OLAADEGBU:

@debosky and all those who think that they are "Christians", listen and read what hard core evolutionists think about their theories.

William Provine's quote sums up all the modern evolutionary biology.  "Let me summarize my views on what modern evolutionary biology tells us loud and clear . . .  There are no gods, no purpose, no goal-directed forces of any kind." 
William Provine(Professor, Cornell University), Origins Research, Vol.16:1/2(1994),p.9, quoted in Technical Journal, vol.10:1(1996),p.22.

This shows that the foundation of the religion of evolutionary theory is based on materialism, and thereby it is the ideology that there is no creator God.  This is so because they want to counter Christian beliefs and to escape from accountability to a creator God, they reckon that if there is no law there will be no law giver that they will be accountable to, so they thereby go on to form their own theories that have no scientific backing and this explains why their theories have remained just a theory, conjecture or hypothesis and have not been able to progress into a scientific law because it is unworkable, irrational, unreasonable, illogical and unscientific.

God has all the answers because He was there to observe has given us the answers not only in creation but in His written Holy Word, The Bible.  The answers as to who created, what was created, how it was created, when it was created and how long it took for Him to create.  It is either you choose to believe Him or to believe man's fallible theories that changes by the day.

[list]
[li]1.  Who created?------------God[/li]
[/list]
[list]
[li]2.  What was created?  ----All things[/li]
[/list]
[list]
[li]3.  How was it created?--- By His Power[/li]
[/list]
[list]
[li]4.  When was it created?—In the beginning[/li]
[/list]
[list]
[li]5.  How long did it take to
     Create?------------------- 6 days[/li]
[/list]

Some top and highly qualified Hebrew scolars, who are called lexigraphers wrote in the most widely recognised Hebrew lexicons and dictionaries, published in the 20th century says that the creation days written in the book of Genesis are literal days.

Below is a partial list of scientists who believe in the Bible's account of creation as is recorded in the Bible and through their professional fields have come to the scientific conclusion that confirms the Bible's account:

[list]
[li]Danny Faulkner         Ph.D.  Astronomy
John Byl                     Ph.D.  Astronomy
Tom Greene               Ph.D.  Astronomy
James Dire                 Ph.D.  Astrophysics
Dave Harrison            Ph.D. Astrophysics
Steven Boyd               Ph.D. Hebraic and Cognitive Studies
Floyd Nolen Jones     Th.D., Ph.D.  Author of Chronology of the Old Testament
Herb Hirt                    Ph.D.  Biblical Exposition
Robert Cole                Ph.D.  Semitic languages
Brown-Driver-Briggs Lexicon
Georgia Purdon          Ph.D. Molecular Genetics
Duane Gish                Ph.D. Biochemistry
David Menton            Ph.D. Cell Biology
Donald Chittick          Ph.D.  Physical Chemistry
Tom Greene              Ph.D.  Astronomy
Jason Lisle                Ph.D.  Astrophysics
Russell Humphreys   Ph.D  Physics
Don DeYoung            Ph.D.  Physics
Terry Mortenson       Ph.D. History of Geology
John baumgardner   Ph.D. Geophysics
Bob Compton            Ph.D. Physiology, DVM
Andy McIntosh         Ph.D.  Combustion Theory
John Johnson           Ph.D. Mathematics
Tommy Mitchel          M.D.
Andrew Snelling       Ph.D. Geology
Emil Silvestre           Ph.D. Geology
Esther Su                 Ph.D. Biochemistry
David DeWitt           Ph.D. Neuroscience[/li]
[/list]

And above all is the One who knows it all with absolute certainty and has recorded it with His own caligraphy:

God Almighty in the  The Ten Commandments

"For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it."  Exodus 20:11

“For by Him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones or dominions or principalities or powers:  all things were created by Him, and for him.”  Colossians 1:16

Which is the strong foundation that makes the faith of those who choose to believe in Him, based on rock solid evidence.

At your own time read the following passages if you believe in the God of Abraham, Isaac or Jacob.

(Exodus 20:11;God created all things by Jesus Christ. Gen.1:1; Colossians1:15-18,20; John 1:3; Ephesians 3:9; Heb.1:1-2; 11:3)

Totally base, who are you to decide who is a Christian or who isnt? Let God be the Judge!. That there are some practising Christians on this board who hold divergent views to your discourse does not necessarily mean that that they are wrong. Let God be the Judge. You have your views, they also have their own views. In the long run, I'd like to think that even those who disagree with you, all believe in the Salvation of God through Jesus Christ.

Darwin's Day

"But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction." (2 Peter 2:1)

Thousands of clergy have signed "An Open Letter Concerning Religion and Science."  On the Sunday closest to Charles Darwin's birthday, these "pastors" eulogize him and endorse evolutionary science as compatible with the Bible. Here are five reasons why this idea is grossly wrong.

• The Bible has absolutely no hint of ages of evolutionary development.  Forcing the "days" of Genesis 1 to mean "ages" can be done, but there is no support for that idea in the rest of Scripture (Psalm 33:6-9, 148:5-6; John 1:1-3; Colossians 1:16; Hebrews 1:3; Revelation 4:11; etc.).

• Evolution is not observed at all today.  Empirical science is based on observation and verification.  Nothing (from bacteria to people) is "evolving" into a "higher order."  Period.

• Fossil data does not show any transitional forms.  If evolution occurred prior to recorded history, it can only be documented by the fossils embedded in the water-deposited rocks of earth.  Those "missing links" are still missing.

• God's character absolutely forbids evolutionary methods.  God's holiness demands truth, and His omniscience demands perfection.  He cannot know what is best and then "create" something inferior.  He wrote that He took six days to create the universe (Exodus 20:11).  And He cannot lie!

• God's stated purpose for creating excludes evolution.  The creation reveals the Creator (Romans 1:20, Psalm 19:1-4), gives authority to the message of Jesus Christ (John 1:1-14, Colossians 1:16-18), and is the foundation for the gospel and for worship (Revelation 14:6-7).  Creating is what God does at the moment of the new birth (Ephesians 2:8-10).  HMM III

Watch a former Evolution scientist sharing his testimony on how the Lord opened his eyes to the glorious gospel of Jesus Christ showing now on a live broadcast on Genesis TV channel Sky 585, 592 or online if you can:

http://www.revelationtv.com/watchgen.php

http://www.revelationtv.com/watchrev.php

OLAADEGBU:

@debosky and all those who think that they are "Christians", listen and read what hard core evolutionists think about their theories.

William Provine's quote sums up all the modern evolutionary biology. "Let me summarize my views on what modern evolutionary biology tells us loud and clear . . . There are no gods, no purpose, no goal-directed forces of any kind."
William Provine(Professor, Cornell University), Origins Research, Vol.16:1/2(1994),p.9, quoted in Technical Journal, vol.10:1(1996),p.22.

This shows that the foundation of the religion of evolutionary theory is based on materialism, and thereby it is the ideology that there is no creator God. This is so because they want to counter Christian beliefs and to escape from accountability to a creator God, they reckon that if there is no law there will be no law giver that they will be accountable to, so they thereby go on to form their own theories that have no scientific backing and this explains why their theories have remained just a theory, conjecture or hypothesis and have not been able to progress into a scientific law because it is unworkable, irrational, unreasonable, illogical and unscientific.

God has all the answers because He was there to observe has given us the answers not only in creation but in His written Holy Word, The Bible. The answers as to who created, what was created, how it was created, when it was created and how long it took for Him to create. It is either you choose to believe Him or to believe man's fallible theories that changes by the day.

Ndipe has answered you regarding your allusion as to who a ‘Christian’ is and who is not, so I won’t bother with that.

Any study or science is made up of three parts – facts/evidence and investigation of the evidence and creation of a theory. A theory/ideology can be created that is NOT in agreement with the evidence/facts, but it does not NEGATE the existence of those facts.

I am not an ‘evolutionist’ nor am I an ‘evolutionary biologist’. I am definitely not a follower of a ‘religion of evolutionary theory’ either!
I do not know the exact processes involved in God’s creation, neither do I claim to do so. I WILL NOT be railroaded into believing someone’s possibly WRONG INTERPRETATION of scripture.
I have never fit into any nice ‘categories’ as you would like to place me or others in, I simply look at evidence and try to come to my own conclusions. I don’t think the earth is 6,400 years old neither do I think that Genesis is a completely DESCRIPTIVE account of what happened during creation down to every single detail. The bible said the Spirit of God moved over the waters- does it tell you HOW LONG that went on for. Why would you now want to read a time scale into something a time scale was not given for??
Does the bible describe the process of volcanic eruptions or earthquakes or hurricanes? Does that mean I cannot reason with God-given intellect to understand those processes?

Is that what YOUR faith is dependent on? How ‘old’ the earth is??
You can quote scripture from now till infinity, it will not change my mind. The basis of my faith is in God creating the universe, regardless of the time frame or method. What is evolution anyways? Is it not a PROCESS? Could God not have initiated the PROCESS?

Not everything has to fit into a ‘scientific law’ before it is credible or applied – You are obviously not well versed in science to be making such baseless claims. I will always look at evidence and come up with my own conclusions; it is not dependent on YOUR interpretation.

You should cease and desist from trying to guilt people into believing this stuff you are churning up. Like I said earlier, your brothers in the Catholic Church did the same to Copernicus – we know how that ended up.

Regarding 'how long' it took him to create - the word interpreted as 'day' in English is 'Yom' in Hebrew and can mean days, or ages - you tell me, how can you show me that this is CONCLUSIVELY days not ages spanning billions of years?

@Ndipe, debosky and any other theistic evolutionists who believe in the day-age theory, which is more deadly than the theory of evolution itself.

Romans 3:4 declares: "Let God be true, and every man a liar."  One with God is a majority and it does not matter how many of you that gather together to believe in a lie, God will always remain true to His Word.  In every instance where someone has not accepted the "days" of creation to be ordinary days, they have not allowed the words of Scripture to speak to them in context, as the language requires for communication.  They have been influenced by ideas from outside of Scriptures.

God's people need to realise that the Word of God is something very special.  It is not just the words of men.  As Paul said in 1 Thessalonians 2:13 "You received it not as the word of men, but as it is, truly the word of God."  Proverbs 30:5-6 states that "every word of God is pure . . . Do not add to His words, lest He reprove you and you be found a liar."  The Bible cannot be treated as just some great literary work.  We need to "tremble at His Word" (Isa.6:5) and not forget that:

All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work - 2 Tim.3:16-17

In the original autographs, every word and every letter in the Bible is there because God put it there.  Let us listen to God speaking to us through His Word and not arrogantly think we can tell God what He really means!

