho the world lived Before Christ. (B.C)

God does not find satisfaction in destroying things that he created,he does not find delight in the death of a sinner,but that a sinner repents.

(Rom 6:23)-For the wages of sin is DEATH,but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
That was why Jesus came and took the punishment for our sins through his death on the cross.
When Jesus died,the seals of the temple tore.Now,everybody including sinners is free to enter to the Lord.
We no longer require sacrifises for the attonement of our sins for we are now closer to our God.We are no longer slaves but Children.
The death of Christ took away our sins because we are no longer held punnished of them here on earth,for we all would have been destroyed.

Him who has ears let him hear:
Praying does not cleanse from sin because even sinners pray and all men are sinners.
Joining a church does not cleanse from sin because hypocrites go to Church.
Baptism does not cleanse from sin because a sinner cannot cleanse a sinner.
Our works and our good deeds cannot wash away sins because surely,we are all hypocrites in heart.


Hear me you who has ears,Only the blood of Jesus,the blood shed on the cross of Calvary cleanses sin.To sin is human,and to forgive is divine.
Because of his sacrifice,the world is saved.
Therefore,keep away from that which is evil,abstain from sin,do what is right in his sight and he shall reward you.
Inperfect generation,do not be arrogant and say that because Christ has died for our sins,now let the lusts of flesh and inpurities of sin take hold of us,it is the thoughts of one who is ruled by false spirits of beelzebub,he has soured the mans heart and inplanted rebelous spirits.therefore thinking in his heart what is wrong.He no longer knows the truth.
Woe unto you who shall decieve my people,that one of mine shall perish,for you are better not born than born,and woe to you who has been decieved,for what made the spirit of truth depart from you.

We shall all acount for our sins on the last day.For weeds and corns shall grow together untill the day of harvest.Weeds shall be gathered and be burnt and be ruined.
Shall we continue in sin that grace should abide bountifully for us?, The death of Christ is enough grace for those who believe.
Re: Of Jesus, God, Forgiveness And Final Judgement by ichuka(m): 5:07pm On Nov 17, 2011
@op
am sorry,but all the answers you will ever need about the Christain faith are embedded in the word of God(in the Bible).
Since His Word is Spirit,(Jhn6:63).one have to be a regenerated person"regenerated spirit"to read and understand the word in the Bible.this spirit is needed to read and understand the Bible.without this spirit,a man cannot know God,either can he understand the word of God in the Bible.
No matter how clever and well educated a man is,as long as he's not Regenerated,the Bible will be a mystery to him.
The very root and nature of the Bible is spiritual.
For instance,our Lord Jesus said in John6:55,"my flesh is true food,and my blood is true drink"an unregenerated person will be shocked at such a word.while every true Christains knows that this refers to the Son of God,and they derive there lifes from His flesh and blood.
Also in John11:25,our Lord said,"I am the Resurrection and the life" He didn't say I have the power to Resurrect Lazarus,rather,He is the Resurrection and life.an unregenerated person cant discern what He meant,
Job said,"can you find out the depths of God?"(Job11:7).He(God) cant be found by research.
Re: Of Jesus, God, Forgiveness And Final Judgement by ichuka(m): 6:33pm On Nov 17, 2011
@op
am not a preacher in any Church,am just a Christain that reads and study my Bible.
@Judek2
your post is good,but some impressions have to be straighten out.
There's a big difference between Sin and sins,like  i said earlier in my first post,Sin is the force within that propels us to commit sinful act,while sins is the sinful act we commit outwardly.
Sin is a principle in us;its a principle of life we have,sins are acts committed by us;acts in our living.Sin is related to our being;sins are transgressions that we commit,they are activities and real acts.
The Bible shows us that for our sins we need forgiveness(Matt26:28;acts2:38,10:43).but we need to be free from Sin.(Roms6:18,22).the Bible never said "forgiveness of  Sin"but "forgiveness of sins"neither does the Bible speak about being "free from sins"instead we are"free from Sin".the Blood of Jesus deals with our sins(brought about forgiveness) and His Cross free us from Sin(deliverance).
Re: Of Jesus, God, Forgiveness And Final Judgement by plaetton: 6:46pm On Nov 17, 2011
@jesoul:
Yes, Much of what we know are what we are told, that is why I have studied the bible from a religious perspective ,and lately ,from a historical and academic perspective, in the same way we study and critique shakespeare. In shakespeare we probe the events, the settings, the themes,the characters, their backgrounds, their passions and their motives in order to understand the events and even the hidden messages  being transmitted via the drama.

