Here's an atheist in Nigeria. Why don't you simply listen to his short story?

[flash=560,315]
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N6LgzBaTBSE?version=3&amp[/flash]

I have not yet watched the video. I'm currently downloading it. What's your take on it ?

I like the video, chock-full of false assumptions of course - like equating christianity with poverty and corruption in nigeria.
He also makes the common atheist fallacy that wisdom = rejection of religion.
If religion serves only to divide man, one wonders why atheist Japan was one of the worst perpetrators of evil and death during WW2.

davidylan:

I like the video, chock-full of false assumptions of course - like equating christianity with poverty and corruption in nigeria.

He didn't make that claim, he even talked about the reason why he made the video which has nothing to do with any of what you have written, but christianity is directly related to poverty and corruption in Nigeria, only a deluded person will say other wise . . . .Look at what is going on in the churches. . . . .Christianity and Islam are directly responsible for the problems Nigeria is facing today, the problems they are causing is at the same level with corruption. . . .Nothing segregates people like religion presently in Nigeria. . . .NOTHING. . . .The country is presently trying to break away because religion. . . .

He also makes the common atheist fallacy that wisdom = rejection of religion.
If religion serves only to divide man, one wonders why atheist Japan was one of the worst perpetrators of evil and death during WW2.

He never made that claim. He only talked about how religion is destroying the country and talked about his personal battles with the members of his family and the society at large for not accepting their religious mythologies . . .He went ahead to say that many that reject religious mythology should not feel they are alone. . . .

I haven't watched the video because my Internet connection is f*****d right now.

mazaje:

He didn't make that claim, he even talked about the reason why he made the video which has nothing to do with any of what you have written,

Okay.

mazaje:
but christianity is directly related to poverty and corruption in Nigeria, only a deluded person will say other wise . . . .Look at what is going on in the churches. . . . .Christianity and Islam are directly responsible for the problems Nigeria is facing today, the problems they are causing is at the same level with corruption. . . .Nothing segregates people like religion presently in Nigeria. . . .NOTHING. . . .The country is presently trying to break away because religion. . . .

How is Christianity directly related to poverty in Nigeria ? Are you willing to attribute the wealth of UAE, Kuwait & Israel to religion ? I ask these questions because it appears a double standard applies: ignore contexts where religion exists in a generally comfortable society and naively attribute evils to religion. I'll give one thing that segregates even more than religion: Tribalism. Have you also considered that atheism also breaks possible relationships. I have witnessed and can cite on request a thread in RD.Net where atheists did show a bias in which marital partners they could choose. Be careful that you do not say in a society in which only atheism pervades such won't be the case. It would be wrong on 2 counts: i) other factors such as race and economic class also cause divisions ii) the case could be equally be made that if a belief system e.g Bahai Faith were likewise dominant such rifts along religious lines could cease.

mazaje:
He never made that claim. He only talked about how religion is destroying the country and talked about his personal battles with the members of his family and the society at large for not accepting their religious mythologies . . .He went ahead to say that many that reject religious mythology should not feel they are alone. . . .

Okay. I would be in a better position to critique what is said once I watch the video. However, I would address the emboldened statement. A more accurate statement to make is this: Religious fanaticism is what is destroying the country. I am ad arguendo ignoring the fact that there are other factors. But to make the claim that religion destroys the country is flawed in 2 ways:

i) It is based on a misunderstanding on the concept of religion which is not solely reducible to a belief in deities or sacred texts. Religion is much broader than that.

ii) It fails to properly make what is being meant. Certainly, Akintoba can't say Taoism, Buddhism or FSM is destroying the country, and yet, these are religions aren't they. To correct such, I presented a better way of articulating his point. Atheists are certainly not the only ones who reason.

Uyi Iredia:


How is Christianity directly related to poverty in Nigeria ? Are you willing to attribute the wealth of UAE, Kuwait & Israel to religion ? I ask these questions because it appears a double standard applies: ignore contexts where religion exists in a generally comfortable society and naively attribute evils to religion.