I will suggest you read the article in the link below if you are still doubting whether God could really create everything in 6 days, that's if you have not already made up your minds and don't want to be confused by the truths of God's Words, figures and facts.

Could God have created in six days?

Once again you are keen to throw names at people. I am not a 'theistic evolutionist'. I am no trying to convince anyone as to the age of the earth, I simply choose not to hold myself to YOUR (and others') interpretation.

God COULD have created the earth in 6 days or six billion years - my faith is NOT anchored on that. I do not think it takes anything away from God's power for it to take 6 billion years, neither is it only through 6 days that we can say God has power.

No one is telling God what he means - I have already shown you that there are other possibilities apart from the LITERAL translation you are taking. That is sufficient for me to keep an open mind on the exact nature of the creation.

I keep repeating the most pertinent example. In their religious fervour, the Roman Catholics excommunicated Copernicus for making a 'heretical' statement at the time about the earth revolving around the Sun.  

With mistakes like that already clear, why would I hold an absolute view about something as disputable as time??

The article does a reasonable job of stating it's case, but cannot be said to be absolute. God could have done it in literal days, I've never said it's not possible.

Catholics made the mistake, you can make it, I can make it, so let God be true and every man a liar.

God did not state anywhere that 'x years after creating the earth' in the bible, as such your 6,000 years is nothing but an estimation of man.  It may turn out to be true, but is by no means certain at this point.

@ Ola and (by Ola I dont mean bowale )

Why do U keep referring to people that dont neccessarily follow ur persuasions as evolutionist? That is so not fair. The way U intend to interpret the bible is entirely up to you but U should not expect everybody to agree with you. I personally dont subscribe with ur use of numbers to justify the authenticity of the bible and that does not make me less of a christian. The numbers 1 to 9 already have a pattern and so it aint rocket science when manipulation of numbers throws up certain patterns. Little wonder that even occult sciences like astrology and even tarot card readers use numerology to justify their beliefs.

OLAADEGBU:

@Ndipe, debosky and any other theistic evolutionists who believe in the day-age theory, which is more deadly than the theory of evolution itself.
Romans 3:4 declares: "Let God be true, and every man a liar."  One with God is a majority and it does not matter how many of you that gather together to believe in a lie, God will always remain true to His Word.  In every instance where someone has not accepted the "days" of creation to be ordinary days, they have not allowed the words of Scripture to speak to them in context, as the language requires for communication.  They have been influenced by ideas from outside of Scriptures.

God's people need to realise that the Word of God is something very special.  It is not just the words of men.  As Paul said in 1 Thessalonians 2:13 "You received it not as the word of men, but as it is, truly the word of God."  Proverbs 30:5-6 states that "every word of God is pure . . . Do not add to His words, lest He reprove you and you be found a liar."  The Bible cannot be treated as just some great literary work.  We need to "tremble at His Word" (Isa.6:5) and not forget that:

All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work - 2 Tim.3:16-17

In the original autographs, every word and every letter in the Bible is there because God put it there.  Let us listen to God speaking to us through His Word and not arrogantly think we can tell God what He really means!

I will suggest you read the article in the link below if you are still doubting whether God could really create everything in 6 days, that's if you have not already made up your minds and don't want to be confused by the truths of God's Words, figures and facts.

http://www.answersingenesis.org/articles/nab/could-god-have-created-in-six-days

I dont believe in evolution at all!

@debosky, Ndipe, Finally and others who think God could have used the evolution process to create the earth.

There are serious consequences when we consider the possibility that God used evolutionary processes to create over millions of years, and one of them is that the Word of God will no longer be authoritative, the other is that the character of our merciful God will questioned as it is today.

If we say that we are Christians and accept the New Testament doctrines that Jesus Christ and Paul preached but reject the book of Genesis as literal history, the result will be what Thomas Huxley, who was called Darwin's bulldog had to say:

"the melancholy fact remains, that the position they have taken up is hopelessly untenable."  

Thomas Huxley went on to lambast those Christian compromisers and gave them a lesson of their lives.  This I am sad to say, is the reason why these atheists, who are seeking for excuses not to be accountable to God, will want to give more authority to their fallible philosophies since Christians are beginning to doubt their own source of authority.  He pointed out that for the so called theologians to be consistent they had to give up the Bible totally and that compromise is not acceptable.

The battle, really, is not one of the young earth versus old earth or billions of years versus 6 days, or creation versus evolution;  The real battle is the authority of the Word of God vs. man's fallible opinions. 

We Christians believe in the bodily Resurrection of our Lord Jesus Christ because of the words of Scripture ("according to Scriptures.", we believe in the 6 literal days of creation because of the words of Scripture ("In six days the Lord made . . . ".  "Then God said . . ."  His Word is the evidence of how and when God created, and His Word is incredibly clear.  The real issue is one of authority, is God's Word the authority, or is it man's word?

Read the link below to find out the reasons why God could not have used evolution to create, and see why the belief in millions of years of evolution not only contradicts the clear teaching of Genesis and the rest of the Scripture but also questions the character of God.

Couldn't God have used evolution?

The article in the link below gives at least nine reasons why Christians should not accept millions of years regarding the age of the earth.

Why Christians should not accept millions of years

in an act of war, one of the first tactics is to cut off the enemies supply lines,
one of the tactics used by Whites is to try to erase history of blacks so that black don't know about their history: Olmecs, Nubia, Egypt to mention just a few,

@debosky

Why would you now want to read a time scale into something a time scale was not given for??

1. First and foremost, who is a Christian
Answer: A Christian is someone who has accept Christ has his/her Lord and saviour, and who believes that Christ died for his/her sins and rose again on the third day as prophesised.


2. Why do you need to be a Christian
Answer: Because all men/women are born sinners and are therefore automatically condemn to eternal damnation



3. How did all men become sinners
Answer: You can only find out how all men became sinners from the beginning of the book of Genesis, no other book in the Bible shows how or why all men became sinners.



4. Where did the Book of Genesis show that all men became sinners condemned to die.
Answer:


Gen 3:7 And the eyes of them both were opened, and they knew that they were naked; and they sewed fig leaves together, and made themselves aprons.
Gen 3:8 And they heard the voice of the LORD God walking in the garden in the cool of the day: and Adam and his wife hid themselves from the presence of the LORD God amongst the trees of the garden.
Gen 3:9 And the LORD God called unto Adam, and said unto him, Where art thou?
Gen 3:10 And he said, I heard thy voice in the garden, and I was afraid, because I was naked; and I hid myself.
Gen 3:11 And he said, Who told thee that thou wast naked? Hast thou eaten of the tree, whereof I commanded thee that thou shouldest not eat?
Gen 3:12 And the man said, The woman whom thou gavest to be with me, she gave me of the tree, and I did eat.
Gen 3:13 And the LORD God said unto the woman, What is this that thou hast done? And the woman said, The serpent beguiled me, and I did eat.
Gen 3:14 And the LORD God said unto the serpent, Because thou hast done this, thou art cursed above all cattle, and above every beast of the field; upon thy belly shalt thou go, and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life:
Gen 3:15 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.
Gen 3:16 Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee.
Gen 3:17 And unto Adam he said, Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying, Thou shalt not eat of it: cursed is the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life;
Gen 3:18 Thorns also and thistles shall it bring forth to thee; and thou shalt eat the herb of the field;
Gen 3:19 In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return.
Gen 3:20 And Adam called his wife's name Eve; because she was the mother of all living.
Gen 3:21 Unto Adam also and to his wife did the LORD God make coats of skins, and clothed them.
Gen 3:22 And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:
Gen 3:23 Therefore the LORD God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken.
Gen 3:24 So he drove out the man; and he placed at the east of the garden of Eden Cherubims, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of life.




5. What exactly does it mean that all men became sinners
Answer: It means all men lost their immortality, God giving dominion and glory and are thus condemn to grow old and die and go to hell,

Gen 1:26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and[b][color=#000099] let them have dominion over[/b] the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.
Gen 1:27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.
Gen 1:28 And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth.
[/color]



6. Does that mean there was no death before man sinned as in no animal or man died before Adam sinned.
Answer: Yes, everything was perfect when God created it, God Himself said it was perfect, hence it can only be imperfect according to evolution if and only if God was lying.


Gen 1:1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.
Gen 1:2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.
Gen 1:3 And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.
Gen 1:4 And God saw the light, that it was good: and God divided the light from the darkness.
Gen 1:5 And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day.
Gen 1:6 And God said, Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters.
Gen 1:7 And God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament: and it was so.
Gen 1:8 And God called the firmament Heaven. And the evening and the morning were the second day.
Gen 1:9 And God said, Let the waters under the heaven be gathered together unto one place, and let the dry land appear: and it was so.
Gen 1:10 And God called the dry land Earth; and the gathering together of the waters called he Seas: and God saw that it was good.
Gen 1:11 And God said, Let the earth bring forth grass, the herb yielding seed, and the fruit tree yielding fruit after his kind, whose seed is in itself, upon the earth: and it was so.
Gen 1:12 And the earth brought forth grass, and herb yielding seed after his kind, and the tree yielding fruit, whose seed was in itself, after his kind: and God saw that[b] it was good[/b].
Gen 1:13 And the evening and the morning were the third day.
Gen 1:14 And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years:
Gen 1:15 And let them be for lights in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth: and it was so.
Gen 1:16 And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night: he made the stars also.
Gen 1:17 And God set them in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth,
Gen 1:18 And to rule over the day and over the night, and to divide the light from the darkness: and God saw that it was good.
Gen 1:19 And the evening and the morning were the fourth day.
Gen 1:20 And God said, Let the waters bring forth abundantly the moving creature that hath life, and fowl that may fly above the earth in the open firmament of heaven.
Gen 1:21 And God created great whales, and every living creature that moveth, which the waters brought forth abundantly, after their kind, and every winged fowl after his kind: and God saw that it was good.
Gen 1:22 And God blessed them, saying, Be fruitful, and multiply, and fill the waters in the seas, and let fowl multiply in the earth.
Gen 1:23 And the evening and the morning were the fifth day.
Gen 1:24 And God said, Let the earth bring forth the living creature after his kind, cattle, and creeping thing, and beast of the earth after his kind: and it was so.
Gen 1:25 And God made the beast of the earth after his kind, and cattle after their kind, and every thing that creepeth upon the earth after his kind: and God saw that[b] it was good[/b].
Gen 1:26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.
Gen 1:27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.
Gen 1:28 And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth.
Gen 1:29 And God said, Behold, I have given you every herb bearing seed, which is upon the face of all the earth, and every tree, in the which is the fruit of a tree yielding seed; to you it shall be for meat.
Gen 1:30 And to every beast of the earth, and to every fowl of the air, and to every thing that creepeth upon the earth, wherein there is life, I have given every green herb for meat: and it was so.
Gen 1:31 And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day.




