Okay, let me tackle recurrent expenditure on depreciation.

I built a road ---------- capital ( it increases output in the long-run, businesses flourish, more tax for me due to expanding businesses). I might toll it (more revenue) etc.



Problem of depreciation- Rain, wear and tear, e.t.c.    You and I know that in the long-run, my revenue will be greater than my cost in maintaining the roads?


No-brainer.

If capital are effectively run, they have ways of maintaining themselves without the government spending so much on recurrent-expenditure.

In advanced countries, most of the budget they spend on recurrent expenditure  are generated from taxes. ( Income-tax, corporation tax, VAT, e.t.c) If there are no infrastructure to support these businesses government tax, where will the money come from?

No-brainer,

what does this last post have to do with what we are talking about
we are discussing whether you should spend more on capital or recurrent expenses in OYO STATE do you have any contribution on that or are you trying to aggravate me?

It does. Accept that your argument is flawed and let's shake hands and go to sleep.

Yes, you should spend more money on Capital expenditure based on the reasons I gave earlier.

Aggravate ke, oti o

you really have not got anything to say. By the way try and develop your communication skills. That "no-brainer" thing is a tiresome and a  "non-starter"  

Okay I will develop my communication skills. I'm in bham too yano.

You know any fine chics you can introduce me 2?

go and marry
for me to introduce you i have to know you 
when i introduce me na so you go fall my hand dey talk no brainer

http://odili.net/news/source/2011/dec/22/22.html

read this post and see what it says as IMO International Maritime Organization training.


Again education is not about academics alone.

We need to invest continuously in our PEOPLE and upgrade our workforce

In Oyo state with a budget of $1 billion dollars a year it would be heartless to say they invest more than half of that on capital projects.

It is like telling a man with 4 children on 500 naira a day that he needs to invest in property.

aribisala0:

http://odili.net/news/source/2011/dec/22/22.html

read this post and see what it says as IMO International Maritime Organization training.


Again education is not about academics alone.

We need to invest continuously in our PEOPLE and upgrade our workforce

In Oyo state with a budget of $1 billion dollars a year it would be heartless to say they invest more than half of that on capital projects.

It is like telling a man with 4 children on 500 naira a day that he needs to invest in property.

Yes Oyo State has to invest in education but you and I know that the basic amenities in Oyo State are desperately begging for attention. We need to upgrade our workforce for work when there isn't work?

Invest in schools and training when there isn't electricity to power labs, roads to transport school children, safe water for them to drink, e.t.c.

Children come from school, have to go 10-miles to go fetch water, hawk with unemployed mums ( due to fewer companies providing employment) after school, e.t.c.


Aribisala, you just defiant for no apparent reason. Basic infrastructure is like a foundation, and that's the more reason Gov has to spend most of it's budget on it, esp in a country where the infrastructures are in dire state.

@Aribisala, I won't be surprised if you end up becoming a prominent politician in Nigeria, and add to the country's problem with your dogmatic and sometimes narrow-minded views.

Give it up, it's a no-brainer, .

aribisala0:

  It is clear you are quite uncouth. It is not perceived it is real
There is a reason why Africans ask young people not to use proverbs with their elders. Often they misuse them or like one who has found a new toy or experienced a novel thrill they misuse them.
Talking to me about real life coming from you is funny really. don't make assumptions about people.

If you believe that I have used a proverb or saying incorrectly, feel free to point out where I've misapplied it. Otherwise, you don't have a point.

Regarding "Africans ask young people". . . well, they are free to apply those rules to young people in general. But not to me. I've been using proverbs and analogies to explain things since I was a little kid, and certainly don't plan on stopping now.