Let me tell you how. . . .The kind of passive christianity that is practiced in Nigeria that always encourage prayers and superstitious magic instead of hard work, commitment, dedication and patriotism as the only way out of the mess the country finds it self in is greatly responsible for the poverty that plagues the country,  about 80 percent of church goers in the country are poor, when the go to church they are NEVER encouraged to reason, think, work hard, and strive to solve all their problems themselves collectively as humans, instead they are told to pray for peace, blessings and wealth, pray for cure for sickness and diseases etc. . . .The mentality of prayers as a solution to all problems breeds laziness and complacency. . .That exactly is what is happening in Nigeria. Many people are just to complacent, they feel they have God and with the type of christianity practiced in Nigeria that encourages them to have faith instead of reason the country and the people suffer. . .Money that is supposed to be used to start up personal businesses are given to pastors as offerings, first fruits, tithes etc. . .

Instead of people fighting for their rights from the very corrupt and insensitive political elites people are encouraged to be passive and told to pray for the country and commit their leaders into the hands of God to touch them and change them. . .That has not worked and will NEVER work. . .As long as this type of passive christianity continues, it will continue to drag the nation behind. . . .Every thing that Nigerians need to do MUST be done by NIgerians themselves, NO God can ever bring peace to NIgeria, NO God can ever make Nigeria great, Nigerians will have to do that themselves. . . .A lot of Nigerian christains believe that prayers is what will bring peace and development to the nation because of the type of passive chriatianity that is practiced there. . . .

I'll give one thing that segregates even more than religion: Tribalism. Have you also considered that atheism also breaks possible relationships. I have witnessed and can cite on request a thread in RD.Net where atheists did show a bias in which marital partners they could choose. Be careful that you do not say in a society in which only atheism pervades such won't be the case. It would be wrong on 2 counts: i) other factors such as race and economic class also cause divisions ii) the case could be equally be made that if a belief system e.g Bahai Faith were likewise dominant such rifts along religious lines could cease.

Sure, tribalism is a great problem in Nigeria. . .But religion is also destroying the country on the same level as tribalism if not more. . . Many Nigerians can not tolerate the fact that some people belong to another religion, many feel their religions are superior and all others completely lack legitimacy, after all the bible says that whoever that does not believe in its stories and creed is condemned already, many christians look at non christians as condemned people and treat them as such because their word of God says so. . .The koran states that Allah does not like the unbelievers and many muslims are happy to treat non muslims as the enemies of Allah because the koran says so. . .

Okay. I would be in a better position to critique what is said once I watch the video. However, I would address the emboldened statement. A more accurate statement to make is this: Religious fanaticism is what is destroying the country. I am ad arguendo ignoring the fact that there are other factors. But to make the claim that religion destroys the country is flawed in 2 ways:

i) It is based on a misunderstanding on the concept of religion which is not solely reducible to a belief in deities or sacred texts. Religion is much broader than that.

ii) It fails to properly make what is being meant. Certainly, Akintoba can't say Taoism, Buddhism or FSM is destroying the country, and yet, these are religions aren't they. To correct such, I presented a better way of articulating his point. Atheists are certainly not the only ones who reason.

Sure, a lot of the greatest minds in the world today and in the past are religious people. . .You can never see me making the argument that atheist are more intelligent than religious people. Now to the point about fanaticism, the average Nigerian christian or muslim is a fanatic. . .The average Nigerian christian sees the muslims as a joke tha does not deserve any kind of legetimacy or someone that deserves to be mocked or ridiculed for his/her beliefs. . .The average Nigerian muslims see the christians as some one that is lost accursed and deserves to die and suffer for belonging to the wrong religion. . . .Only a person that is living in denial will deny this fact. . . .

davidylan:

I like the video, chock-full of false assumptions of course - like equating christianity with poverty and corruption in nigeria.

Aww come on. He never made such an equation.

davidylan:

He also makes the common atheist fallacy that wisdom = rejection of religion.

He didn't say this either. And how is it a common atheist fallacy that wisdom = rejection of religion? Don't get me wrong, lots of wise people have rejected religion but how is this a common atheist fallacy?

davidylan:

If religion serves only to divide man, one wonders why atheist Japan was one of the worst perpetrators of evil and death during WW2.

What does religion serving to divide man have to do with Japan's actions during a war? This my friend is a beautiful non-sequitur unless of course you're willing to defend your statement.

thehomer:

What does religion serving to divide man have to do with Japan's actions during a war? This my friend is a beautiful non-sequitur unless of course you're willing to defend your statement.

actually its not. His point is that religion has served to divide us by inciting wars and sectarian violence. We see this same problems in countries that claim to be atheist as well so is this really a problem with religion or basic human nature?

