NOWADAYS,we see women preaching on the altar,some women are even allowed to be a pastor,do you think this is reasonable enough in line with Bible Standards?

its totally wrong and unacceptable, infact when i see female pastors,bishop mrs and deaconnesses i get so discouraged as to how christendom has abused Gods spiritual arrangement, i mean after these pastors have read 1corinthians 14:33-35, and 1timothy 2:11-13 why do they still presumpteously appoint females to teach,stand on d pulpit to teach a crowd, i mean i wonder if all the pastors have eye problems and dirts in there ear drums , why cant they for once apply and obey theocratic order, infact any church that has bishop mrs,deaconneses and pastor mrs is not a church of christ, because God is not a God of disorderliness but of arrangement, even d qualifications @ 1timothy3:1-16 for bishops and deacons are meant for only men, but today women too are struglin for these offices, its just like sayin that women durin d isrealite days could also serve as priests and under-priests in Gods temple, that will be an abormination, and thats exactly d same wit women runnin around with there big caps and gele's answerin pastor mrs and deaconesses, crasy!!!!

about to subscribe

God can use anybody, anything at any point in time. He is sovereign, you cannot say, this is how you want him to move. Paul was speaking to women that were not walking in the doctrine of the Apostle, the same new testament, Acts2:17-18, you will see how God promised to pour his spirit on all flesh, it says "your daughters shall prophecy". You see, there are principles for interpretation of the scriptures. You do not interpret scripture on the surface like that, you need to go deep in prayer and revelations. God bless you. God2man.

God2man:

God can use anybody, anything at any point in time. He is sovereign, you cannot say, this is how you want him to move. Paul was speaking to women that were not walking in the doctrine of the Apostle, the same new testament, Acts2:17-18, you will see how God promised to pour his spirit on all flesh, it says "your daughters shall prophecy". You see, there are principles for interpretation of the scriptures. You do not interpret scripture on the surface like that, you need to go deep in prayer and revelations. God bless you. God2man.

What deep revelation?just to understand simple arrangements outlined in d bible now needs extra prayer, women were allowed to preach to people outside, but when it comes to d church its a tabboo for a woman to be a leader, i mean u jus quoted acts, please flip thru d pages of d NT from matthew to revelation to see if u'l find d word deaconness, d bible is not a magic book were u need so much prayer to understand, this is not a prophecy were we need deeper insight to grasp d meaning, this is a standard set by Jesus on how his congregation should be run, women are to keep silent, all women, they are not to teach or exercise authority a man in d church, all those men who sit down to listen to a pastor mrs wen she steps on d pullpit are all fools, mary,tabitha,peters wife,lydia,prisca, all these faithful women never served as deaconesses, it was forbiden and still forbidden accordin to d scripture,

Women do not have the right to be a pastor or a leader in a church because God himself says in his word(Bible) in the account of 1cor.14:34,35 that women should be silent in the congregration,and also it is a shame for a woman to be ministering in the church,so why are there still pastor mrs,deaconess,e.t.c or are they just flattering what is in the bible or considering it as an old fashioned book? NO.that shouldn't be so .the bible is a perfect gift from God for setting things straight and also for disciline in righteousness,so why shouldn't we follow what is in the bible?

Women do not have the right to be a pastor or a leader in a church because God himself says in his word(Bible) in the account of 1cor.14:34,35 that women should be silent in the congregration,and also it is a shame for a woman to be ministering in the church,so why are there still pastor mrs,deaconess,e.t.c or are they just flattering what is in the bible or considering it as an old fashioned book? NO.that shouldn't be so .the bible is a perfect gift from God for setting things straight and also for disciline in righteousness,so why shouldn't we follow what is in the bible?

Women do not have the right to be a pastor or a leader in a church because God himself says in his word(Bible) in the account of 1cor.14:34,35 that women should be silent in the congregration,and also it is a shame for a woman to be ministering in the church,so why are there still pastor mrs,deaconess,e.t.c or are they just flattering what is in the bible or considering it as an old fashioned book? NO.that shouldn't be so .the bible is a perfect gift from God for setting things straight and also for disciline in righteousness,so why shouldn't we follow what is in the bible?

Women do not have the right to be a pastor or a leader in a church because God himself says in his word(Bible) in the account of 1cor.14:34,35 that women should be silent in the congregration,and also it is a shame for a woman to be ministering in the church,so why are there still pastor mrs,deaconess,e.t.c or are they just flattering what is in the bible or considering it as an old fashioned book? NO.that shouldn't be so .the bible is a perfect gift from God for setting things straight and also for disciline in righteousness,so why shouldn't we follow what is in the bible?

shesco:

Women do not have the right to be a pastor or a leader in a church because God himself says in his word(Bible) in the account of 1cor.14:34,35 that women should be silent in the congregration,and also it is a shame for a woman to be ministering in the church,so why are there still pastor mrs,deaconess,e.t.c or are they just flattering what is in the bible or considering it as an old fashioned book? NO.that shouldn't be so .the bible is a perfect gift from God for setting things straight and also for disciline in righteousness,so why shouldn't we follow what is in the bible?

Thanks bro!!! These silly women think they can just open their mouths and talk when they are supposed to remain silent and cook in the kitchen. Even God in his infinite wisdom knows women ain't poo. Matter of fact, we should start stoning them again. Maybe they will learn.

In like manner also, that women adorn themselves in modest apparel, with shamefacedness and sobriety; not with braided hair, or gold, or pearls, or costly array;.
1 Matthew 2:9

You females hear that? God said wipe that pancake off your face before you get it smacked off. Finally , ShutTheFckUp!!!

2:12 But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.