Finally, if you want to play the "elder" card, then you have to back it up with wisdom and solid arguments. Old age alone is no substitute for sharp reasoning.

don't need to play any cards with you.
you play all the cards well.
just keep your advice,reading list and silly similitudes to yourself.
if you track up  you will recall we engaged because you called me out first(jeje l'omo eko n lo )  two times before i decided to respond and when i took you on you started the "go and read i don't have time to educate you routine." Totally ignoring the very simple questions i asked you.
like i said before i find it obnoxious and childish really.
nothing to do with age.
when you started the "in real life" and budgeting stuff I had to call you to order  because you have plenty to learn about that. I believe you giving me those examples of how people arrange their personal finances was not apropos to our discussion and was quite forward regardless of age. I assume you must be young because it would be tragic if you are not and talk to people this way. "You just didn't think hard enough about it." I know for a fact that if we were having a face to face conversation YOU would think very hard before saying that to me
It is patronizing and it is either you totally lack social skills and cannot see that or you are being deliberately obtuse. either way I don't think any of us will profit from this commerce

aribisala0:

gbawe i asked you a question please answer it
if you cannot just accept that you are spouting your opinion which is fine but there are other opposing opinions and there is no absolute certainty on this issue.
it does not have the same kind of exactitude as how much petrol does a rolls royce engine need to make the trip from new york to London.
The best brains are free to espouse their grand ideas and fools will question them
the strenghth of an idea not not derive from who espouses it.
Perhaps you have heard that
A fool can ask more questions than a wise man can answer.
That is why wise men assert very little

My question again;
How do we know that this budget is better than Akala's so far[b] all you have said that I can hold on to is "the best brains say so" You are the [/b]resident latin expert so perhaps you will tell us the latin for that particular variety of fallacy.
So far I have NOT said you are wrong all I have asked you to do is
back up your claims
you huffed and puffed about statistics , i am still waiting.
You are not "trying to dump us in a portmateaus of indicipherability" (apologies to Honourable Patrick Obia,.,.,.) with all this bluster just answer my question as I am not disagreeing with you just asking you to back up your assertions

No disrespect meant. I only mention "best brains" because those who are credited with being very talented at what they do (i.e international economist) have always stated that one of the main problem with African Countries is that we don't look beyond subsidising the activities of Governance. Government and the running of it has become a business in Africa. Indeed it is the biggest business in Nigeria. This is wrong because it is average folks that hold the key to development . Developing them as much as possible will mean thay they in turn will have the capacity to develop the State/Nation.

Translating even only one aspect of the budgets statistics literally, Ajimobi devotes N87.9 billion towards capital spending for 2012. Alao Akala devoted 23.6% of N163 billion towards capital spending i.e N38.46 billion. Come on dude !!! Do we need to carry on this debate? What answer are you looking for from me?

See long turenchi on capital and recurrent, we need infrastructure to drive the economy, let government put more emphasis on infrastructure that will drive the economy (very important) while not neglecting that part of recurrent that will provide a better future for our people. Oyo state should be making far more revenue than it is making, as far as I am concerned, if the infrastructure is in place, those who pass through Ibadan to get to Lagos will stop in Ibadan to do their businesses, same goes for Ogun state, those guys are in a good position to feed off Lagos.

Aribisala, sound argument i must say.is it really possible to separate one from the other even when one depends on the other?

I don't like the caption starting with 'compare' . I hav done away with 6 things in my life. Funny enough, they begin with 'C'.
1.comparing.
2.complaining.
3.criticizing.
4.competing.
5.contending.
6.condemning.

I don't like the caption starting with 'compare' . I hav done away with 6 things in my life. Funny enough, they begin with 'C'.
1.comparing.
2.complaining.
3.criticizing.
4.competing.
5.contending.
6.condemning.

The poster just trying to coerce ppl into believing what he wants them to believe. Such strategy of his can only grab on those who can not really think by themselves.

Just beginning to give a passmark on the basis of a judgement from the periphery can't be acceptable. It depends on his strategy, lets have the break-down. What are the expenses of maintaining public facilities and subsidies?

This guys would re-present and re-fabricate an already existing project so that it can fall under capital expenditure. Anyway, lets assume that the budget is in its proper form but reading out budgets and announcing it on paper has never being a problem in Nigeria. The problem is always implementation of anything, budget, policy, regulations, law e.t.c so should we be discussing this?