You are not addressing all my arguments. You pick on some & ignore other pertinent points I raise. I will point them out in my reply.

mazaje:

Let me tell you how. . . .The kind of passive Christianity that is practiced in Nigeria that always encourage prayers and superstitious magic instead of hard work, commitment, dedication and patriotism as the only way out of the mess the country finds it self in is greatly responsible for the poverty that plagues the country,  about 80 percent of church goers in the country are poor, when the go to church they are NEVER encouraged to reason, think, work hard, and strive to solve all their problems themselves collectively as humans, instead they are told to pray for peace, blessings and wealth, pray for cure for sickness and diseases etc. . . .The mentality of prayers as a solution to all problems breeds laziness and complacency. . .That exactly is what is happening in Nigeria. Many people are just to complacent, they feel they have God and with the type of Christianity practiced in Nigeria that encourages them to have faith instead of reason the country and the people suffer. . .Money that is supposed to be used to start up personal businesses are given to pastors as offerings, first fruits, tithes etc. . .

* Christians also encourage hard-work. You should be aware of Christian advocacy groups like SNG & CAN, charities, orphanages, micro-finance initiatives, community development initiatives & educational establishments by Christians. Do not dare make the asinine claim that this is not 'active Christianity'. Keep in mind that you have to show how Christianity actively encourages poverty, especially given my counter-arguments that Christian bodies undertake poverty-alleviation schemes.

* You distort the Christian's position. Here it is: Prayer & Hard-work lead to success. Even at that, The Bible does not in any way pretend that people can't be successful without prayer. In Ecclesiastes, King Solomon talks of the sun shining on both believers & unbelievers. I suggest you read that book in the Bible. Apart from the mention of God, you should glean something from it. Also note, that Christians also believe in collectively striving to solve problems. Some of the aforesaid activities involve various denominations working to gather.

* Your last statement is a based on the distortion mentioned above and hence is a non-starter. What Christians do is bring money from the proceeds of the start-up businesses as thanksgiving or reserve a portion of money meant for start-up businesses as an offering. BTW, you blatantly ignore the (sometimes extremist) religious practices in better-placed nations like Kuwait & Israel. Why don't you assert that the dominant religions there are responsible for the wealth of such nations ?

mazaje:
Instead of people fighting for their rights from the very corrupt and insensitive political elites people are encouraged to be passive and told to pray for the country and commit their leaders into the hands of God to touch them and change them. . .That has not worked and will NEVER work. . .As long as this type of passive Christianity continues, it will continue to drag the nation behind. . . .Every thing that Nigerians need to do MUST be done by NIgerians themselves, NO God can ever bring peace to NIgeria, NO God can ever make Nigeria great, Nigerians will have to do that themselves. . . .A lot of Nigerian christains believe that prayers is what will bring peace and development to the nation because of the type of passive chriatianity that is practiced there. . . .

* I see ! You are blind to the fact that Christians & Muslims came out en masse to protest the fuel subsidy. You ignore religionists like Tunde Bakare, Gani Fawehinmi, Femi Falana, Festus Keyamo, even the Abami-Eda himself (i.e Fela). Now, did religion preclude their fight against corruption, each in his own unique way ? I submit to you that you'll ignore this question or present the canard that their actions stemmed despite religion.

mazaje:
Sure, tribalism is a great problem  Nigeria. . .But religion is also destroying the country on the same level as tribalism if not more. . . Many Nigerians can not tolerate the fact that some people belong to another religion, many feel their religions are superior and all others completely lack legitimacy, after all the bible says that whoever that does not believe in its stories and creed is condemned already, many christians look at non christians as condemned people and treat them as such because their word of God says so. . .The koran states that Allah does not like the unbelievers and many muslims are happy to treat non muslims as the enemies of Allah because the koran says so. . .

Your bias once again blinds you. Here's how. You ignore that there are inter-faith marriages in the country; this is particularly common in Lagos as exemplified by the (immediate past & present) 'first couple' of Lagos. Fashola is a Muslim while his wife is a Christian; same went for BAT & his wife. You clearly gloss over the problems tribalism cause and go on to list the problems of religion (which I emboldened) which somehow boils down to the actions of Christians and what the Koran said. I will be only to happy to school you on how religion played a role in stabilizing the polity of the pre-colonial Edos; I also wonder whether you ignore how Dan Fodio used Islam as a basis of uniting the Northerners, they may be 'backwards' but even Southerners envy the union of the Northerners (especially as exemplified by the Hausas).