7. How is it then that possible, considering that Evolution said there was death before man evolved.
Answer: Well you have to make a choice, either you believe the Bible or you believe Evolution, it is illogical and deceitful to believe the Bible at the same time trying to say that you believe Evolution. They give completely opposite view of events as examplified in the summary of genesis and evolution given in the attached picture.




8. How do i know Evolution is not in agreement with the bible. At least one of my pastors said that i can believe in evolution as a christian.
Answer: Well it is either your pastor is deceived himself or he's lying or The Bible is lying. So you have to make a personal choice on what to believe and what not to believe. Either The Bible is a liar or Evolution is a liar



9. But Evolution cannot be lying, since a lot of people believe in it, there must be a mistake in the Bible then. Or is it possible for a lot of people to be wrong about the same thing.
Answer: If there is a mistake in the Bible concerning creation, then it means Christ Himself was lying when he said:

a. There was a beginning
b. The beginning was when creation occurred
c. Man and Woman were created in the beginning.


Mat 19:4 And he answered and said unto them, Have ye not read, that he which made them at the beginning made them male and female,

Mar 10:6 But from the beginning of the creation God made them male and female.




10. Well but how can we know that the bible said that God specifically created everything, what if everything actually evolved according to evolution and under the direction of God.
Answer: Once again, it is either God is lying or Evolution is a lie. This is because the Bible clearly shows and tells us that God created the Heaven and Earth, the bible did not say that God evolved the heaven and the earth.

Gen 2:4 These are the generations of the heavens and of the earth when they were created, in the day that the LORD God made the earth and the heavens,




11. But what if God used billions/millions of years to create the heaven and the earth, how can we be sure that God did not use billions and millions of years to evolve or create things.
Answer: That would make God a liar because the Bible clearly shows that God Himself specified, mentioned, qualified and emphasised[/b]that there was a difference between [b]night and day, so that we would clearly understand that he was talking about a "literal" 24 hour day (that contains both night and day) for each day of creation.


Gen 1:2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.
Gen 1:3 And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.
Gen 1:4 And God saw the light, that it was good: and God divided the light from the darkness.
Gen 1:5 And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. A[b]nd the evening and the morning were the first day[/b].




12. Does it now mean you are trying to tell me that everything was created in 24hours literal days or something, I need proof, show me where the bible says that
Answer:


Gen 1:6 And God said, Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters.
Gen 1:7 And God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament: and it was so.
Gen 1:8 And God called the firmament Heaven. And the evening and the morning were the second day.
Gen 1:9 And God said, Let the waters under the heaven be gathered together unto one place, and let the dry land appear: and it was so.
Gen 1:10 And God called the dry land Earth; and the gathering together of the waters called he Seas: and God saw that it was good.
Gen 1:11 And God said, Let the earth bring forth grass, the herb yielding seed, and the fruit tree yielding fruit after his kind, whose seed is in itself, upon the earth: and it was so.
Gen 1:12 And the earth brought forth grass, and herb yielding seed after his kind, and the tree yielding fruit, whose seed was in itself, after his kind: and God saw that it was good.
Gen 1:13 And the evening and the morning were the third day.
Gen 1:14 And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years:
Gen 1:15 And let them be for lights in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth: and it was so.
Gen 1:16 And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night: he made the stars also.
Gen 1:17 And God set them in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth,
Gen 1:18 And to rule over the day and over the night, and to divide the light from the darkness: and God saw that it was good.
Gen 1:19 And the evening and the morning were the fourth day.
Gen 1:20 And God said, Let the waters bring forth abundantly the moving creature that hath life, and fowl that may fly above the earth in the open firmament of heaven.
Gen 1:21 And God created great whales, and every living creature that moveth, which the waters brought forth abundantly, after their kind, and every winged fowl after his kind: and God saw that it was good.
Gen 1:22 And God blessed them, saying, Be fruitful, and multiply, and fill the waters in the seas, and let fowl multiply in the earth.
Gen 1:23 And the evening and the morning were the fifth day.
Gen 1:24 And God said, Let the earth bring forth the living creature after his kind, cattle, and creeping thing, and beast of the earth after his kind: and it was so.
Gen 1:25 And God made the beast of the earth after his kind, and cattle after their kind, and every thing that creepeth upon the earth after his kind: and God saw that it was good.
Gen 1:26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.
Gen 1:27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.
Gen 1:28 And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth.
Gen 1:29 And God said, Behold, I have given you every herb bearing seed, which is upon the face of all the earth, and every tree, in the which is the fruit of a tree yielding seed; to you it shall be for meat.
Gen 1:30 And to every beast of the earth, and to every fowl of the air, and to every thing that creepeth upon the earth, wherein there is life, I have given every green herb for meat: and it was so.
Gen 1:31 And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day.
Gen 2:1 Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them.
Gen 2:2 And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made.
Gen 2:3 And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made.





13. Wow, why should i trust and believe everything you have said.

Answer: You do not have to trust me as a person, you only need to study, read and confirm the truth for yourself in the Bible, hence why i have included biblical references so that you can cross check it yourself, independent of my own biased opinion.



14. Thank you
Answer: You are welcome.

15. Wait before you go, what has being a Christian have to do with Creation versus Evolution , why are you wasting your time discussing about Creation versus Evolution when all we need is love and good works and good morals,

[color=#990000]Answer:
Fortunately, Creation has everything to do with Salvation and being a True Christian simply because:[/color]


1. Creation told us all how we got here in the first place ,
2. What happened to us when we got here ,
3. Why we all have to die one day,
4. Why it was even necessary to have Christ in the first place

This is because :


If there was no creation, then there would be no Adam,
If there was no Adam there would be no "us",
If there was no fall to sin, in the garden of Eden there would be no need for Christ to come to die for sins,

Hence there is a need for everyone to be a Christian because of the calamity that happened in the Garden of Eden,

Therefore once atheists and evolutionist succeed in removing the foundation of everything, i.e. once they succeed in removing the foundation of how life began, how sin came into the world and why Christ had to come into the world to save us all, THEN THERE WOULD BE NO REASON FOR ANYONE TO BE SAVED IN THE FIRST PLACE.

That exactly is why Atheist, Evolutionist, Catholics (who are proxies of the devil in disguise by the way) are doing there best to cut off the historical basis and reason for the need for salvation through Christ in the first place, since they know that once they succeed in doing that, people would become lost, disillusioned and without purpose hence become easy to defeat in the spiritual warfare going on.

16. Okay once again thank you
Answer: You are welcome

No2Atheism:

in an act of war, one of the first tactics is to cut off the enemies supply lines,
one of the tactics used by Whites is to try to erase history of blacks so that black don't know about their history: Olmecs, Nubia, Egypt to mention just a few,

@debosky

What is the relevance of your long winded quote to my question?

Did the bible tell you HOW LONG the Spirit of God moved over the waters for?

Gen 1:1  In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.
Gen 1:2  And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.
Gen 1:3  And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.
Gen 1:4  And God saw the light, that it was good: and God divided the light from the darkness.

All this happened BEFORE any 'days' were mentioned. Can YOU tell me HOW LONG the Spirit moved over the waters?? You guys are simply not being factual. Your attempts to bully people into believing your likely flawed views is laughable.

Gen 1:5  And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day.

HOW LONG went between 'in the beginning' and the creation of the first day (defined by the creation of light)

Once again, I do not say I believe in EVOLUTION - which is, by the way, a name given to explain evidence seen by man. Such evidence can be interpreted in different ways, I decide to keep an open mind on the matter.

All I believe is that, you are in no way qualified to conclusively say the earth is 6,400 years old, because, WITHOUT making assumptions ( this falls in the category of 'man's fallible opinions'  if you missed it) NO ONE can tell me the age of the earth.

I do not believe that God's word or the truth of his word lies on whether the 6 days were literal days or not. Like you rightly mentioned, believing in Jesus is the yard stick.

Your article says one thing that is accurate:
[size=20pt]
Now it is true that rejection of six literal days doesn’t ultimately affect one’s salvation, if one is truly born again.[/size]

This is the end of the matter for me - The fact that I don't agree with you on the six literal days doesn't make me any less a Christian. Any attempts to do so are attempts at exhibiting control (witchcraft) over what I choose to believe.

Debosky,

Someone who believes people go to hell and come back . He thinks he's belief in fancy stories of hell returnees and that of Kent Hovind and Ken Ham makes one a Christian.

He cannot tell us how long The Spirit of God moved over the waters, neither can he tell us if the ancients used the Julian calender we use today. So I pray you leave him to his beliefs.

@N2atheism

The age of the earth has nothing to do with Jesus or salvation. Adam was created 5 days after God created Light. This has nothing to do with when the earth was created.

@Olaadegbu

The earth is not 6000 years old. It is not written in the bible. This idea though based on the bible is not correct and till the end of ages will remain what it is today. A weak 'scientific' theory based on nonsense logic and bunkum

I would be lying to you if i say i am not astounded and disappointed that i have painstakingly gone through the details of my last post, and the best you could say was that "it was a long winded quote", wow!!! talk about a made up mind.

1. I do not know the age of the earth, i don't need to know and i am not going to guess how old the earth is that is not my business since the best that can be done is to guess and simply because The Bible did not tell me that, and it has nothing to do with my salvation.

The only thing that the Bible clearly tells me is that the Earth is only a few days (24 hour days) old than man itself relative to the day man was created. The bible also clearly tells me the definition of day is a 24 hours day. The bible did not tell me how old the earth is now.

2. God has already WARNED us not to add to that which was written, unfortunately an easy way to add to the word is to try to include into the bible via interpretations what the bible did not say. If you have noticed in my comment and response, I have tried not to use my own words as much as possible so that anything i saw can be crosschecked in relation to the bible itself.

3. The bible did not tell me how long the Spirit moved over the waters, because He did not need to tell me, it is not the duty of a Christian to "look for hidden and secret knowledge all in the motive of trying to deduce what is what from what is what not."