@Gbawe


Thanks very much for your wonderful,honest and unbiased analysis at all time.I respect you a lot Sir.I'm closely watching all our (ACN) governors' plans and policies and I must confess that,so far,so good compared to the 'shite' we've been having.I'm really impressed.Unlikemost states,I've noticed three major common positive things in their budgets which are 1)an increase in capital exp and decrease in re-current exp 2)emphasies to rigorously increase IGR 3)people focused
policies i.e clamouring for Private-Public investments,youth employment,power,good education,security etc.

Anvaller:

The poster just trying to coerce ppl into believing what he wants them to believe. Such strategy of his can only grab on those who can not really think by themselves.

Just beginning to give a passmark on the basis of a judgement from the periphery can't be acceptable. It depends on his strategy, lets have the break-down. What are the expenses of maintaining public facilities and subsidies?

This guys would re-present and re-fabricate an already existing project so that it can fall under capital expenditure. Anyway, lets assume that the budget is in its proper form but reading out budgets and announcing it on paper has never being a problem in Nigeria. The problem is always implementation of anything,  budget, policy, regulations, law e.t.c so should we be discussing this?

You are not the first to say this and I think , like others , you formed your opinion emotionally. What you write below , for example, is ridiculous and demonstrates a willingness for pandering to negativity :

This guys would re-present and re-fabricate an already existing project so that it can fall under capital expenditure.

If all we want to do is think the worst about everything and everyone, why bother coming to this website when you have concluded nothing can improve for our nation and generalized that every administrator is a scammer out to con Nigerians?

All of you talking about ""Gbawe's opinion" should answer this question. Going by this budget alone (without dabbling in conjectures, premonitions of failure, negativity, etc) can the folks of Oyo not be optimistic that , statistically and fiscally, this is a budget likely to bring far more development than that Alao Akala supplied a year earlier? 

Do we not , at least on paper, have a budget far superior to that of 2011?

I don't get Nigerians and our desire to be negative about everything . Budgets are scrutinized minutely worldwide. Generally, folks worldwide inspect a budget on its own merit and in comparison to previous budget.  They don't say outlandishly, like a Nigerian would, that "this guys would re-present and re-fabricate an already existing project so that it can fall under capital expenditure". I don't mind folks expressing reservation over implementation but trying to claim my enthusiasm for this budget is an attempt "to only grab on those who can not really think by themselves" is plain silly and mischievous because those who are objective and able to look at issues critically and dispassionately would indeed admit that the 2012 budget of Oyo is a vast improvement over the 2011 budget and that is something for progressive folks to be optimistic about. Unless you can show otherwise conclusively , from an economic and fiscal viewpoint, then I would suggest you leave the focus on individuals and mischief aside. Look at the budget and speak on that. I have not said Oyo will become Dubai based on this budget.

Yes its absolutely wonderful to devote more money to capital projects while keeping your recurrent ex.at the barest minimum but it is NOT a rule.you cant tell me a state with a 60,40 ratio in favour of capital ex. will necessarily do better than another with that ratio in favour of recurrent ex especially with strict fiscal discipline.

gbawe the proportion is not the key issue but what is the total budget,
just one billion USD equivalent

if you say you need to spend 25 % of your personal income on children education
we can see that 25% of your income if you are

Dangote =250 000 000 000 or more
is different from

Mikel Obi = 250 000 000 naira
and different from

25% of 18000 naira if you are on minimum wage =54000 naira a year

In the case of the latter we will observe two things
1.54000 is not really going to purchase any meaningful education if the guy has two kids
2.he probably cannot afford to spend even that

Oyo state with a budget of $1 billion and a population of 6 million is very similar to the minimum wage scenario with the total projected revenue per capita working out at 26666 Naira per annum  per capita
The corresponding figure for the british government is budget £697 billion/population 60 million = £11616 = 2.9 million naira per annum per capita