I hope you're familiar with the No True Scotsman fallacy. In this case, 'no-good religion' fallacy. How do you make the said fallacy ? I present a counter-example to your claim that religion causes problems (e.g tribalism). You admit it, then go on to highlight  the problems of religion. It is actions like this which convince me of my posit that Atheism is a religion. Just so you (and other Nairalanders) know I have modified that posit.

I have updated my knowledge on evolution & modified my stance. Are you willing to continue the thread 'The Descendant of Apes' ?

thehomer:

Aww come on. He never made such an equation.

He implied that. Here's what he said: "In Nigeria, we have pastors who live like kings, who have private jets, there's even a particular one of them who has over 4 private jets (Oyedepo I assume)." sic

thehomer:
He didn't say this either. And how is it a common atheist fallacy that wisdom = rejection of religion? Don't get me wrong, lots of wise people have rejected religion but how is this a common atheist fallacy?

I agree Akintoba did not also make this 'atheist fallacy'. However he made a statement which I pose to you as a question: ". . . Religion in itself is one of (if not) the greatest evil that plagues man." sic Do you agree with this ? What's the reason for your answer ?

thehomer:
What does religion serving to divide man have to do with Japan's actions during a war? This my friend is a beautiful non-sequitur unless of course you're willing to defend your statement.

A case can be made the there are other lines along which man can be divide. Even in science, supporters/opposers of a theory can be aggressive (case in point: neo-Darwinism & Lamarckism). Consider also other lines of division such as race, views on morality, aesthetics, economic systems, language etc. To that extent, singling out religion (and implying) that it is the greatest evil is a non-starter. Has this guy also considered that a case could be made for atheism (especially as advocated by the so-called 'new/militant atheists') is a religion ?

Uyi Iredia:

.

* Christians also encourage hard-work. You should be aware of Christian advocacy groups like SNG & CAN, charities, orphanages, micro-finance initiatives, community development initiatives & educational establishments by Christians. Do not dare make the asinine claim that this is not 'active Christianity'. Keep in mind that you have to show how Christianity actively encourages poverty, especially given my counter-arguments that Christian bodies undertake poverty-alleviation schemes.

Firstly the SNG is NOT a christian advocacy group. . .What are the christian micro finance initiatives and what exactly are their impact on the lives of the average christian Nigerian? How many people have such christian initiatives lifted out of poverty? Majority of christian based educational institutions in Nigeria like high schools and universities are NOT affordable to the average Nigerians even at that they still perform and rank below the federal university on all rankings that have been published despite the exorbitant prices they charge. I agree, there are christian initiatives but their impact is very minimal or completely absent in some cases and not felt by the people. . .Compare the money that these christian charities give out to the monies the churches take and and you will see the GREAT difference. . . .People are encouraged to give to churches in Nigeria more than anything. Last time I was dragged to church by my family members cos it was a thanks giving service and I was shocked at what I was hearing. . .

* You distort the Christian's position. Here it is: Prayer & Hard-work lead to success. Even at that, The Bible does not in any way pretend that people can't be successful without prayer. In Ecclesiastes, King Solomon talks of the sun shining on both believers & unbelievers. I suggest you read that book in the Bible. Apart from the mention of God, you should glean something from it. Also note, that Christians also believe in collectively striving to solve problems. Some of the aforesaid activities involve various denominations working to gather.

The Nigerian Christian position is PRAYERS ALONE in most cases, that is why you MOSTLY hear about break throughs, through offering of tithes, seed sowing fasting and and prayers. . . .Its very common practice in Nigerian churches to hear about seed sowing, paying of tithes as the magic bullet to financial success. . .If Nigerians on the avarage believe in prayers more than hard work, their statements on average confirms this. . .When something happens they first thing that comes out of their mouths is lets pray for this or that. . . You don't hear about steps that are to be taken to solve problems. . .The bible talks about prayers and hard work in some places and also talks about prayers and faith alone in other places. In the words of Jesus if you pray and believe what ever you ask for will be given to you. . .It didn't say pray and work hard, it saysjust pray and believe and what ever you ask for will be given to you. . . .So don't even start with the bible because its a book written by so many different people with different ideas and conception of who God is to them. . . .

* Your last statement is a based on the distortion mentioned above and hence is a non-starter. What Christians do is bring money from the proceeds of the start-up businesses as thanksgiving or reserve a portion of money meant for start-up businesses as an offering. BTW, you blatantly ignore the (sometimes extremist) religious practices in better-placed nations like Kuwait & Israel. Why don't you assert that the dominant religions there are responsible for the wealth of such nations ?

