Well, I never agreed with the claims about "oldest kingdom in Nigeria", but I think if you want to nip this thing in the bud, you would have to write your own books and articles specifically countering this. Anyway, no professional scholars actually working in West African archaeology and history take this "oldest kingdom" stuff seriously or even mention it.

There is no evidence that Nri was the "first kingdom" in Nigeria, but what some people are claiming (although perhaps not with the appropriate language or wording) is that Nri is the most ancient of the "surviving" kingdoms, which is a far more plausible claim, except that it assumes that the limited extent of Nigerian archaeology so far is definitive and it ignores the possibility that other still extant/"surviving" kingdoms, in Igboland or elsewhere in Nigeria, existed but were not bronze casters at that time. So we are actually somewhat in agreement, it was just that I disagreed with certain specific statements you made.

I think if we were to agree totally life would be boring.

I am not sure that even "most ancient" surviving Kingdom is plausible on the bases of bronzes alone.

That is akin to archaeologists in 1000 years deducing that America is more ancient than Sudan or India on the basis of Older train carriages,rail lines or Nuclear warheads,tarred roads etc


Certainly before there was a Benin empire there was a kingdom the archaelogical evidence for this is no less compelling(VAGUE) than Nri's whichever you  prefer

But we have a wriiten account of the KanemBorno Empire; GIRGAM, which I mentioned before and this is the most reliable .

Oral traditions are credible sources of information particularly when they reference recognized collateral events or contemporary Kingdoms /states in this regard there was little to build on and there were no oral traditions even of those bronzes or that they ever possesed those skills or who it was they obtained the glass beads from.
The culture of relating by oral traditions is of greater significance in different peoples e,g the arabs elevated it  to a great art form long before the Quran and now there are several Hafizes who recite the entire Quran from memory.The oral traditions of Benin were considered quite credible and make claims for the 7th century. Experts in the field have techniques for testing these traditions

Nevertheless If one can deduce the existence of Kingdoms from Nri bronzes one most certainly can from Nok figurines

aribisala0, thanks for sharing that info about GIRGAM, I hadn't come across that before. From what I've gleaned its very important and I wonder why the media seems to have been silent about it; perhaps because it shows a very long Afro-Asiatic king list and points to migration from the region of the Levant/Mesopotamia.

i suppose the real reason is Kanembu people don't own much of the media

amor4ce:

Personally, I have not accepted the claims by some about the age of Igbo Ukwu and Nri as I see such as an[b] attempted, biased and maybe narcissistic desire to claim pre-eminence[/b]. What about the old Sukur kingdom or Koma or Sungbo Eredo or the nations/kingdoms that fled away from the Fulani to the mountains?

Not to pick on you, but something about the bolded strikes me. When you imply that the Northern and/or the Yoruba must be the oldest kingdoms in Nigeria rather than Igbo (per your reference to the Sukur Kingdom and Sungbo Eredo) , do you have an attempted, biased and maybe narcissistic desire to claim pre-eminence for your tribe (I'm guessing that you're Yoruba)? Or do you excuse yourself from this possibility?

Please, enlighten me. It seems that Igbos are held to high moral standards that everyone else in Nigeria is exempt from.

DO WE KNOW FOR A FACT THAT THE IGBOS ONLY LIVED IN THE EAST OF NIGERIA THROUGHOUT THEIR HISTORY?

OR THAT THOSE WHO LIVED IN NIGERIA 3000 YEARS AGO ARE STILL REPRESENTED IN NIGERIA TODAY AT ALL?


We are trying to have an intelligent discussion here

Most people are bored of this Victim Complex

Nnenna1:

Not to pick on you, but something about the bolded strikes me. When you imply that the Northern and/or the Yoruba must be the oldest kingdoms in Nigeria rather than Igbo (per your reference to the Sukur Kingdom and Sungbo Eredo) , do you have an attempted, biased and maybe narcissistic desire to claim pre-eminence for your tribe (I'm guessing that you're Yoruba)? Or do you excuse yourself from this possibility?

Please, enlighten me. It seems that Igbos are held to high moral standards that everyone else in Nigeria is exempt from.

While I have not stated authoritatively that Nri is the oldest kingdom, I think the aim of some of these people is more or less trying to undermine the achievement of Igbos. Notice that most Edo people do not belong to this class of facts and history distorters.