4. All i need to know about the time scale is that God created the Heavens and Earth in 6 literal 24 hours days simply because that is exactly what the Bible said, it is not my business perogative to now try to add to the bible by trying to say that the Spirit of God must have moved over the waters for 2 seconds or 1 minute or 4 years or 10 billion years , that is completely irrelevant. so trying to "guess" how long the spirit was over the waters simply amounts to trying to ignore what God has already told us about what happened (i.e Creation), how it happened and how long it took for it to happen.

5. Acquisition of secret knowledge beyond that which God has provided is partly what got us into this problem of sin and destruction in the garden of Eden in the first place (remember the tree of the knowledge of good and evil),

6. Remember that it is written that while some True Christians are strong enough to eat spiritual meat, yet others are still only able to be given spiritual milk, hence that is why it is important to Speak the Truth always in love to let everyone know:


a. Why Christ had to come to die for sins in the first place (what happened in Genesis)

b. Why believe in Evolution implies a Christian is ultimately saying The Bible is not completely true or not, which ultimately means that such a Christian openly or secretly has doubts about whether or not the bible is completely true or partially true or not true at all (something that is reflected in your comment about how long the spirit was over the waters, something completely irrelevant to what The Bible has already said about Creation having occured in 6 literal 24 hours days.)

c. Why believe in evolution ultimately affects the faith of any True Christian (baby or matured) which like i have said, simply because evolution is basically doing the same thing that the devil did to Adam and Eve in the garden, yes evolution makes an "unfaithfull" Christian to question whether or not the bible is actually true or not. (hence make them question whether or not something or a secret knowledge is missing in the Bible or not e.g. your how long did the Spirit travel over the water [/i]question)

d. There is a spiritual battle going on for the mind and souls of men, hence no spiritual weapon should be spared in the battle against lies and deceit,

e. There is nothing like a less Christian or a more Christian, it is either you completely believe Christ and Creation account or you don't. unfortunately that invariably means that such a christian is secretly saying The Bible is not truthfully, since i really don't think that bible can be any clearer than it already is,

f. There are many things that God has not told us, why because we don't need to know, so does that mean we don't know enough to know about out history, absolutely not, He has already detailed our history for us even more accurate than any historical book known to man. Hence i can't but help shake my head when you utter that word that  6 literal days does not matter so long as "you think" you are a christian,

By the way, I was once an secret/closet atheist/believer in Dake's annotated bible biblical evolutionary nonsense until I realised that the bible is completely correct and accurate just as it is, and that all the annotated bible nonsense and the amount of time spirit went over the waters nonsense is merely a means through which people are trying to "add" to the bible without even knowing it.

its either one is hot or cold as a Christian, Christ Himself says that he would reject any one (including you and I) that is lukewarm, i.e. anyone sitting on the fence, trying to believe [i]6-day-24hours creation account at the same time as he/she believes evolution. So you see I am not the one who says it is unbiblical and wrong for anyone to call himself a True Christian and still believe in evolution[b] , Christ himself says that no one is allowed to sit on the fence, when it comes to Biblical issues (Creation, Salvation, Evangelism etc)[/b]

Rev 3:16  So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth.

Yes it is true that:

a. You can have a personal opinion and that
b. I also have a personal opinion

Nonetheless our personal opinions is completely useless, rubbish and inconsequential in the big scheme of Spiritual matters. Those opinions are worthless so long as they are in conflict with what is clearly written and declared in the The Bible.

By the way, just as our personal opinion did not determine our Salvation or path to salvation, so also, our personal opinion cannot determine whether or not Biblical account about Creation is true or not. The Bible itself says it is a 24hours 6 day creation,

The Bible is true and accurate as it is , no need to add human opinion and interpretations to it,


Adios,

No2Atheism:

I would be lying to you if i say i am not astounded and disappointed that i have painstakingly gone through the details of my last post, and the best you could say was that "it was a long winded quote", wow!!! talk about a made up mind.

1. I do not know the age of the earth, i don't need to know and i am not going to guess how old the earth is that is not my business since the best that can be done is to guess and simply because The Bible did not tell me that, and it has nothing to do with my salvation.

The only thing that the Bible clearly tells me is that the Earth is only a few days (24 hour days) old than man itself relative to the day man was created. The bible also clearly tells me the definition of day is a 24 hours day. The bible did not tell me how old the earth is now.

Tell your brother Ola that - he keeps insisting that a 'true Christian' would believe the earth is 6,400 years old!

I have also said I don't know the age of the earth

By the way, just as our personal opinion did not determine our Salvation or path to salvation, so also, our personal opinion cannot determine whether or not Biblical account about Creation is true or not. The Bible itself says it is a [b]24hours 6 day creation,

See this man oh! Who defined what 'an hour' was? Does the bible tell you the day was composed of[b] 24 HOURS[/b]? Did MOSES measure time in HOURS??

Stop digging a hole for yourself. If you show me in Genesis where 24 hours were mentioned, I will give you £200 today.

2. God has already WARNED us not to add to that which was written, unfortunately an easy way to add to the word is to try to include into the bible via interpretations what the bible did not say. If you have noticed in my comment and response, I have tried not to use my own words as much as possible so that anything i saw can be crosschecked in relation to the bible itself.

3. The bible did not tell me how long the Spirit moved over the waters, because He did not need to tell me, it is not the duty of a Christian to "look for hidden and secret knowledge all in the motive of trying to deduce what is what from what is what not."

OH REALLY??

So your duty is to stay ignorant and keep believing falsehoods? You would have been in excellent company with the Catholics who excommunicated Copernicus.

What is 'secret knowlege' about time? Is it not your fellow brother OLA that is trying to show me that he has 'proof' that the earth is 6400 years old? Is that not 'hidden knowledge'?

In any case, I don't know what YOUR bible says, but mine says this

Proverbs 25:2 It is the glory of God to hide things but the glory of kings to investigate them.

4. All i need to know about the time scale is that God created the Heavens and Earth in 6 literal 24 hours days simply because that is exactly what the Bible said, it is not my business perogative to now try to add to the bible by trying to say that the Spirit of God must have moved over the waters for 2 seconds or 1 minute or 4 years or 10 billion years , that is completely irrelevant. so trying to "guess" how long the spirit was over the waters simply amounts to trying to ignore what God has already told us about what happened (i.e Creation), how it happened and how long it took for it to happen.

It is not irrelevant, if you were following the discourse before barging in.

For anyone to tell me DEFINITIVELY how old the earth is, he must be able to tell me how long ALL the processes in Genesis take place. For someone claiming to use the bible as the basis for such a claim, he must show me IN THE BIBLE the basis for such a claim. There is NO BASIS for estimating the period of time the Spirit of God moved over the earth. That is simply ONE piece of evidence that discounts ANY attempt to FIX the earth's age using biblical accounts - IT WAS NOT MEANT FOR THAT PURPOSE IN MY OPINION.

Jeremiah described being formed in his mother's womb - was that exercise designed to teach us BIOLOGY or reflect a divine connection?

5. Acquisition of secret knowledge beyond that which God has provided is partly what got us into this problem of sin and destruction in the garden of Eden in the first place (remember the tree of the knowledge of good and evil),

This is meaningless nonsense - the problem of genesis was NOT the knowledge but disobedience. STOP trying to encourage ignorance in the name of 'spirituality'.

Again: Proverbs 25:2 It is the glory of God to hide things but the glory of kings to investigate them.

6. Remember that it is written that while some True Christians are strong enough to eat spiritual meat, yet others are still only able to be given spiritual milk, hence that is why it is important to Speak the Truth always in love to let everyone know:


a. Why Christ had to come to die for sins in the first place (what happened in Genesis)

I have no problem with the above - and it is irrelevant to this discussion. The LENGTH OF TIME of the occurrences in Genesis is not the determinant of their validity.

c. Why believe in evolution ultimately affects the faith of any True Christian (baby or matured) which like i have said, simply because evolution is basically doing the same thing that the devil did to Adam and Eve in the garden, yes evolution makes an "unfaithfull" Christian to question whether or not the bible is actually true or not. (hence make them question whether or not something or a secret knowledge is missing in the Bible or not e.g. your how long did the Spirit travel over the water [/i]question)

This is utter RUBBISH. You guys are forcing an INTERPRETATION of the bible on others as the truth, when the bible gives no DEFINITIVE information.

This is not about 'secret knowledge'. There are SO MANY THINGS not explicitly stated in the bible that we know today. Believing any of that does not mean I am questioning the truth of the bible.

My belief that the internet is a mode of communication is NOT explained or REVEALED in the bible - does that render my belief in the internet a denial of the truth of the bible?

This is faulty, misguided thought at it's height. You CANNOT threaten me or imply that my questioning of an INTERPRETATION (because that is in essence what any time specific calculation of the earth's origin is) means I don't believe the bible.

e. There is nothing like a less Christian or a more Christian, it is either you completely believe Christ and Creation account or you don't. unfortunately that invariably means that such a christian is secretly saying The Bible is not truthfully, since i really don't think that bible can be any clearer than it already is,

f. There are many things that God has not told us, why because we don't need to know, [/b]so does that mean we don't know enough to know about out history, absolutely not, He has already detailed our history for us even more accurate than any historical book known to man. Hence i can't but help shake my head when you utter that word that 6 literal days does not matter so long as "you think" you are a christian,

Another attempt to FORCE your INTERPRETATION on others. I am keeping an OPEN MIND regarding a PARTICULAR [b]interpretation. It REMOVES NOTHING from my belief of the Bible.

The bolded is a LIE, again

[size=15pt]PROVERBS 25:2 It is the glory of God to conceal a thing: but the honour of kings is to search out a matter.!!![/size]

By the way, I was once an secret/closet atheist/believer in Dake's annotated bible biblical evolutionary nonsense until I realised that the bible is completely correct and accurate just as it is, and that all the annotated bible nonsense and the amount of time spirit went over the waters nonsense is merely a means through which people are trying to "add" to the bible without even knowing it.

Again this is irrelevant. This discourse has nothing to do with what you read in whatever annotation. I am not seeking to add something, simply proving certain information is NOT available and should not be assumed by one person and forced down the throat of another.

its either one is hot or cold as a Christian, Christ Himself says that he would reject any one (including you and I) that is lukewarm, i.e. anyone sitting on the fence, trying to believe [i]6-day-24hours creation account at the same time as he/she believes evolution. So you see I am not the one who says it is unbiblical and wrong for anyone to call himself a True Christian and still believe in evolution[b] , Christ himself says that no one is allowed to sit on the fence, when it comes to Biblical issues (Creation, Salvation, Evangelism etc)[/b]

This is not sitting on the fence - I have NEVER denied creation. I NEVER said I believed evolution. How many times must I say this before you hear? EVOLUTION is an INTERPRETATION of EVIDENCE. I keep an OPEN MIND as to the exact INTERPRETATION of that evidence.