Many christians in Nigeria use money that is supposed to go towards the betterment of their lives to their various churches. . .Its only a person that is living in denial that will deny that fact. . . .I never said religion is the only problem we have in Nigeria, but the type of religion we practice in the country is killing the country at the same rate with corruption and tribalism and that is the fact. . . . Extremist religious practice is NOT encouraged in Israel because about 40% of the population is atheist, and a greater percentage are secular extremist are very few and have no impact on the country as a whole. . . .Kuwait is a homogeneous country when it comes to religion and tribe so their case is quite different. . . .

* I see ! You are blind to the fact that Christians & Muslims came out en masse to protest the fuel subsidy. You ignore religionists like Tunde Bakare, Gani Fawehinmi, Femi Falana, Festus Keyamo, even the Abami-Eda himself (i.e Fela). Now, did religion preclude their fight against corruption, each in his own unique way ? I submit to you that you'll ignore this question or present the canard that their actions stemmed despite religion.

What has the fact that Nigerians came out to protest an insensitive move that will destroy their lives and send them more into poverty got to do with religion?. . .Christians and muslims came out to fight for their survival which was something they had to do. . . .Where were the religious leaders during the fuel subsidy saga, most where in the churches and mosques telling people to pray for the leaders. . . .

Your bias once again blinds you. Here's how. You ignore that there are inter-faith marriages in the country; this is particularly common in Lagos as exemplified by the (immediate past & present) 'first couple' of Lagos. Fashola is a Muslim while his wife is a Christian; same went for BAT & his wife. You clearly gloss over the problems tribalism cause and go on to list the problems of religion (which I emboldened) which somehow boils down to the actions of Christians and what the Koran said.

Pls what is the percentage of inter faith marriages in Nigeria? It is still an anomaly and considered an abomination by MOST Nigerians, very few people inter marry across religious lines. . .You talk about inter marriages but fail to talk about people that have severed relationships with their family for converting to other religions or for even intermarrying across religious line. . .Its very common all over Nigeria on both sides. . .

I will be only to happy to school you on how religion played a role in stabilizing the polity of the pre-colonial Edos; I also wonder whether you ignore how Dan Fodio used Islam as a basis of uniting the Northerners, they may be 'backwards' but even Southerners envy the union of the Northerners (especially as exemplified by the Hausas).

And religion is presently about to destroy the country, no?. . . .BH is a religious movement that wants to force their religion on the whole country, which might eventual led to the destruction of the nation as we know if it not properly managed, no?. . . .

I hope you're familiar with the No True Scotsman fallacy. In this case, 'no-good religion' fallacy. How do you make the said fallacy ? I present a counter-example to your claim that religion causes problems (e.g tribalism). You admit it, then go on to highlight  the problems of religion. It is actions like this which convince me of my posit that Atheism is a religion. Just so you (and other Nairalanders) know I have modified that posit.

Religion is NOT the only problem Nigeria is facing, we have very high level of corruption, tribalism, lack of patriotism greed and insensitivity to one another as Nigerians, but the problem that religion is causing is at par with corruption and tribalism.The type of passive religion practiced in Nigeria that believes that God will slove al the problems the nation is facing is killing the country and making the people lazy and complacent. . .Let me give you an example. . .Many Nigerian muslims pledge more allegiance to Saudi Arabia than to Nigeria as such when America invaded a muslim nation some years ago riots broke out in some northern parts of Nigeria and christians were killed by muslims and their properties looted and destroyed. . .

mazaje:

Sure, a lot of the greatest minds in the world today and in the past are religious people

Agreed.

mazaje:
. . .You can never see me making the argument that atheist are more intelligent than religious people.

Okay.

mazaje:
Now to the point about fanaticism, the average Nigerian christian or muslim is a fanatic. . .The average Nigerian christian sees the muslims as a joke tha does not deserve any kind of legetimacy or someone that deserves to be mocked or ridiculed for his/her beliefs. . .The average Nigerian muslims see the christians as some one that is lost accursed and deserves to die and suffer for belonging to the wrong religion. . . .Only a person that is living in denial will deny this fact . . . .