A thread was once opened on Nairaland that Igbos do not go to school and when records from JAMB and NYSC revealed that Imo State is far ahead of others in both enrollment and graduation, some people started questioning the credibility of JAMB statistics. Some even claimed Igbos were altering it.LMFAO!

They ended it by dismissing our education standards. Is that not funny?

yea we know everyone is Jealous of Igbos

aribisala0:

DO WE  KNOW FOR A FACT THAT THE IGBOS ONLY LIVED IN THE EAST OF NIGERIA THROUGHOUT THEIR HISTORY?

OR THAT THOSE WHO LIVED IN NIGERIA 3000 YEARS AGO ARE STILL REPRESENTED IN NIGERIA TODAY AT ALL?


We are trying to have an intelligent discussion here

Most people are bored of this Victim Complex

The bolded ( or variants of it) is starting to sound like a broken record.

If you didn't understand my simple questions and why it was addressed (including the sarcasm there) then you should have asked you know? 

Ok, I will be more direct - this has little to do with Igbo, Yoruba and Nigerian history in and of themselves and more to do with the hypocrisy behind this:

Quote from: amor4ce on February 22, 2012, 09:26 PM

Personally, I have not accepted the claims by some about the age of Igbo Ukwu and Nri as I see such as an attempted, biased and maybe narcissistic desire to claim pre-eminence. What about the old Sukur  kingdom [i.e. Northern history] or Koma or Sungbo Eredo [Yoruba History] or the nations/kingdoms that fled away from the Fulani to the mountains?

Amor4ce = Most Likely Yoruba.

My Questions - is he exempt from being [in his words] biased and maybe narcissistic? Why?

Very Simple.

Nnenna1:

The bolded ( or variants of it) is starting to sound like a broken record.

If you didn't understand my simple questions and why it was addressed (including the sarcasm there) then you should have asked you know? 

Ok, I will be more direct - this has little to do with Igbo, Yoruba and Nigerian history in and of themselves and more to do with the hypocrisy behind this:

Quote from: amor4ce on February 22, 2012, 09:26 PM
Amor4ce = Most Likely Yoruba.

My Questions - is he exempt from being [in his words] biased and maybe narcissistic? Why?

Very Simple.

Exactly the same here !!!
The sentiment is reciprocal and equally felt.
We are fed up to the back teeth of the VICTIM COMPLEX!!!

People see the world through the prism of baggage.

Give it a rest !
If we all occupy the same country it is not far fetched to presume at some point long ago we had common ancestors. I certainly thing so as do many linguists and other scholars who have proposed theories that are in the literature.

Of course different people can take what they want from this exercise ;
a competition for pre=emninebce or whatever they like. Once you start using words like hypocrisy you invite personal attacks and insults. I hope to have a civil discussion but perhaps I am overly optimistic

aribisala0:

Exactly the same here !!!
The sentiment is reciprocal and equally felt.
We are fed up to the back teeth of the VICTIM COMPLEX!!!

Now that you have gotten the last word - I'll like to hear from the person who I addressed this question to. Thank you.

Anyway I like Igbo girls maybe you and I can start our own kingdom kwa??

But I must be the king O!
what shalll we call it?

suggest a name

Nnenna1:

Not to pick on you, but something about the bolded strikes me. When you imply that the Northern and/or the Yoruba must be the oldest kingdoms in Nigeria rather than Igbo (per your reference to the Sukur Kingdom and Sungbo Eredo) , do you have an attempted, biased and maybe narcissistic desire to claim pre-eminence for your tribe (I'm guessing that you're Yoruba)? Or do you excuse yourself from this possibility?

Please, enlighten me. It seems that Igbos are held to high moral standards that everyone else in Nigeria is exempt from.

Thank you! That right there ended any thought that one may have had to help contribute to the thread. The bias came out the gate, so why bother?
If it had been I believe there are older kingdoms in Nigeria that would have been more acceptable.

Abagworo:


While I have not stated authoritatively that Nri is the oldest kingdom, I think the aim of some of these people is more or less trying to undermine the achievement of Igbos. Notice that most Edo people do not belong to this class of facts and history distorters.

A thread was once opened on Nairaland that Igbos do not go to school and when records from JAMB and NYSC revealed that Imo State is far ahead of others in both enrollment and graduation, some people started questioning the credibility of JAMB statistics. Some even claimed Igbos were altering it.LMFAO!