Shakespeare did much to elevate the English language and English culture.Just imagine if the English people treated the works of shakespeare as a devinely inspired religious book. After all, it does have all the trappings of a religious book. It has kings, courts, dreams, revelations, spirits, magic, murder, betrayal etc, as well as moral lessons.  

Reading the bible from a historical perspective seems to fill in a lot of the gaps and inconsistencies because it allows me to cross-reference other historical sources from Egypt, babylon and the lands of Canaan to put greater clarity on the historical dramas that began with abraham in the city of  U.R, then capital of Summer, down to the events of the sinai peninnsula , to canaan and its conflicts, and then finally to the shisms in palestine at the beginning of the common era. In each case, the motives and objectives of the biblical chroniclers are clearly discernable.

I have also not seen anyone , including those who preach it, that understands the bible from a purely religious perspective. What i do see in abundance, as in this very thread, is the abundance of the same recourse to more faith and more Zeal. Its the same all the time.
" you require faith or more faith to grasp the true import of the biblical (a book of faith)teachings ".

I do not agree with that. Faith, by its very nature , is an antithesis to knowledge and understanding. Faith is a requirement to accept and not a requirement to know or understand.

@I.chuka:
If everything is in the bible, you should have answered my simple questions by now. If you cannot find the answers there,how should anyone else? In other words, I need to drink that potion (of faith) so that I can experience the same delusions?
Now I get it! You are definitely right about.

@judek2:
Thanks for your attempt, but everything you said  contradicts itself.

1. sinful nations were not destoyed by god, ottherwise, the isrealites would have been wiped out because they sinned many  many times against their god, also, no nation would have existed by now.
2.no one who sinned goes free? Not so.  jacob sinned against his brother, joseph's brothers(that made up the tribes of isreal) sinned against joseph. david sinned, solomon sinned and so did many other biblical heroes.

3.Jesus, as well as 50,000 jews were crucified during the roman occupation of palestine for rebellion and insurgency. How did jesus death in the hands of the romans become a human sacrifice?.(thats a discussion for another thread).

4.If praying, going to worship, baptism and good works does not cleanse sin as you are saying, then everything we have been taught are lies. not so? if good deeds are irrelavant, then why should I not do bad deeds? If jesus cleansed away our sins, and good deeds are not important, then what are we accounting for in the last day?
Do you see your many contradictions in the same post? Thats exactly why I posted these questions.
So the questions remain unanswered.
Re: Of Jesus, God, Forgiveness And Final Judgement by JeSoul(f): 8:01pm On Nov 17, 2011
plaetton:

@jesoul:
Yes, Much of what we know are what we are told, that is why I have studied the bible from a religious perspective ,and lately ,from a historical and academic perspective, in the same way we study and critique shakespeare. In shakespeare we probe the events, the settings, the themes,the characters, their backgrounds, their passions and their motives in order to understand the events and even the hidden messages  being transmitted via the drama.
I'm glad you've done your own personal study . . . but as I previously remarked, you're still missing some critical chunks information . . . asking the very first question: "(A)Since Jesus died long before I was born, what sin of mine did he die for and what exactly did he save me from? (B). If my sins(the ones I have commited and the ones am yet to commit) have been cleansed by the blood of Jesus, then where lies my responsibility to live a sin-free life?"
. . . is proof-positive that you're not in total possession of the full gospel of Christ as narrated in the bible.

Shakespeare did much to elevate the English language and English culture.Just imagine if the English people treated the works of shakespeare as a devinely inspired religious book. After all, it does have all the trappings of a religious book. It has kings, courts, dreams, revelations, spirits, magic, murder, betrayal etc, as well as moral lessons.
If anyone anywhere decides to treat Shakespeare as a religious text, it is certainly their perogative to do so - as long as they're not infringing on anyone else's rights. It doesn't bother me - the same way anyone else's choice of religion should not bother us. 

Reading the bible from a historical perspective seems to fill in a lot of the gaps and inconsistencies because it allows me to cross-reference other historical sources from Egypt, babylon and the lands of Canaan to put greater clarity on the historical dramas that began with abraham in the city of  U.R, then capital of Summer, down to the events of the sinai peninnsula , to canaan and its conflicts, and then finally to the shisms in palestine at the beginning of the common era. In each case, the motives and objectives of the biblical chroniclers are clearly discernable.
I'm glad you find some historical/academic use from the scriptures, to me that's a bonus . . . because like you said, it is primarily a religious text - not a scientific or academic one.