I fear you're mistaking fundamentalism with fanaticism. Your statements on Muslims & Christians I will grant as partially accurate. I have personally fraternized with Muslims with no problems whatsoever. Consider also the fact that Muslims & Christians peacefully co-abide in some contexts (especially the
South-West). I strongly suspect that the violence we see in the North & in Jos are representative of what is called 'sectarian violence' (i.e violent activities of a set of extreme fanatics).

davidylan:

actually its not. His point is that religion has served to divide us by inciting wars and sectarian violence. We see this same problems in countries that claim to be atheist as well so is this really a problem with religion or basic human nature?

While there are various things that are used to divide people, religion is one of the major ones that we currently do have as Boko Haram, Catholicism and Protestantism can easily testify. Or can you tell us how these "countries that claim to be atheist" manage to use religion to incite wars and sectarian violence.
Note that pointing out that religion has served to divide people isn't countered by raising a counter claim that atheism serves to divide people.

Uyi Iredia:

I have updated my knowledge on evolution & modified my stance. Are you willing to continue the thread 'The Descendant of Apes' ?

That depends on how close your knowledge of the topic matches the available scientific evidence and a willingness to accept correction.

Uyi Iredia:

He implied that. Here's what he said: "In Nigeria, we have pastors who live like kings, who have private jets, there's even a particular one of them who has over 4 private jets (Oyedepo I assume)." sic

But there are pastors who live like kings and have private jets. How did he link this to causing corruption etc?

Uyi Iredia:

I agree Akintoba did not also make this 'atheist fallacy'. However he made a statement which I pose to you as a question: ". . . Religion in itself is one of (if not) the greatest evil that plagues man." sic Do you agree with this ?

Yes I do think it is one of the great evils that currently plagues man.

Uyi Iredia:

What's the reason for your answer ?

An observation of things people do for no reason other than religion.
There is this saying by Baron Acton which goes "judge talent at its best and character at its worst." When people point at religion claiming that it has some good bits, they forget that we judge how good something or someone is by assessing what its worst characters are. And of course the religious texts themselves give us the reason for the severe judgement.
Until those texts are re-written, I see no reason to adjust my stance.

Uyi Iredia:

A case can be made the there are other lines along which man can be divide. Even in science, supporters/opposers of a theory can be aggressive (case in point: neo-Darwinism & Lamarckism). Consider also other lines of division such as race, views on morality, aesthetics, economic systems, language etc. To that extent, singling out religion (and implying) that it is the greatest evil is a non-starter.

Sure people can be divided or classified based even on the first letter of their surnames but I'm sure you know that he is talking of something quite different.
Singling out religion I think is justified because when one takes a look at what people believe simply due to religion and the evils they do simply due to religion is simply amazing. I mean, people are happily ostracized from their own families, some are murdered due to such religious ideas.

Uyi Iredia:

Has this guy also considered that a case could be made for atheism (especially as advocated by the so-called 'new/militant atheists') is a religion ?

Do you really want to go back to this false claim that atheism is a religion? Please tell me, is theism a religion?

mazaje:

Firstly the SNG is NOT a christian advocacy group. . .What are the christian micro finance initiatives and what exactly are their impact on the lives of the average  christian Nigerian? How many people have such christian initiatives lifted out of poverty? [b]Majority of christian based educational institutions in Nigeria like high schools and universities are NOT affordable to the average Nigerians even at that they still perform and rank below the federal university on all rankings that have been published despite the exorbitant prices they charge. [/b]I agree, there are christian initiatives but their impact is very minimal or completely absent in some cases and not felt by the people. . .Compare the money that these christian charities give out to the monies the churches take and and you will see the GREAT difference. . . .People are encouraged to give to churches in Nigeria more than anything. Last time I was dragged to church by my family members cos it was a thanks giving service and I was shocked at what I was hearing. . .

I'll modify my statement on the SNG and CAN. They are better described as groups founded by Christians which promote the values you listed (i.e dedication, patriotism et al). Your subsequent statements nit-pick on the niceties & fails to grasp the point: That Christians promote & engage in hard-work. I will not just assert this but back this up using what I take to be your strongest counter-example: the emboldened point above. The said educational establishments do not by any means have the funds to give quality education at a subsidized rate: They have to strike a compromise between giving quality education in a harsh setting and establishing a fair tuition rate. To that extent, the fees these institutions charge though high are reasonable. Furthermore, they do have facilities & which rival (or possibly best) those of federal institutions, your talk of rankings is flawed to the extent that these private universities are young universities. Are you also forgetting the fact that many prestigious federal (low-cost) schools in the country where established by Christian Missionary bodies (e.g St. Gregory's, Methodist Boys High School etc). There are also a number of Christian schools in this list presumably low-cost.