They ended it by dismissing our education standards. Is that not funny?

That's exactly what I said that, with that kind of tone is the person insinuating that Igbo people bribed the archeologists to lie on their behalf?

The purpose of this thread is to forcefully dispossess all hardworking Igbo men of their hard earned mony and women

Nnenna1:

Not to pick on you, but something about the bolded strikes me. When you imply that the Northern and/or the Yoruba must be the oldest kingdoms in Nigeria rather than Igbo (per your reference to the Sukur Kingdom and Sungbo Eredo) , do you have an attempted, biased and maybe narcissistic desire to claim pre-eminence for your tribe (I'm guessing that you're Yoruba)? Or do you excuse yourself from this possibility?

Please, enlighten me. It seems that Igbos are held to high moral standards that everyone else in Nigeria is exempt from.

I haven't implied that Sukur and Sungbo are/were the oldest, neither have I mentioned or implied same concerning the Yoruba or any other. My opinion concerning the topic is that the claims of some Igbo in this regard are spurious and illogical as the OP has even shown with the glaring example of GIRGAM and mine of Ikom which the supporters of Igbo pre-eminence have not countered/acknowledged. Isn't Borno part of Nigeria? Added to that is the obvious lack of comparison with dates of mountainous Nigerian nationalities (e.g. Koma, perhaps Sukur) and many others. Similarly, no denial has been put forth that some Igbo migrated from Edo as has been mentioned on other Igbo Nairaland threads. Could it be that this could deflate claims about the age of Nri?

Did you all know that the people of Kebbi are Assyrian refugees who fled their homeland around 600BC from Babylonian conquest and then settled in Kebbi state? Did you know that their first king is known as the person of Sargon of Akkad? You can check out their history if you want to. Try

[url=http://dierklange.com/pdf/Kebbi-Assyrien_Anthropos%202009_359-382.pdf]An Assyrian Successor State in West Africa: The Ancestral Kings of Kebbi as Ancient Near Eastern Rulers (by Dierk Lange)[/url]

You can do better.

If we leave the out to get Igbos idea aside for a bit,

I believe that there is good reason to believe there are indeed other Igbo states that predate Nri and probably many now extinct states predating any of those that now survive in modern Nigeria i.e Hausa,Igbo ,Benin etc

Okay

Permit me to borrow from the Yoruba. There names of some Yoruba towns mentioned in the Odu Ifa that seem not to exist today, some were destroyed during the intra-tribal wars. This much is supported by various oral accounts. Perhaps the Igbo have similar oral accounts of some now-extinct Igbo towns, if at all any.

***edited***

  I laff in Ancient Laughter

I am very sure she is here on NL notice any pattern

You disagree with  her or challenge her a nd she labels you ( You are racist ! You hate Igbos!!)  Sound familiar??

aribisala0:

  I laff in Ancient Laughter

I am very sure she is here on NL notice any pattern

You disagree with  her or challenge her a nd she labels you ( You are racist ! You hate Igbos!!)  Sound familiar??

You got it wrong. I think Prof Acholonu is on Nairaland with her real name and identity. I've once argued with her about one book. But just like I said there is nothing that can be proven as per unwritten history that will be totally acceptable. So this thread will not yield your desired knowledge.

Abagworo you presume to know my objective and clearly you do not!

Just like you ,many others have several IDs
Let me spell it out

I DO NOT BELIEVE ANYONE  KNOWS THE OLDEST KINGDOM IN NIGERIA

As such anyone claiming it it this one or that one is wrong; mistaken,or deliberately  mischievous

aribisala0:

Abagworo you presume to know my objective and clearly you do not!

Just like you ,many others have several IDs
Let me spell it out

I DO NOT BELIEVE ANYONE  KNOWS THE OLDEST KINGDOM IN NIGERIA

As such anyone claiming it it this one or that one is wrong; mistaken,or deliberately  mischievous

Does anyone know if the bible is real? Does anyone know when man 1st appeared on earth? Does anyone know the actual essence of our existence? Does anyone?


No one knows but we guess based on available work surrounded by more guesses and guesses and guesses till it all becomes kind of fictitious. Aribisala0 just forget past and move on. Make sure you record your day to day activities on video so that you won't repeat the mistakes of your forefathers.