I have gone through all the post and like what you guys have said so far, But i haven't read anything from the lady. Well in my own point of few i think everything has been turn upside down and maybe cos some people have turn church into a business places and the is a co investors so they believe they have equal right or some right too as a share holder.Make God help us oo

Joel2:28 and it shall come to pass afterward, that i will pour out my spirit upon all flesh, ur sons and ur daughter shall prophesy, ur old men shall dream dreams, ur young men shall see visions. Now do you know there.deferents between a prophet and some who prophesy? Every prophet can prophesy and everyone who prophesy is not a prophet an evangelist can prophesy a pastor can prophesy every Christian can prophesy but they are not a prophet. So a prophet is an office. A man or woman who is prophesying is speaking the word of God on the life of someone with authority from the word of God, which may eventually come to pass while a prophet is one who hear from God directly and God gave him a massage. If i speaks a word in the life of a person using the bible or quoting from the scripture, and if that things comes to pass, does that me a prophet? A woman can do the works of an evangelist winning souls for the kingdom, and bring them to the church, and a shepherd will take over from there. I believe that's is the way it has been programmed from the beginning let's see Esther 2:17 and the king love Esther above all woman and she obtain grace and favor in his sight more than all the virgins so that he set the royal crown upon her head and made her queen instead of vashti. Now let's us also judges 4:4 And Deborah a PROPHETES, the wife of lapidoth, she judge isreal at that time.now the bible is very clear about these, there was a time when isreal has no king. And there was war at that time round about then so God decided to look for someone that fear God who will deliver isreal from their enemies he decided to use Deborah. Deborah was a judge while Esther was a queen, Deborah and Esther were in a royal office they does not occupies a celestial office. One was a judge while the other one was a queen. They are never a priest. According to the settings no woman will venture that area.that will be considered as an abomination, it can ev en leads to one been stone, no isrealite woman will ever tried that. I over heard people mentioning Esther and Deborah and others God is a God of yesterday, today and forever, he never change. The bible says the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom. Apostle paul is an anointed man of God he wrote most of the new.testament and we also follow all his teaching why can't we also follow this one, if we are truly a God fearing Christians 1 cor 12: 28 and he sets some in church,..... Ephesiens 4:12 for the perfecting of the saint, for the works of the ministry..... The bible does not contradict its self, people are the ones who are contradicting themselves. So is not a must that we must use all those gift in the church.... 1 cor14:33-38 for God is not the author of confusion, but of peace as in all churches of the saint.let's ur woman keep quiet in the church...... If any man think himself to be a prophet , or spiritual, let him acknowledge that the thing i write is a commandments of the lord. But if any man be ignorant let him be ignorant. Obedient is better than sac rice and rebellion is worst than the sin of witchcraft. Similarly if paul is referring to the women of corinth, it means the bible is not written because of us. And that will amount to manipulation of the bible.finally proverb 31: 10-30 who can find a virtuous woman?...... She stretch out her hand to the poor, yea, she reach forth her hands to the needy....... Favor is deceitful and beauty is vain, but a woman that fear the Lord she shall be praise.john 14:15 If you love me keep my commandments

@

@God2man:

God can use anybody, anything at any point in time. He is sovereign, you cannot say, this is how you want him to move. Paul was speaking to women that were not walking in the doctrine of the Apostle, the same new testament, Acts2:17-18, you will see how God promised to pour his spirit on all flesh, it says "your daughters shall prophecy". You see, there are principles for interpretation of the scriptures. You do not interpret scripture on the surface like that, you need to go deep in prayer and revelations. God bless you. .

F-R-A-U-D!

Is it good or possible for man to atend in a church that woman is the pastor or bishop.etc?

Is it good for woman to be a pastor in the church of God?

As a woman myself, I would say that a church where a woman is a pastor or bishop is "out of God's divine order". I would not attend it.

There is a reason why God has this following order in the family which also shoild be the pattern in the church:
Christ
Godly man
Godly woman

Just a few scriptures....

Genesis 2:18 (KJV)
1 Corinthians 11:3-12 (KJV)
Ephesians 5:22-23 (KJV)


The responsibility falls on the man first...which is why Adam was who God called first, although it was Eve who was seduced and deceived and caused sin to occur.
A man that sits under a woman in a pastoral role in a church setting relinquishes the God-given authority given to him. Instead of him covering the woman, she assumes the head-ship role in the relationship..which is out of order.
We can see the consequences of a role-reversal of God's divine order by the example of King Ahab and Queen Jezebel... (1 Kings 16:29 KJV-the first introduction of the wicked pair).
Follow the story to see how it ends.
Now let me be balanced here.
God's divine order is not to be confused with some abusive patriarchal cultural norms, that occur in many developing countries.. cough...Nigeria...cough...sorry folks but it's true.
A woman has a voice, but she is not to disrespect or usurp power from the man.
Godly men are not to abuse their authority.

When God's divine order (inside and outside of church) is followed (by both individuals), peace and order reigns.

genesis6:
Is it good or possible for man to atend in a church that woman is the pastor or bishop.etc?

Is it good for woman to be a pastor in the church of God?

Eviana:
As a woman myself, I would say that a church where a woman is a pastor or bishop is "out of God's divine order". I would not attend it.

There is a reason why God has this following order in the family which also shoild be the pattern in the church:
Christ
Godly man
Godly woman

Just a few scriptures....

Genesis 2:18 (KJV)
1 Corinthians 11:3-12 (KJV)
Ephesians 5:22-23 (KJV)


The responsibility falls on the man first...which is why Adam was who God called first, although it was Eve who was seduced and deceived and caused sin to occur.
A man that sits under a woman in a pastoral role in a church setting relinquishes the God-given authority given to him. Instead of him covering the woman, she assumes the head-ship role in the relationship..which is out of order.
We can see the consequences of a role-reversal of God's divine order by the example of King Ahab and Queen Jezebel... (1 Kings 16:29 KJV-the first introduction of the wicked pair).
Follow the story to see how it ends.
Now let me be balanced here.
God's divine order is not to be confused with some abusive patriarchal cultural norms, that occur in many developing countries.. cough...Nigeria...cough...sorry folks but it's true.
A woman has a voice, but she is not to disrespect or usurp power from the man.
Godly men are not to abuse their authority.