mazaje:
The Nigerian Christian position is PRAYERS ALONE in most cases, that is why you MOSTLY hear about break throughs, through offering of tithes, seed sowing fasting and and prayers. . . .Its very common practice in Nigerian churches to hear about seed sowing, paying of tithes as the magic bullet to financial success. . .If Nigerians on the avarage believe in prayers more than hard work, their statements on average confirms this. . .When something happens they first thing that comes out of their mouths is lets pray for this or that. . . You don't hear about steps that are to be taken to solve problems. .  .The bible talks about prayers and hard work in some places and also talks about prayers and faith alone in other places. In the words of Jesus if you pray and believe what ever you ask for will be given to you. . .It didn't say pray and work hard, it saysjust pray and believe and what ever you ask for will be given to you. . . .So don't even start with the bible because its a book written by so many different people with different ideas and conception of who God is to them. . . .

Does the average Nigerian Christian pray, sit down & wait for God to magically drop money from the sky ? As for the emboldened point, I'll point out that 3 things:

[list]
[li]You are cherry-picking the Bible. I pointed out a part that you could read because I know that there are 2 sides of the coin. Maybe you should also realize the Bible talks of faith without works being dead (James 2:20). Even you know this, since you state that it talks of hard-work; but you create the impression that the Bible talks about hard-work, whilst emphasizing that faith only is the road to success.[/li]
[li]The Bible will necessarily contain people with differing viewpoints about God. It can be described as a collection of various instances, teachings, poems & prophesies (or proclamations, if you will).[/li]
[li]Most importantly, I referred you to a part of the Bible which hints at the fact that people can be successful without being Christians. (i.e Ecclesiastes)[/li]
[/list]

mazaje:
Many christians in Nigeria use money that is supposed to go towards the betterment of their lives to their various churches. . .Its only a person that is living in denial that will deny that fact. . . .I never said religion is the only problem we have in Nigeria, but the type of religion we practice in the country is killing the country at the same rate with corruption and tribalism and that is the fact. . . . Extremist religious practice is NOT encouraged in Israel because about 40% of the population is atheist, and a greater percentage are secular extremist are very few and have no impact on the country as a whole. . . .Kuwait is a homogeneous country when it comes to religion and tribe so their case is quite different. . . .

That's your bias. You do not agree to how they use their money, the same way I can, ad arguendo, SMH at atheists who donate to RDFRS instead of using it to better their lives. Mr Mazaje, Religious fanaticism is the problem we're dealing with, not religion, in fact, religion is the not the fundamental cause of the Nigerian problem. Such a problem is best attributed to structural deficiencies in our system of government, due to (deliberate & inadvertent) mistakes made in the transition of power from the British to nascent Nigerians. Also note, that extremist religious practice is equally not encouraged in Nigeria, and note that, Kuwait is not a homogeneous country, apart from Islam there are Sikhs, Buddhists, Hindus & Christians who (from what I've read) live peacefully with the restrictions imposed on their religion. Their case is also not different because theirs is an example of a religious nation. They're manifestly not secular.

mazaje:
What has the fact that Nigerians came out to protest an insensitive move that will destroy their lives and send them more into poverty got to do with religion?. . .Christians and muslims came out to fight for their survival which was something they had to do. . . .Where were the religious leaders during the fuel subsidy saga, most where in the churches and mosques telling people to pray for the leaders. . . .

SMH. You're free to confirm what I previously wrote: I submit to you that you'll ignore this question or present the canard that their actions stemmed despite religion..  Your answer here confirms this. First, you presented no answer; then, you pushed on with the claim that it just had to do with their survival. This directly contradicts your claim that: instead of people fighting for their rights from the very corrupt and insensitive political elites people are encouraged to be passive and told to pray for the country and commit their leaders into the hands of God to touch them and change them. The point is that they protested. Your position requires that they sleep in their churches/mosques/shrines etc & leave everything to God which is clearly not what they did.