I have also not seen anyone , including those who preach it, that understands the bible from a purely religious perspective. What i do see in abundance, as in this very thread, is the abundance of the same recourse to more faith and more Zeal. Its the same all the time.
" you require faith or more faith to grasp the true import of the biblical (a book of faith)teachings ".
Forgive me, I don't quite understand what you mean here.

I do not agree with that. Faith, by its very nature , is an antithesis to knowledge and understanding. Faith is a requirement to accept and not a requirement to know or understand.
A most unfortunate assertion, and one usually borne from an errorneous understanding of what faith is and used as a prop to reinforce a strong dislike for religion - when nothing could be further from the truth.

    Let me put it like this: faith & reason are like my mother & father - they are opposite sides of the same truth. They both have varying levels of wisdom depending on the subject matter - and as their child, I apply varying levels I have gleaned from their wisdom depending on the situation. I will not ask my dad about the best spices to use for my egusi soup - and I will not ask my mum about the proper fan belt to install in my car. They are both authorities on different subjects.

Faith & reason are not seperate opposites - they are inseperable composites. Two different yet equal sides of the very same coin - the search for truth, wisdom & understanding. The imaginary conflict that exists between the two exists only in the minds of those outside of their family. As a christian, asking me to choose between faith & reason is like asking me to choose between my mother & father - I can't because its impossible.


  So what am I saying? anyone including christians who tells you to abandon reason in favor of only faith - and you advocating the opposite (abandoning faith in favor of only reason) are both holding leaky wineskins - you will never quite have a complete grasp of knowledge - spiritual or otherwise. Cheers.
Re: Of Jesus, God, Forgiveness And Final Judgement by kelz88(f): 10:56pm On Nov 17, 2011
Some people are basically implying "accept whatever your are taught, or what you read in the bible with faith. Pretend it's all accurate and everything will be fine". "Do not question God".

To me, those impressions and statements do not help. If anything it justifies the fact the bible is very questionable.
Re: Of Jesus, God, Forgiveness And Final Judgement by ichuka(m): 11:10pm On Nov 17, 2011
@op
sorry to say this;Christainity is not a Religion,but,Christ Himself.
@jesoul
Reasoning primary had no place in the things of God.
The Apostle Paul makes it very clear that the secret of everything in his life and service was the fact that he recieved his Gospel"by Revelation".we may even know the Bible most perfectly as a book,and yet be spiritually dead and ineffective.when the Scriptures say so much about the knowledge of God and of the truth as the basis of Eternal Life,resulting in being set free,doing exploits,etc.it also affirm that man cannot by searching find out God(Job11:7).
A rich knowledge of the Scriptures,an accurate technical grasp of Christain doctrine,the,doing of Christain work by all the resources of men's  natural wisdom or ability,a clever manipulation and interesting presentation of the Bible content and themes,won't get one WHIT beyond the natural life of men,and still remain within the realm of spiritual death.we cant be argued,REASONED,fascinated,willed,entrused,impassioned,into the Kingdom of Heavens,we can only be born,and thats by spiritual quickening.(Jhn3:3,5).this new birth brings with it new Capacities of every kind,the most vital is a new and different faculty of Divine Knowledge,understanding and apprehension,though our brain is not ruled out,but its secondary,not primary.the function of our natural intellect is to give spiritual things intelligent form for ourselves and for others.
God says,"For My thoughts are not your thoughts,neither are your ways My ways"(Ish55:cool.the measure of the difference is as the height of the Heavens from the Earth,of the Heavenly from the Earthly.
One of the chief lessons that we have to learn,is that spiritual ends demands spiritual means.
Cheers!
Re: Of Jesus, God, Forgiveness And Final Judgement by plaetton: 11:19pm On Nov 17, 2011
@jesoul:
Insightful and articulate. But I disagree on most of your assertions.