Dude I am highly disappointed - you keep harping on someone believing evolution - where did I say I believed in Evolution?? In your attempt to 'enlighten' me, you insist on classifying me based on your prejudices that have NOTHING to do with what I am saying here.

For the umpteenth time I DO NOT BELIEVE IN EVOLUTION. ALL I have said is, NO ONE, not YOU, not OLA, not THE SCIENTISTS, can tell me the earth is DEFINITIVELY 6400 years old!

Why is that so hard for you to accept?

OLAADEGBU:

@[b]debosky, Ndipe, Finally and others who think God could have used the evolution process to create the earth.[/b]

There are serious consequences when we consider the possibility that God used evolutionary processes to create over millions of years, and one of them is that the Word of God will no longer be authoritative, the other is that the character of our merciful God will questioned as it is today.

If we say that we are Christians and accept the New Testament doctrines that Jesus Christ and Paul preached but reject the book of Genesis as literal history, read what Thomas Huxley, who was called Darwin's bulldog had to say:
[list]
[li]" the melancholy fact remains, that the position they have taken up is hopelessly untenable." [/li]
[/list] 
Thomas Huxley went on to lambast those Christian compromisers and gave them a lesson of their lives.  This I am sad to say, is the reason why these atheists, who are seeking for excuses not to be accountable to God, will want to give more authority to their fallible philosophies since Christians are beginning to doubt their own source of authority.  He pointed out that for the so called theologians to be consistent they had to give up the Bible totally and that compromise is not acceptable.

The battle, really, is not one of the young earth versus old earth or billions of years versus 6 days, or creation versus evolution;  The real battle is the authority of the Word of  God vs. man's fallible opinions. 

We Christians believe in the bodily Resurrection of our Lord Jesus Christ because of the words of Scripture ("according to Scriptures.", we believe in the 6 literal days of creation because of the words of Scripture ("In six days the Lord made . . . ".  "Then God said . . ."  His Word is the evidence of how and when God created, and His Word is incredibly clear.  The real issue is one of authority, is God's Word the authority, or is it man's word?

Read the link below to find out the reasons why God could not have used  evolution to create, and see why the belief in millions of years of evolution not only contradicts the clear teaching of Genesis and the rest of the Scripture but also questions the character of God.

http://www.answersingenesis.org/articles/nab/couldnt-god-have-used-evolution

Ola, how many times have I told you that I dont believe in evolution? Never will believe in it, as long as the Good Lord keeps me alive, Amen.

Until you can show me where it is written in the Holy Bible the age of the world, then I am not inclined to believe that the world is 6,400 years old. Ok, let me ask you this question. Its generally believed that Jesus Christ died 2000 years ago, right? And I do know that He died and Resurrected again. The time frame, however, I am not sure, and that automatically does not bar me from inheriting His Salvation. However, if you are gonna believe that this blessed event occured two thousand years ago, then how can you explain the time frame between Methuselah (who died when he was over 900 years old) to King David, to Rehoboam, to the captivity, I mean, would you honestly say that the time lapse may not have been 1000 years between Methuselah and Jeremiah? I dont know for sure.

See this man oh! Who defined what 'an hour' was? Does the bible tell you the day was composed of 24 HOURS? Did MOSES measure time in HOURS??

Stop digging a hole for yourself. If you show me in Genesis where 24 hours were mentioned, I will give you £200 today.

Yes you are correct using 24hours as the biblical reference for a day is wrong, I used 24hours because 24hours is the generally agreed unit of time in our time anage, hence it means that if 30hours was the generally agree unit of time within a day i would have gladly used 30 hours instead.

Nonetheless despite my misstep on that point/note it still cannot be discounted that the BIBLE was very clear that GOD HIMSELF THAT EVERYTHING (heavens and earth) was created in 6 literal days (where a single literal day means our normal daytime + night time).

So your duty is to stay ignorant and keep believing falsehoods?

1. By Falsehood i want to presume you mean it is falsehood when the bible clearly says that GOD HIMSELF said everything was created in 6 literal days,

2. I would let personal attack and insult pass, responding to that is irrelevant to the issue at hand.

For anyone to tell me DEFINITIVELY how old the earth is, he must be able to tell me how long ALL the processes in Genesis take place. For someone claiming to use the bible as the basis for such a claim, he must show me IN THE BIBLE the basis for such a claim. There is NO BASIS for estimating the period of time the Spirit of God moved over the earth. That is simply ONE piece of evidence that discounts ANY attempt to FIX the earth's age using biblical accounts - IT WAS NOT MEANT FOR THAT PURPOSE IN MY OPINION.

1. No one is telling you how old the earth, no one can, simply because the bible only told us how it start and how long it took to start that bible did not tell us when it start, the best anyone can do is to guess about the age of the earth (i don't deal with guesses, i deal with hard cold facts as started in the bible even if those facts are against my own opinion) hence i really don't understand why you keep banging on about the age of the earth considering that whether or not we talk about the age of the earth does not change the fact that GOD HIMSELF told us that the earth was HEAVEN AND EARTH and EVERYTHING IN IT was created in 6 literal days.

2. All that anyone can telling is how old the earth is relative to man, i.e. the earth is only a few days older than man. (Because the Bible said so and not because i said so)
3. Talking about the number of days or hours or years it took that spirit of God to move over the waters is COMPLETELY irrelevant to the discussion at hand for the simple reason, that "the bible did not give us any information that would help us answer that question", hence the only way you are going to get an answer to that is if you "look for the answer outside the bible" and then add that knowledge to what the bible has already told you, (which is what i am talking about when i talk about the dangers and error in seeking hidden and secret knowledge, considering that you have no biblical basis to cross check whether or not your acquired hidden or secret knowledge is true or not).

Also my statement about hidden and secret knowledge was made in reference to spiritual and biblical matters, off course God gave us a brain to use (infact he instructed us in a condeming way that we would labour, of which the use of our brain in the physical world for physical things is one of them), hence why Paul himself was a worker (using his brain) to do this in the physical world. Please don't confuse the statement about secret knowledge with the God given ability for us to use our brains to think things through and bring about inventions in the physical realm, MY STATEMENT WAS TALKING ABOUT KNOWLEDGE THAT DEALS WITH SPIRITUAL ISSUES NOT PHYSICAL ISSUES, thank you.  

For anyone to tell me DEFINITIVELY how old the earth is, he must be able to tell me how long ALL the processes in Genesis take place.

Creation is a miracle, Creation of HEAVEN AND EARTH IS A MIRACLE beyond us, however that does not follow a natural process or thinking pattern that is discernable by man, that is why people (atheist and evolutionist) are stuggling and failing to understand how it could have been possible to CREATE everything in only 6 literal days.

The fact that you do not understand how or why it is possible for God to create everything within 6 literal days does not mean God is a liar, rather it means you should look at yourself, because it shows that you are willing to believe certain things in the bible that go along with your logic , yet you are simply unable to accept or believe certain things that do not agree to your logic and pattern of how things should be.

Who is the person who is simply unable to believe that God is able to do something that he (the person) is unable to understand or rationalise , the Glory of God shines forth in doing things which are obviously humanely impossible to occur within our frame of reference.

Christ himself criticised people for their unbelieve of his miracles (some pharasees even went as far as saying Christ was using devils to cast out devils), hence what do you call yourself when you are at point where you simply refuse to believe that GOD created everything in 6 literal days, because it does not agree with your logic.

It does not take one to be an Atheist before one is an unbeliever, True Christians are expected to show themselves faithful in both the little things and the bigs things,


Also to say that you are keeping an OPEN MIND as you say, is just a code word for saying that you believe some things for now, but you don't believe somethings for now, unfortunately Christ Himself said that there is space nor opportunity for anyone to sit on the fence, its either you are HOT or you are COLD.

This is meaningless nonsense - the problem of genesis was NOT the knowledge but disobedience. STOP trying to encourage ignorance in the name of 'spirituality'.

Come one this is english language, use of english is basically what is happening here, notice that i used the qualifying word "partly" to qualify that the desire to eat of the fruit of knowledge of good and evil partly resulted in the act of disobedience

The LENGTH OF TIME of the occurrences in Genesis is not the determinant of their validity.

So in essence does that mean? that you are saying that since the lenght of time stated by the bible for the occurrence of Creation (6 literal days) does not agree with your logic, then it means they are not valid.
Please expantiate before i comment.

Again this is irrelevant. This discourse has nothing to do with what you read in whatever annotation. I am not seeking to add something, simply proving certain information is NOT available and should not be assumed by one person and forced down the throat of another.

1. you accuse me of assuming an information (I have already retracted the issue of 24 hours and shown you while it is irrelevant whether or not it is 24 hours or 30 hours , since we are still talking about a single day).
2. Can you please show me whatelse i have said which i have assumed that warrants such a comment from you.
3. Can you please show me whether or not GOD HIMSELF said a day means "daytime + nighttime" is true or not.

EVOLUTION is an INTERPRETATION of EVIDENCE. I keep an OPEN MIND as to the exact INTERPRETATION of that evidence.

Dude I am highly disappointed - you keep harping on someone believing evolution - where did I say I believed in Evolution?? In your attempt to 'enlighten' me, you insist on classifying me based on your prejudices that have NOTHING to do with what I am saying here.

For the umpteenth time I DO NOT BELIEVE IN EVOLUTION. ALL I have said is, NO ONE, not YOU, not OLA, not THE SCIENTISTS, can tell me the earth is DEFINITIVELY 6400 years old!

Like it is said in "Southpark" I am not your dude , i am not your buddy, i am not your mate, i am not your guy, , just kidding, !!!