Did you conveniently forget that, my pastor, Tunde Bakare was being mocked whilst in the heat of things ? Are you also ignoring possibly less-known instances of pastors helping. I doubt that you would even be convinced of their sincerity if the likes of Adeboye, Oyedepo, Oyakhilome [i]et al [/i]protest in sack-clothes.

mazaje:
Pls what is the percentage of inter faith marriages in Nigeria? It is still an anomaly and considered an abomination by MOST Nigerians, very few people inter marry across religious lines. . .You talk about inter marriages but fail to talk about[b] people that have severed relationships with their family for converting to other religions or for even intermarrying across religious line. . .Its very common all over Nigeria on both sides. . .[/b]

The percentage of inter-faith marriages is irrelevant. What is relevant is that in we see it occur. Why don't you consider it as a case of religion not precluding unity ? I agree with the emboldened statement. However, in Akintoba's case we have a clear case of atheism seperating family. Atheist parents can, in principle, do the same to religious children.

mazaje:
And religion is presently about to destroy the country, no?. . . .BH is a religious movement that wants to force their religion on the whole country, which might eventual led to the destruction of the nation as we know if it not properly managed, no?. . . .

Religious fanaticism, yes ! And religion is a broad term that applies to more than belief in deities, no ? Boko Haram is an extremist group which not only maims Christians but Muslims as well.

mazaje:
Religion is NOT the only problem Nigeria is facing, we have very high level of corruption, tribalism, lack of patriotism greed and insensitivity to one another as Nigerians, but the problem that religion is causing is at par with corruption and tribalism.The type of passive religion practiced in Nigeria that believes that God will slove al the problems the nation is facing is killing the country and making the people lazy and complacent. . .Let me give you an example. . .Many Nigerian muslims pledge more allegiance to Saudi Arabia than to Nigeria as such when America invaded a muslim nation some years ago riots broke out in some northern parts of Nigeria and christians were killed by muslims and their properties looted and destroyed. . .

I hope you know too that proselytizing of atheism (or secular humanism if you will) will also add to Nigeria's problems simply given the fact that it is opposed to 'religion'. I repeat, saying religion is destroying the country is flawed for these reasons:

i) It is based on a misunderstanding on the concept of religion which is not solely reducible to a belief in deities or sacred texts. Religion is much broader than that.

ii) It fails to properly state what is being meant. Certainly, Akintoba can't say Taoism, Buddhism or FSM is destroying the country, and yet, these are religions aren't they. To correct such, I presented a better way of articulating his point.

thehomer:

That depends on how close your knowledge of the topic matches the available scientific evidence and a willingness to accept correction.

To the extent, the logic behind the evidence (keeping in mind the definition of evidence I use on that thread) cannot be faulted. I would gladly accept correction. Can we proceed ? And how do you wish we do so ?

thehomer:
But there are pastors who live like kings and have private jets. How did he link this to causing corruption etc?

I have no answer to this. But I do have a question which underlines my claim: Why does he mention it ?

thehomer:
Yes I do think it is one of the great evils that currently plagues man.

What definition of religion are you working with ?

thehomer:
An observation of things people do for no reason other than religion. There is this saying by Baron Acton which goes "judge talent at its best and character at its worst." When people point at religion claiming that it has some good bits, they forget that we judge how good something or someone is by assessing what its worst characters are. And of course the religious texts themselves give us the reason for the severe judgment. Until those texts are re-written, I see no reason to adjust my stance.

Not all religions have sacred texts e.g Unitarian Universalism, ancestral worship & Ifism. You're most likely referring to 'The Big Three'. What 'worst characters' are you alluding to ?

thehomer:
Sure people can be divided or classified based even on the first letter of their surnames but I'm sure you know that he is talking of something quite different.
Singling out religion I think is justified because when one takes a look at what people believe simply due to religion and the evils they do simply due to religion is simply amazing. I mean, people are happily ostracized from their own families, some are murdered due to such religious ideas.

What's different about the case of religion ? Ostracism can, in principle, be done in a secular context. Also note that people can also be murdered for other reasons such as for food (as in cannibalism), for jealousy, on the basis of their race or even just for the sake of adventure as the case of serial killers like Ted Bundy. The point is murder is not solely predicated on religious reasons.

thehomer:
Do you really want to go back to this false claim that atheism is a religion? Please tell me, is theism a religion?

It isn't a false claim. If it is, what's your reason ? Theism isn't a religion, it's best described as a philosophy.

Okay I think I know this Akintoba guy

Interesting.

[size=4pt]Maybe he's even on Nairaland[/size]

Going by his statement that Religion divides man from man atheism is a religion. After all, we see that it is the cause of separation between him & his family.