Infact, I.chuka ha just contradicted you that "reason primarily has no place in the things of god".
What I meant in my previous post is that everyone says the same thing: I need faith or more faith to understand biblical scripture. In other words, I need to first drink the potion of faith and then see things in a diferent way.
I have dislike for religion because I think its irrational. Perhaps i do not know the definition of faith. Or are there different meanings for each person?
Faith, to me, means" I dont know and may not want to know or understand, but I accept". Faith lies on the fringes of rational thinking. It is faith that makes people give money to others without asking: a. when did god appoint you to collect money on his behalf? b. are you sending the money to god or what are you doing with the money on behalf of god? ,and c. why are  you living large on god's money?.
Faith is about accepting things that seem irrational. How do you equate faith with reason? both cannot co-exist, That is why religion, over the past 200yrs so, has taken a back seat to reason. Anyone that says that they have both faith and reason is in a temporary transition mode.
We have, on previous posts, discussed the dilemma of unanswered prayers. Prayer is an act of faith, but reason tells us the immutable laws of cause and effect are the only determinants of events.
I agree that faith can inspire and provide strength and comfort, but in a limited and narrow way.
IIt is not the faith itself that inspires, but just the avenue through an individual may find  inner strenght.
I will not attempt to list the dangers of faith because they are too many.
Re: Of Jesus, God, Forgiveness And Final Judgement by plaetton: 11:29pm On Nov 17, 2011
@I.chuka:
More sermons. perhaps you are speaking in spiritual tongues, that sis why i cannot grasp whatever you are trying to say. But If i need to understand all that sermon before I can see the answers to my simple questions, then I'm in deep trouble because i will never get the answers.
By what means do u discern spiritual things? You denounce reason and intellect but you are trying to construct an intellectual argument for your beliefs.

But still, what about my questions?
Re: Of Jesus, God, Forgiveness And Final Judgement by Image123(m): 12:44am On Nov 18, 2011
where's that frosbel of a boy when you need him. If this was about tights and prospets? Let me make some few additions to add to chuka and JeSouli's.

When I was  much younger, I had tried to make sense of the conflicting and sometimes confusing teachings of christianity.  Although these teachings form the core of the christian belief system, I have not gained a satisfactory understanding on the message[/b]s. I invite all to share their views or their own understanding on these.

1. We have been made to believe from childhood that Jesus sacrificed his life on the cross to bear all our sins, and by that sacrifice we are saved. It is further emphasized that by accepting that sacrifice, we are free and our place in heaven is assured.
(A)Since Jesus died long before I was born, [b]what sin of mine did he die for
and what exactly did he save me from?

1John 1:7  But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.
He (Jesus Christ) died for ALL your sin. ALL as in ALL.
Romans 5:9  Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.

John 5:24  Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.
John 3:16  For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Though you may not understand this, like you may not understand the making of garri, or an hepatectomy, Jesus Christ saves from the fiery judgement coming on all the world, which we all are to escape from.

(B). If my sins(the ones I have commited and the ones am yet to commit) have been cleansed by the blood of Jesus, then where lies my responsibility to live a sin-free life?

1John 1:9  If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
 Forgiveness is not automatic. i.e not everybody's sins have been forgiven. Everybody's sins/punishment have been paid for, but each has to acknowledge it. It's like money paid into your account, you've got to cash it to spend it. It's no use smiling at the bank alert and dying of hunger and not paying bills. IF we confess, He forgives. Each has his own will and decision to make. Now you begin to live a sin free life because REPENTANCE is connected to forgiveness. To forgive is divine, to repent is human(signed by Image123 hahahaha). Forgiveness does not come cheap, it comes with the price of THE PRECIOUS BLOOD OF JESUS CHRIST. (1Peter 1:18  Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers; 1Peter 1:19  But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot: )
Acts 3:19  Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord;
Acts 2v28 (Good NewsB)  Peter said to them, "Each one of you must turn away from your sins and be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ, so that your sins will be forgiven; and you will receive God's gift, the Holy Spirit.
To flog it more (vote for corporal punishment), if i put 2million bucks in your account, you still have things to do to enjoy it. You don't say "it's my money" and you write on your dairy to withdraw, or you do not sign, or you do not state how much you want to withdraw. It's in your account alright, but you play your little part to get the cash and settle your sorry debts.

2.Again we have been made to believe from childhood that the merciful god forgives all our sins, especially when we pray and ask him.If so, then:

(A) What sins are there to forgive since the sacrifice of Jesus automatically wipes away our sins?
ANSWERED ABOVE, re-read if you please.

(B) even if there are leftover God will judge our sins and punish us accordingly(eternal hellfire)for the sins of our earthly life. If so, my questions are:

(A) What? What sins?

The sins that 'are leftover' obviously.

But Jesus had already wiped our sins away and God had forgiven us for the rest after prayer. What sins are we now going to be judged on ,and why?