In this  Oyo state situation to suggest that somehow spending more on capital is better than recurrent expenditure seems dubious to me and i would need a lot of convincing.
Sadly you are unable to address the simple question I asked you.
Instead of following your own advice and focussing on statistics you are apppealing to sentiment and saying surely we must see it is a better budget than last year's . No we do NOT.Demonstrate it. If you are sincere it would come as a rude shock to you that you are far from the dispassionate,objective guy you want to project yourself to be but just another partisan ideologue

please do not "come on dude" me . Put up a coherent argument to back up your claim

The answer i am looking for from you is this
"BEST BRAINS" in football will swear by 4 4 2 others will say no 3 5 2 or 4 5 1 .
what that tells me is there is no certainty or Ona kan o w'oja as my people say. There is more than one road to the market so if you do NOT have evidence to the contrary you must accept that there is no absolute certainty on this subject

Gbawe:


Do we not , at least on paper, have a budget far superior to that of 2011?

I don't get Nigerians and our desire to be negative about everything . Budgets are scrutinized minutely worldwide. Generally, folks worldwide inspect a budget on its own merit and in comparison to previous budget.  They don't say outlandishly, like a Nigerian would, that "this guys would re-present and re-fabricate an already existing project so that it can fall under capital expenditure". I don't mind folks expressing reservation over implementation but trying to claim my enthusiasm for this budget is an attempt "to only grab on those who can not really think by themselves" is plain silly and mischievous because those who are objective and able to look at issues critically and dispassionately would indeed admit that the 2012 budget of Oyo is a vast improvement over the 2011 budget and that is something for progressive folks to be optimistic about. Unless you can show otherwise conclusively , from an economic and fiscal viewpoint, then I would suggest you leave the focus on individuals and mischief aside. Look at the budget and speak on that. I have not said Oyo will become Dubai based on this budget.

desperate stuff
I remember a certain lecture YOU gave about AD HOMINEM [/b]and as is your wont you posted a link defining hominem
Funny how you are doing the same thing here
HERE your task is simple;
you have CLAIMED this is a better budget,
Just put together a coherent discourse  to demontrate this without calling "dissidents" names and oh yes you said we should focus on statistics.
we are waiting??
Gbawe looks at issues critically and dispassionately as do all who agree with him.
Those who don't  are silly and mischievous,in short, they are OBOTE MEN
Regarding your invitation to prove otherwise that is funny!
since you love Latin so much here is some for you
You said this is an improvement on last year's budget . THE PROPOSITION
[b]semper praesumitur pro negante
The presumption is ALWAYS in the negative and this is the basis of what is now known as the Null Hypothesis
Per rerum naturam, factum negantis nulla probatio est.
It is the nature of things that a person who denies a fact is not bound to give proof.
Thus
Onus Probandi
The burden of proof is on he who asserts
The position from which one must always start is that the proposition (the theory or the hypothesis) is, to start with, false and must be proven to be true.
It is impossible to prove a negative e.g to prove there are no little green men on the moon
You assert your proposition as stated it is an improvement. PROVE IT

Ei incumbit probatio qui dicit, non qui negat
He who asserts must prove not he who denies

aribisala0:

desperate stuff
I remember a certain lecture YOU gave about AD HOMINEM [/b]and as is your wont you posted a link defining hominem
Funny how you are doing the same thing here
HERE your task is simple;
you have CLAIMED this is a better budget,
Just put together a coherent discourse  to demontrate this without calling "dissidents" names and oh yes you said we should focus on statistics.
we are waiting??
Gbawe looks at issues critically and dispassionately as do all who agree with him.
Those who don't  are silly and mischievous,in short, they are OBOTE MEN
Regarding your invitation to prove otherwise that is funny!
since you love Latin so much here is some for you
You said this is an improvement on last year's budget . THE PROPOSITION
[b]semper praesumitur pro negante
The presumption is ALWAYS in the negative and this is the basis of what is now known as the Null Hypothesis
Per rerum naturam, factum negantis nulla probatio est.
It is the nature of things that a person who denies a fact is not bound to give proof.
Thus
Onus Probandi
The burden of proof is on he who asserts
The position from which one must always start is that the proposition (the theory or the hypothesis) is, to start with, false and must be proven to be true.
It is impossible to prove a negative e.g to prove there are no little green men on the moon
You assert your proposition as stated it is an improvement. PROVE IT