When God's divine order (inside and outside of church) is followed (by both individuals), peace and order reigns.

No, Eviana. As a woman yourself, you should learn how to pray fervently and ask God questions on important issues like this, hearing clearly from Him and not do what many males usually do - listening to their heads and not their hearts and spirit else doctrines of devils prevents you from answering God's pastoral call on your life.
In the family, the man is the undisputed head of the home. But when it comes to ministry, it is according to calling and gifting. Go and read about the founder and G.O. of foursquare Bible church. Remember Joyce Meyer, Paula White and a host of others called by God to pastor churches. Jezebel shouldn't be your choice example of a female leader as much as all the sinful kings of Israel.
In the early church, women were still in most cultures suppressed and there were many things they couldn't be used by God to do. Not today, however. There is more freedom of expression for them and God can make greater use of them by anointing them to handle certain roles fitting for the weaker vessel. Modern form of pastoring is one of such. But God will not normally give them very laborious ministerial roles which are more suited to the male gender.
This subject was sufficiently dealt with on another thread. Here are a few of my excerpts from it.

...the scriptures are full of divine parables and if we always take them literally and without the Holy Spirit's guidance,we end up with false doctrines and host of confusion leading toeven our own condemnation(Jam3:1, Matt5:19, 2Pet2:1-2, 1Tim1:3-7). If you're willing to take my advice, I always advise believers to quit trying to teach scriptures especially contentious themes that seemingly disagree with the basic principles of Christ. Rather invest in spiritual growth(which is all that really counts in eternity) through knowing the Holy Spirit, obeying God and encountering Him on deeper levels continuously and He will reveal Himself to us and whatever needs to be known in scriptures in due time and the right order.
I'll give you a chance to save this thread, otherwise please close it down as a mistake for the sake of the innocent lambs, especially females. If you can answer my question unequivocally, then we'll move on to what next. But if you can't, then you have only misunderstood this scripture and should shut down this thread.
So here goes: If you truly believe the women being referred to here in 1Tim:11-12 are the literal female gender around us, then how did God manage to integrate childbirth into their salvation programme, (v15)? Please also include in explanation what God will do about the barren women who will never give birth as well as all celibate females and even the male gender who will all never know childbirth. I could easily tell you the interpretations of Paul's parables here but as Muttley knows well, I usually avoid raising questions. Seeing you and most here have no foundation for ministerial order in Christ, I'll avoid bringing it up.
The Holy Spirit is anointing so many women today into the pastoral office not as exceptions or special cases but as a norm under Christ, in which there is neither male nor female, even where spiritually capable men are, friend. Don't frustrate their blessed souls because of your misconception of scriptures, which the Spirit never revealed to you.

Also

....So it's still not obvious to you that Paul is speaking in parables which the early church clearly understood, but unfortunately most in our generation don't. You'll probably also claim that the woman in Rev12 was a literal woman or that the Lord meant in Jon16:21-22 that the apostles were all women. And yes, the dress code there is also very figurative with each detail having its spiritual parallel, in case you dont know. Solite, it's such a clumsy defence you have given to say that literal childbirth is part of how God saves the woman without considering the sisters who will never give birth on earth. I thought you also believed in salvation by solely grace but here you are adding childbirth exclusive of Christ's finished works, for women. According to you, His salvation plan is gender specific. Even your conscience alone should tell you that an unbelieving lady also gives birth and will never be saved by that. And FYI, I didn't say the text doesn't apply to the modern woman. I said it doesnt apply here to any literal female either in those days or now.
The Holy Spirit can never go against His word but you can by just misconstruing it and not depending on Him to help you understand. Solite, since you failed to give a valid rational answer to my question, it's not too late to close down this thread or else you have all the time in the world to try again. Go read Rom16:7 while you're at it and behold the name of the female apostle who was not only an apostle but a chief apostle, in Christ before Paul.

To be contd.

Cc: Bodydialect57

genesis6:
Is it good or possible for man to atend in a church that woman is the pastor or bishop.etc?

Is it good for woman to be a pastor in the church of God?

Eviana:
As a woman myself, I would say that a church where a woman is a pastor or bishop is "out of God's divine order". I would not attend it.

There is a reason why God has this following order in the family which also shoild be the pattern in the church:
Christ
Godly man
Godly woman

Just a few scriptures....

Genesis 2:18 (KJV)
1 Corinthians 11:3-12 (KJV)
Ephesians 5:22-23 (KJV)


The responsibility falls on the man first...which is why Adam was who God called first, although it was Eve who was seduced and deceived and caused sin to occur.
A man that sits under a woman in a pastoral role in a church setting relinquishes the God-given authority given to him. Instead of him covering the woman, she assumes the head-ship role in the relationship..which is out of order.
We can see the consequences of a role-reversal of God's divine order by the example of King Ahab and Queen Jezebel... (1 Kings 16:29 KJV-the first introduction of the wicked pair).
Follow the story to see how it ends.
Now let me be balanced here.
God's divine order is not to be confused with some abusive patriarchal cultural norms, that occur in many developing countries.. cough...Nigeria...cough...sorry folks but it's true.
A woman has a voice, but she is not to disrespect or usurp power from the man.
Godly men are not to abuse their authority.

When God's divine order (inside and outside of church) is followed (by both individuals), peace and order reigns.

Contd.
Another excerpt from same thread.