Already explained above. Jesus' sacrifice is the propitiation for our sins. It is His sacrifice that appeases and frees us from judgement, BUT we need to ACCEPT that sacrifice i.e BELIEVE in that sacrifice.
1John 2:2  And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.
If we do not accept His payment, then we'll have to pay by ourselves. We'll pay for our sins ourselves, if we do not accept Christ Jesus' payment, and the payment/wages for sin is death(you can find that one in your Bible, right?)

Would final judgement not be a redudancy considering that we had undergone two stages of forgiveness already? Does it not seem like a betrayal? why accept the sacrifice of jesus and why pray for forgiveness if at the end you are still going to be prosecuted for your sins?
Your question is the redundancy here, ithink. It must be what those people call 'tautology'. Re-read the above(s).

(B) Does it mean that at the end , all that matters is your conduct while on earth?
This is the 2nd question 2B, ithinks? Conflicting questions for 'conflicting' teachings, thumbs up. Our conducts on earth matter, Christ's payment also matters. It's got to be a partnership, a fellowship. We can't do it on our own, and God does not do it on His own, solo.

Ecclesiastes 12:13  Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man.
In sub-summary, to fear God is to depart from/repent of evil. To keep God's commandment is to believe on Him, and on Jesus who He has sent. To love God, and to love your neighbour as yourself.
Re: Of Jesus, God, Forgiveness And Final Judgement by Judek2(m): 3:38am On Nov 18, 2011
@Plaetton.
(1)Every nation in the old were punnished of their sins,even to point of destruction unless they repent.
Sodom and Gomorrah was destroyed with flood because they did not repent of Noahs warnings.
What about during the time of Lot,when the earth was destroyed with fire and brimstone.
Jericho and how God gave them to the hands of the Isrealites.

Now,there is something you should understand."Forgiveness and Cleansing."
The great City of Niniveh was forgiven by God because they repented of Jonah's warnings.
The Isrealites were periodically enslaved by Pagan nations unless they repented,and he forgives them.
Sodom and Gomorrah were destroyed because they did not repent.
God met sins with terror,please don't argue blindly about that.

(2)So what you read about Jacob,he went free? I don't need to start narrating the stories here (isiah 27:9),(Hosea 12:2).Go back and read your bible about Isau and Jacob,extend it to Joseph and tell me how he wasn't punnished.
Read about Joseph's brothers (Gen.50:15).
Solomon (1 kings 11:26,13:32), (1 kings 11:1-13)
Davids own was even worse. A simple Google search can show you how they were punnished and they atoned for their sins and was forgiven.
Even Adam and Eve were not spared.

(3) Jesus crusifixion was prophesied years before he came to earth.He came for a purpose,"to pay the price for our cleansing".You can notice that he was untouchable during his ministries because they wanted to kill him ealier,but they couldnt.
But when it was time,he allowed them so that what is written would be fulfiled.

(4)Now,here is where my point lies. "Forgiveness and Cleansing"
you should know the difference between the two words.
Those facts that i stated may not even guarantee forgiveness talk more of cleansing.I only wrote them to state the nature of Cleansing.
Atonement of sins and prayers can guarantee Forgiveness but not Cleansing because it can't be meant by our works.

forgiveness existed in the olden times without Cleansing. This was why they faces their consequences,wars and deaths even from God himself.

But after Jesus had died,he has Cleansed us with his blood.
The blood of Animals cannot cleanse sins,the blood of human beings cannot cleanse sins,because they are not *Perfect*,that was why its done from time to time in the old for the atonement of sins and forgiveness.

But now,the *Perfect* sacrifice had been made by Jesus Christ,That is the perfection of Cleansing.

Today, Forgiveness exists with Cleansing. Meaning that the perfect price had been paid for our Cleansing,and we are cleansed

We are no longer treathened by God to destroy our Nations,as of the Olden times even when the world today sins more than the Old world.
Individually,God never treathens us with death or punnishments when we enguage in all kinds of sins,even more than the Olden People.

People and Nations are now free from Gods wrath and anger untill the last day of Judgement.

Now,that is how Jesus Cleansed our sins and saved the world.
Today's world is called (A.C) After Christ,while Olden world was (B.C) Before Christ.
Re: Of Jesus, God, Forgiveness And Final Judgement by tpia5: 6:33am On Nov 18, 2011
this seems like one of those merry go round threads.

poster, if you dont believe in the notion of karma ie seedtime and harvest, or in a future judgement, then there's no need to ask pointless questions imo.

do you understand the fact that matter can not be created or destroyed, but can only change form?

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