Okay back to your statement:

1. Refer to my earlier statement about what it means for a so called "Christian" to say he/she is keeping an open mind. (i don't want to repeat myself)
2. Wow, did you just say Evolution is an interpretation of an evidence,

okay let me do a little tutorial here:
a. The same so called fossil, geologic and other records available to evolutionist is mostly (atheist and evolutionist are in power hence the expected slight discrimination at times) also that same one available to creationist.

b. Don't believe the myth that Evolutionist are scientist and creationist are not, there are scientist on both sides of the discussion, although propaganda and media would want to make you believe that anyone who believes in literal 6-day Creation is a nutjob. that is not true, for example I am also into research (albeit engineering and mathematical sha)

c. Any interpretation given by creationist scientist and evolutionary scientist is bound to be a subjective statement because of one simply fact, IT CANNOT BE TESTED TO KNOW WHETHER OR NOT THE INTERPRETATION IS TRUE OR NOT, so you see therein lies the problem with people that try to use propaganda that evolution is science and creation is not. Evolution is an UNTESTABLE hypothesis.

d.Since both of the intepretation from creationist and evolutionist cannot be right at the same time, hence one of them is lying.

e. If one of them is lying then one needs a reference to crosscheck which one, unfortunately there is absolutely no reference to do that crosschecking,

f. unfortunately for the evolutionist recent publications from genetist, biologist and so on , are gradually showing that inherently unusual problems that invalidate the evolutionary view, some of those problems include:
1. Polystrata fossils
2. Extreme Complexity of protein and cells
3. Irreducible complexity

Those problems observed simply show that it is simply "IMPOSSIBLE" FOR anything to have evolved purely by chance, (hence why you now have some non-christians who have now become intelligent design advocates)

g. Finally ultimately this means that a Christian cannot believe evolutionary intepretation of the evidence since they contradict the bible and at the same time also claim to believe the bible is completely true, hence any Christian who does that finds his/herself in the OPEN MINDED trap that you have found yourself in , unfortunately this openmindedness simply means that such a christian believes the bible might be true in some instances while at the same not be true in some instances.
Thus the only way such a christian can justify such a stand while still retain the toga of believing the bible is completely true is if such a christian "adds" ideas or re-interpretes the bible so that the bible would look like its saying something different from what it is clearly saying.
That explains the "spirit over water time frame" conundrum that you brought up,

The only reason you are talking about the "spirit over water frame conundrum" is probably  because somewhere along the line, some is trying to add the [b]millions of years [/b]into the bible, in other to justify their evolutionary beliefs/openmindedness.

I rest my case.

No2Atheism:

Yes you are correct using 24hours as the biblical reference for a day is wrong, I used 24hours because 24hours is the generally agreed unit of time in our time anage, hence it means that if 30hours was the generally agree unit of time within a day i would have gladly used 30 hours instead.

Nonetheless despite my misstep on that point/note it still cannot be discounted that the BIBLE was very clear that GOD HIMSELF THAT EVERYTHING (heavens and earth) was created in 6 literal days (where a single literal day means our normal daytime + night time).

Thanks for admitting your folly - I apologise if you felt I insulted you, that was not my intention.

The bible said 'days', which one is 'literal days'? Did the bible say 'literal days'?

1. By Falsehood i want to presume you mean it is falsehood when the bible clearly says that GOD HIMSELF said everything was created in 6 literal days,

2. I would let personal attack and insult pass, responding to that is irrelevant to the issue at hand.

Your presumption is wrong - If you BOTHERED to look at my previous posts, you would see where I stated

God COULD have created the earth in 6 days or six billion years - my faith is NOT anchored on that. I do not think it takes anything away from God's power for it to take 6 billion years, neither is it only through 6 days that we can say God has power.

Once again - do not impute your meaning into my posts.

1. No one is telling you how old the earth, no one can, simply because the bible only told us how it start and how long it took to start that bible did not tell us when it start, the best anyone can do is to guess about the age of the earth (i don't deal with guesses, i deal with hard cold facts as started in the bible even if those facts are against my own opinion) hence i really don't understand why you keep banging on about the age of the earth considering that whether or not we talk about the age of the earth does not change the fact that GOD HIMSELF told us that the earth was HEAVEN AND EARTH and EVERYTHING IN IT was created in 6 literal days.

Tell that to OLA trying to force us to believe the earth is 6,400 years old. Before you barged in to defend him, you would notice this was the crux of my argument all along.

2. All that anyone can telling is how old the earth is relative to man, i.e. the earth is only a few days older than man. (Because the Bible said so and not because i said so)

The bible told you so? The bible said 'the earth is only a few days older than man'? If the bible told you that and told you Adams age, can you not add the two to get the age of the earth? Or are you saying the dispute in the age of the earth is a matter of days? Please clarify on this.

3. Talking about the number of days or hours or years it took that spirit of God to move over the waters is COMPLETELY irrelevant to the discussion at hand for the simple reason, that "the bible did not give us any information that would help us answer that question", hence the only way you are going to get an answer to that is if you "look for the answer outside the bible" and then add that knowledge to what the bible has already told you, (which is what i am talking about when i talk about the dangers and error in seeking hidden and secret knowledge, considering that you have no biblical basis to cross check whether or not your acquired hidden or secret knowledge is true or not).

You missed my point completely. It's relevance is based in simple logic.

Ola asserts that FROM THE BIBLE, the earth is 6400 years old - on that basis, everything before Adam must be accurately quantified in the bible to arrive at that conclusion. It is not (in m opinion) and thus is a prime reason why you or anyone else cannot tell me the age of the earth from biblical evidence. I am not interested in 'looking for knowledge outside the bible', I am simply stating an obvious flaw in the 6400 year argument.

Also my statement about hidden and secret knowledge was made in reference to spiritual and biblical matters, off course God gave us a brain to use (infact he instructed us in a condeming way that we would labour, of which the use of our brain in the physical world for physical things is one of them), hence why Paul himself was a worker (using his brain) to do this in the physical world. Please don't confuse the statement about secret knowledge with the God given ability for us to use our brains to think things through and bring about inventions in the physical realm, MY STATEMENT WAS TALKING ABOUT KNOWLEDGE THAT DEALS WITH SPIRITUAL ISSUES NOT PHYSICAL ISSUES, thank you.  

Can you define a 'spiritual' issue here? Is the age of the earth a physical or a spiritual issue? If it is the former, why bring a point about spiritual issues into a physical argument? You tend to go off point a lot please stay ON TOPIC.

Creation is a miracle, Creation of HEAVEN AND EARTH IS A MIRACLE beyond us, however that does not follow a natural process or thinking pattern that is discernable by man, that is why people (atheist and evolutionist) are stuggling and failing to understand how it could have been possible to CREATE everything in only 6 literal days.

Can you tell us the details or do you 'understand' it? What does 'understanding' entail? Why is it only atheists and evolutionists that are failing to understand? Can you give us the specifics of the process of creation? If you can't, does that mean you don't understand? This is a bit of pointless name calling.

[b]The fact that you do not understand how or why it is possible for God to create everything within 6 literal days [/b]does not mean God is a liar, rather it means you should look at yourself, because it shows that you are willing to believe certain things in the bible that go along with your logic , yet you are simply unable to accept or believe certain things that do not agree to your logic and pattern of how things should be.

Again you presume wrongly, see my previous quote on my view on the matter. You cannot tell me what to believe or not. I don' have to take each and every claim in the bible and declare 'I understand it!!' before I have faith in God. Each day I ask for illumination of His Word, sorry to disappoint you with my open attitude.

Regarding my 'logic'. This is what God says - Isaiah 1:18 "Come now, and let us reason together," God doesn't despise an inquisitive mind, unlike you seem to do.

Who is the person who is simply unable to believe that God is able to do something that he (the person) is unable to understand or rationalise , the Glory of God shines forth in doing things which are obviously humanely impossible to occur within our frame of reference.

Is a billion years in ANY human being's frame of reference Once again, don't impute meanings where there are none. I have never said I doubted miracles. I believe them, and I can even say I have experienced them personally.

Christ himself criticised people for their unbelieve of his miracles (some pharasees even went as far as saying Christ was using devils to cast out devils), hence what do you call yourself when you are at point where you simply refuse to believe that GOD created everything in 6 literal days, because it does not agree with your logic.

Once again, read my posts. I believe it is possible in 6 'literal days', I just don't believe that is the basis for my faith.

It does not take one to be an Atheist before one is an unbeliever, True Christians are expected to show themselves faithful in both the little things and the bigs things,

Ok now I ask you directly. What stood still in Joshua - was it the SUN like Joshua said or the earth? Does the SUN move? Please answer this question, since you are into LITERAL explanations of the bible. This faithfulness in little things is completely out of place. I have never said I don't believe - I simply say, I will not hold a firm unshakable opinion about 6 days - literal or otherwise, because that is NOT the basis of my faith.

Also to say that you are keeping an OPEN MIND as you say, is just a code word for saying that you believe some things for now, but you don't believe somethings for now, unfortunately Christ Himself said that there is space nor opportunity for anyone to sit on the fence, its either you are HOT or you are COLD.

You are wrong - this is not what my open mind means. For the umpteenth time I have given you the example of the Catholics about the earth revolving around the son. They 'believed' that the earth was the centre of the universe, but they were proved wrong, while the bible still stays correct. My mind is OPEN as to the INTERPRETATION of evidence - it may be 6 days, 6 'literal days', 6 'ages' or anything else for that matter - once again, that is not the basis of my faith.

Come one this is english language, use of english is basically what is happening here, notice that i used the qualifying word "partly" to qualify that the desire to eat of the fruit of knowledge of good and evil partly resulted in the act of disobedience

Alright, you qualified it with partly. Once again, the sin wasn't seeking knowledge, it was the wrong belief of what knowledge would make them - 'equal with God' and more pertinently DISOBEDIENCE.

So in essence does that mean? that you are saying that since the lenght of time stated by the bible for the occurrence of Creation (6 literal days) does not agree with your logic, then it means they are not valid.
Please expantiate before i comment.

There is no logic to agree with. I will keep an OPEN MIND regarding the EVIDENCE being used to JUSTIFY various theories. What logic have I claimed to believe contrary to the bible?? Again, stop inferring things that do not exist. I have not put forward anything as MY logic that doesn't agree with 6 literal days. I will take offense when hastily constructed, non-factual theories and half-truths are being forced on others as truth.

1. you accuse me of assuming an information (I have already retracted the issue of 24 hours and shown you while it is irrelevant whether or not it is 24 hours or 30 hours , since we are still talking about a single day).

Why are you limiting it to 30 hours? How do you know it is not 3,000 or 3,000,000 hours This is my problem with you - once you fix yourself on something not from the bible, you create all sorts of problems for yourself. Do you know the length of the day when God created the earth? Could a 'day' in that time be equivalent to 10 days or 1 week or 2 billion years now? Can you tell me for a fact it is one way or the other? Once you cannot do that, you are simply guessing and thus it is a meaningless exercise.

2. Can you please show me whatelse i have said which i have assumed that warrants such a comment from you.

What comments? I have continued to say, no one can define the age of the earth based on biblical information - in my opinion, such an exercise is futile and pointless.