Ei incumbit probatio qui dicit, non qui negat
He who asserts must prove not he who denies

What are you talking about ? This is why, ordinarily, I don't bother with you. Along the way in any debate your pretense of neutrality and decorum will fade eventually .  Did you not note what he wrote to ellicit that response from me i.e. "The poster just trying to coerce ppl into believing what he wants them to believe. Such strategy of his can only grab on those who can not really think by themselves". He pretty much accused me of trying to brainwash folks yet I am surprised you do not see that since he is on your side of the fence. It is my response you will find fault with. Read again and you will see I am telling him to respond with facts instead of attacking my person with mischief. As for everything else, forget it. You win . I am not interested in any back and forth with you. You are totally correct.

i am not correct because i have no position and i am not on the other side or on any side.
it is a common reflex to see those who question you as adversaries.
i am just a champion of rational thinking.
i have already said earlier that this is a political subject on which it is legitimate to have opinions but i don't believe any is right or wrong or backed up by science as you assert. just like football formations 442 451 or 352 
i would like to be persuaded that your claim is true.
i don't think you are brainwashing anyone and that remark deserved no riposte,really.

at every turn i have been at pains to point out my position AD NAUSEUM

ona kan o woja There is more than one road to the market

so where you get this -abandon decorum,., etc is a mystery except it shows that when you are challenged you throw your toys out of the pram and start sulking
it has been very clear that I am not on any side I repeat back up YOUR claims or accept that they are unproven. I am not saying they are FALSE just UNPROVEN

^^^Common sense dictates that for a low income economy, where infrastructural provision is central to development, you place a greater emphasis on your capital expenditure to recurrent expenditure.
You play a 4-5-1 formation when you know you are a weaker team.

common sense.

does it matter what your income is  or you just ignore that and follow common sense.

It i have two children and earn 600 naira a day should we eat or pay school fees
what does common sense say. afterall education is central to eradicating poverty


Generally the common sense thing is an alibi
a non- argument .


Since common sense will not speak for herself we have to rely on second hand information.
i think
deploying a greater proportion of resources to infrastructure will make sense in some cases  but not all
in OYO state let us imagine 4 situations bearing in mind a population of just under 6 million people

1.annual budget of 100 million naira
2. annual budget of 1 billion naira
3. annual budget of 100 billion naira
4. annual budget of 10 trillion naira

I think these scenarios are materially different and we cannot apply the same formula in ALL cases
if you play 4 -5 -1 you will have social unresk,Boko haram who will just blow up any infrastructure you build. It is not yam to break out ot poverty it takes great minds and hard work

Aribisala

An infrastructure poor country such as Nigeria should have a greater proportion of budget as Capital expenditure. The ratio of capital expenditure to recurring expenditure in any nation is determined by the state of the infrastructure in that country. There is no rule that capital expenditure must be greater than recurrent expenditure or vice versa. It all depends on the current state of infrastructure in any place. For instance, China and Brazil are spending a lot on capital projects at the moment and in a few years time, will spend less on capital projects. Contrast that with the US that spent a lot on capital projects in the last 50 years and the said infrastructure is decaying; the US will have to spend more on capital projects in the coming years if it is to have the same level of infrastructural development it has had in the last 50-60 years.