....but the humility God really wants from our generation of christians is to understand our deprivation of knowledge of doctrine and humbly depend primarily on the leading of the Spirit for our walk and His illumination to us of doctrine/scriptures, rather than trying to take scripture at facevalue with our blurred intellect, even at the times our understanding obviously goes against the principles of Christ, which always leads to false doctrines and heresy.
1. Have you considered our deprivation in scriptures in that all we use today for NT doctrine is the epistles written to address matters arising for those who were ALREADY taught by speech the doctrine, of which none of us was present in the classes. Maybe if you were, you would have understood like everyone whom Paul wrote to clearly did(because they were taught), the concepts of spiritual womanhood and manhood, and its application in church administration, the seven degrees of spiritual womanhood( Is 4:1), the spiritual apparels of womanhood (Is 4:1, 1Tim2:12) and how the spiritual woman is saved by spiritual childbirth (1Tim2:15, Rev12:13-16), and you would even see that you yourself are among the women referred to in Paul's parable. Do you naively think we have every single thing that was taught by speech to early believers or was there ever a time that any of the apostles wrote an epistle to outline all of the doctrine of Christ for future generations?
Three specific times in all his epistles, Paul spoke of church administration consistently using the same figure parable of spiritual womanhood and manhood. But we, being ignorant of what he had taught the churches about these spiritual figures, took the figurative and applied it literally resulting in this false doctrine here. When the Lord took flesh and blood and crucified it and brought forth the risen new creation, he broke all barriers between all flesh and blood, whether gender, race, societal status and united us on the front of our equal sharing in flesh and blood into the inheritance(Gifts and all) in the new creation(Gal3:28). Stop belittling His sacrifice, solite. All flesh and blood is EQUALLY unfit for Christ Gifts except by Grace, and male and female have the very same sinful tendencies, so quit with all that women tendencies blah, blah. If the gentile and Jews can hold positions in Christ alike, so can male and female according to Gal 3:28.

2. Again, don't you know that by the mouth of 2 or 3 witnesses shall spiritual matters be established alone(Deut 17:6, 19:15, 1Cor14:29). Learn this today, you should never bring forth a doctrine without 2 or 3 witnesses, because anything God intended we know, he gave it more than one witness. Now tell us Solite, apart from Paul, do you see any single person saying that females should not hold certain ministerial roles. No. Because, it is not in Christian doctrine to share Christ and his gifts according to gender but only through faith/grace(Rom12:6, 1Pet4:10) and Paul himself never had the thought of gender-specific ministry. We only misunderstood his encoded parable.

3. Since you think to take all scripture literally, I hope you don't like Muttley suggested, go around kissing our sisters with literal holy kisses because it is written. I also hope you haven't literally cut off your right hand or right eye whenever it looked at wrong images because God said so.
I asked you a simple question and you failed woefully in your attempt to answer. How can the woman in 1Tim2:15 be a literal female, when this woman's salvation is through childbirth. What happens to barren or celibate women. What about unbelieving females who also give birth, will they be saved or partake in Christ's work for making babies, not to mention those out of wedlock. You gave a clumsy and comical answer that could pass for nairaland joke of the year- that women, having by nature, controlling tendencies over men(like we men don't. Which is also a big lie in many cases of women I've met, who are rather too submissive), will be saved from that when they give birth...my!, my!. Muttley could help us with a good meme for that. There isn't even a single dominant woman who became submissive after childbirth. My question was just to help all see that this was a parable of Paul.
Or again, would you say Paul is delegating prayer to literal men (excluding women) and dresscodes to literal women. So that prayer is now gender specific? Solite, stop bothering women whom God is calling to pastor with your spiritual ignorance.

On the text, you quoted. Another excerpt.

This is also why you have a challenge with Paul's words in 1Cor14:35, but you wouldn't have if you saw in v34"...as also says the Law..." and the law is always the basis of such injunctions Paul gave(Also in 1Cor11, which is based on the lawof a woman shaving her head when no more under her husband and covering her head once under a man). Now slow down and read Paul's letters/acts and you would find him fighting tooth and toenail with anyone who tried to impose the traditional/literal/natural applications of the law as enemies of Christ's cross and dogs(Php3:2,18) and never bringing such a yoke on the churches(Gal3:10). So tell me, why would you think Paul would hypocritically put a literal/traditional application of the law stated in v34 on the churches. Because you missed Paul's ideology of the application of the law only in its spiritual/figurative context(Rom7:14) and never again in its traditional/literal. That's why he would say no more literal curcumcision(Gal5:2-4) but again present a spiritual circumcision(Rom2:28-29, Php3:3) and he would apply the law of the ox not for a literal ox but for the spiritual ox, the ministers of God (1Cor9:7-9). Similarly in these contentious injunctions, they are referred to the spiritual Man and spiritual Woman in the context of proper ministerial order (which was well taught orally in the churches, hence they clearly understood what was meant, never taking it literally, unlike we do, who weren't in the classes) here in prophecy and in 1Tim2 in doctrinal teaching. Ministers of the Spirit understand this ministerial order.
Lastly, Paul himself makes mention of eminent Apostle Junia (who by apostlolic office must have had churches under her oversight).

There are still more of course but chew on these first.