3. Can you please show me whether or not GOD HIMSELF said a day means "daytime + nighttime" is true or not.

Am I debating that daytime and nighttime means 'a day'? Again, how long was the day and how long was the night? Can you tell me this? How fast was the earth rotating at that time (the determinant of the length of the day)? Can you tell me? Is it faster or slower than today?
Once again, my point is this - 6 'literal days' is not illuminative as to the age of the earth since we do not know the length of a day at that point, or whether a day's length has changed or not.

1. Refer to my earlier statement about what it means for a so called "Christian" to say he/she is keeping an open mind. (i don't want to repeat myself)

The key here is what the 'open mind' is about - is it about the articles of faith? That God created the world, everything in it and sent Jesus to die for us? Or is it about some detail some people want to force down other's throat without complete evidence?

2. Wow, did you just say Evolution is an interpretation of an evidence,

okay let me do a little tutorial here:
a. The same so called fossil, geologic and other records available to evolutionist is mostly (atheist and evolutionist are in power hence the expected slight discrimination at times) also that same one available to creationist.

b. Don't believe the myth that Evolutionist are scientist and creationist are not, there are scientist on both sides of the discussion, although propaganda and media would want to make you believe that anyone who believes in literal 6-day Creation is a nutjob. that is not true, for example I am also into research (albeit engineering and mathematical sha)

c. Any interpretation given by creationist scientist and evolutionary scientist is bound to be a subjective statement because of one simply fact, [b]IT CANNOT BE TESTED TO KNOW WHETHER OR NOT THE INTERPRETATION IS TRUE OR NOT, [/b]so you see therein lies the problem with people that try to use propaganda that evolution is science and creation is not. Evolution is an UNTESTABLE hypothesis.

I really don't care whether it is stable or not. I never claimed to believe it. CAN'T you understand that? Evolution is a theory, it is based on some observations. That is the only point I've made. Your tutorial is a bit pointless in this regard. I do not care about these terms evolutionist, creationist, etc. I am not in the league of engaging in name calling.

d.Since both of the intepretation from creationist and evolutionist cannot be right at the same time, hence one of them is lying.

Lying or misguided or wrongly interpreting evidence.

e. If one of them is lying then one needs a reference to crosscheck which one, unfortunately there is absolutely no reference to do that crosschecking,

So why are you killing yourself over which is right? once again - if the creationist is wrong, will your faith dissolve?

f. unfortunately for the evolutionist recent publications from genetist, biologist and so on , are gradually showing that inherently unusual problems that invalidate the evolutionary view, some of those problems include:
1. Polystrata fossils
2. Extreme Complexity of protein and cells
3. Irreducible complexity

Those problems observed simply show that it is simply "IMPOSSIBLE" FOR anything to have evolved purely by chance, (hence why you now have some non-christians who have now become intelligent design advocates)

Enough of this, I have said I do not believe in evolution.

g. Finally ultimately this means that a Christian cannot believe evolutionary intepretation of the evidence since they contradict the bible and at the same time also claim to believe the bible is completely true, hence any Christian who does that finds his/herself in the OPEN MINDED trap that you have found yourself in , unfortunately this openmindedness simply means that such a christian believes the bible might be true in some instances while at the same not be true in some instances.
Thus the only way such a christian can justify such a stand while still retain the toga of believing the bible is completely true is if such a christian "adds" ideas or re-interpretes the bible so that the bible would look like its saying something different from what it is clearly saying.
That explains the "spirit over water time frame" conundrum that you brought up,

The only reason you are talking about the "spirit over water frame conundrum" is probably  because somewhere along the line, some is trying to add the millions of years [/b]into the bible, in other to justify their evolutionary beliefs/openmindedness.

I rest my case.

You cannot define my open mindedness for me - you are not in my mind. This is your central flaw - your seeming need to define my state of mind. I leave the EXACT interpretation of the age of the earth open - I do not believe evolution, as I have said LEGION times. I do believe God created the earth. The exact time scales involved, and the meaning of those time scales vis a vis current day time, is as far as I'm concerned, unclear and not material for my faith.

Your analysis is not only flawed, it is untrue. [b]My open mindedness is regarding the interpretation of evidence - not the truth of the bible.

Once again, the only reason I brought up the 'conundrum' is to illustrate the folly of calculating the age of the earth. What does the bible being 'completely true' mean to you? A literal interpretation of everything?

I've asked you a question - did the SUN or the EARTH stand still in Joshua? Please tell me.

On a final note, stop making the mistake of fitting me into some box you have defined, just take my by virtue of my posts and don't impute reasoning unrelated to my posts.

@debosky and the gang,   

I now understand another reason that explains the struggle you guys are going through, and this is due to the gap theories that you subscribe to, which holds a literal view of Genesis, a belief in an extremely long but unidentified age of the earth and an obligation to fit the origin of most of the geologic strata and other geologic evidences between Genesis 1:1 and 1:2.  I realised that some of them even oppose the evolution theory but believe in an ancient origin of the universe, supported by some bible commentaries, such as Dake's, .  Click on the link below to find out the problems with this gap theory and see the consequences of picthing your tent with this theory.

Gap ruin reconstruction theories

OLAADEGBU:

@debosky and the gang,   

I now understand another reason that explains the struggle you guys are going through, and this is due to the gap theories that you subscribe to, which holds a literal view of Genesis, a belief in an extremely long but unidentified age of the earth and an obligation to fit the origin of most of the geologic strata and other geologic evidences between Genesis 1:1 and 1:2.  I realised that some of them even oppose the evolution theory but believe in an ancient origin of the universe, supported by some bible commentaries, such as Dake's, .  Click on the link below to find out the problems with this gap theory and see the consequences of pichting your tent with this theory.

http://www.answersingenesis.org/articles/nab/gap-ruin-reconstruction-theories

thank you jare , I have also tried to reason with him that fixating on "spirit over water conundrum" is merely a symptom of trying to take an idea outside of the bible and then put it into the bible by claiming that a the spirit "might" (guess work) have moved over the waters for millions of years or whateever.

A Day since creation has always been "daytime + night time", however it seems that is simply not enough, hence why i have pleaded with him to realise that he's falling into the trap of "lies" popularised by the certain so called "evolutionary Christians".

Infact i think i also mentioned somewhere on a thread to someone (unfortunately I can't remember) that this idea of not believing God is Truthful when HE said He created everything in 6 literal days (where 1 day = 1 daytime + 1 night time) , simply stems from the fact that some people (like me in the past before now, ) were also brainwashed into believing the GAP THEORY of trying to squeeze millions of years into the bible in other to try to believe creation and evolution at the same time.

Am sorry but i think the Bible is okay without extra additions from outside ideas, thank you  atheists and evolutionist and progressive creationist and gap theorist, you input is not needed to make God True, HE already is the Truth, The Way and Life,

Interesting really.
God is awesome

No2Atheism:

thank you jare , I have also tried to reason with him that fixating on "spirit over water conundrum" is merely a symptom of trying to take an idea outside of the bible and then put it into the bible by claiming that a the spirit "might" (guess work) have moved over the waters for millions of years or whateever.

A Day since creation has always been "daytime + night time", however it seems that is simply not enough, hence why i have pleaded with him to realise that he's falling into the trap of "lies" popularised by the certain so called "evolutionary Christians".

Infact i think i also mentioned somewhere on a thread to someone (unfortunately I can't remember) that this idea of not believing God is Truthful when HE said He created everything in 6 literal days (where 1 day = 1 daytime + 1 night time) , simply stems from the fact that some people (like me in the past before now, ) were also brainwashed into believing the GAP THEORY of trying to squeeze millions of years into the bible in other to try to believe creation and evolution at the same time.

Am sorry but i think the Bible is okay without extra additions from outside ideas, thank you  atheists and evolutionist and progressive creationist and gap theorist, you input is not needed to make God True, HE already is the Truth, The Way and Life,

Who has argued about a Day not being 'daytime' and 'nighttime'? I see you conveniently ignored my questions.

How LONG was a day in the past? Can you conclusively tell me? You started off saying it was 24, then it could be 30, then you fell silent, knowing you could not prove anything of the sort.

No one is squeezing anything into the bible. Your failure to grasp open mindedness regarding interpretation of evidence (NOT open mindedness on the veracity of the bible) is your primary flaw. The interpretation of the evidence is what is in question for me, SIMPLE.

The bible is OK without extra additions, so tell Ola to stop proving some heptadic jargon that can be easily disproved as the imaginations of a man and tweaked to achieve his pre-determined conclusions. Tell your partner in crime to stop trying to insist on a conclusive age of the earth based on biblical evidence, when the evidence provided is INSUFFICIENT (without assumptions or guess work) to arrive at such an age. Even his quoted sites talk of ballpark figures (essentially a guess) while he is insisting on 6,400 years.

I am not fixated on anything. For the LAST time - the Spirit over the water question is simply ONE of a number of examples of details that cannot be gleaned from the bible. I have not asked you or anyone else to get this information from outside the bible, but to simply ADMIT this information is not there and as such your guesswork is equally wrong.

You cannot tell me what 'lies' I am falling into or not. I have repeated ad nauseam that I believe God can create in six days or six billion days or any duration he wishes, either one does not remove anything from my faith. I've asked you POINTED questions regarding issues in the bible that could be literally interpreted and end up being wrong, but you have avoided responding. This is because you know you have no chance of proving that only a literal interpretation should be taken of everything in the bible.

For a final time, no one is asking for additions to anything. If you cannot accept that your analysis is wrong, then I can't help you.

If you claim the earth is 6,400 years old but God says it is 7,000, you are still WRONG, the 'closeness' is irrelevant. This is the basic import. Don't try to insist on something as biblical when all the facts (or assumptions) on that matter are not all from inside the bible.

OLAADEGBU:

@debosky and the gang,   

I now understand another reason that explains the struggle you guys are going through, and this is due to the gap theories that you subscribe to, which holds a literal view of Genesis, a belief in an extremely long but unidentified age of the earth and an obligation to fit the origin of most of the geologic strata and other geologic evidences between Genesis 1:1 and 1:2.  I realised that some of them even oppose the evolution theory but believe in an ancient origin of the universe, supported by some bible commentaries, such as Dake's, .  Click on the link below to find out the problems with this gap theory and see the consequences of picthing your tent with this theory.

http://www.answersingenesis.org/articles/nab/gap-ruin-reconstruction-theories

You are a hopeless case in this matter. Even in the light of multiple clarifications that I hold no view or theory on this, you continue to attribute belief in a given theory to me? Must you ascribe your baseless and asinine descriptions to me for you to make a point? For the last time, I ask you to stop your quack psychology of trying to assume or decipher what theory I believe in. ASK ME if you want to know what I believe.
I do not hold anything as given, I do not believe in a 'gap theory' or an 'ancient earth' theory. I DON'T KNOW HOW OLD IT IS!! I REFUSE to accept your assumptions/conclusions because they are OBVIOUSLY flawed to me. You can quote as many websites as you want - they are all clueless and cannot DEFINITVELY establish the age of the earth.