How can you spend more on education when classrooms, schools, and facilities are bad? Can you attract top teaching talents to a place by just paying them excellent salaries? Will the teachers not ply bad roads, sit in uninspiring classrooms, have no light or internet to do research? How does a teacher motivate students to be the best they can be when the said students will also risk their lives on bad roads, have no electricity to study, etc? It is not possible to spend more on recurrent expenditure than capital expenditure without wasting a huge proportion of the recurrent expenditure. Before Nigeria gets to a place where recurrent expenditure is greater than capital expenditure, it must first invest heavily in capital projects.

during the time of wole soyinka ,okigbo , ojukwu we had better teaching talent.Cuba has one of the best healthcare systems in the world and a higher life expectancy that the US with a huge infrastructure deficit.
i tend not to believe everything I am told

it [b]all [/b]depends on the current state of infrastructure.
I hear everything you say.
clearly it is your opinion since you provide no evidence to give it a higher status.
i respect your  opinion but i am not convinced.
I disagree with the ALL as bolded.
i believe it depends more on income/revenue than on anything else. if you do not have money you don't build infrastructure.
it does not matter how you get the money but you must get it to start with
Not having money in this case is not different from having VERY LITTLE money.
It is like the guy who wants to build his own house but is never able to save money and so pays rent till he dies.Should he save up and sleep on the street??

all the verbiage about the benefits or otherwise of infrastructure are wasted on me . It is trite.
what is important is do you have the money .?

Nobody WILL EVER win this argument, let me just keep watching at the economic expert we have in the house. I guess he (they) are jack of all trades but master of NONE.

aribisala0:

it all [/b]depends on the current state of infrastructure.
I hear everything you say.
clearly it is your opinion since you provide no evidence to give it a higher status.
i respect your  opinion but i am not convinced.
I disagree with the ALL as bolded.
[b]i believe it depends more on income/revenue than on anything else. if you do not have money you don't build infrastructure.

Not having money in this case is not different from having VERY LITTLE money

But no governments has the money; governments must decide on what society needs (infrastructure, wages, defense, welfare) and then seek to find the revenue through a combination of taxes and revenues. When a government has more than it needs, it taxes its citizens and or saves more. When governments are unable to meet their budgetary obligations, they seek to raise funds from the capital markets, the IMF/WB, and other nations through partnerships. If a government waits until it has the money to embark on projects, it will never complete a project.

You are free to disagree with my post; that is the beauty of debate.

good but some governments have more than others or a society with enough industry to generate what it needs.
"having" money merely refers to the ability to raise it. it does not matter how
If your revenue stream is next to zero you will struggle to maintain social order and in turn struggle to attract external funds.
If you study the thread of this debate you will note tthat others like you have expressed the same opinion
I merely question it and the onus is on YOU to provide EVIDENCE to justify this "GREATER PROPORTIONALITY" claim otherwise you might as well be arguing that Patience Jonathan is better looking than Patricia Etteh
fascinating but a waste of time.
Once again there is no EVIDENCE for your claim. If you provide evidence I will agree with you
i have not disagreed with your post. I disagreed with a part of it i.e. your claim that it depend solely on the state of infrastructure  ignoring the need to raise funds.
why do we have a huge deficit if it was so easy to raise money.?
i am not disagreeing just asking you to back up your claims. I understand the tendency to perceive this as a disagreement

emiye:

^^^Common sense dictates that for a low income economy, where infrastructural provision is central to development, you place a greater emphasis on your capital expenditure to recurrent expenditure.
You play a 4-5-1 formation when you know you are a weaker team.

Did you see the boldened low income economy?

aribisala0:

common sense.

does it matter what your income [/b]is  or you just ignore that and follow common sense.

It i have two children and earn 600 naira a day should we eat or pay school fees
what does common sense say. afterall education is central to eradicating poverty


Generally the common sense thing is an alibi
a non- argument .


Since common sense will not speak for herself we have to rely on second hand information.
i think
deploying a greater proportion of resources to infrastructure will make sense in [b]some cases  but not all
in OYO state let us imagine 4 situations bearing in mind a population of just under 6 million people

1.annual budget of 100 million naira
2. annual budget of 1 billion naira
3. annual budget of 100 billion naira
4. annual budget of 10 trillion naira

I think these scenarios are materially different and we cannot apply the same formula in ALL cases
if you play 4 -5 -1 you will have social unresk,Boko haram who will just blow up any infrastructure you build. It is not yam to break out ot poverty it takes great minds and hard work