Cc: Bodydialect57

Finallydead,
Yes, there was a thread on this topic a few months ago and I purposely chose to stay silent.
Just happened to see this the other day and decided to give a female's perspective on it.
I think we're gonna ultimately have to "agree to disagree".
Sorry for using Ahab/Jezebel. I was trying to show what happens when a man doesn't stand in his head-ship. Ahab was wrong from the beginning because he chose to marry a non-believer. He paid dearly for that decision.
I know Joyce Meyer's ministry and Paula White.
I wasn't aware that Joyce Meyer was a pastor, but I know that Paula White is.
I don't suscribe to the "prosperity gospel", so I would fundamentally have an issue with both of the ladies' ministries. They also have some theological issues that cause me concern.
Anyhow, I know that women can and do serve mightily in many areas of the church as well as outside ministries.
I do not believe that women are called to "pastor" churches. I am sorry, but I do not.
I do not believe that women are called to be bishops or elders either (1 Tim. 3 KJV)

I think culture has influenced the church more than the church has influenced the world.
If the culture back then allegedly held women back from serving in certain positions, then the cultute of today has moved in the opposite extreme. That tells me that "culture" cannot be trusted. I believe God's order...which has never changed.
The ironic thing is that I have been called a "feminist", "controlling", "want to be the husband in a relationship" etc., right here on Nairaland simply because I have a "voice/opinion" and I express it. I just laugh to myself, because folks don't know me.
Call me crazy, but I think a sincere Godly man walking humbly yet confidently through Christ Jesus in his calling, in anyplace, is close to perfection. I happen to believe though, that a few "callings" (especially the pastoral ministry) in a church setting are reserved FOR men...and I really like that.
What the "world" deems as equality is not the same manner that Christ views church structure.
It's okay for women NOT to do every job that a man does or feel that she has to have the same calling as a man. Women are still viewed as equal in God's eyes. We just have different functions.
I do not care for titles because oftentimes they produce pride and arrogance.
I am actually very comfortable with serving/ministering in the background.
I will check out the woman pastor that you suggested I research.

God2man:
God can use anybody, anything at any point in time. He is sovereign, you cannot say, this is how you want him to move. Paul was speaking to women that were not walking in the doctrine of the Apostle, the same new testament, Acts2:17-18, you will see how God promised to pour his spirit on all flesh, it says "your daughters shall prophecy". You see, there are principles for interpretation of the scriptures. You do not interpret scripture on the surface like that, you need to go deep in prayer and revelations. God bless you. God2man.

Well said.

Eviana:
Finallydead,
Yes, there was a thread on this topic a few months ago and I purposely chose to stay silent.
Just happened to see this the other day and decided to give a female's perspective on it.
I think we're gonna ultimately have to "agree to disagree".
Sorry for using Ahab/Jezebel. I was trying to show what happens when a man doesn't stand in his head-ship. Ahab was wrong from the beginning because he chose to marry a non-believer. He paid dearly for that decision.
I know Joyce Meyer's ministry and Paula White.
I wasn't aware that Joyce Meyer was a pastor, but I know that Paula White is.
I don't suscribe to the "prosperity gospel", so I would fundamentally have an issue with both of the ladies' ministries. They also have some theological issues that cause me concern.
Anyhow, I know that women can and do serve mightily in many areas of the church as well as outside ministries.
I do not believe that women are called to "pastor" churches. I am sorry, but I do not.
I do not believe that women are called to be bishops or elders either (1 Tim. 3 KJV)

I think culture has influenced the church more than the church has influenced the world.
If the culture back then allegedly held women back from serving in certain positions, then the cultute of today has moved in the opposite extreme. That tells me that "culture" cannot be trusted. I believe God's order...which has never changed.
The ironic thing is that I have been called a "feminist", "controlling", "want to be the husband in a relationship" etc., right here on Nairaland simply because I have a "voice/opinion" and I express it. I just laugh to myself, because folks don't know me.
Call me crazy, but I think a sincere Godly man walking humbly yet confidently through Christ Jesus in his calling, in anyplace, is close to perfection. I happen to believe though, that a few "callings" (especially the pastoral ministry) in a church setting are reserved from men...and I really like that.
What the "world" deems as equality is not the same manner that Christ views church structure.
It's okay for women NOT to do every job that a man does or feel that she has to have the same calling as a man. Women are still viewed as equal in God's eyes. We just have different functions.
I do not care for titles because oftentimes they produce pride and arrogance.
I am actually very comfortable with serving/ministering in the background.
I will check out the woman pastor that you suggested I research.

I like how you stated your perspective even I don't fully agree.

Please check out Rev. Mrs. Oyenike Areogun.

Eviana:
Finallydead, Yes, there was a thread on this topic a few months ago and I purposely chose to stay silent. Just happened to see this the other day and decided to give a female's perspective on it. I think we're gonna ultimately have to "agree to disagree". Sorry for using Ahab/Jezebel. I was trying to show what happens when a man doesn't stand in his head-ship. Ahab was wrong from the beginning because he chose to marry a non-believer. He paid dearly for that decision. I know Joyce Meyer's ministry and Paula White. I wasn't aware that Joyce Meyer was a pastor, but I know that Paula White is.I don't suscribe to the "prosperity gospel", so I would fundamentally have an issue with both of the ladies' ministries. They also have some theological issues that cause me concern. Anyhow, I know that women can and do serve mightily in many areas of the church as well as outside ministries. I do not believe that women are called to "pastor" churches. I am sorry, but I do not.I do not believe that women are called to be bishops or elders either (1 Tim. 3 KJV)I think culture has influenced the church more than the church has influenced the world. If the culture back then allegedly held women back from serving in certain positions, then the cultute of today has moved in the opposite extreme. That tells me that "culture" cannot be trusted. I believe God's order...which has never changed.The ironic thing is that I have been called a "feminist","controlling", "want to be the husband in a relationship" etc., right here on Nairaland simply because I have a "voice/opinion" and I express it. I just laugh to myself, because folks don't know me. Call me crazy, but I think a sincere Godly man walking humbly yet confidently through Christ Jesus in his calling, in any place, is close to perfection. I happen to believe though, that a few"callings" (especially the pastoral ministry) in a church setting are reserved from men...and I really like that. What the "world" deems as equality is not the same manner that Christ views church structure. It's okay for women NOT to do every job that a man does or feel that she has to have the same calling as a man. Women are still viewed as equal in God's eyes. We just have different functions.I do not care for titles because oftentimes they produce pride and arrogance.I am actually very comfortable with serving/ministering in the background.I will check out the woman pastor that you suggested I research.