I am done with the two of you now - if you are willing to engage in reasoned discourse, I will be available. But if you will insist on claiming to know what 'lies' I believe and what 'theories' I believe even when I've stated that I do not subscribe to any school of thought in that regard, then you are not worth the effort.

Okay, sorry, maybe we started on the wrong foot here, because you keep giving off pheromones that keep giving the impression that you have other possibilities of how creation might [/b]have occurred different from what the Bible clearly says in black or white.
Please help me and others reading this thread to please understand you more clearly:

Hence my questions are these:

1. I need to know what your stand is concerning either Creation or Evolution, no equivocation please!.

2. Is Creation true and Evolution false, or,

3. Is Evolution true and Creation false.

4. If you say Creation is True, then how many days or years or months did you think it took God to start and finish the job.

5. Can you please show me where and how the bible says that a single day (consisting of 1 day-time + 1 night-time) in which man woke up and slept is different from our own single day that we have today (since it seems you have an impression that a single day "[b]might" have meant something else than what we have today) , irrespective of whether we use 24hrs or 30 hours to subdivide that particular day or not.

Hence you answers would determine the next line of action or question,

No2Atheism:

Okay, sorry, maybe we started on the wrong foot here, because you keep giving off pheromones that keep giving the impression that you have other possibilities of how creation [b]might [/b]have occurred different from what the Bible clearly says in black or white.
Please help me and others reading this thread to please understand you more clearly:

Hence my questions are these:

1. I need to know what your stand is concerning either Creation or Evolution, no equivocation please!.

2. Is Creation true and Evolution false, or,

3. Is Evolution true and Creation false.

4. If you say Creation is True, then how many days or years or months did you think it took God to start and finish the job.

1. I have not equivocated for even one SECOND on the first question - I have said NUMEROUS TIMES. I believe GOD CREATED the Universe and everything in it. I DO NOT BELIEVE IN EVOLUTION AS A THEORY!!

2. Evolution is a theory based on evidence+hypotheses of some scientists. I do not care for any theory that denies the existence of God, so NO I don't believe Evolution is true. Creation is my belief, as answered in 1 above.

3. My answer for #2 is sufficient

A note on the previous two questions - I don't see the need for all this hyperventilating over a scientific theory. If it is found wrong, it will be discarded in future. For that reason, I have no beef with evolution in principle, it is simply a likely misguided interpretation of evidence. Any attempts to use it to disprove the existence of God is, of course, clearly wrong and unacceptable to me as a Christian.

4. I DO NOT KNOW!! It matters little to me what the exact span is - it will not dispute the fact that Jesus is the Saviour or that my sins are forgiven through him. It is a piece of history that has no ability to affect my present. Jesus died for me even before the creation of the world, so the exact time frame is of little importance.

5. Can you please show me where and how the bible says that a single day (consisting of 1 day-time + 1 night-time) in which man woke up and slept is different from our own single day that we have today (since it seems you have an impression that a single day "might" have meant something else than what we have today) , irrespective of whether we use 24hrs or 30 hours to subdivide that particular day or not.

Hence you answers would determine the next line of action or question,

5. I cannot show you that, neither do I have to show you that. It is a well known fact that the duration of the day can change as affected by rotation of the earth. let's not even go that far - in climes far removed from the equator, you have clear variations in the length of the daytime and nighttime.

The bible gives NO DEFINITIVE indication of what consisted 'a day' when God was creating - whether it was literally the same day as what we have now, or something markedly different. As long as something in my view cannot be proven DEFINITIVELY one way or the other, holding a FIRM opinion on that matter and attempting to convince others of it is pointless.

Here is the crux of what I am saying: I do not understand why you are hell bent on DEFINING the actual period of time as if it is crucial to Christianity or to your faith. It is IMMATERIAL - It could be longer than days today, or shorter or the same. I have no reason to hold tenaciously to one interpretation, I simply say to those hell bent on forcing one opinion down other's throats - there are other possibilities aside from what you think.

Not other possibilities such as evolution or a world developing without God, but simply a different literal equivalent compared with today.

Let me give one example given by the 'creationists' (whatever that term means) to buttress my point:

'evolutionists' assume that radioactive decay rates are constant, meaning the earth is billions of years old. 'creationists' believe there must have been faster rates of decay during the creation/flood to explain the current evidence. If the 'creationists' can believe a different decay rate, is it impossible to believe in a different rotational speed of the earth (NOTE faster OR slower) that could give a length of day markedly different from today?

Do not get bogged down in these exercises, trying to tie down all the minute details of creation. It is a pointless exercise like I've said. You may as well choose to argue other fine details - did God mould the head before the leg? Or the lip before the nose? All these exercises, including how many hours or not, or whether the days are the same or not, is POINTLESS as it doesn't add to our faith.

Thank you for the response, i would try and go through your response later (i am kinda distracted right now, and not really willing to go through it now, ),

Accept my apologies for any misconceptions,

Later,

Godless Religion
by Henry Morris, Ph.D.

"Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away." (2 Timothy 3:5)

Included in Paul's graphic description of the "perilous" characteristics of the "last days" (not the church age, since the prophesied last days were still future when he wrote of them in his last epistle, 2 Timothy 3:1-3) is this warning concerning the religious leaders of the last days.  They would observe the outward form (church buildings, sacraments, religious services, etc.) of "godliness" (that is, "religion", but would reject its supernatural aspects.  They would desire the trappings of religious professionalism since they would be "lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God" (v. 4).

Such specifications aptly describe the modern world of scientism and liberal theology, which pervades practically all religious denominations and overlaps with all kinds of liberal social movements (women's liberation, gay rights, "New Age" pantheism, and others).  Although these are widely diverse in structure and purpose, they all share one vital feature in common: they reject supernatural Christianity, especially literal creationism. Many liberal preachers give nominal allegiance to the teachings of Christ and the Bible, but they invariably deny the mighty power of God in special creation, as well as the great worldwide miracles of the Bible--the Flood, the dispersion, etc.

This prophecy is not given in Scripture simply as a matter of information.  It contains a warning urgently needed by Bible-believing Christians who are under pressure today to compromise with humanistic liberals on this great doctrine of God's creative power.  Many have accepted the evolutionary system of "ages geology," and this is tragic and dangerous.  Instead of compromising with evolutionary naturalists and religious liberals, as many evangelicals today are inclined to do, Paul warns: "From such turn away!" HMM

Creation hits the bulls eye

A Mathematician, John Heffner puts The theory of evolution to the test, using the human population formula based on the claim that an average birth rate of 2.5 children per family yields and exponential population growth rate. 

Let us put both the Creation and Evolution Models to the test and see how each would fare under the unbiased scrutiny of Mathematics.  Which one is correct, Biblical Creation or Evolution?

The Evolution Model

[list]
[li]About 15 billion years ago the universe exploded into existence.[/li]
[/list]
[list]
[li]About 4.6 billion years ago the earth evolved[/li]
[/list]
[list]
[li]About 3.5 billion years ago life evolved[/li]
[/list]
[list]
[li]About 0.5-1.0 billion years ago humans evolved from ape-like creatures[/li]
[/list]
(By time, chance and natural processes).

Creation Model

[list]
[li]God created the universe and everything in it in 6 (24hr) days, 6,000 years ago[/li]
[/list]
[list]
[li]Sin was the cause of death[/li]
[/list]
[list]
[li]God destroyed the world by a worldwide flood[/li]
[/list]
[list]
[li]Man was created in the image of God[/li]
[/list]

John Heffner put these two theories to test by using the formula; Growth rate = birth rate - death rate.

According to biblical knowledge;

Noah's flood happened about 4,500 years ago, and with 4 couples at the rate of 2.5 children per family will result in 6.5 billion people in the world. (6.5 x 10⁹) 

Creation hits the bulls eye

According to the TOE (Theory of Evolution)

"The evolutionary journey to modern humans ends with the appearance about 500,000 years ago of Homo Sapiens" Biology, Raven and Johnson p.525

That means about 500,000 years of man, at the rate of 2.5 children per family will produce 2.45 x 10⁹⁹⁰ people.  This is more than the number of electrons in the universe!!!, which is in the 10¹³⁰

Watch the whole programme in the videoclips below especially the second link if you can. 

This shows that the Bible is supported by Science or rather that science supports biblical creation and not evolution.

Biblical creation hits the bulls eye

[list]
[li]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=33vCvxYOzYU&feature=related[/li]
[/list]

[list]
[li]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bY3c4NXPiZ4&feature=related[/li]
[/list]

[list]
[li]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=31t1C8K1r24[/li]
[/list]

[list]
[li]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LuYp7GAE9xQ&NR=1[/li]
[/list]

[list]
[li]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yve4wI4oGdY&feature=related[/li]
[/list]

[list]
[li]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PI_FGtNxd6s&feature=related[/li]
[/list]

Evidence of how Biblical creation hit the bulls eye

[flash=600,500]
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=33vCvxYOzYU&hl=en&fs=1&[/flash]

[flash=400,300]
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bY3c4NXPiZ4&hl=en&fs=1&[/flash]

[flash=400,300]
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=31t1C8K1r24&hl=en&fs=1&[/flash]

[list]
[li]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LuYp7GAE9xQ&NR=1[/li]
[/list]

[list]
[li]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yve4wI4oGdY&feature=related[/li]
[/list]

[list]
[li]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PI_FGtNxd6s&feature=related[/li]
[/list]

14 reasons why theist evolutionists, gap theorists, ruin reconstuctionists and long day agers got their facts wrong for accepting that the earth is old.  Check  the weblink below for the refutations.

http://www.icr.org/article/theistic-evolution-day-age-theory/

http://www.icr.org/article/young-age-for-moon-earth/

Read about the mathematical impossibility of evolution here.

http://www.icr.org/article/mathematical-impossibility-evolution/

[flash=600,500]
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G9OazsRfTVQ&hl=en&fs=1&[/flash]

http://www.tangle.com/view_video?viewkey=c7d9831470f883b65e3d

Read how mathematics supports the authencity of the Bible and listen to the resurrection story simultaneously if you can.