I dislike unwanted advice.Contribute to the topic if you have any contributions.
How people choose to use or misuse their time is entirely up to them. This nihilistic,we might as well not bother doing anything since it is all pointless approach does not appeal to me .So we do not lose track

Our purpose is to revise the claim that Nri is the Oldest kingdom in Nigeria [/b]with the more accurate assertion that [b]there is not enough information available to make such a claim.

I wonder what your purpose is

Haa! Dem no wan confess?

wayo wayo wayo wayo wayo wayo wayo wayo wayo wayo wayo wayo wayo wayo wayo wayo wayo wayo wayo wayo wayo wayo wayo wayo wayo wayo wayo wayo wayo wayo wayo wayo wayo wayo wayo wayo wayo wayo wayo wayo wayo wayo wayo wayo wayo wayo wayo wayo wayo wayo wayo wayo wayo wayo wayo wayo wayo wayo wayo wayo wayo wayo wayo wayo wayo wayo wayo wayo wayo wayo wayo wayo wayo wayo wayo wayo wayo wayo wayo wayo wayo wayo wayo wayo wayo wayo wayo wayo wayo wayo wayo wayo wayo wayo wayo wayo wayo wayo wayo wayo wayo wayo wayo wayo wayo wayo wayo wayo wayo wayo wayo wayo wayo wayo wayo wayo wayo wayo wayo wayo wayo wayo wayo wayo wayo wayo wayo wayo wayo wayo wayo wayo wayo wayo wayo wayo wayo wayo

Honestly if there is good evidence to back the claim I am willing to accept it and my object is not really to ridicule or rile anyone but it is a claim no different from

"Ijaw is the oldest language in Nigeria"

very categorical and momentous and therefore requiring a high standard of evidence

To me, such claims point to the validity of a certain stereotype associated with that ethnic nationality. This particular Nri claim seems to be like looking for a reason, even if wayo, to justify the urge to dominate and be seen as dominant. Similar bogus claims were also put forth from some of them that they are one with the present Jews of Israel whereas it is clearly written that those Jews are of the synagogue of satan (Rev 2:9, 3:9). Remember that many, including Dr Azikiwe, encourage themselves to dominate instead of living peacefully with others.

The people of Kebbi have a list of kings dating back to Sargon of Akkad and the time of the fall of the Assyrian empire. If any Igbo kingdom is the oldest the Igbo people can offer momentous evidence with a list of kings.

Actually I am NOT saying an Igbo kingdom is not the oldest. It may well be!Though at the moment no one knows and it is dishonest to claim certainty.

If indeed it is an Igbo kingdom that is the oldest there may be other candidates than NRI

Finally I dont believe OK status confers any preminence as has been the subject of earlier polemic
I also believe that Igbos along with many other southern groups have common ancestors

notice how it seems they could not defend those dates

see this

https://www.nairaland.com/409662/similarity-between-bini-igbo/2

Suggestion, get a copy of the Book of Jasher (referred to in the 2 Book of Samuel) and search (ctrl + f) for Esau/Edom and replace with Igbo. You'ld notice a trend that has continued till now.

It has been said that the first oba of Benin was an Igbo man that was angry with his Igbo family. His name, Oba Eweka (1180). Eweka (Iweka) in Igbo means anger abounds. Many believe the king that they found at Igbo Ukwu was oba eweka's father (Eri). Also, it has been said that oba Eweka went to war with his Igbo family (kingdom) which led to the destruction of the kingdom. After oba Eweka won the war, he migrated west and married a Yoruba woman. Many are unaware that the name "Oba" is also an Igbo Ozo title.

Oba eweka's brothers were Agulu(oldest), Nri, Attah(igala) & Igbo. Oba(Edo) was the fourth among the siblings. There father was Eri. Eri can be found in the bible among with his two younger brothers who also migrated to southeastern Nigeria from Egypt. There names was Aroli(arochukwu) & Areli (numbers 26:16-17). Till to date there is a town in Anambra state called Agulueri, named after Eri first son Agulu. I attached a photo of the lineage. Southeastern Nigeria is the land of the lost Jews who fled egypt. Hope you learned something. Including those in Benin who bear Igbo(political name) last names such as: Okoro, Ugo, Osakwe, osadebe, echejille etc.

It's history bro! Those are not Yoruba names

Also, Igbo Ukwu bronze artifacts are centuries older than ife. Archaeologists claim they go back as far as the 9th century