First, there is nothing like equality between male and female and apart from our common fallen Adamic nature and corrupted flesh and blood, there is so much that divides both. You don't compare apples and oranges but if you need vitamin C, you can choose either.
The female is also a weaker vessel and must be subordinate to the male IN THE HOME. This doesn't stop God from using them in pastoral ministry which is according to gifting and grace and which isn't physically strenuous.
When it comes to the word of God, your humble, empathetic opinion, even as a woman in this case holds no water whatsoever(nor anyone else's) and is better left in your bosom so as not to mislead others for God is not a man and His ways are not ours.
What I have done here is to present scripture for the reader including you and to show how it was wrongly interpreted to form a demonic doctrine which is to hinder many the Lord is calling today. If you or anyone else can scripturally scrutinize my query, I'll delve deeper as time permits otherwise, I see no gain in groundless arguments. When that is done sufficiently, it's up to each reader to make their choice.
What you, however, have done is to present what you "subscribe to", "happen to believe", "really like", "care for", "are very comfortable with" and all without scriptural support towards my query. We cannot use any of those for ministerial order else the work of God on earth will not be achieved. Its always the trend when scripture goes against people's traditional belief, they simply avoid it and choose whatsoever they like to believe. Return to my queries on the scriptures, then.

As for your choice of 1Tim3, you really haven't shown how females were banned from pastoral offices. What you have there is what was applicable to the culture of the time, when churches ran only as home cells pastored by individuals (a different scenario from today's pastoral ministries) and districts were supervised by individuals over them. Paul didn't write to set boundaries for literal genders in ministry in any way here as my query proved but simply to tell what was required of those who, as per the culture of the time, were only males and both Paul's figurative male and female genders applied to all such literal males in those positions as much as the 10 maids and the bride of Christ applies to even literal males in the global church.

As for divine order you speak of, like I said before, you MUST produce 2 or 3 witnesses before you talk about divine order.(1Cor14:27, Mt18:16, 2Cor13:1). I'll be waiting for you to do that.

As for Joyce Meyer, Paula White, Smith Wigglesworth's wife, Polly(who was his pastor though he was her head at home), Aimee McPherson etc., my question to you isn't your assessment of their ministries(I'll leave that their Master) but whether God called them to found and pastor those churches.

Using Jezebel, a demon incarnate, for a female example is as good as using Nimrod or the Antichrist for male examples. If you need examples of women, called by God, who not only governed people groups but the whole land of Israel, start with Deborah, the governess(judge) of Israel, all males included(which btw is far weightier than pastoral authority) or Junia the apostle.
So Eviana, if you think you can, answer my queries, else, let's call it a goodbye from me and God bless you dear.

Cc: Bodydialect57, sholay2011

Finallydead,
Sir or madam...
I see that you are wanting to debate God's Word.
I'm not here for that.
I'm not sure if you are a follower of Christ, but if so, there's a way to speak and in this case "type" in a non-aggressive, non-insulting manner.
You have questioned my prayer life, called my belief "demonic", insulted my use of biblical examples, and challenged me to bring evidence to why I do not believe your view etc.

This gives fodder to the people of "other" religions, and the unbelieving scoffers and mockers who claim to believe in "nothing."
They see the arguments, strife, debates, extreme fanaticism, unconverted, and more within Christianity and boy, do they mock us!

If you feel "called" to tell women that they are "called" to pastoral ministry, then by all means do so. You are free to shout from the roof-top.

I came to a thread, gave my belief and that's that.
My belief...is my belief and I feel it is scripturally supported.
I did not give Deborah as an example because she was a "judge". We were speaking about pastoral ministry. I used Jezebel because she was in a leadership position that affected all of Israel...God's people.

The beauty of my birth country is that I am allowed freedom of speech, and religion etc.,..at least for now.
What's even MORE beautiful than that is that the only really important entity Whose opinion/affirmation matters to me is the God of Abraham, Isaac and Israel.
Oh, and also the opinion of the physical man whom I will be presented to as his bride...and he my groom...if that is God's plan for me in the future.

So, if you'd like to meet up on another thread somewhere in this section and converse about the need for professors of Christ to fervently wrestle in prayer for ALL of the Fruit of the Spirit (love, joy, peace, long-suffering, gentleness, meekness, faith, self-control) and to release the fruit of the flesh (anger, strife, debating, pride, having a mean spirit, insulting others etc.), please mention me. I'd be up for that.
God bless you too

sholay2011:

I like how you stated your perspective even I don't fully agree.

Please check out Rev. Mrs. Oyenike Areogun.

Thank you sir.
I respect the way you replied although you disagree.
Will do so. It may be very enlightening for me.

You contradict yourself, Eviana, but you don't know. You claim God's opinion is only and all-important but when I advised you to seek Him on a controversial issue that affects the destiny of souls, you rejected the idea calling it questioning your prayer life. I do that because I don't like to be an authority but to always direct the humble to His majesty.
This is also why you sound funny to me when you say I'm up for a debate because if I really were, I wouldn't direct you back to God. Re-read my posts carefully again(I don't know which you read that gave you wrong ideas, probably the unedited ones??). I did say I always prefer believers seek God in personal relationship and grow spiritually rather than delve into contentious subjects that subjugate their souls and others'. So I'm not that type. If you want a constructive discussion, I might make out time for that but as you can can see, I'm not emotional in handling the word of God. I will be firm even if you call it a wrong/fleshly approach in your own understanding. Your feelings are not as important as your soul and that of many others the truth will liberate. If you can't handle that, you're under no constraints.
However, as I said before, you seem more interested in your sacred opinion than discussing it with the Holy Spirit(who will surely tell you the mind of God) or at least looking thoroughly into the scripture helped by my query(which you can do in your personal time b/w you and God, not necessarily with me). I suggest you read through all my posts on a more relaxed and less emotional frame of mind, then choose what you wish to believe. It doesnt matter either if you believe or reject my perspective. You have just one Master and we'll stand separately in the Tribunal.
This brings our calling to mind. My calling is not to tell women the truth nor is it yours to be deceived and deceive others. Our calling is to be perfected in His image, liberating the animate and inanimate universe, having become liberated sons of God and no longer held bound under evil winds of doctrines which seek to stop us from the goal. You should focus on this. It's all that matters. Don't worry about all these little arguments. If you can't see it sooner which is to your advantage, the coming move of God will make the mind of God clear to all eventually.
And yes, that is indeed a doctrine of devils, but don't worry, you're neither a devil nor the originator of such doctrine, you just met it there and accepted it. Fortunately, this doesn't invalidate your ticket to heaven, only shortchanges your life on earth.
Once more, Jezebel, a demonized being, daughter of High Priest of Ashtharoth, from a strange land was not given a position by God, but using witchcraft subdued her husband. You should also read about judges in scripture. The judge was Moses' seat God's idea of a ruler over the land and commander of armed forces not the kings. So don't try to avoid Deborah or Junia.
No one can take your freedom of speech either from you but be sure there is no freedom after speech for men will give account of every idle notion and whoever teaches men to break the laws of God will be called least in the Kingdom of heaven and judged more severely(Mt5:19, Jam3:1) so like I said before, if you will speak, be an oracle of God otherwise, it is great wisdom to keep your opinions in your bosom safely and harmless to others.
As for your interest in learning about prayer that deals with the flesh and transforms your soul into His image, I can assure you that can't be learnt on a nairaland thread. Delving into the deep of His presence requires great sacrifice, humility, hunger, resolve and commitment. But if you want to talk about it, I'm more interested and disposed for such than destructive doctrines and arguments.
Have a blessed day, Eviana. May you fulfill your calling.

Thanks for the mention MH. I trust you are fine and keeping safe. You have well presented the truth just like you did in the other thread. I will just add this.

When it comes to God reaching out to His creations to deliver, heal or even pass a message across, He does not discriminate between man or woman, whosoever is available and ready will be on errand for Him. When Barak was dragging feet and unwilling go face the enemy as a man, Deborah, a woman, prophetess, the wife of Lapidoth, who was ready and available was used of God to deliver the people of Israel from their enemy. Judges 4:8-9.
Many a man today will resist the leadership position of women cos they don't really understand the full workings of God, the operations of His Spirit. Joel 2: 28 promised the outpouring of His spirit to all flesh, both the male and female without discrimination. Kathryn Kulma was greatly used of God in the healing ministry in which many, men inclusive, were beneficiaries. If such had resisted the hands of God stretched forth through a woman, they would have missed out of God's blessings. As God did in days gone by, He is doing same today through His Spirit, pouring out His gifts on both the male and female so the body of Christ can be edified, and not just for a supremacy battle.

Finallydead:


First, there is nothing like equality between male and female and apart from our common fallen Adamic nature and corrupted flesh and blood, there is so much that divides both. You don't compare apples and oranges but if you need vitamin C, you can choose either. The female is a weaker vessel and must be subordinate to the male IN THE HOME. This doesn't stop God from using them in pastoral ministry which is according to gifting and grace and which isn't physically strenuous.
When it comes to the word of God, your humble, empathetic opinion, even as a woman in this case holds no water whatsoever(nor anyone else's) and is better left in your bosom so as not to mislead others for God is not a man and His ways are not ours.
What I have done here is to present scripture for the reader including you and to show how it was wrongly interpreted to form a demonic doctrine which is to hinder many the Lord is calling today. If you or anyone else can counter my query, I'll delve deeper as time permits otherwise, I see no gain in unnecessary arguments. When that is done sufficiently, it's up to each to make their choice.
What you, however, have done is to present what you "subscribe to", "happen to believe", "really like", "care for", "are very comfortable with" and all without answering the query. We cannot use any of those for ministerial order else the work of God on earth will not be achieved. Its always the trend when scripture goes against people's traditional belief, they simply avoid it and choose whatsoever they like to believe. Return to my queries on the scriptures, then.

As for your choice of 1Tim3, you really haven't shown how females were banned from pastoral offices. What you have there is what was applicable to the culture of the time, when churches ran only as home cells pastored by individuals (a different scenario from today's pastoral ministries) and districts were supervised by individuals over them. Paul didn't write to set boundaries for literal genders in ministry in any way here as my query proved but simply to tell what was required of those who, as per the culture of the time, were only males and both Paul's figurative male and female genders applied to all such literal males in those positions as much as the 10 maids and the bride of Christ applies to even literal males in the global church.

As for divine order you speak of, like I said before, you MUST produce 2 or 3 witnesses before you talk about divine order.(1Cor14:27, Mt18:16, 2Cor13:1). I'll be waiting for you to do that.

As for Joyce Meyer, Paula White, Smith Wigglesworth's wife, Polly(who was his pastor though he was her head at home), Aimee McPherson etc., my question to you isn't your assessment of their ministries(I'll leave that their Master) but whether God called them to found and pastor those churches.

Using Jezebel, a demon incarnate, for a female example is as good as using Nimrod or the Antichrist for male examples. If you need examples of women, called by God, who not only governed people groups but the whole land of Israel, start with Deborah, the governess(judge) of Israel, all males included(which btw is far weightier than pastoral authority) or Junia the apostle.
So Eviana, if you think you can, answer my queries, else, let's call it a goodbye from me and God bless you dear.

Cc: Bodydialect57, sholay2011

Yes though women did not serve as priests/priestesses in those days, we still had the likes of Deborah the prophetess, who was a judge in Israel ( l guess you know what that means, the same office Samuel the prophet occupied) as well as Anna, the prophetess who never left the temple but was serving God day and night with fastings and prayers. Luke 2:36-37

numo86:
its totally wrong and unacceptable, infact when i see female pastors,bishop mrs and deaconnesses i get so discouraged as to how christendom has abused Gods spiritual arrangement, i mean after these pastors have read 1corinthians 14:33-35, and 1timothy 2:11-13 why do they still presumpteously appoint females to teach,stand on d pulpit to teach a crowd, i mean i wonder if all the pastors have eye problems and dirts in there ear drums , why cant they for once apply and obey theocratic order, infact any church that has bishop mrs,deaconneses and pastor mrs is not a church of christ, because God is not a God of disorderliness but of arrangement, even d qualifications @ 1timothy3:1-16 for bishops and deacons are meant for only men, but today women too are struglin for these offices, its just like sayin that women durin d isrealite days could also serve as priests and under-priests in Gods temple, that will be an abormination, and thats exactly d same wit women runnin around with there big caps and gele's answerin pastor mrs and deaconesses, crasy!!!!

Bodydialect57:
Thanks for the mention MH. I trust you are fine and keeping safe. You have well presented the truth just like you did in the other thread. I will just add this.

When it comes to God reaching out to His creations to deliver, heal or even pass a message across, He does not discriminate between man or woman, whosoever is available and ready will be on errand for Him. When Barak was dragging feet and unwilling go face the enemy as a man, Deborah, a woman, prophetess, the wife of Lapidoth, who was ready and available was used of God to deliver the people of Israel from their enemy. Judges 4:8-9.
Many a man today will resist the leadership position of women cos they don't really understand the full workings of God, the operations of His Spirit. Joel 2: 28 promised the outpouring of His spirit to all flesh, both the male and female without discrimination. Kathryn Kulma was greatly used of God in the healing ministry in which many, men inclusive, were beneficiaries. If such had resisted the hands of God stretched forth through a woman, they would have missed out of God's blessings. As God did in days gone by, He is doing same today through His Spirit, pouring out His gifts on both the male and female so the body of Christ can be edified, and not just for a supremacy battle.

Yes, sister. Let no demonic doctrine hinder you from answering God's calling. For even in these last days, thousands of Deborahs will rise and shine brightly for His glory. And God will use the weak things of this world to confound the mighty.
God bless you.

Eviana:
As a woman myself, I would say that a church where a woman is a pastor or bishop is "out of God's divine order". I would not attend it.

There is a reason why God has this following order in the family which also shoild be the pattern in the church:
Christ
Godly man
Godly woman

Just a few scriptures....

Genesis 2:18 (KJV)
1 Corinthians 11:3-12 (KJV)
Ephesians 5:22-23 (KJV)


The responsibility falls on the man first...which is why Adam was who God called first, although it was Eve who was seduced and deceived and caused sin to occur.
A man that sits under a woman in a pastoral role in a church setting relinquishes the God-given authority given to him. Instead of him covering the woman, she assumes the head-ship role in the relationship..which is out of order.
We can see the consequences of a role-reversal of God's divine order by the example of King Ahab and Queen Jezebel... (1 Kings 16:29 KJV-the first introduction of the wicked pair).
Follow the story to see how it ends.
Now let me be balanced here.
God's divine order is not to be confused with some abusive patriarchal cultural norms, that occur in many developing countries.. cough...Nigeria...cough...sorry folks but it's true.
A woman has a voice, but she is not to disrespect or usurp power from the man.
Godly men are not to abuse their authority.

When God's divine order (inside and outside of church) is followed (by both individuals), peace and order reigns.

God bless you for this, I believe women can be pastors but not over christian men.
You are 100% correct

solite3:
God bless you for this, I believe women can be pastors but not over christian men.
You are 100% correct

Thank you sir.
I am convicted about this.

Eviana:
Finallydead,
Sir or madam...
I see that you are wanting to debate God's Word.
I'm not here for that.
I'm not sure if you are a follower of Christ, but if so, there's a way to speak and in this case "type" in a non-aggressive, non-insulting manner.
You have questioned my prayer life, called my belief "demonic", insulted my use of biblical examples, and challenged me to bring evidence to why I do not believe your view etc.

This gives fodder to the people of "other" religions, and the unbelieving scoffers and mockers who claim to believe in "nothing."
They see the arguments, strife, debates, extreme fanaticism, unconverted, and more within Christianity and boy, do they mock us!

If you feel "called" to tell women that they are "called" to pastoral ministry, then by all means do so. You are free to shout from the roof-top.

I came to a thread, gave my belief and that's that.
My belief...is my belief and I feel it is scripturally supported.
I did not give Deborah as an example because she was a "judge". We were speaking about pastoral ministry. I used Jezebel because she was in a leadership position that affected all of Israel...God's people.

The beauty of my birth country is that I am allowed freedom of speech, and religion etc.,..at least for now.
What's even MORE beautiful than that is that the only really important entity Whose opinion/affirmation matters to me is the God of Abraham, Isaac and Israel.
Oh, and also the opinion of the physical man whom I will be presented to as his bride...and he my groom...if that is God's plan for me in the future.

So, if you'd like to meet up on another thread somewhere in this section and converse about the need for professors of Christ to fervently wrestle in prayer for ALL of the Fruit of the Spirit (love, joy, peace, long-suffering, gentleness, meekness, faith, self-control) and to release the fruit of the flesh (anger, strife, debating, pride, having a mean spirit, insulting others etc.), please mention me. I'd be up for that.
God bless you too

avoid debate or arguments especially with people who have no regard for God's word.